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Thread: The Iraq thread

  1. #21
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    Re: The Iraq thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Actually, no I would not.

    First, 'getting rid of a murderous dictator' is not a permissible reason for invading a country, and would be illegal under the UN Charter.

    Second, if that were the reason, then why would we not be ridding Zimbabwe of its murderous dictator? How about North Korea?

    This is the feeble justification Blair has offered recently - 'look, maybe the war was or wasn't justified as far as weapons of mass destruction are concerned, but at least we got rid of a nasty dictator'.

    Question: what's the purpose of getting rid of a murderous dictator of another country? Answer, presumably, to reduce the incidence of death, destruction, injury and misery in that country. Do you see anything like that happening in Iraq?
    Good thing you're not most people then!

    But seriously, my point wasn't whether such an action would be justified or legal, but more the fact that the public would generally be happier to be told the truth in the first place rather than a bunch of lies.

  2. #22
    Registered User andystyle's Avatar
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    Re: The Iraq thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Second, if that were the reason, then why would we not be ridding Zimbabwe of its murderous dictator? How about North Korea?
    I'm glad someone mentioned it in passing. I would have been more comfortable if Britain had gine into Zimbabwe - not to depose a dictator, but to assist British nationals and colonials who were being targeted by Mugabe's regime. That's what the Services are there for - to protect this nation's interests. Iraq wasn't protecting our interests, although the attempt was made to make it look this way. Now, Britain is viewed negatively overseas due to it's actions and association with the US. Perhaps most telling is the view that Iraq is now worse off than iut was under Saddam.

    Incidentally, as an aside, the general feeling from South Koreans is that the country will be reunified within the next 10-15 years. That will cause the South Korean economy no end of hassle!

  3. #23
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The Iraq thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Actually, no I would not.
    Weeellll.... Like Gav, I'd have been more OK with it, because it would have been honest at least.

    Of course, they couldn't say that, because as you say, it'd have been illegal, opening up the prospect of future war crimes tribunals etc.

    So to preserve the appearance of propriety, they had to manufacture a casus belli - which had about as much believability as the Nazi justification for invading Poland in 1939 - and then acted surprised that people didn't believe them.

    So this gave the "Coalition" no moral authority - which meant that it had no international support, and so has led us to where we are now. Thanks for that, Tony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Second, if that were the reason, then why would we not be ridding Zimbabwe of its murderous dictator?
    No power projection or supine allies willing to stage from.

    Hmmm... Is Mugabe worse than Hussein? Economically, yes - but in terms of "murderous dictator", he's nowhere near as bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    How about North Korea?
    They've got nukes - plus, China's not historically too keen on invasions in that area for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    This is the feeble justification Blair has offered recently - 'look, maybe the war was or wasn't justified as far as weapons of mass destruction are concerned, but at least we got rid of a nasty dictator'.
    He was definitely a nasty dictator - and yes, it's easy to forget how truly evil the man was, or how scary the regime was to live in. But I doubt he managed to kill 150,000 Iraqis every year.

  4. #24
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: The Iraq thread

    Quote Originally Posted by andystyle View Post
    I'm glad someone mentioned it in passing. I would have been more comfortable if Britain had gine into Zimbabwe


    Ignoring the fact that the British Army is kind of busy at the moment on Tony's other crusades, and that even if it weren't, we haven't had that sort of power projection for at least 50 years, have you looked at a map?

    Zimbabwe's a landlocked country, surrounded by South Africa (south), Botswana (southwest), Zambia (northwest), and Mozambique (east). Which of those countries do you think would be willing to allow us to stage an invasion force?

    No, the only way to change Zimbabwe's regime is for South Africa to grow a pair, get over the old "Rebels together" mentality, and tell Mugabe in no uncertain terms to leave.

    Fortunately (!), Zimbabwe's in such a bad state now, the South African government pretty much has to act to preserve their own stability, so hopefully the next year or so will see that nasty old man gone.

  5. #25
    Registered User andystyle's Avatar
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    Re: The Iraq thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post

    Ignoring the fact that the British Army is kind of busy at the moment on Tony's other crusades, and that even if it weren't, we haven't had that sort of power projection for at least 50 years, have you looked at a map?

    Zimbabwe's a landlocked country, surrounded by South Africa (south), Botswana (southwest), Zambia (northwest), and Mozambique (east). Which of those countries do you think would be willing to allow us to stage an invasion force?

    No, the only way to change Zimbabwe's regime is for South Africa to grow a pair, get over the old "Rebels together" mentality, and tell Mugabe in no uncertain terms to leave.
    I was thinking more of when all this was happening in Zimbabwe before Iraq kicked off and British forces weren’t bogged down in the Middle East. Besides, I wasn’t talking about practicalities – we’ve been talking about justification for war, not logistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Fortunately (!), Zimbabwe's in such a bad state now, the South African government pretty much has to act to preserve their own stability, so hopefully the next year or so will see that nasty old man gone.
    Fingers crossed.

  6. #26
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    Re: The Iraq thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    Good thing you're not most people then!

    But seriously, my point wasn't whether such an action would be justified or legal, but more the fact that the public would generally be happier to be told the truth in the first place rather than a bunch of lies.
    Well, in that case, what you should have said is this.

    "If we'd been told that the reasons for invading were that George Bush was determined to finish off a job which his father had been prevented from seeing through, so that invasion plans were being drawn up before he was sworn in and to the extent that he was so busy watching Iraq that he missed the approach paths to the World Trade Centre, but made a brilliant recovery in persuading the American people that somehow Saddam Hussein was involved in the terrorist attack..."

    ...because getting rid of a dictator was NOT what it was really about.

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    Re: The Iraq thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Well, in that case, what you should have said is this.
    {blah}
    Yeah, what he said

    and if I weren't a lazy tw4t, I probably would have.

  8. #28
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    Re: The Iraq thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post


    Ignoring the fact that the British Army is kind of busy at the moment on Tony's other crusades, and that even if it weren't, we haven't had that sort of power projection for at least 50 years, have you looked at a map?

    Zimbabwe's a landlocked country, surrounded by South Africa (south), Botswana (southwest), Zambia (northwest), and Mozambique (east). Which of those countries do you think would be willing to allow us to stage an invasion force?

    No, the only way to change Zimbabwe's regime is for South Africa to grow a pair, get over the old "Rebels together" mentality, and tell Mugabe in no uncertain terms to leave.

    Fortunately (!), Zimbabwe's in such a bad state now, the South African government pretty much has to act to preserve their own stability, so hopefully the next year or so will see that nasty old man gone.
    O, I see. So what you're saying is it isn't how nasty the dictator is, but we should just pick off the easy ones?

  9. #29
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    Re: The Iraq thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    O, I see. So what you're saying is it isn't how nasty the dictator is, but we should just pick off the easy ones?
    Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying

    Oh hold on, I forgot I was talking to a lawyer .

    What I'm saying is that the invasion and occupation of Iraq was:
    • Possibly wrong in an absolute sense (balancing good vs. bad results after 4 years)
    • Arguably illegal (depending on who does the arguing)
    • Likely done for all the wrong reasons (neocon mania, personal animosity etc.)
    • Certainly bungled (600K+ casualties after the war "ended").


    Clear?

    As for Zimbabwe - yes, it's realistically impossible as well as morally debatable to contemplate military action, the two aren't compatible.

    And short of a situation where we're facing another Nazi threat, then practicality has to be involved somewhere - I don't see us advocating invading the Communist dictatorship of Chine, for example.

  10. #30
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    Re: The Iraq thread

    Looking for a gift to celebrate the Iraq War's 5th birthday? Then look no further - why not try the Iraq edition of Monopoly ?

  11. #31
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: The Iraq thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Trouble View Post
    But if they pull out our troops, wont it be even worse murderous chaos there and more innocent civilians being killed?
    You wont get any kind of answer to that question for those who want the troops pulled out

    Id probably have a phased withdrawal and assume the 500,000 or so who would die as a result wouldnt hit the uk papers after a few weeks

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