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Thread: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    From this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    There's a common thing which a lot of leaders do, probably in a lot of dances (I've come across it in MJ and Lindy, and I certainly used to do it - after someone picked up on it, I had to work pretty hard to iron it out of my dancing) - that's the tendency to establish connection when you think you're about to need it (to actively lead part of a move) - as opposed to maintainng it consistently throughout a move, even though it's more of a passive thing much of the time.
    Interesting...

    It's often said that if a move goes wrong, it's the lead's fault (if the follower isn't backleading or anticipating). When I was taxi-ing, I used to tell beginners that the lead's role was to, er, lead and the follower's role was to maintain the connection (not using those exact too-technical words but would take too long to type) so that they could follow (without backleading/anticipating). For example, a good way of stopping new leads from gripping - before it became habit - was to tell them that it was "my" (the follower's) job to make sure that they didn't lose the lead's hand - so no need for them to grip.

    Ignoring (for the moment) improvisation, which would make this post far too long and complicated, if I lose connection in a dance, I assume it's my fault - and sometimes it certainly will be. However, I hadn't really thought about the lead 'dropping' the connection - perhaps it's not always my fault...

    Can a follower retain some connection with the lead if they have dropped it? Obviously, the physical (hand to hand etc) contact is there but that don't necessarily mean it's connected.

    Is there any way to tell who has let the connection slip - i.e. to know whether I should be looking at the log in my own eye? Is there anything I can do (as a follower) to get the leader to gimme back some connection? - without the Evilness of doing something that's not been led (assuming it's not an improv. moment) Perhaps this is the subconscious reason that some followers still move when nothing is led - we're trying (again, subconsciously, at least in my case) to get a missing connection back? I dunno.

    *Is* it ever appropriate to drop the connection? - e.g. for allowing the follower to improvise? - and if so, how do you pick it up again to say "Enough" - either as a lead or as a follower? I remember one of Franck's BFG workshops touching on this (must dig out the DVD) - but would be interested to hear anyone's thoughts
    Last edited by LMC; 8th-February-2007 at 11:29 PM. Reason: gRammere :rolleyes:

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    I can't agree more with your point that it is my (the follow) job to maintain the connection.
    However... there are instances where the lead can make that job much harder than what it already is.
    A tendency we have in MJ is (sometimes) to use 'finger tip' connection. i.e. trying to connect with just the finger tips, or even with open hands or even through the back of the hand. It's still possible to connect that way - sometimes it's part of the fun - but it is inherently more difficult and 'risky' than connecting to the lead's palm and fingers with the whole length of the follow's fingers (which is what is thaught in WCS by the pros - they hate it when we have open hands and don't mould our fingers around theirs).

    At first I was a bit sceptical about that, I kinda thought, whatever, as long as I have one point of contact I can be connected. But when I started to try (actually I still am) I realised how much a difference it could make to following accurately. And now I notice it straight away when I dance WCS with people who have what I'd call that 'MJ handhold' as very often they simply won't let me cup their hand and fingers - and it does make my job (follow accurately) a bit more difficult.

    It still see it as my responsibility to maintain the connection, but it's up to the lead to decide how difficult he wants to make it - .

    Now on a different note, if I am connected (hand to hand) and the leader's arm goes all floppy, then I'd go 'what do you want? ', if I have momentum I'll keep going where I was intending to go to, if not, then I'll freeze (or possibly wobble ). I might start improvising if I realise that it's probably what he wanted me to do and I'm inspired. That I don't take the responsibility for: their fault, I'm here, they have dropped the connection.

    And about dropping the connection to 'lead' an improvisation: doesn't work for me, I can only be invited to improvise and I need some connection to remain if I choose not to improvise. I hate it when guys 'force' you to improvise 'do you own stuff now' kind of thing, and won't re-establish connection until you have wiggled (which is what they usually expect ) enough. .

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    Question Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC
    I hadn't really thought about the lead 'dropping' the connection - perhaps it's not always my fault...
    There is a school of thought that the leader should lead the size of the connecting force. According to that approach, if the leader is not pushing into the follower's hand, the follower shouldn't push into the leader's hand. After all, maybe the leader doesn't want to connect with that hand, and is just holding hands to be tidy.

    My current feeling is that in MJ it's more appropriate for the follower to continuously maintain connection by always pushing (very gently) into the leader's hand. With this approach the only way that connection can be lost is if the leader lets go. This simplifies the dance, which is part of the thrust of the Modern Jive approach to dancing.

    I'm not wildly certain about this: like LMC, I'd appreciate input from more experienced folks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro
    ... won't re-establish connection until you have wiggled (which is what they usually expect )
    To be fair, it's what we usually get. Wiggles at weekly dances, bodyrolls at weekenders.

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Mmmm. Interesting - my head's a bit fuzzed from this evening's teaching, and it's late... but a couple of things that come to mind.

    My point was mainly about keeping the connection through one move - and there's certainly a lot of schools of thought about it (of course - it also depends on the move) - with a Lindy swingout (open to open) for example, you start with a left-to-right handhold, come together and establish that full connection (right-to-left) for the turn, then separate. The mistake I used to make was to drop the left-to-right connection for much of the move, because I didn't think it was being used. Nowadays I try to maintain the connection for most of the dance - there are times when I drop it (solo improvisations, for example) - but if I have a left-to-right handhold, I usually try to maintain connection most of the time.

    Follower's job to maintain connection? Can't comment really about WCS, but I find that to get it right really takes both parties. A follower can't (I believe) maintain connection unless the leader is actively doing the same - and early on in my learning-connection days, I'd sometimes lose it without knowing how it got lost - maintaining it can be quite a fine line sometimes - and it's possible to unwittingly 'deactivate' it by sending the wrong signal.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    My current feeling is that in MJ it's more appropriate for the follower to continuously maintain connection by always pushing (very gently) into the leader's hand. With this approach the only way that connection can be lost is if the leader lets go
    One easy way to lose it would simply be for the leader to completely relax his arm, and let all the tension go. Without that, the follower has nothing to push against, and connection is gone.

    More on this tomorrow - all very intriguing. The WCS stuff that Caro describes sounds a bit different from much of the connection work I've done in Blues, MJ and Lindy - I really need to learn some WCS and find out more...

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    *Is* it ever appropriate to drop the connection? - e.g. for allowing the follower to improvise? - and if so, how do you pick it up again to say "Enough" - either as a lead or as a follower?
    The lead's got to keep connection during improv for a variety of reasons. Floorcraft - the lead is still covering your blind-spots
    Also so you can cleanly hand the "lead" back after playing.

    In this case I'd argue that it's the difference between the lead listening (still connected but not leading anything) and the lead not paying attention (no connection).

    From the MJDA Fourm
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB
    You can Lead & Follow without a physical connection. You can have a connection without any Lead & Follow involved.
    They are different things. It is just that most of the time you use the connection primarily for lead & follow.
    The times I'd say you should drop the connection are
    1. Something's gone way wrong and if you don't bail on the move RIGHT NOW someone's going to get hurt.
    2. Your mind's gone . Stop, get your hash together, re-connect and start again.

    I don't think I've ever done it deliberately otherwise (being tired / distracted doesn't count)

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    From my point of view, continuous connection is difficult - it requires constant focus and concentration.

    So it's only natural that some lazy dancers (well, OK, most of us, me included ) only focus / concentrate that much when it's necessary, or when we remember that's what we should be doing.

    AT demands continuous connection, which is one of the many difficult things about it. After each AT dance, the relaxation I felt at the end was extreme - like I'd been holding my breath for the entire dance, and could now breathe normally again. Actually, that's still pretty much how it feels...

    On the plus side, continuous connection is both intimate and intense - you have someone who's focussing on you and nothing but you, for an entire three minutes. Which can be nice

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Like Ghost, I wonder if there's some confusion going on between physical connection and leading connection.

    I'd say that you'd always want to maintain a leading connection during a dance, even if there is a break in the physical connection. This requires both dancers to keep the connection going – and this involves such things as matching tension and eye contact.

    However, as straycat said, there's a tendency to only establish a strong leading connection when it is needed, rather than keeping it constantly maintained. I think this can be characterised as "leading on the 1", versus "continuous lead".

    As I've already said, I think a continuous lead is to be preferred – that way you always aware of your partner and what they are doing, and can keep leading them through every step (as required.)

    (Aside: I think this can be quite a subtle thing. Despite thinking I was maintaining a continuous connection, I was told by a teacher that I was only "leading on the 1". That was a while ago though, so maybe my lead has improved since then.)

    However, I've heard a WCS teacher say things like "you only need to lead on the 1 to start your partner moving, after which point she will lead herself up and down her slot as required." Quite how you lead turns and stops mid-pattern when you only lead on the one, I'm not quite sure, but I guess the point was that a continuous lead isn't needed – and I wonder if the message is really that in WCS you don't want a continuous connection.

    Like the others above me, I'd be interested in hearing what more experienced folks have to say...
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    However, I've heard a WCS teacher say things like "you only need to lead on the 1 to start your partner moving, after which point she will lead herself up and down her slot as required." Quite how you lead turns and stops mid-pattern when you only lead on the one, I'm not quite sure, but I guess the point was that a continuous lead isn't needed – and I wonder if the message is really that in WCS you don't want a continuous connection.

    Like the others above me, I'd be interested in hearing what more experienced folks have to say...
    Not that I am experienced at any form of dancing and WCS in particular, but what I understood from the teaching I received (and I am lucky enough to say it was mainly from the US pros, including a private) is:
    - it is true that once I am led down the slot on 1 (on slightly before that using rolling counts to be more precise), my rule is to go as far as I can down the slot unless I am led otherwise at some point - but although I don't need to be led all the way down the slot, there is still some connection remaining with my partner, not so much tension left in the arm but this is where I still need to 'cup' my partner's fingers - which will allow turns etc.
    So I see a difference between 'a continuous lead' and a 'continuous connection'. While the former is not required, the latter very much is.
    - my job once I am indeed down the slot, is to re-establish the connection through the arm tension (which doesn't really come from the arm but from my whole frame and is an indication that my body is connected) with my partner - and this happen on the anchor step, i.e. 'and a 5 and a 6'.

    I think a big mistake would be to indeed drop all connection on 'and a 2 and a 3 and a 4', although it will work for a simple under arm turn, it will make dancing more complicated moves much more difficult. Now I do agree it is a reduced connection compared to what happens on 'and a 5 and a 6 and a 1', where the new lead is initiated.

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post

    However, I've heard a WCS teacher say things like "you only need to lead on the 1 to start your partner moving, after which point she will lead herself up and down her slot as required." Quite how you lead turns and stops mid-pattern when you only lead on the one, I'm not quite sure, but I guess the point was that a continuous lead isn't needed – and I wonder if the message is really that in WCS you don't want a continuous connection.
    I’m no expert, but here’s my understanding which I (obviously ) think is pretty accurate.

    You lead the follower in the direction you want her to travel on the 1, and if you don’t lead anything else she’ll just pass you or keep going until you do something else (if you get out of the slot) or stop when she can’t go any further and head back to the original end (if you don’t). You do lead things on the other counts, or you couldn’t possibly perform even basic pattern like whips.

    The style of lead is different to MJ. Very different in fact. Rather than leading spins and turns as you would in MJ for instance, you prepare your partner for the moves over the preceding couple of counts and she spins herself. I think this is probably interpreted by many MJers as meaning that things like turns are not lead, because you do not help your partner through them or ‘’drag’’ them into the motion (for lack of a better term that isn’t lead), but in reality you have just lead it earlier than you would in MJ (and assumed that your partner is competent )

    Not everything is quite this clear cut of course. If I want to lead a surprise direction change in WCS then I do have to move my partner directly much like I would in MJ, but I can usually rely on the fact that my partner can triple step without needing to think about it if I’m leading them in freestyle, which makes it a little easier from the leads perspective.

    The slot and anchor step provides reliable conventions as well which frees both parties up to play a little more but still both know what’s going on.

    Note that although this means that the lead in WCS isn’t as continuous as it is in MJ, that doesn’t mean that you don’t stay connected. You really need to be paying attention to what your partner is doing as they are free to improvise, extend patterns and hijack as often as they like, and the structure of the dance encourages all these more than MJ. If you don’t maintain a constant connection that becomes much, much harder and makes you more likely to wrong-foot your partner.

    Edit: Caro beat me to it I'll have to whip her for that later.....

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    Edit: Caro beat me to it I'll have to whip her for that later.....
    looking forward to it

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by NZ Monkey View Post
    I’m no expert, but here’s my understanding which I (obviously ) think is pretty accurate.

    You lead the follower in the direction you want her to travel on the 1, and if you don’t lead anything else she’ll just pass you or keep going until you do something else (if you get out of the slot) or stop when she can’t go any further and head back to the original end (if you don’t). You do lead things on the other counts, or you couldn’t possibly perform even basic pattern like whips.

    The style of lead is different to MJ. Very different in fact. Rather than leading spins and turns as you would in MJ for instance, you prepare your partner for the moves over the preceding couple of counts and she spins herself. I think this is probably interpreted by many MJers as meaning that things like turns are not lead, because you do not help your partner through them or ‘’drag’’ them into the motion (for lack of a better term that isn’t lead), but in reality you have just lead it earlier than you would in MJ (and assumed that your partner is competent )

    Not everything is quite this clear cut of course. If I want to lead a surprise direction change in WCS then I do have to move my partner directly much like I would in MJ, but I can usually rely on the fact that my partner can triple step without needing to think about it if I’m leading them in freestyle, which makes it a little easier from the leads perspective.

    The slot and anchor step provides reliable conventions as well which frees both parties up to play a little more but still both know what’s going on.

    Note that although this means that the lead in WCS isn’t as continuous as it is in MJ, that doesn’t mean that you don’t stay connected. You really need to be paying attention to what your partner is doing as they are free to improvise, extend patterns and hijack as often as they like, and the structure of the dance encourages all these more than MJ. If you don’t maintain a constant connection that becomes much, much harder and makes you more likely to wrong-foot your partner.

    Edit: Caro beat me to it I'll have to whip her for that later.....

    When it comes to turning (or spinning) the lady in MJ she is, in fact prepped and I believe this has come from swing. As in a Wurlitzer, Ceroc Spin, First Move, Archiespin etc. The lady is slightly turned in one direction to then spin her in the other direction, like in a tuck turn in swing.

    On your connection point, don't forget that you don't actually have to have physical contact to stay connected. (Have you learnt nothing from Cat? She will find you and beat you ).

    M

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary View Post
    When it comes to turning (or spinning) the lady in MJ she is, in fact prepped and I believe this has come from swing. As in a Wurlitzer, Ceroc Spin, First Move, Archiespin etc. The lady is slightly turned in one direction to then spin her in the other direction, like in a tuck turn in swing.
    Sure she's prepped in MJ as well, but assisted through the spin. The leader doesn't just prep her and then let her go in MJ, which is what happens in WCS. We lead every beat (or are taught to at least...) in MJ, whereas that isn't quite true in WCS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary
    On your connection point, don't forget that you don't actually have to have physical contact to stay connected.
    True. It's a hell of a lot easier if you do though, and if you're already holding hands like you are 95% of the time.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary
    (Have you learnt nothing from Cat? She will find you and beat you )
    Would that be before or after I whip Caro? Oh dear...I seem to be getting a requtation.

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    I'm talking about leading connection - I know that you can have connection without physical contact (still have fond memories of Franck telling me off for stalking him - but he was LOOKING at me!)

    As straycat said in the original quote I nicked, consistent, although possibly passive, maintenance of the connection is not always easy.

    As a follower, it is very frustrating to be trying to maintain a connection by pushing gently against the lead's hand (as recommended) if the lead has spaghetti arms. Equally, trying to match tension when dancing with a yanker is more likely to get your arms ripped off than anything else.

    All the WCS stuff just sails over my head I'm afraid. I know it's the flavour of the month, but I have done exactly one workshop at a weekender, and can't 'take in' /take on another dance style right now. I'm sure what appears to be a prevailing obsession will calm down - after all, the AT one has become more localised now

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    All the WCS stuff just sails over my head I'm afraid. I know it's the flavour of the month....
    I'm outraged, how dare you Indign pagan!!!!

    WCS is... is like a burning passion, it's food for the soul, it's the sun in our lives, it's sugar in coffee, it's light in the darkness, it's the palm tree on the beach, it's the blood in our veins, it's the north on the map, it's mint in our breaths, it's the lips in a kiss, it's the cocoa in chocolate, it's the carrot on the snowman, it's the sweetness of a caress, it's carpet in the bedroom, it's a fire in the blizzard, it's a fresh breeze in hell; hell it's...
    a religion!


    you're not worthy...

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    WCS is... { snip }
    So, nothing like as intense as AT then?

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So, nothing like as intense as AT then?
    you're lucky AT happens to be my second religion, or I might have neg-repped you for that!!!

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    you're lucky AT happens to be my second religion, or I might have neg-repped you for that!!!
    OK, thanks. Let me just go wipe my brow in relief.

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    you're lucky AT happens to be my second religion, or I might have neg-repped you for that!!!
    That's one of the problems I have with religions - that centuries-long, dark, blood-soaked trend of - um - religious negrepping that has blighted our society...

    (bring back crucifiction, say I )

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    That's one of the problems I have with religions - that centuries-long, dark, blood-soaked trend of - um - religious negrepping that has blighted our society...
    are you really comparing me to those intolerant Inquisitors?

    (Heretics like you deserve that we re-introduce the holy Guillotine, say I )

    NZM prepare the pyre, please...
    Last edited by Caro; 9th-February-2007 at 06:46 PM.

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    Re: Connecting - "whether you need to or not?"

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    Is there anything I can do (as a follower) to get the leader to gimme back some connection? - without the Evilness of doing something that's not been led (assuming it's not an improv. moment)
    Ok I've thought about this some more....

    There's a Sacred Clowning exercise where one partner does their best to ignore the other and to just not be interested. The ignored clown does their best to get the other's attention ie re-establish the connection.

    The ways I particularly remember for re-establishing connection that someone else has dropped were

    Eye contact - it's hard not to have a connection with someone who's making eye contact
    Smiling - ditto
    Over the top / or just something very cool eg front splits or a one handed handstand
    Some other stuff about matching nenergy which is hard to describe, but you'd figure out in a couple of minutes of actually trying it.

    (Think young child trying to get attention but in a positive endearing way)

    Sometimes I lead a version of this a certain ladies. Basically I lead a comb with eye contact, pause for a beat then turn 180 and drop the connection entirely. (Actually this isn't entirely true - I give the illusion of dropping the connection; at that moment I'm very focussed on the connection because they're all
    Creative
    Playful
    and to varying degrees, Evil

    (and I've just turned my back on them )

    It's interesting to see the ways they try and get the connection back (naturally I'll go along with whatever they do, including running after them if they pretend to stalk off, at least I think she was pretending....)

    But it's something I only do every now and then when it suits the moment and only with very specific people.

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