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Thread: Sabotage!

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    Registered User Mythical's Avatar
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    Sabotage!

    Ok, I can't get my head round the concept (probably not a bad thing, since I'm really new to this dancing malarkey) But HOW do you sabotage, without leading? Is sabotaging and back leading the same thing?

    It hadn't crossed my mind, until I dance with this guy last night, who was just....damn well cheeky! I had to follow and think "If I were a better dancer, you'd be so going down!"

    So what IS this sabotaging thing I keep hearing so much about? When do I get to learn this??

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mythical View Post
    Ok, I can't get my head round the concept (probably not a bad thing, since I'm really new to this dancing malarkey) But HOW do you sabotage, without leading? Is sabotaging and back leading the same thing?

    It hadn't crossed my mind, until I dance with this guy last night, who was just....damn well cheeky! I had to follow and think "If I were a better dancer, you'd be so going down!"

    So what IS this sabotaging thing I keep hearing so much about? When do I get to learn this??
    Depends - sabotage and hijacking are used interchangably to mean two different things.

    One is where the follow actually takes over leading and the leader switches to become the follow so for example the lady would now be leading first moves etc.

    The other is where the follow goes "Nup, not doing that " and either just blocks the move or does something else entirely.

    Which do you mean?

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    Registered User Mythical's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Depends - sabotage and hijacking are used interchangably to mean two different things.

    One is where the follow actually takes over leading and the leader switches to become the follow so for example the lady would now be leading first moves etc.

    The other is where the follow goes "Nup, not doing that " and either just blocks the move or does something else entirely.

    Which do you mean?
    The second one...but with style!

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mythical View Post
    The second one...but with style!
    Aha. Well as far as I'm aware you won't be taught it in class. There are workshops on it, those they seem to be few and far between. Last year's Storm dvd has a workshop on it, though it just shows the moves rather than how to break / re-establish dominance if I recall correctly.

    Probably the easiest way to learn is look for someone who does it and go and ask them politely to show you a move.

    A word of warning though. Some leads think this is great fun and to be encouraged other believe 'tis an act of great Evil and should not be tolerated so be careful who you try this on in freestyle.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Depends - sabotage and hijacking are used interchangably to mean two different things.
    Both of which, it goes without saying, are Eeevil.

    Well, OK, I said it anyway.

    Hmmm.... deja vu anyone??

    Anyway...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    One is where the follow actually takes over leading and the leader switches to become the follow so for example the lady would now be leading first moves etc.
    Assuming consent, that's not sabotage, that's just transfer of lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    The other is where the follow goes "Nup, not doing that " and either just blocks the move or does something else entirely.
    Actually, that's two different things:
    • Refusing an invitation to do a move (e.g. a Pretzel or a drop) for some reason.
    • Taking the lead without consent and deciding to do something different.

    I'd suggest that of all these, only the latter is actually sabotage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    A word of warning though. Some leads think this is great fun and to be encouraged other believe 'tis an act of great Evil and should not be tolerated so be careful who you try this on in freestyle.
    Guess which camp I'm in? Go on, guess...

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mythical View Post
    It hadn't crossed my mind, until I dance with this guy last night, who was just....damn well cheeky! I had to follow and think "If I were a better dancer, you'd be so going down!"
    Also, can you explain this bit?

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Both of which, it goes without saying, are Eeevil.

    Well, OK, I said it anyway.

    Hmmm.... deja vu anyone??

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I'd suggest that of all these, only the latter is actually sabotage.
    Yeah, just to avoid confusion the examples were intended purely to sort out what Mythical was asking rather than an attempt at defining sabotage.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Guess which camp I'm in? Go on, guess...
    But it's so much fun

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Also, can you explain this bit?
    At a guess she was going to block some of his cheekier moves and instead do some stuff of her own.

    Not that this has ever happened to me.......

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    At a guess she was going to block some of his cheekier moves and instead do some stuff of her own.
    Ahhh... isn't that called a wrestling match?

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Ahhh... isn't that called a wrestling match?
    You say that like it's a bad thing

    It's probably closer to a Professional Wrestling match - the lead recognises the cue fom the follow and gives her space to do her thing. If all your leads are invitational then there's no wrestling involved, she's simply declined your invitation and decided to do something else.

    For leads who prefer the more commanding style however, then this probably isn't going to work - by happy coindence however they seem to be the ones who really don't like it so it's not a problem.

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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    A word of warning though. Some leads think this is great fun and to be encouraged other believe 'tis an act of great Evil and should not be tolerated so be careful who you try this on in freestyle.
    Ohhh I just love a creative follow with style, flair, character and an independent spirit. Although, as Ghost says, there are some leads that get frightened and cross at not being allowed to be in total control of everything during a three minute dance - bless 'em

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Ohhh I just love a creative follow with style, flair, character and an independent spirit.
    Err, yes... and...? What's that got to do with sabotage?

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Although, as Ghost says, there are some leads that get frightened and cross at not being allowed to be in total control of everything during a three minute dance - bless 'em
    I was wondering how long it'd take before I was, yet again, accused of being a Dance Fascist.

    Not long, it turns out.

    {mod}
    This thread is repeating stuff most recently covered in the "Ladies taking the initiative" thread.

    I'd like to merge this thread with that one - does anyone have any objections?
    {/mod}

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I was wondering how long it'd take before I was, yet again, accused of being a Dance Fascist.

    Not long, it turns out.
    Nobody has accused you of anything David! I certainly didn't. Don't be so fast at throwing your head through a noose that isn't actually there mate

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Nobody has accused you of anything David! I certainly didn't. Don't be so fast at throwing your head through a noose that isn't actually there mate
    I just like the feeling of martyrdom.

    Seriously, I sometimes think that there's a fundamental misunderstanding of "What Makes A Good Dancer" - we keep on hearing, from early intermediates, how a necessary part of being a good dancer is the ability to effectively wrestle the lead away from the leader.

    I would respectfully submit that it's very possible to be a great dancer without any wrestling at all - LilyB, CeeCee, ZW and Miss Conduct come to mind offhand as examples.

    Of course, it's also possible to be a great "interpretative" dancer - for example, Tazmanian Devil or Plum.

    Neither of these are "better" or "worse", they're just different paths, both equally valid.

    So assuming that "more hijacking = better dancing" - well, yes, it does get my goat.

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    Registered User killingtime's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mythical View Post
    Ok, I can't get my head round the concept (probably not a bad thing, since I'm really new to this dancing malarkey) But HOW do you sabotage, without leading? Is sabotaging and back leading the same thing?
    Backleading is different and is considered a straight up bad thing. That's basically where you anticipate the move the lead is going to do and go through the motions of that move yourself. It's bad because the leader doesn't learn to lead the move and the the leads that are leading the move (or another move that you didn't get) find you break the connection and therefore aren't really following them anymore.

    Sabotaging isn't backleading though it's more intentionally choosing to ignore the lead because you want to do something to surprise them or keep them on their toes. Some people like this, some people don't. I like it to a degree though it can depend on my mood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Aha. Well as far as I'm aware you won't be taught it in class. There are workshops on it, those they seem to be few and far between. Last year's Storm dvd has a workshop on it, though it just shows the moves rather than how to break / re-establish dominance if I recall correctly.
    The Storm class was, IMHO, rubbish. I only stayed for the first 20 minutes or so after which I escaped. They were teaching moves that were very specific sabotages to leads that I've never seen done. The chances of someone leading that move in freestyle, then the woman realising that's what is being lead and then the woman actually knowing/remembering the sabotage would be so slim I'm not sure you'd see it out of class. They also seemed to miss over the point of sabotage. Women would look at me expectingly as I just stood there to which I say "if you are planning on stealing this then you need to lead otherwise I'm just backleading you through a sabotage which sort of defeats the purpose".

    Lorna taught a much better class at the BFG that both taught the woman how to sabotage effectively (and clearly) as well as did it with simple moves (the Yo-Yo and like) that leaders tend to lead. I enjoyed that class unlike the Storm one. I even took away the followers bits a little so I could sabotage when following (rather than just forget that I'm not leading ).

    I do agree with DJ though that the ability to sabotage isn't essential, or required, on a roadmap to become a fab dancer.

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    Commercial Operator StokeBloke's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Both of which, it goes without saying, are Eeevil.
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So assuming that "more hijacking = better dancing" - well, yes, it does get my goat.
    Just as assuming that all "hijacking = Eeevil" - well, yes, gets mine

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    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Neither of these are "better" or "worse", they're just different paths, both equally valid.
    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    I do agree with DJ though that the ability to sabotage isn't essential, or required, on a roadmap to become a fab dancer.
    Leading Zebra Woman through simple single steps for a track 'tis a thing of beauty.

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by StokeBloke View Post
    Just as assuming that all "hijacking = Eeevil" - well, yes, gets mine
    Hijacking = wrenching of control from someone. That's why it's called "hijacking".

    Interpretation is not Hijacking, it's interpretation.

  19. #19
    Registered User Ghost's Avatar
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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Hijacking = wrenching of control from someone. That's why it's called "hijacking".

    Interpretation is not Hijacking, it's interpretation.
    Ok seriously can you imagine Taz or Sparkles wrenching control from me?

    It really is just recognising that they can decline the invitation. There's no violence involved (Alice and Freya are another matter entirely and should not be allowed near ice cubes )

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    Re: Sabotage!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mythical View Post
    Ok, I can't get my head round the concept (probably not a bad thing, since I'm really new to this dancing malarkey) But HOW do you sabotage, without leading? Is sabotaging and back leading the same thing?

    It hadn't crossed my mind, until I dance with this guy last night, who was just....damn well cheeky! I had to follow and think "If I were a better dancer, you'd be so going down!"

    So what IS this sabotaging thing I keep hearing so much about? When do I get to learn this??
    How about this thread that I started a while ago? (Hopefully I can Harperlink TM this. ) www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/11207-catapult-escapes.html

    It just deals with catapults, but I'm sure there are others

    Enjoy

    Cheers

    Whitetiger

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