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Thread: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    A few years back, it may have been th 2003 National Champs (C2D), two team eneterd the team event with a Roxanne routine. As I remember, and I apologise if I've got my facts wrong, the Notts team had to pull out because the other Team (Graham & Sarah plus Clayton & Jeanine) had the rights ... think it had been coreographed by Nicky Haslam. Is this right or did I only get a partial story. Can a cabret team put 'dibs' on a track?

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    I don't know if this applies in this case but in Australia some comps have/had a ruling that there a song could be used by only one cabaret entry - and was it was decided on a first come first served basis.

    as to copyright - you can copyright the actually routine (the unique combination of moves and styling) - and if you have editied re-mixed or written the music that as as well but I don't see how you could copy some elses music....

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    A few years back, it may have been th 2003 National Champs (C2D), two team eneterd the team event with a Roxanne routine. As I remember, and I apologise if I've got my facts wrong, the Notts team had to pull out because the other Team (Graham & Sarah plus Clayton & Jeanine) had the rights ... think it had been coreographed by Nicky Haslam. Is this right or did I only get a partial story. Can a cabret team put 'dibs' on a track?

    Without going into every detail.

    Graham and Sarah bought the rights to the routine and to that music that went with the routine from nicky haslam.

    The Nots team therefore could not use that routine in full to that peice of music in full but they did perform the routine with permision from Graham and Sarah but for entertainment purposes only and not as part of the competition.

    For the record, this had nothing to do with Claton or Jeanine.

    Why the question Gus???

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    Why the question Gus???
    Perhaps he just wants an answer ?

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    If Fred creates a routine to "Roxanne", then Fred owns copyright to his routine. If George dances Fred's routine, then he may violate Fred's copyright. If George creates an entirely different routine to "Roxanne", then George owns copyright to his routine, and does not violate Fred's copyright.

    The difficulty comes George's routine is influenced by Fred's routine. If the influence is too great, then George may be in violation of Fred's copyright. If Fred is a litigious SOB, then he can make random incoherent legal threats and hope to scare event organisers into banning George from performing his routine, even though the routines are very different.

    (I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice)

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by Achaeco View Post
    Why the question Gus???
    As DS said ... just wanted the answer ... you know how it is as you slip into senility, you rake over things in the past ..... and to be honest your answer doesn't make any sense to me. No one, outside those that hold the rights to Roxanne, can give 'permission' to dnace to it. Am I missing the point but just because X has choreographed a routine to track 1, that doesn't stop Z also choreougraphing a routine. From memory they were very different routines. I fing it even more amusing as the track was already 'choreographed' ... in the film itself ... so who is in a position to 'give rights'?????

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    I have seen a couple of English showcases which are very very similar to ones I have seen on videos of top American pros.

    Would this be breaching copyright rules ?


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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    If it reminds you of someone else's work then there are elements of plagiarism in their somewhere. I remember I thought that years ago when there was the kylie dance routine at C2D blackpool, Kylie music, some kylie dance moves and kylie costumes - not all of it, just enough that it screamed Kylie!! I wouldn't say this is necessarily a bad thing, after all, you cant have a tribute to something without making spectators think of that thing

    Quote Originally Posted by MH
    If Fred is a litigious SOB, then he can make random incoherent legal threats
    Indeed and its much more prevalent where someone makes money where you didn't. Look at the recent Da Vinci Code law suits; "we published stuff about this and made no money, now that you have, we want some because there are lots of coincidental similarities, which, when added together, amount to a whole LOT of coincidental similarities"

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    If Fred creates a routine to "Roxanne", then Fred owns copyright to his routine. If George dances Fred's routine, then he may violate Fred's copyright. If George creates an entirely different routine to "Roxanne", then George owns copyright to his routine, and does not violate Fred's copyright.

    The difficulty comes George's routine is influenced by Fred's routine. If the influence is too great, then George may be in violation of Fred's copyright. If Fred is a litigious SOB, then he can make random incoherent legal threats and hope to scare event organisers into banning George from performing his routine, even though the routines are very different.

    (I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice)
    This is, of course, completely made up in the fevered imagination of Mr Harper. AFAIK you can not copyright a dance routine - any more than you can copyright a way of walking or standing.

    There are certain ethics that need to be considered. But ethics and the law are, in my experience, unrelated.

    I remember the event and was surprised that the people from C2D fell for it. After all, it must be easy to judge the performance of two similar routines danced to the same music. I remember that the second routine was danced in the evening, after the competition. There were fireworks, there was smoke, there was a massive cast and the outfits were fabulous. They must have rehearsed for months and spent a lot of money. And they couldn't compete because the organisers allowed themselves to be bullied

    I remember hearing that Graham LeClerc had presented the organisers with a letter from Nicky Haslam giving him permission to use "her" (Nicky Haslam's) routine. The fact that the routine could not be copyrighted wasn't considered and the second team was not allowed to compete because they didn't have a letter.

    At the next competition I enter I will present a letter from Michel Ange Lau and James Cronin saying that I can use the dance they invented. Nobody else will have such a letter everyone else will not be allowed to compete. I'll probably still come second

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This is, of course, completely made up in the fevered imagination of Mr Harper. AFAIK you can not copyright a dance routine - any more than you can copyright a way of walking or standing.
    Personally, I think that you're wrong Andy. As a substantial piece of work, I'd say that you can copyright a complete dance routine. Of course, I can't imagine that anyone would go to the bother....

    And I have to say that your analogy is flawed. A way of walking or standing might be equated more to a single move than a complete routine to a piece of music. And we know that you can't copyright moves.

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This is, of course, completely made up in the fevered imagination of Mr Harper. AFAIK you can not copyright a dance routine - any more than you can copyright a way of walking or standing.
    According to the 1988 Copyright act, you can certainly copyright literary, dramatic, artistic or musical works.

    In fact, the act specifically states
    "dramatic work" includes a work of dance or mime;
    So you certainly can copyright a dance routine in theory.

    Whether, in the real world, such copyright can be enforced for a MJ routine, is a different matter of course. But yes, the phrase "legal action" can be pretty effective in terms of intimidation - even if you win, you'll lose because of the time and effort spent in defending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    At the next competition I enter I will present a letter from Michel Ange Lau and James Cronin saying that I can use the dance they invented. Nobody else will have such a letter everyone else will not be allowed to compete. I'll probably still come second
    Gotta be worth a try though

    Is it me, or has the MJ world got more litigious in the past few years? Or is that just that the UK in general is more litigious now?

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    AFAIK you can not copyright a dance routine - any more than you can copyright a way of walking or standing.
    This is, of course, completely made up in the fevered imagination of Mr McGregor.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    This is, of course, completely made up in the fevered imagination of Mr Harper. AFAIK you can not copyright a dance routine - any more than you can copyright a way of walking or standing.
    AFAIK... doesn't that stand for "In my own fevered imagination"?

    IMOFI - acually I think I might start using that as a standard forum acronym.
    It would go well with IMOFO (In My Own Fevered Opinion), which would make a nice change from IMO or IMHO, and would usually be a lot more applicable. IMOFO.
    Last edited by straycat; 22nd-February-2007 at 03:09 PM.

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    David Brent should have copywritten his "Impromptu Christmas Charity Dance", then SimonR wouldn't have been able to put it into his new showcase....

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    David Brent should have copywritten his "Impromptu Christmas Charity Dance", then SimonR wouldn't have been able to put it into his new showcase....
    you made me laugh as i was drinkng now i have to clean my lap top

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    I would think that if you wanted to quote copyright, first you must copyright it in the relevant country.
    I am not a lawyer though.

    Putting a caberet routine that has been used as a team ball routine 2 years previous into a competition would be seen as laughable in the Aussie circuit (sometimes ball routines performed that same year are entered into comps, coz it is nice to show off), but the routine in question was an Aussie team ball routine and had not been seen in England, so it was a different audience.

    Having danced in the original team routine (taught to us and corried by Nicky Haslam) for a ball in 2001, it was strange seeing it performed 2 years later in the UK as a showcase. There were some modifications made to enable it to be performed as a showcase, so there were differences between the "team" and the "showcase" versions.

    As Yl mentioned, there was a ruling in Aussie champs that you could not use the same music as another entrant. So everyone knew, before you start to corrie, reserve the music with the champs you want to enter that year. This saved the bordom factor for the audience.
    More recently with late entries, entries from other countries and interstate, the ruling was relaxed, so as not to disapoint people who had spent some months working out routines only to find they should have reserved the music.
    If the music clashes now in CA Sydney, the first people to register have the option to negotiate the order of the contestants and go before or after the other participants with the same music.

    Idealy I would still like to see different music for each caberet or team performance, rule being, first to register gets the choice of music.

    When it comes to Caberets my biggest disapointment was in 2003, trying to register for the London comp. They wanted video tape of the routine by a certain date, which we could not give, because the routine was still being corried. This also effected another couple from Sydney, so there were 2 less caberet entrants from Aus in that comp. (OK some might say, there were enough entries from the blo*dy aussies that year)

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    I would think that if you wanted to quote copyright, first you must copyright it in the relevant country.
    I am not a lawyer though.
    You're probably thinking of trademarking? Trademarks need to be registered in countries of use, whereas copyright just is; the creator of an original work is generally deemed to have the copyright for that work, although it's helpful to assert that copyright in case you need to enforce it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    (OK some might say, there were enough entries from the blo*dy aussies that year)
    Australians seem to be very experienced at planning and rehearsing routines - more so than us in the UK, I think.

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Australians seem to be very experienced at planning and rehearsing routines - more so than us in the UK, I think.
    Och bit laddie, yer firgettin that well kent, nay Famous, wee lassie fray Edniburg
    oor very ayn LINDSAY BROON

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?

    Quote Originally Posted by RoyBoy View Post
    Och bit laddie, yer firgettin that well kent, nay Famous, wee lassie fray Edniburg
    oor very ayn LINDSAY BROON
    Steady on old chap, is there and English language version of this?

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    Re: Cabaret Routines - copyright?


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