"I don't go back on that foot..."

[David Bailey]

Dancing with a lady last night, I encountered some resistance to her stepping back on her right foot - which I was trying to get her to do, to lead into Manhattans, West Manhattans, cross-body leads, tango walks and so on (most of my current move-set in other words).

But she just kept going back on her left foot, without fail.

I initially assumed that my lead was at fault and tried to make it clearer - no luck.

I then resorted to verbal indication (I know, I know, but I was desperate), only to be told point-blank: "No, I don't go back on that foot".

Is it me, or is that a weird thing to say?
Is it a valid choice for her to make?

I left it at that, and did other moves - was that the right thing to do? What should I have done?

[Minnie M]

Oh dear David IMO that is so bad

If the lady didn't understand - or couldn't do it -or for what ever the reason is - DON'T do it - move on it is only a dance and it should be fun, why make it hard work, and embarassing for your partner.

Unless it is in a class (an actual lesson) IMHO in freestyle you should not tell a lady what to do (unless she asks)

[David Bailey]

If the lady didn't understand - or couldn't do it -or for what ever the reason is - DON'T do it - move on it is only a dance and it should be fun, why make it hard work, and embarassing for your partner.

Fair enough - but I just wondered why anyone would decide not to step back on her right foot...

Unless it is in a class (an actual lesson) IMHO in freestyle you should not tell a lady what to do (unless she asks)

Yeah, it's the last refuge of the incompetent

The problem is that the stuff I'm doing now, especially to certain types of music, all depends on being able to use that "mirrored backstep" as a starting point. So it's not like refusing a pretzel, it's more like refusing to do slotted dancing. Which is a new one on me...

[drathzel]

i dont have a prefered foot i'm always changing between the two and sometimes i dont step back i take my foot forward (this is to compensate for people taking big steps and to save my little arms and shoulders).

I dont know how people can only do it on one foot, my cousin is the same and she gets herself into such a tizzy over the basket and cerocspin cuz her feet wont go in the right direction cuz she has already stepped on it.

It could be the person learnt in a class where the teacher always stepped back on her left foot and ceroc is a very visual dance, i mean look how many people in the beginners class always swap their feet round on the step back when the teach has stepped back on the other foot.

[Franck]

I think this is the problem with teachers who make a big deal of always stepping on a specific foot. Most people will dance, learn to follow and use whatever connection is given to them to eventually learn to follow properly and use each foot as appropriate, but some dancers, will take their teachers' words literally, refuse to follow and only step back on 'that' foot, as any other foot would be wrong.
In the process they will add complex weight-changes to make sure they step back on 'that' foot despite being clearly (ok not always, but sometimes) led to step back on the 'other' foot.

Having said that, I agree with MinnieM, not much you could have done, except smile and dance without leading any step backs on 'that' foot! Lecturing one's partner on the dance floor is always bad form.

I know I should have stayed away from this thread, but it pushed my 'which foot do followers step back on?' button.

[Tiggerbabe]

Fair enough - but I just wondered why anyone would decide not to step back on her right foot...

Maybe it's just that she'd not encountered these moves before and normally steps back on her left. Perhaps the demo, at the classes she goes to, always starts by stepping back left and she (the lady you danced with) has assumed that you must do this.

As it was at a freestyle, I think you did the right thing by moving on.

[MartinHarper]

Dancing with a lady last night, I encountered some resistance to her stepping back on her right foot - which I was trying to get her to do, to lead into Manhattans, West Manhattans, cross-body leads, tango walks and so on (most of my current move-set in other words).

Seems to me like it should be possible to lead a follower into Manhattans and cross-body stuff regardless of what foot they go back on in open. (I've no idea what tango walks are).
Did she refuse to step back right in closed? I can see that being harder.

Is it a valid choice for her to make?

I can think of valid reasons to make that choice. You'd have to ask the lady what her reasons are to know if they're valid.

In the process they will add complex weight-changes to make sure they step back on 'that' foot despite being clearly (ok not always, but sometimes) led to step back on the 'other' foot.

Hmm. When I follow I end up doing all kinds of hoppity-skippity things to step back on my right in closed position (first move, basket, sway, etc). Not really sure what to do about that.

[David Bailey]

Seems to me like it should be possible to lead a follower into Manhattans and cross-body stuff regardless of what foot they go back on in open. (I've no idea what tango walks are).
Did she refuse to step back right in closed? I can see that being harder.

Yep, refused in open, closed - every which way she could, basically.

At one point I wondered if she was a LeRoc spy...

[Tiggerbabe]

Ok, maybe some "helpful" person told her once she had two left feet, and she believed them

[Franck]

Hmm. When I follow I end up doing all kinds of hoppity-skippity things to step back on my right in closed position (first move, basket, sway, etc). Not really sure what to do about that.

There's nothing wrong with doing 'hoppity-skippity' things if you're trying to achieve a particular look, match your partner or because it feels right. I was only referring to doing it (even when it doesn't feel natural) because you've been told you must step back on 'that foot'!

As far as avoiding, if you don't like it, I would recommend stepping with feet level (and close) so that it's easy to shift your weight distribution and follow your partner's lead (if available).

[Freya]

Hmmm, Thinking bout when I dance I change feet almost as quickly as the weather changes in scotland

I have no preference as to which foot to step back on, I don't think so anyway! It's not a conscious effort anyway! If a guy leads me in manhattans or walks then I expect him to lead me back on the foot he wants by trying to gauge when my weight is on the other foot enabling the other to be free to move. I assume though being a great advocate of AT that DavidJames does this! My very very basic knowledge of AT inclines me to think that this is one of the basic principles.

I don't know why this lady said she doesn't step back on her right foot. Maybe she misunderstood her teacher saying to step back on the Left all the time, maybe she has a physical problem that she physically can't step back on the Right (ok grasping at straws there!). Was she a good dancer otherwise?

I find that one thing I hate is when the teacher says in the intermediate class that there is going to be footwork, be it Cha Cha Cha,or even penjuin walk kinda thing! Not because I hate the Footwork aspect! I love it! I can usually never do it because it takes alot of practice for me to learn these things. But because of the guys in the class! I have on occasion had a guy walk off the dance floor in the middle of the class (with me...Do I Smell?) growling that there was footwork involved and ceroc isn't supposed to have it!!!!!

But I think I've kinda derailed the topic a bit? I got a bit carried away

[purplehyacinth]

Hmmm, Thinking bout when I dance I change feet almost as quickly as the weather changes in scotland

I have no preference as to which foot to step back on, I don't think so anyway! It's not a conscious effort anyway! If a guy leads me in manhattans or walks then I expect him to lead me back on the foot he wants by trying to gauge when my weight is on the other foot enabling the other to be free to move.

I'd be hard put to tell you what foot I step back on! When it comes to moves where footwork is an issue, then 9 times out of 10, I will generally get the lead from the man which puts me on the correct foot (the pressure in the small of ones back/on the hip from the leader's hand generally tells me), and if I'm wrong footing at that point, then there is generally a "fudge" on my part (I think I tend either simply to weight shift, or to do some sort of a gliding transfer rather than skip - but I've been doing these fudges so long in other types of dancing that I now tend to do them without actually knowing what it is I do to achieve them - perhaps some kind leaders who have had the dubious pleasure of dancing with me could let me know (by PM if they don't want to embarrass me in open forum) if I have any horrendous habits I should be correcting).

Anyway, sorry this waffle is rather off-topic.

To get back to the subject, given that ceroc seems to be taught with feet being mentioned only at certain points (ie where there is choreography, or where one foot has to be at a particular point in a particular move), I would generally agree with Freya that I would expect that the man's lead should give the lady a pretty good clue as to where her feet are meant to be (or which foot her weight should be over) if it matters at that point in the dance.

Just to be controversial - if the man has been giving an adequately clear lead and the lady has not followed it, then I would say that that is not always the man's fault. (unless of course the lady in question is a beginner follower who may not be experienced in interpreting the particular lead/signal - in which case is it really anyone's fault??)

[Yogi_Bear]

Just make sure she has her weight on her left foot before you step forwards leading her to step back. Then if she doesn't step back on her right she will fall over....but I don't suppose it would have been that easy or you wouldn't have had such a problem....

[MartinHarper]

Just make sure she has her weight on her left foot before you step forwards leading her to step back. Then if she doesn't step back on her right she will fall over....

If the follower's feet are together, she can easily add a quick weight transfer in order to step back on her left.

[frodo]

Yep, refused in open, closed - every which way she could, basically.

At one point I wondered if she was a LeRoc spy...

I have come across a similar lady at a Leroc venue, who whatever I tried I couldn't get her to step back on her right foot - it was just remarkable how she always managed not to - but only ever one. Didn't try a verbal lead though.

Contrary to the impression I've got from reading this forum, I haven't got the impression at Leroc classes I've been to that there was much emphasis on footwork.

Though I've never AFAIR heard 'step back on any foot you feel like' at a Leroc class.

[Andy McGregor]

Oooh! Footwork dicussions. Yippee

I can't resist them. There is only one footwork for MJ In an eight beat phrase it goes RLRLRLRL for the ladies. Of course you can vary it a bit when you get good. But the basic MJ is pretty much as I've said.

Which brings me to a further point. Has there been a discussion about the Ceroc DVD "Turn Your Home into a Ceroc Venue"? After watching for a few chapters I lost the will to ever attend a Ceroc venue...

[Franck]

If the follower's feet are together, she can easily add a quick weight transfer in order to step back on her left.

True, but assuming you have established some level of connection, she will not feel the need to transfer weight and will follow your body lead.
If she ignores the connection and transfers weight, the lead should feel it and adjust his move or footwork accordingly; if she is good enough to isolate her footwork from the connection, then she probably had a more interesting idea than I was about to lead anyway.
If no connection was present, I would avoid any patterns or moves that require my partner to be on a specific foot since I wouldn't be able to feel her weight-distribution.

[Franck]

Dancing with a lady last night, I encountered some resistance to her stepping back on her right foot
/snip/
"No, I don't go back on that foot".

There is only one footwork for MJ In an eight beat phrase it goes RLRLRLRL for the ladies. Of course you can vary it a bit when you get good. But the basic MJ is pretty much as I've said.

I think this is the problem with teachers who make a big deal of always stepping on a specific foot. Most people will dance, learn to follow and use whatever connection is given to them to eventually learn to follow properly and use each foot as appropriate, but some dancers, will take their teachers' words literally, refuse to follow and only step back on 'that' foot, as any other foot would be wrong.

I had no idea the lady was one of your students Andy, but it all makes sense now!

[NZ Monkey]

I can't resist them. There is only one footwork for MJ In an eight beat phrase it goes RLRLRLRL for the ladies.

Hmmmm, I wonder what the ladies here will say tonight when I tell them they're not dancing MJ then? Perhaps they'll ask for their money back? There could be a revolution!

This is sounding like a more fun idea all the time.....

[Lou]

Hmmmm, I wonder what the ladies here will say tonight when I tell them they're not dancing MJ then?

Andy's just got a very black & whites view of the world.

Is it me, or is that a weird thing to say?
Is it a valid choice for her to make?

I don't think it's weird & I think it's valid (but I would say that, wouldn't I?)

I did pretty much the same thing to Nigel Anderson once. If you don't believe me, ask Andy - he was there.

Actually, it wasn't as bad as your scenario, DJ - Nigel was trying to show me why I should step back on my right. I was deliberately stepping back left to show him my point of view, too. But I have to say it's very hard to step back on one foot, when a leader like Nigel is clearly indicating the other foot!

From this I learned that there is no One True Footwork (which is why I think Andy is wrong to say that only RLRLRLRL is valid).

And yes, it's hard to lead Manhattans, etc. sometimes when the Lady's doing standard Left foot back. It requires a stronger lead, and space for her to realise what you're trying to make her do. Feel free to practice on me sometime, as I can do stubborn left foot back very well....

I've posted many times about the theories behind Left Foot Back for followers. Contrary to what Frodo's posted here:

Contrary to the impression I've got from reading this forum, I haven't got the impression at Leroc classes I've been to that there was much emphasis on footwork.

it is emphasised in Bristolian LeRoc classes. It's definitely taught that way by Sherif, John Eastman & Jackie, the folks at Elmgrove, and Dave & Cat at Trinity. Perhaps he's attended another LeRoc class? It certainly ISN'T taught that way in Brighton LeRoc classes, for instance.

I know I should have stayed away from this thread, but it pushed my 'which foot do followers step back on?' button.

Really?! Yay! Footwork!

Perhaps the demo, at the classes she goes to, always starts by stepping back left and she (the lady you danced with) has assumed that you must do this.

Or even the teacher says it. In the classes I mentioned above as examples, there are usually 2 teachers - the male teacher goes through the man's steps - and the female teacher teaches the lady's steps.