British Champions???

[Gus]

ODA feeling the need to sound off:reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

If my ageing memory serves me right we now have about three or four Modern Jive champs that in some way or other puport (either explicitly or implicitly) to produce 'National Champs'. Let me see, there is Blackpool (C2D), Hammersmith (Ceroc), Jive Master (Ceroc Metro), Bristol (LeRoc), Brighton (LeRoc) ... have I missed anyone out????

At the end of the year, how many couples will be splashing across all their publicity material UK CHAMPS!. I'm already a bit tired of every and anyone promoting a course, club or holiday including a refernce to being a Dance Champion .... just how many are there????

Any comments? (having lit touchpaper, stands back for flaming )

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
ODA feeling the need to sound off:reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

If my ageing memory serves me right we now have about three or four Modern Jive champs that in some way or other puport (either explicitly or implicitly) to produce 'National Champs'. Let me see, there is Blackpool (C2D), Hammersmith (Ceroc), Jive Master (Ceroc Metro), Bristol (LeRoc), Brighton (LeRoc) ... have I missed anyone out????

At the end of the year, how many couples will be splashing across all their publicity material UK CHAMPS!. I'm already a bit tired of every and anyone promoting a course, club or holiday including a refernce to being a Dance Champion .... just how many are there????

Any comments? (having lit touchpaper, stands back for flaming )

Just to be pedantic for a moment, you've said 3 or 4 then listed 5 events and you missed out the Scottish Ceroc Champs on the 18th October (I thought we'd better mention that as this is their Forum ) so that makes 6.

I gave this matter a lot of thought before organising a competition myself. Is there room for another competition? What do you call the winners? Will anyone come? Will I have a good time? Will anyone else?

When I looked at what we've got down here in the South-East we've got Ceroc running 2 competitions and no others being run at all. For an independent event we need to go to Blackpool (which was brilliant even if I didn't win) and Bristol (which for me clashes with Cowes Yacht Racing Week and probably clashes with quite a few other people's holidays as well). But both of these are a bit of a trek so I suppose geography has played a part in the decision to hold a competition in Brighton.

Then, if you're inviting people from all over the country you have to call it a 'National' competition. Which means your champions will be National Champions. And why not. They've won a competition in a fair (hopefully ) contest. Anyone who's won a competition is going to be good (regretfully, better than me - and probably you, Gus) so you would hope that you could learn something from them if they use their title to promote their courses.

I can't imagine that more people are running courses than before just because there have been dance competitions. But if we know nothing about the person running a course except they've won a dance contest we have some idea that they can dance - although we still don't know if they can teach

Personally, I can't get enough competitions. On most Sundays I'm out Sailing in regattas and quite a few Saturdays too. Loads of people play football/squash/cycle/run/etc/etc every weekend. Our children compete in sport, music and dance festivals all over the place. We've got just 6 dance contests to choose from in the whole year, that's just one every 2 months. If I could I'd enter all of them - and win none of them but have a great day out with like minded people from all over the country

p.s. I'd love to say I win elsewhere but my sailing team have only won twice in the last 2 years and scores of races. And one of those was 'Best Dressed Crew' - as wardrobe mistress I was so proud.

[Divissima]

Hi Andy - thought you must be the same on as is organising Britroc! Don't let Gus get to you - he has a bee in his bonnet about competitions (see 'Dance Competitions are Evil' recent thread)... Those of us who love competing, just like you, will come to Brighton in October, and those who hate competitions will stay away. But judging from the numbers who attend C2D and the Ceroc Hammersmith champs (to mention two of the larger ones) which always seem full, there should be a decent sized crowd.
I was pleased to see that you have introduced guidelines/rules for entrants to the Intermediate competition so that anyone who has placed in intermediate has to move up. Seems a good idea to me. Must get my entry form in

[Mike]

Originally posted by Gus
ODA feeling the need to sound off:reallymad :reallymad :reallymad


At the end of the year, how many couples will be splashing across all their publicity material UK CHAMPS!. I'm already a bit tired of every and anyone promoting a course, club or holiday including a refernce to being a Dance Champion .... just how many are there????

Any comments? (having lit touchpaper, stands back for flaming )

Maybe it is time to have a points system, which at the end of the year emphasises the overall National Champion? Rather than Ceroc/Leroc National Champ which is possibly weighted with the competitors entered

Moving on…it could also include the Aussie/NZ comps? World Champions maybe? Having watched /followed competitions from both sides of the globe in the last 4 years I have a good idea who that may be!

Mike

[Will]

I like your thinking Mike!

Perhaps we could have a "Grand Prix" season each year. Competitors travel around the country (and even the world) amassing points!

Personally I love competitions and just can't get enough of 'em, but I do take Gus' point about their being several "National Champions" which does dillute the title a little.

Tennis (which also seems to get dominated by Aussie's) seems to manage having 4 Grand Slam events each year, as well as a grand prix circuit. And in Tennis you can be Wimbledon Champion whilst someone else is the US Open champion, but yet a 3rd person might be "World No.1". I think sports can cope with multiple champions provided the titles are different. After all we have "UK Ceroc Champions, UK Open Jive Champions, UK Leroc Champions, etc..."

I think though at the end of the day when it comes to dancing you have to live with the fact that no-one is ever going to be undisputedly the best because there is always an element of personal taste involved which differs from person to person.

See y'all at Britroc & LeRoc 2000!

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Mike
Maybe it is time to have a points system, which at the end of the year emphasises the overall National Champion? Rather than Ceroc/Leroc National Champ which is possibly weighted with the competitors entered

Before I started dancing I used to fence. We had a national ranking scheme which worked really well. It could work for dancing. Each competition was graded based on the number of top 50 fencers taking part. Then you got points based on your position in the competition and the grading of the competition. Some competitions were A Grade internationals and you got an international ranking from them as well as a domestic one.

The difficulty for dancing would be that we would have to give everyone a place right down to last! And who wants to know they were last? All you can do with fencing or tennis is compete so it's useful to know what your ranking is for pairing/seeding purposes. This is not the case with dancing where it is mostly social with occasional competitions. You could imagine a dance night where someone says 'I can't dance with you, I'm ranked 32 and you are only 526'!

And you would have to have a national body (and international if you want to include Australia) to administer the rankings. I'm not doing it and I'm not sure if we could get all the various organisations to agree. From what I've read in another thread, one of the big boys doesn't even acknowledge that any other classes or organisations exists so how could the meet with them to discuss anything!

And of course, the Tramp would try to come last so he could get a bigger number than anyone else and prove that he really is 'just a beginner'

[DavidB]

There are only two real UK-wide competitions - Blackpool & Ceroc London. They are the only ones that attract a significant number of dancers from across the UK, and worldwide. They are by far the most prestigous titles to win.

The Scottish competition could easily call itself a National title - it just depends which nation you are talking about. However it is not able to call itself a Championship due to internal pressures within Ceroc. Does that mean the winner is just 'the winner', and not 'a champion'?

Bristol is really a 'local' event. It might be a big local event, and for some people the highlight of the year, but not enough people from outside the area attend. Brighton will probably be the same - attracting mainly local dancers, London dancers, and the serial competitors.

Scotland, Bristol & Brighton have a problem that they are too far away for many dancers to go. It costs a lot of money for 2 people to fly, maybe hire a car, spend a couple of nights in a hotel, and pay for the event as well. But for the local dancers they are great - they can experience what a competition is like without the expense of going to Blackpool or London.

The Jive Masters is an interesting one. Given the people who are taking part, it would be a very good title to win. However it is not open to anyone, which I think a true national championship has to be.

I doubt there is appetite for more than 2 big competitions a year, unless someone can come up with a lot of sponsorship. But I can see a lot more local competitions springing up.

David

[Dreadful Scathe]

The vast majority of us are 'social' dancers and although some of us do like the occasional competition, the kind of circuit and points system of competitions suggested above would lend itself to the nigel, nina, clayton and lilyb's of the world and probably serve to filter away the rest of us. Or even make the rest of us spectators at the occasional event. Going down that road has its merits but there is still a place for the structure we have now. Calling yourself UK Jive champion is not a big deal as far as i can see, theres lots of big competitions that proclaim to be something they're not - e.g. Baseballs World Series seems to only involve the US and Canada. In the case of jive competitions in the UK, it doesnt seem to be the organisers misrepresenting themselves, just the competitors. I dont mind that though, if they were lucky (i.e. getting dragged around by a good partner in a lucky dip competition to win 1st place) and turn out to be frauds they'll get found out anyway. I wont lose any sleep over it.

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by DavidB
There are only two real UK-wide competitions - Blackpool & Ceroc London. They are the only ones that attract a significant number of dancers from across the UK, and worldwide. They are by far the most prestigous titles to win.David

I agree that these 2 are the UK-wide competitions. But I think that the Blackpool one is really the one to win because it is independent and it draws its judges from the whole community of modern jive. The Ceroc London one is NOT independent, not even close. It doesn't represent Modern Jive in the UK I think it selects the best Ceroc dancers in the UK - pure and simple.

Let's remember for a moment that Ceroc is a privately owned franchise. Now let's think about another franchise, for example, McDonalds. Imagine there is a hamburger making competition to find the best hamburger maker in the good old USA. How much chance do the chefs from Burger King have if all the judges are Professors from the McDonalds University of Hamburgerology? They would be judging who does best what they teach. And they teach the McDonalds way. Therefore the winner would likely be trained by McDonalds. Now lets compare this example to the London Ceroc Championships - anyone spot the similarity?

More tellingly, apart from product and company names can anyone spot a difference?

I am not criticising the London Ceroc Champs - it is unashamedly what it is and it is well run, in the main fairly judged and an unforgettable day. But it is the National Ceroc Championships not the National Modern Jive Championships. I would say that any National titles given at the Ceroc Champs could only be claimed in the same way as the winning McDonalds chef in the above example could only claim he was the McDonalds Hamburger Chef of the Year. Not the best Hamburger Chef in the Country.

p.s. Can I be assistant O.D.A now?

[Graham W]

...or maybe u could see it in boxing terms - there are different belts - some a bit less prestigous than others , but all worth something in their own right...

G

the Macdonalds analogy is amusing..

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Therefore the winner would likely be trained by McDonalds. Now lets compare this example to the London Ceroc Championships

Much as I would like to agree, I'm not sure I do. Which winners were Ceroc teachers? Or Ceroc-trained dancers? The only Ceroc teacher in the Open final was Ben, and his style is most un-Ceroc like. Many of the dancers who did well (Steve Wong, Siu Fai & Karmel, Amir, Dan & Zara, Antony & Sarah) do not dance the way Ceroc teach.

I agree that Blackpool is still a better competition in every virtually respect - to watch, to enter, and if you are lucky enough, to win. The only way it may fall short of the Ceroc comp is in the video. But Ceroc have responded to a number of criticisms they have had in the past. The judges this year were amongst the most experienced teachers they have. The judging criteria were published. The marks were published. The music was consistent (if not always inspiring). The organisation was pretty good. All they really need is a better venue.

I hope that Blackpool continues to have a broader range of judges, and Ceroc continue to use experienced Ceroc teachers. It gives each competition a distinct flavour. The worst thing that could happen would be for the panel in each competition to be the same.

David

[Ash]

Let's remember for a moment that Ceroc is a privately owned franchise. Now let's think about another franchise, for example, McDonalds...

I always think of Ceroc as the McDonalds of the jive world...

I was speaking to one of the judges at the Ceroc competition and she said that on her judging sheet, in bold, under every criteria, was that everyone must dance Ceroc...

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Ash
on her judging sheet, in bold, under every criteria, was that everyone must dance Ceroc...

And in the Judging Criteria for Blackpool:
"70% of dancing should be clearly recognisable as Modern Jive, (WCS, ECS, Lindy Hop, ‘although very nice’, are not classed as Modern Jive)"

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
.......The vast majority of us are 'social' dancers and although some of us do like the occasional competition, the kind of circuit and points system of competitions suggested above would lend itself to the nigel, nina, clayton and lilyb's of the world and probably serve to filter away the rest of us.......

Hmmm.... not sure if I agree with you there, DS. In the last 11 months, I have entered 3 competitions with 3 different partners and haven't done too badly. However, I can't see how a points system could work for someone in my position (and I am aware of many people who frequently compete with different partners). It also wouldn't work for those of us who are not serial competitors and who only choose to compete occasionally. As DS points out, the vast majority of us are 'social' dancers, myself included. In order to accumulate points, we would be compelled to enter every competition, no matter where, when & whether we really want to or not! That doesn't sound particularly fair to me.

LilyB

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by DavidB
Much as I would like to agree, I'm not sure I do. Which winners were Ceroc teachers? Or Ceroc-trained dancers? The only Ceroc teacher in the Open final was Ben, and his style is most un-Ceroc like. Many of the dancers who did well (Steve Wong, Siu Fai & Karmel, Amir, Dan & Zara, Antony & Sarah) do not dance the way Ceroc teach.

Clayton and Janine are originally Ceroc (Australia). Debbi Cantoni and Ben White are I think Ceroc Australia and won the Showcase and the came second in the Open. On the subject of Ben, he didn't dance much at all in the final - I was mostly watching the others do their spectacular airsteps but all I saw from Ben and Hollie was high quality smooching. Ben can be brilliant but he wasn't trying in the Open final, he was playing around. And I know Ben quite well as he and I came 3rd together in the Intermediate last year in Blackpool as the Milk Tray boys.

The She Bangs routine which won the showcase was pure Ceroc -whatever that is. And the second placed team was run by Nicky Haslam - founder of Ceroc Australia.

And I've heard that one judge (Adam) said he had real difficulty marking Amir and Lily because they didn't do Ceroc.

Have I said enough yet to prove that Ceroc Competitions like Ceroc taught people?

And while we're on the subject, what is Ceroc? I've been looking for a description which describes Ceroc in a similar way to a description of the Waltz or Quickstep. Anyone willing to have a go? It's easy to say what Ceroc or Modern Jive isn't, but what is it?

[DavidB]

As I understand it, neither 'Ceroc & Modern Jive Dance Company' (Nicky Haslam) or 'Ceroc Australia Dance Company' (Mark Harding) are Ceroc franchises. I am guessing 'Ceroc' is only a registered trademark in the UK, so anyone can use it in another country. However I have never heard a definitive statement on this from anyone who really knows, and I could be wrong.

Deb Cantoni runs LeBop in Melbourne. She is nothing to do with Ceroc.

I have no doubt that the Ceroc judges are looking for a particular style. But that doesn't mean the people they like have to be trained by Ceroc. The Australian/NZ style in particular seems to lend itself to competitions more than the UK style.


As for a definition of Modern Jive, the usual ones are
- "What gets taught in a typical Modern Jive class"
- "Anything that is not Ballroom Jive, or ECS, or WCS, or Lindy, or Salsa etc"

Some people have tried more detailed definitions, eg Brisbane Le Step. It is an important question, as many competitions state a mimimum requirement for the 'Modern Jive' content of a routine. Even if you can define what is Modern Jive on the floor, do you count aerials & drops as jive? After all they are frequently taught in classes and workshops.

David

[Dance Demon]

this thread seems to be taking the same route as one posted several months ago titled " Ceroc-..Company name or dance style"........Personally, I would find it hard to differentiate, between a couple dancing Ceroc, and a couple dancing Leroc, as basically most of the moves are the same, or at least very similar(although some may have different names) However, I would think it highly unlikeley, that someone who is known to run a Leroc venue, would win a Ceroc title. The same would apply to Blitz, Le Jive, Mo Jive etc etc..Likewise the forthcoming Leroc championships in Brighton are unlikeley to have a Ceroc franchisee or teacher as winners. I think it's called politics.
So the National Ceroc Champions, are precisely that................. The National open Jive Champions, winners of the Blackpool C2D competition, are preciseley that.....National,Modern Jive champions, which includes competition from all the modern jive styles.
If I recall correctly, there is a seperate section at Blackpool for Lindy Hop, and for showcase, which strictly speaking doesn't include a huge amount of modern jive in some instances.
But the winners of the Lindy Hop section, get to call themselves "UK open Lindy Hop Champions" even though the competition wasn't particularly stiff( Not being a Swing event meant that a lot of big names from the swing circuit were not there)...at the same time I take nothing away from Paul and Yasmin, who are already Pan Australian Lindy Champions, but this is another title to add to their CV.
In summary, the winners of the Ceroc comp. are UK
Ceroc champions, and the winners of the C2D comp. are UK modern jive champions incorporating competition from all modern jive styles. Both have the right to their titles, having satified all the criteria for each comp. and having entered with the uderstanding that should they win, it entitles them to call themselves UK champions.

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
........And I've heard that one judge (Adam) said he had real difficulty marking Amir and Lily because they didn't do Ceroc.......

Hmmm...... presumably there was no dispute that I was dancing Modern Jive at Blackpool. I wonder what Ceroc judges would have made of my dancing at Blackpool - would they have considered that 'proper' Ceroc/Modern Jive, or are the two mutually exclusive?

LilyB

[cerocmetro]

ouch, Amir and Lliy in my opinion were not dancing a ceroc/modern Jive style in the first round of the competition, at the Ceroc Champs. It was much more advanced dancing, real dancing if you like. Moves and style not taught in Ceroc classes. However, they were in the final round.

This sounds as though I just discounted their dancing. From what I recal there were four categories for us to vote. The one that said Ceroc content or what ever it was, keeping to the word I felt I was right. However the other categories, lead & follow, music int etc I believe I marked them highly.

So what is Ceroc, good question and one I have been trying to find an answer to.

When I started Ceroc, James taught a weekly advanced class. It included much more Lindy, air steps than are taught today. But I am now thinking Ceroc is not a dance at all. It is way a of learning a Modern Jive type dance. ie, learn to dance using the Ceroc method. Ceroc is, a way of teaching, it is a social night, excercise.

Ceroc started I believe not through James deciding to start a business, he began because he was pushed by his mates who wanted to do the type of dancing he was doing. A dance he had picked up in France. In a very infomal way, he found a technique that made it easy to teach a bunch of people his dance steps. Clearly it grew and really, made itself into a business. Did James really have a set of moves that he thought, mmmm these moves are Ceroc, or did he need a name for the type of dancing that he did which at the time was very informal.

I do not know how accurate I am, I am part guessing but I believe that is how it happened. What is Ceroc?

I think we have become too wrapped up in someones dream that took over and have made an idea into what we think it should be.

I am even more convinced that Ceroc is fun and should be fun. It was never meant to be serious dancing which has enabled people like me for one to become a dancer. As good as I might be and what ever people say, I do not consider myself a dancer. I go through the motions, probably now get very technical but to me dancers sweat shed loads, works out 8 hours a day, can wrap both their knees behind their head and will probably never make any money.

I think we are in real danger of losing the plot. Ceroc has to be accesable to the masses. Yes people will improve and we cater for that as much as we can. But we must not lose sight of what Ceroc really is. An informal dance style, a way to meet people, and fun.

Politics, of course there is politics. Dance Demon mentioned some of the different groups teaching Modern Jive, LeJIve, Mo Jive Blitz. to name just three. What are they? Ceroc, They were all ceroc franchisees who left. Is the original company just going to give its business away, of course not. Is it one big happy family, of course not, why, because the whole thing is a business and money is involved.

James never wanted to get involved in competitions, I now believe he was right but he was pushed into it. Now we have them we cannot stop them. I am guilty myself of running a competition. :sorry

Any group that teaches an informal dance to a wide range of music where the dancers are in rows, the teacher is on the stage, there are two classes and a freestyle are doing Ceroc. ie they are using the Ceroc method.

The competition we are running, the Jive Masters proved very interesting in one particular aspect. The audience judge.
The people who would have usually been judging on many occasions have disagreed with the results. They were looking at the dancers technically. The audience are taken in by the crowd pleasing set pieces sometimes ignoring music interpretation completely. The audience appear able to judge swing, Jive, Tango, Blues, Tap, Ballroom in the same breath. They are able to see what pleases them and do not need masses of dance experience themselves.

Finally
"Have I said enough yet to prove that Ceroc Competitions like Ceroc taught people?"

Not sure I understand what you are saying Andy. Is it, you have to be part of the crowd to win, or are you saying that you need to be doing something similar to Ceroc to win a ceroc competition. If it is the former, I am sure you cannot be serious, therefore it must be the latter and I am not sure what your point is. It is like saying to win a football match you must be playing football.

Ceroc competitions like people who are dancing something recognisable as what it is we teach. Wherever they learn or whatever it is they dance. The judges should make the distinction other wise what is the point of the competition?

The Jive Masters however is completely the opposite. We have been inviting very different styles. The audience select who turns them on the most. I do not think any competition in the UK can claim this.

What is a competition anyway? People have mentioned sailing, Tennis, fencing. Sailing we go as fast as we can against the wnd, everyone who sails races, Tennis, we play to win, fencing, same as tennis. Dancing, we dance for pleasure. Ballroom and most other styles of dancing are easy to judge. Hand in wrong position, bad posture etc etc. Modern Jive, who are we trying to kid? Surely there can only be one judge if we are to compete and that has to be the audience.

If this has made no sense at all, it is 2.40am and I should have been in my bed ages ago. Lara Croft kept me up and then this




Adam

[Will]

Originally posted by cerocmetro
If this has made no sense at all, it is 2.40am and I should have been in my bed ages ago. Lara Croft kept me up and then this

Adam

Tomb Raider Rocks eh!
I'm still struggling to get to grips with the analogue controller though.