Forum "direction"

[David Bailey]

Inspired by this quote:

maybe its the way the forum has headed recently that has made people like myself and rocky feel that we always have to defend it.

I've certainly noticed what I believe are more "defending Ceroc" posts by, well, Ceroc operators over the past few months. Obviously, I'm not MartinHarper so can't put numbers on it, but I wondered if anyone else has observed this, or am I imagining things?

If so, why? Is it because of the migration of experienced independents to other places (e.g. MJDA)? Ceroc's recent "bolotics"? General bolshieness? Just one of those regular things like sunspots? Alien mind rays?Or what?

And if so, what can be done about it?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Inspired by this quote:

I've certainly noticed what I believe are more "defending Ceroc" posts by, well, Ceroc operators over the past few months. Obviously, I'm not MartinHarper so can't put numbers on it, but I wondered if anyone else has observed this, or am I imagining things?

If so, why? Is it because of the migration of experienced independents to other places (e.g. MJDA)? Ceroc's recent "bolotics"? General bolshieness? Just one of those regular things like sunspots? Alien mind rays?Or what?

And if so, what can be done about it?

Ceroc has been quite active of late and I don't think anyone has been overly critical. I'd go far as to say some have been overly defensive in fact This is a discussion forum, discussion is generally good. It can be frustrating when people react aggressively to a questioning post and turn everyone off the subject at hand, and I think it is this type of response that has given this "theme" of anti-Cerocness that does not in fact exist.

From the thread quoted above - Rockys reply to DJs quote of : "But the teacher was talking rubbish" is the flat, factually stated opinion that "DJ suggesting that the teacher was lying" when his comment says nothing of the sort. The teacher will probably not be privy to exact ticket sales and "talking rubbish" points out that the teacher is wrong on this occasion...but lying ? My point is simply, why is Rocky using this tone? Why not just say "the teacher probably didn't know how many tickets were sold" ? why turn a simple comment into an insult ?

Lynn said "the teacher is misinformed, or the teacher is telling porkies" again this isn't an aggressive statement - it suggest confusion over facts. Notice the OR, its not , as Rocky says , "Lynn suggesting that the teacher was lying". By the tone, Lynn is suggesting the information is wrong somewhere along the line. Notice the aggressive tone is coming from Rocky.

So if there appears to be an increase in "defending Ceroc" posts, its probably due to people overreacting to perceived slights on Ceroc rather than any actual "anti Ceroc" posts.

As Lynn said to Rocky : "Why are you so determined that any critical comments about Ceroc must be some sort of conspiracy theory or witch hunt?"

and then theres this....

Absolutely.

But Ceroc's recent anti-choice actions haven't exactly endeared it to some people, was my point - ably demonstrated on this very thread.

So it's easier to believe Bad Things about Ceroc now than it was a year ago, that's a "loss of goodwill" cost I guess.

which is labelled "Politics from DJ" by Rocky. It is not politics, its simply opinion and to label it "Politics" seems to be a prompt for the rest of us to dismiss DJs comment as some attempt to undermine Cerocs good name. Give us some credit, we CAN like something and still be critical
Some of us can also see Rockys comments as trolling

[dave the scaffolder]

One thing to remember about ceroc and all of the people employed by them is that ceroc has introduced thousands of people to dancing who would not have taken up this excellent hobby without them. In my humble opinion i think ceroc has done more to civilise men, in particular, than anything i can think of over the last number of years. Ceroc teaches a set format that most people pick up quickly and enables them to accept teaching in a fun and enjoyable way. Where ceroc could improve is in teaching advanced moves to people who think they can handle them. All in all a big WELL DONE to ceroc for introducing dancing to the masses. xxx xxx

[straycat]

So (as concerns the initial premise) - that'd be a Yes, then.

I go for the Alien mind rays theory, myself.

[Andy McGregor]

Where ceroc could improve is in teaching advanced moves to people who think they can handle them.

I didn't even know there were any advanced moves. But if there were you'd find it really hard to teach them to the group of dancers who "think they can handle them".

[jivecat]

I go for the Alien mind rays theory, myself.

Complete rubbish! (With respect, natch.) Forumite minds are resonating in response to fiery vibrations from sunspot activity. It's so obvious when you want to believe it.

[David Bailey]

Complete rubbish! (With respect, natch.) Forumite minds are resonating in response to fiery vibrations from sunspot activity. It's so obvious when you want to believe it.

Well, I can't argue with that.

Actually, I'm trying to discuss forum direction, rather than Ceroc direction.

My half-formed (and half-baked, I'm sure) theory is as follows, because some people who are advanced dancers / teachers, but not completely affiliated with Ceroc, have left or reduced their presence here, this Forum atmosphere has turned into much more like a two-group set: "Ceroc organisers" and "Ceroc customers" - there's less blurring around the middle than there was.

Which means that some discussions will naturally be more polarised than they were - for example, I wouldn't expect most in the "Ceroc organisers" camp to go out of their way to praise events such as Funky Lush / Jango, or non-Ceroc weekenders. So that engenders an attitude of mutual defensiveness in both camps.

Anyway, that's my theory - what do other people think?

[Andy McGregor]

Well, I can't argue with that.

Actually, I'm trying to discuss forum direction, rather than Ceroc direction.

My half-formed (and half-baked, I'm sure) theory is as follows, because some people who are advanced dancers / teachers, but not completely affiliated with Ceroc, have left or reduced their presence here, this Forum atmosphere has turned into much more like a two-group set: "Ceroc organisers" and "Ceroc customers" - there's less blurring around the middle than there was.

Which means that some discussions will naturally be more polarised than they were - for example, I wouldn't expect most in the "Ceroc organisers" camp to go out of their way to praise events such as Funky Lush / Jango, or non-Ceroc weekenders. So that engenders an attitude of mutual defensiveness in both camps.

Anyway, that's my theory - what do other people think?

As one of those people who has been alienated into "reduced presence" by this pincer movement of Ceroc Organisers and Ceroc customers - with a little help from changes to the forum I can confirm that the Forum "direction" has changed. I'm still sailing on the same course, but Ceroc Ltd and the Scottish Ceroc Forum is not. I believe that it's still Franck at the helm but I also believe that he's receiving new direction from the race tactician and probably different forecasts from his meterologist

Speaking personally, I regret these changes and miss the Forum as it used to be and miss the people who have moved on, some of them have even PM'd me to say "goodbye" Times change and some people are distanced by those changes - I'm one of those people. At the moment the forum's course change has only resulted in a little separation and I can still be heard calling across the water "you're going the wrong way, that way lies turbulence". But my voice will become fainter and fainter as the distance between us increases. One day I will be just a dot on the horizon and the next day I will be a blip that suddenly disappears from the forum's radar

[Double Trouble]

But my voice will become fainter and fainter as the distance between us increases. One day I will be just a dot on the horizon and the next day I will be a blip that suddenly disappears from the forum's radar

That day, Andy, will be a sad one.

[under par]

without wanting to try and find examples cos I'm lazy and at work my impression of the last 6months on the forum have been generally good.

Its far busier than it used to be and there are many new contributers as well as loads of us old gits still hanging about.

The pro ceroc/anti ceroc camps do appear to become a little more volatile/vociferous and the ability to have an opinion pro or con ceroc now leads to more heat being generated than is absolutely neccesary (IMHO)on what is a dance forum.

It personally makes me less willing to contribute on the forum as I'm a sort of middle of the road/this is a fun hobby/lets try and make people smile sort of person .

But i am still here and I keep reading posts but generally post less.

Some may consider less of my drivel a good thing though but you can't please everyone.

[Gav]

It personally makes me less willing to contribute on the forum as I'm a sort of middle of the road/this is a fun hobby/lets try and make people smile sort of person .

Some may consider less of my drivel a good thing though but you can't please everyone.

I just ignore the pro/anti ceroc drivel, personally.

[Dreadful Scathe]

I just ignore the pro/anti ceroc drivel, personally.

I just ignore everyone and type nonsense

[frodo]

My half-formed (and half-baked, I'm sure) theory is as follows, because some people who are advanced dancers / teachers, but not completely affiliated with Ceroc, have left or reduced their presence here, this Forum atmosphere has turned into much more like a two-group set: "Ceroc organisers" and "Ceroc customers" - there's less blurring around the middle than there was.

Perhaps it isn't so much who is leaving, but a change in how affiliated the average new member is with Ceroc.

Also existing members may have become much more affiliated, and act/change their viewpoints accordingly.


However it doesn't necessarily take more than the occasional vocal individual to change the forum direction, so maybe there isn't a statistically valid cause at all.

[David Bailey]

OK, if people feel this "polarisation" is happening, and if they feel this is not a Good Thing, are there any suggestions for what can we do to change things? Or is this just an inevitable development?

[Lynn]

OK, if people feel this "polarisation" is happening, and if they feel this is not a Good Thing, are there any suggestions for what can we do to change things? Or is this just an inevitable development?

Well I probably could have just shut up on that recent thread. I was aware of that and annoyed that my posts were contributing to the 'discussion' continuing. But I don't like being misunderstood so felt I had to keep explaining myself and repeating my point as calmly as I could. And I don't like feeling bullied into 'backing down'. (Note I said feeling, I'm not saying that was happening, but that's how it felt to me).

Not sure if anything can be done to change things. I'm currently trying hard to remain involved in this forum, as there are a lot of really great people on here, who I enjoy engaging with and whose posts I enjoy reading. But I am tending to post more on other dance forums.

[Franck]

OK, if people feel this "polarisation" is happening, and if they feel this is not a Good Thing, are there any suggestions for what can we do to change things? Or is this just an inevitable development?

I think it's an inevitable (but temporary) step.

From my perspective, it looks like a few 'Ceroc heads' are standing up and being counted. Adding their opinion (sometimes a bit too forcefully ), which has to be a good thing. I remember a year back when Ceroc crew felt intimidated by the general 'anti-ceroc' mood on the forum, and as a result, we got complaints that Ceroc were never posting and giving their perspective.
I think a certain amount of polarization will happen, after all, most Commercial Operators have been conspicuous in avoiding painting their competition in a positive light (not just Ceroc operators)... This is just human nature, and most people who get involved in MJ events and classes feel strongly about it, and all Ceroc Teachers and Franchisees, are very protective or what they've built. I often refer to all the classes in Scotland as my children!

[drathzel]

all Ceroc Teachers and Franchisees, are very protective or what they've built. I often refer to all the classes in Scotland as my children!

my class are my babies too

[Rocky]

Ceroc has been quite active of late and I don't think anyone has been overly critical. I'd go far as to say some have been overly defensive in fact This is a discussion forum, discussion is generally good.

Presumably you mean discussion is generally good as long as I don't challenge what you say?

It can be frustrating when people react aggressively to a questioning post and turn everyone off the subject at hand, and I think it is this type of response that has given this "theme" of anti-Cerocness that does not in fact exist.

Do you want me to hook out all your anti Ceroc posts DS? How easily people forget what they have posted.

From the thread quoted above - Rockys reply to DJs quote of : "But the teacher was talking rubbish" is the flat, factually stated opinion that "DJ suggesting that the teacher was lying" when his comment says nothing of the sort.

In your opinion, my opinion is different and as we have all agreed I have right to my opinion and a right to express it. It's funny that you don't think that saying someone is 'talking rubbish' is not aggressive! If I just responded to your entire post with 'Your talking rubbish DS' how do you think people would respond? It's double standards again. Anyone posting who is not a Ceroc teacher or a franchisee can say what they like, anyone who posts who works for Ceroc and challenges what has been said seems to be viewed as some poor lacky toeing the company line.

The teacher will probably not be privy to exact ticket sales and "talking rubbish" points out that the teacher is wrong on this occasion...but lying ? My point is simply, why is Rocky using this tone? Why not just say "the teacher probably didn't know how many tickets were sold" ? why turn a simple comment into an insult ?

There's no question what the 'tone' of this thread was insinuating: Hyping, mis-information etc. etc. Someone doesn't have to physically say 'lying' for one to read between the lines. As for conspiracy, witch hunt etc. etc. No one seems to have asked the question 'Why did Jivelad post in the first place?' He went to an event heard something about a weekender that he found confusing and instead of simply phoning or emailing the organizers (surely the quickest, easiest and most reliable route?)to get it straight from the horses mouth, he posts an open question on the forum. Why do you think that was? Pretty simple really - he wanted to make an issue out of it.

As it turns out of course the figure of 50% was accurate (sorry, 46%), but lets not get confused with the facts!

which is labelled "Politics from DJ" by Rocky. It is not politics, its simply opinion and to label it "Politics" seems to be a prompt for the rest of us to dismiss DJs comment as some attempt to undermine Cerocs good name. Give us some credit, we CAN like something and still be critical

'It's not politics it's just an opinion' What are you havering on about? (That's your term by the way in case you start to accuse me of being aggressive again ). An opinion can't be political?? What's that all about? DJ knew exactly what he was doing...

I just ignore everyone and type nonsense

Oops! Sorry, didn't see this bit - should we then disregard your entire previous post as nonsense?

[Gav]

Oops! Sorry, didn't see this bit - should we then disregard your entire previous post as nonsense?

I'd suggest that's a good tactic for anything you read on any internet forum

[Baruch]

It can be frustrating when people react aggressively to a questioning post and turn everyone off the subject at hand, and I think it is this type of response that has given this "theme" of anti-Cerocness that does not in fact exist.

Do you want me to hook out all your anti Ceroc posts DS? How easily people forget what they have posted.

Rocky: a critical friend is not the same as an enemy. Being occasionally critical of Ceroc doesn't mean that somebody is "anti-Ceroc". Ceroc is not perfect, nor is any other MJ company. A bit of criticism can be a good thing, and every dance company would stand to gain by listening to its customers' opinions.

Of course, in some cases "anti-Ceroc" (or anti-another-MJ-provider) posts could be justified based on the actions of the company (or franchise) in question, but if you simply take an aggressive "Ceroc shouldn't be criticised" approach you would tend to miss that and throw the baby out with the bath water.

A little calming down all round is what's needed, in my opinion. Nobody wins if everyone just argues in circles all the time.