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Thread: BSc - in Homeopathy?

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    Re: Finally - a Homeopathy website for Barry

    Homeopathy in the news again.
    This article
    The House of Commons science and technology committee said using public money on the highly diluted remedies could not be justified.
    The cross-party group said there was no evidence beyond a placebo effect, when a patient gets better because of their belief that the treatment works.
    But manufacturers and supporters of homeopathy disputed the report, saying the MPs had ignored important evidence.
    Some £4m a year is spent on homeopathy by the NHS, helping to fund four homeopathic hospitals and numerous prescriptions.
    £4m a year - 4 specific homeopathic hospitals ? What important evidence do the homeopathic manufacturers refer to?

    Robert Wilson, of the British Association of Homeopathic Manufacturers, said he was "disappointed" by the findings.
    He said the MPs had ignored evidence that homeopathy was effective.
    "There is good evidence that homeopathy works, for example in animals and babies, neither of which experience placebo effects."
    So it works in babies thus proving it can't be a placebo affect.
    I take it he doesn't mean this evidence of affectiveness with babies, but I can't find any evidence FOR homeopathic remedies in babies. I can only find James Randis page here that has a FAQ question that answers it. Is there any evidence for homeopathy that is reliable? Is the committee right to look to ban all money going toward homeopathic medicine? Why is the BBC giving both sides of the story equal weight here?

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bailey View Post
    Yeah - and to be fair, they're not exactly from the top rank of universities either - university of Central Lancaster?

    But this is a consequence of Labour's dumbass decision to send the world and his wife to university (the 50% target) - it means that you get, shall we say, a certain amount of differentiation between different degrees and different universities.
    Totally agree. They shouldn't have got rid of degrees at 'proper' universities and the old polys which were good at doing vocational/non-degree further education.

    Oh, and it was University of Central Lancashire which is the old Preston poly (I went to the proper Lancaster uni).

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    Re: Finally - a Homeopathy website for Barry

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    So it works in babies thus proving it can't be a placebo affect.
    I take it he doesn't mean this evidence of affectiveness with babies, but I can't find any evidence FOR homeopathic remedies in babies. I can only find James Randis page here that has a FAQ question that answers it. Is there any evidence for homeopathy that is reliable? Is the committee right to look to ban all money going toward homeopathic medicine? Why is the BBC giving both sides of the story equal weight here?
    I is so upsetting to read about this kind of thing

    I'm sure that a committed homeopath will be able to explain what went wrong. But, of course, it will all be mumbo-jumbo.

    Let's not beat about the bush. Homeopathy is completely ineffective. But, for some reason some people put great faith in it. It strikes me that homeopathy is worse than harmless. It's OK for adults to choose homeopathy in place of effective medicines - those people will die of ignorance. Let's hope the Darwin effect works and it happens before they can breed

    Joking aside, failing to treat a child with an illness is neglect. We have a system in the UK to deal with victims of neglect. Any parent who insists their child does not receive effective treatment for an illness should have that child cared for by the state. And the state should not be hoodwinked by parents who claim they are treating their child's illness with a homeopathic remedy. It is not a remedy. My concern is that certain members of the state have also been hoodwinked.

    My advice would be to ask NICE to review homeopathic remedies. They will find that there is no effect. The next step is to make it illegal to peddle homeopathic remedies. I can't think why this hasn't already taken place

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    explaining homeopathy.

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    I highly recommend Ben Goldacre's Bad Science Blog, Column and book. He lays out the actual science behind homoeopathy in some detail. To summarise:
    • There is no evidence that homoeopathy is superior to a placebo
    • Most studies into homoeopathic methods are flawed; but it would be relatively easy to scientifically test claims about homoeopathic remedies
    • In the dilutions that homoeopathy is delivered, it is highly unlikely that any of the 'active' substance would actually be in any dosage
    • There is no known physical mechanism by which homoeopathic treatments could actually help anyone
    • A number of homoeopaths recommend health measures that are actively dangerous - for example, not inoculating against malaria
    Based on these facts - and they really are facts - there is no scientific basis on which homoeopathy can be considered an effective medical treatment. If anything, it's dangerous.

    It's also interesting to read some of the tactics adopted by the homoeopathic industry to try and discredit people who attempt to objective evaluate the evidence.

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I highly recommend Ben Goldacre's Bad Science Blog, Column and book. He lays out the actual science behind homoeopathy in some detail. To summarise:
    • There is no evidence that homoeopathy is superior to a placebo
    The problem being that placebos are pretty effective in some cases.

    I've linked to it before, but Ben Goldacre did a Radio 4 programme about placebos in 2008. All sorts of strange things happen - for instance, placebos in the branded boxes of well advertised medicines work better than identical placebos in plain packaging.
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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    The problem being that placebos are pretty effective in some cases.
    I don't see how that is a problem. Placebo, by definition, is inert. Any effect that comes from a placebo does not come from the placebo itself, but from the patients interpretation of the placebo and a bunch of psychosomatic effects.

    You're right that these can be substantial and very powerful. Another part of the book discusses placebos in quite a bit of detail. He talks about different colours for pills, placebo operations, and so on. There is some pretty amazing stuff in that chapter (as an aside, this is one thing that bugs me about the whole new age crap - the stuff science has shown us is far more cool and fascinating than any of this made up garbage).

    In medicine, any treatment that does not out-perform the placebo is at best inert and at worst actively harmful. If we take a common drug - aspirin. Aspirin has been shown by a huge number of studies to be more effective that a placebo in reducing pain. That doesn't mean the placebo effect isn't there (it almost certainly is). It just means the drug has an additional effect over and above the placebo. This is the litmus test that any new treatment must pass - to be better than either a placebo or the best available alternative treatment.

    Homoeopathy fails this test with flying colours. You would be better off drinking a glass of water than taking a homoeopathic remedy.

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    I don't see how that is a problem. Placebo, by definition, is inert. Any effect that comes from a placebo does not come from the placebo itself, but from the patients interpretation of the placebo and a bunch of psychosomatic effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    You would be better off drinking a glass of water than taking a homeopathic remedy.
    But actually the placebo effect means some people will get better from the homeopathic 'remedy' than from a glass of water, thus giving credence to homeopathy.

    That's what I meant by it being a problem. The power and weirdness of the placebo effect (which I agree is totally fascinating) helps spread nonsense like homeopathy.
    Last edited by DavidY; 23rd-February-2010 at 09:48 AM.
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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    I noticed on the news last night that one of the cuts in NHS funding is likely to be homeeopathy.

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxine View Post
    I noticed on the news last night that one of the cuts in NHS funding is likely to be homeeopathy.
    er...that'd be the reason for this thread resurfacing wouldn't it

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    But actually the placebo effect means some people will get better from the homeopathic 'remedy' than from a glass of water, thus giving credence to homeopathy.
    Not in scientific terms it doesn't. Not even close. That is the point of science to be able to identify a beneficial effect. To confuse the fact that some people get better receiving a homoeopathic remedy with scientific evidence is the sort of nonsense that homoeopath's thrive on. The fact a university can countenance a 'science' degree in homoeopathy is really something to be ashamed of.

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    er...that'd be the reason for this thread resurfacing wouldn't it
    Missed that bit really should read all a thread not just the last few posts

    Actually my Trust has a large cut of funding imposed for next year so I may have more time to indulge in the forum
    Last edited by Maxine; 23rd-February-2010 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Afterthought

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Me View Post
    But actually the placebo effect means some people will get better from the homeopathic 'remedy' than from a glass of water, thus giving credence to homeopathy.
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    Not in scientific terms it doesn't. Not even close. That is the point of science to be able to identify a beneficial effect.
    Yes, but even in scientific terms, the placebo effect means that a placebo treatment (or homeopathy) can be shown to be beneficial compared to no placebo (as described in the works of Dr Goldacre).

    This is what I meant by giving credence - people feel better and that makes them believe in the treatment.
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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Yes, but even in scientific terms, the placebo effect means that a placebo treatment (or homeopathy) can be shown to be beneficial compared to no placebo (as described in the works of Dr Goldacre).
    No, it can't. It's this sort of mis-understanding that;s so wrong.

    If the effect of a homoeopathic treatment is less than or equal to the effect of a placebo then you are demonstrating the effect of the placebo. You are similarly showing that the homoeopathic treatment has no absolutely no effect.

    This is a very simple, black and white issue. That people mis-interpret the evidence and think that the positive effect is due to the homoeopathy not the placebo effect - is very bad science. It's a claim that anyone with even the vaguest knowledge of science should categorically reject.

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    If the effect of a homoeopathic treatment is less than or equal to the effect of a placebo then you are demonstrating the effect of the placebo.
    Yes, absolutely.
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    You are similarly showing that the homoeopathic treatment has no absolutely no effect.
    No it doesn't show that - because the placebo and the homeopathic 'treatment' do both have an effect - that effect being the difference between a placebo and no treatment at all.

    Real people in the real world have improved response to symptoms from placebo treatments (and homeopathic ones). That's how homeopaths continue to sell the stuff.

    Having dug out the link for my earlier post, I've just been listening to the Ben Goldacre Radio 4 programme again. There's lots of interesting stuff in there - for instance at 23 minutes in to the first programme link there's something showing that placebo treatments for Parkinson's disease can show demonstrable changes in brain chemicals which mirror the effect of real drugs.
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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    - for instance at 23 minutes in to the first programme link there's something showing that placebo treatments for Parkinson's disease can show demonstrable changes in brain chemicals which mirror the effect of real drugs.
    There's plenty of evidence that our imagination can cause actual chemical changes in our body. If we imagine a placebo has an effect there is a chance that there will be an actual effect.

    Consider something as simple as blushing. Someone can make you blush over the phone. Sildenifil can also make you blush. One is in the mind the other blush is caused by the drug.

    I'm afraid that homeopathy will be with us for many years to come. It's because there's enough people out there who believe it works. As an example of how well it works, I was recently working on a treatment for major depression. Placebo was effective in about one in three patients and the active drug was effective in two out of three patients. That means you'd be able to show a clinical effect in thirty three out of every one hundred patients given a homeopathic cure! And the side-effect profile for the inert treatment is much better!

    This placebo effect is what homeopathy is demonstrating. One part of me says that there should be a branch of medicine that harnesses the placebo effect for the benefit of patients. However, another part of me says there already is such a branch of medicine - it's called homeopathy

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    No it doesn't show that - because the placebo and the homeopathic 'treatment' do both have an effect - that effect being the difference between a placebo and no treatment at all.
    As I said originally - the evidence indicates that difference is zero. If you have any other evidence, please let me know. If no-one else has published it, I'll submit it to Lancet and make myself famous.

    As I said originally, the test for any medical treatment is does it offer a more significant benefit that the placebo (or the best known alternative treatment). In the case of homoeopathy, the robust evidence shows that there is no significant improvement over and above the benefits of a placebo. Once again, if you have robust evidence to the contrary, you would be the first and I suggest you do something with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This placebo effect is what homeopathy is demonstrating.
    Sometimes. Unfortunately, it's also linked with some advice that's incredibly bad. Mostly that advice is to disregard treatments with proven efficacy in favour of unproven treatments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    One part of me says that there should be a branch of medicine that harnesses the placebo effect for the benefit of patients.
    All branches of medicine harness the placebo effect. All treatments are likely to include a placebo effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    However, another part of me says there already is such a branch of medicine - it's called homeopathy
    If that were all it did, I'd be less concerned with it. However, it does more - and much of it is bad.

    This is a slippery slope. If you want to know where it can lead, read up on the Aids policy in South Africa. Reliance on unscientific medicine killed approximately 300,000 people.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...s-south-africa
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_denialism
    http://www.skepdic.com/aidsdenial.html
    Last edited by geoff332; 23rd-February-2010 at 12:53 PM.

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidY View Post
    Yes, absolutely.No it doesn't show that - because the placebo and the homeopathic 'treatment' do both have an effect - that effect being the difference between a placebo and no treatment at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    As I said originally - the evidence indicates that difference is zero. If you have any other evidence, please let me know. If no-one else has published it, I'll submit it to Lancet and make myself famous.
    I don't think we're disagreeing on the difference between placebos & homeopathy.

    What I'm saying is that placebo treatments (and therefore homeopathy, 'cos it's the same thing) do have beneficial effects compared to no treatments at all, because of the placebo effect; and this is why homeopathy gains credence with people who've tried it.

    The point being that "no treatment" is not the same as placebo 'treatment', because of the placebo effect.

    Ben Goldacre's Placebo Effect programme already has loads of stuff about this - and he's pretty famous already, so I don't think either of us are likely to oust him.
    Last edited by DavidY; 23rd-February-2010 at 12:56 PM.
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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by geoff332 View Post
    As I said originally - the evidence indicates that difference is zero. If you have any other evidence, please let me know. If no-one else has published it, I'll submit it to Lancet and make myself famous.
    I think David is saying that there is evidence that placebo has a greater effect than no treatment at all. But please don't ask me for a bibliography - I'm sure there must be studies with 3 groups, treated, placebo and untreated. But I can't think of any off the top of my head.

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    Re: BSc - in Homeopathy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    I think David is saying that there is evidence that placebo has a greater effect than no treatment at all.
    Thanks Andy, you summed it up better than I did
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    But please don't ask me for a bibliography - I'm sure there must be studies with 3 groups, treated, placebo and untreated. But I can't think of any off the top of my head.
    Here's more info in New Scientist on the Parkinson's Disease treatment story - I assume it's the one from Ben Goldacre's programme.
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