Wikipedia Ceroc article - any changes?

[David Bailey]

Inspired by this post on dance-forums, what do people think of the Ceroc Wikipedia article?

I was wondering whether it'd be useful to create a separate article for Ceroc in different countries - starting with a "Ceroc in Australia" article, for example - which could talk about the differences in tone and emphasis (e.g. more competitive and sporty than in the UK).

Presumably it'd also be useful to mention weekenders, now Ceroc's doing lots of these...

Any other suggestions for changes, either in content or structure?

Has anyone Official In Ceroc looked at the article?

[MartinHarper]

Weekenders are currently mentioned here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceroc_Enterprises

However, I'm unconvinced there should be a seperate article on Ceroc Enterprises vs Ceroc, so maybe these should be merged back.

I would prefer to see an "In Australia" and "in UK" sections of the Ceroc article, rather than creating new [[Ceroc in Australia]], [[Ceroc in UK]] articles.

[NZ Monkey]

I was wondering whether it'd be useful to create a separate article for Ceroc in different countries - starting with a "Ceroc in Australia" article, for example - which could talk about the differences in tone and emphasis (e.g. more competitive and sporty than in the UK).

My question is who gets to write the sections discussing differences in tone between some very big and diverse countries? Which company do they belong to and how much do they really know about the scene in other cities in Australia, let alone other cities in England?

I'll be the first person to agree that there are differences, and I'll even go as far as saying that there are certain generalisations you could get away with making without too much dissagreement from either side. Wikipedia is (supposed to be at least) an online encyclopedia though and so there really should be something a little more substantial than commonly held generalisations. I'd be prepared to say a lot more in private, or even on this forum where a good number of people know me personally, than I would on a commonly used resource that implies some degree of authority.

Hell, if you asked me to write a list of differences between the way things are done in Wellington and Auckland I couldn't do it, and they're not even that far apart....

[David Bailey]

My question is who gets to write the sections discussing differences in tone between some very big and diverse countries?

Anyone - that's both the strength and the weakness of the system.

My initial idea when starting this thread was to generate a debate in here about what contributions we think might be useful - no disrespect to other forums, but this is the main MJ online community. If we could then come to a consensus about any changes required, then that'd point the way towards what changes might be needed.

Of course, it's not really generated much debate in the first place, so that Grand Plan, like most of my other Grand Plans, has fallen by the wayside

I'll be the first person to agree that there are differences, and I'll even go as far as saying that there are certain generalisations you could get away with making without too much dissagreement from either side.

OK, I'll bite - Such as?

Wikipedia is (supposed to be at least) an online encyclopedia though and so there really should be something a little more substantial than commonly held generalisations. I'd be prepared to say a lot more in private, or even on this forum where a good number of people know me personally, than I would on a commonly used resource that implies some degree of authority.

Clearly you've not read that many Wikipedia articles...

But seriously, if you don't know, who does? People like yourself, KatieR, Trampy, Yliander, and others who've spent time dancing / teaching MJ in several countries will presumably be the authorities on the differences between those countries, from a practical point of view anyway.

Hmmm... I wonder if it's worth raising this on cerocforum.com?

[NZ Monkey]

OK, I'll bite - Such as?

There have been other extensive threads on the subject over the years, and I can tell you that every single person who has spent time in different countries has ended up with a different view of the place they visit. That's my point - I *could* write a long and detailed article on it, but someone else who is just as qualified as me coming the opposite way may well have the exact opposite opinion based on their own experiences. Which of us is more right?

If I post my opinions here then they are my opinions. I happen to think they're a pretty accurate representation of the situations, but then I would since they are *my* opinions.

If I were to post them on Wikipedia, then I make some sort of claim at being an authority when really I'm just another common schmuck.

Clearly you've not read that many Wikipedia articles...

Hey...I said ''implied'' for a reason

But seriously, if you don't know, who does? People like yourself, KatieR, Trampy, Yliander, and others who've spent time dancing / teaching MJ in several countries will presumably be the authorities on the differences between those countries, from a practical point of view anyway.

Hmmm... I wonder if it's worth raising this on cerocforum.com?

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I know Trampy and I have contrasting opinions on many of the differences between the UK and NZ. I'm sure KatieR and Yliander have different views than both of us.

I think you'll find the question has already been raised on cerocforum.com as well. It might be interesting to try resurecting it anyway.

When I mentioned the difference between Auckland and Wellington, I wasn't just pulling names out of a hat. It's a fairly safe bet that Adam is running things the same way they're done in the UK down in Wellington, and that the culture reflects that. I don't know that for sure since I've never visited and don't actually know anyone involved in the operation personally. Someone in Wellington would likely have a very different view of Ceroc in NZ than me, but even if it's completely contradictory to mine you couldn't claim that either of us were wrong. We both represent NZ in the same way.

I have a problem expressing something as subjective as an opinion on a tool commonly thought of as a research aid available to anyone in the world. Here I don't mind one bit, but not on Wikipedia :P

[David Bailey]

I think you'll find the question has already been raised on cerocforum.com as well. It might be interesting to try resurecting it anyway.

Yep, the "differences" question has ( ) - but on a brief search, I can't see any discussion about the wikipedia articles?

I have a problem expressing something as subjective as an opinion on a tool commonly thought of as a research aid available to anyone in the world. Here I don't mind one bit, but not on Wikipedia :P

OK, I realise a "comparative dance styles" article would be tricky, but surely there are some relatively uncontroversial and non-subjective comments one can make about the differences between, say, UK and Oz?

For example:
- Higher number of competitions (relatively)
- "Intromediate" classes
- Card system
- Different demographics
- etc.

One could even attempt to make some points - in a non-controversial manner - about the types of moves being taught, and danced (e.g. lots of emphasis on visuals), without being derogatory to either culture.

[Alice]

One could even attempt to make some points - in a non-controversial manner - about the types of moves being taught, and danced (e.g. lots of emphasis on visuals), without being derogatory to either culture.

You could try to, anyway

Like the idea in theory, but we've all seen the fireworks when anyone here tries to put together a "reasonable", non-derogatory comparison of the different MJ cultures in Oz, NZ and UK.

[adss]

That's my point - I *could* write a long and detailed article on it, but someone else who is just as qualified as me coming the opposite way may well have the exact opposite opinion based on their own experiences. Which of us is more right?

Wiki is ideal to manage conflict of opinion: it has a discussion tab for every article. Also, when it comes to Ceroc&MJ in Australia, there is already a great collaborative effort at the www.cerocwiki.com site (I think it is currently down).

[David Bailey]

You could try to, anyway

Like the idea in theory, but we've all seen the fireworks when anyone here tries to put together a "reasonable", non-derogatory comparison of the different MJ cultures in Oz, NZ and UK.

Yep, there was a lot of heated debate...

On the other hand, I vaguely recall we did reach some sort of consensus on the issue - or at least I did

[adss]

OK, I realise a "comparative dance styles" article would be tricky, but surely there are some relatively uncontroversial and non-subjective comments one can make about the differences between, say, UK and Oz?

For example:
- Higher number of competitions (relatively)
- "Intromediate" classes
- Card system
- Different demographics
- etc.
.

Ceroc & Modern Jive Forum

[Gadget]

~ Which company do they belong to and how much do they really know about the scene in other cities in Australia, let alone other cities in England?

What about us? Dosn't Scotland deserve a mention?

[David Bailey]

Ceroc & Modern Jive Forum

Good point, I'd forgotten about that. Want to add it in to Wikipedia then?

What about us? Dosn't Scotland deserve a mention?

Hey, don't let me stop you...

[Dreadful Scathe]

What about us? Dosn't Scotland deserve a mention?

yes - a bit cheeky to say that on the Ceroc Scotland forum

[David Bailey]

yes - a bit cheeky to say that on the Ceroc Scotland forum

Seriously, do people think there's a significant difference between Scotland and other UK areas in culture?

If so, then by all means, edit the article.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Seriously, do people think there's a significant difference between Scotland and other UK areas in culture?

If so, then by all means, edit the article.

yes there is, a substantial one once you get further north than Perth. Thats not what Gadget and I were commenting on though - it was the "other cities in England" comment

[David Bailey]

yes there is, a substantial one once you get further north than Perth. Thats not what Gadget and I were commenting on though - it was the "other cities in England" comment

Oh right, sorry - I didn't get that bit.

Hold on - you mean Scotland's not a city in England? I assumed it was somewhere around Birmingham...

[NZ Monkey]

What about us? Dosn't Scotland deserve a mention?

NZ Monkey takes his slap on the wrist and hopes nobody else noticed that little slip

Even I could tell you there's a difference in style and culture of Ceroc in Scotland and I was only there for a week

[Tiggerbabe]

I was only there for a week

we know

[NZ Monkey]

we know

You are too kind