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Thread: Frustrated Female

  1. #41
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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    I see this a lot on here - whilst I think I know what it means, how do you work on it? Surely it's a two way street?
    Working on connection.

    Phew – Big subject and difficult to know where to begin. To make a start try this.

    Use a mans belt (or if you know your partner very well – cling film) to bind the followers elbows to the side of her ribs. This will achieve the following – she will not be able to let her elbows go forward or backwards by more than an inch or so. Due to her elbows being trapped in this position she will not be able to allow her hand to go across her bodies centre line or way from her body by more than 30 degrees before she has to move her body to follow her hand. The whole point of this strange trapping of elbows is that when you lead a followers hand you want the whole of the woman to move – not just the hand. Connection is about the near instantaneous transmission of lead from the leaders hand to followers body. If the man provides a vague or indefinite lead then the woman has nothing to follow and has to at best guess what he wants. If there is a disconnect between the womans hand and the womans body then there is no way that the mans lead, given at the womans hand, can have any influence over her body. You are them merely moving in close proximity with each other other instead of dancing TOGETHER.

    Once you have got the belt or cling film thing sorted out take a double handed hold so that the womans forearms are horizontal. The mans hand should have the inside of all his fingers facing himself and the woman hooks her fingers over the mans hand so that her knuckles are over the mans index finger. Very important that her wrist is slightly lower than her knuckles.

    Controlling the womans weighted foot.

    In your practice position both people close their eyes and the man attempts to lead to woman to change her weight between one foot and the other. This is done by the leader moving BOTH hands to one side (horizontally – do not lift one hand) and keep that lead there until he FEELS the woman move her weight. Don’t do anything sudden. Trying to catch your follower out with sudden jerky changes of weight will just annoy her. Let her weight arrive before you try to lead the weight back the other way. Practice until your lead is smooth, the transitions are gentle and the follower feels as if she is part of your own body.

    Leading the woman to step forward and back

    Before you can lead a woman to make a step you must lead her to take her weight off of one foot FIRST. Then and only then can you lead to woman to take a forward step by leading with both hands EQUALLY. If you don’t provide an equal lead then the womans body will twist as she takes her step. In extreme cases she will twist so much that her forward step will be onto your foot (and it serves you right). To lead her to take a backward step you lead her weight change as before and then you apply pressure with the backs of the leaders fingers into the palms of the followers hands (since her wrist is slightly lower than her knuckles her hand will rise to allow this contact with her palm). You should know be in a position to decide (by your leading and her following of weight change) which foot the follower will step on and you can also lead the direction of the step she will then take.

    To get her to take multiple steps you only have to lead the next weight change and then the next step. After a while all these different parts of the led become smooth and seamless.

    Leading a change of direction.

    In order to lead a change of direction you must START slowing the womans motion BEFORE you lead her to change direction. Think about how you would start walking yourself and notice that you move your weight forward to start yourself walking (the faster you want to walk the more you pitch your weight forwards when you start). When you want to slow to a stop you start bringing your weight backwards before you manage to stop. This is what you are leading the woman to do.

    Leading a side step.

    Lead the woman to take her weight off of the foot that you want her to step with and then move both hand EQUALLY in the direction of her unweighted foot. It is usual to step with her at this point but it is not absolutely needed. In the strictest sense – because her eyes are closed she is following your hands – not your body. It is possible to be doing something else with your body while your hands are leading something different.

    Leading a twist.

    If you imagine that your followers hands are resting on a circular hula hoop that goes around the centre of their body then to lead a twist you only have to move her hands around that hoop and her body will respond by moving in a twist. If you lead her hands to one side then she will step to that side (if she has an unweighted foot on that side). You can only lead her to make that twist if her hands are lead around that imaginary circle that goes around her central axis.

    You can combine all these leading and following elements. You could lead her to unweight one foot, then twist, then walk forward. Practice all the individual elements of lead and follow slowly and calmly so that you know you are leading each element smoothly and cleanly, then experiment with the ways that they can be combined making the transitions between element smooth.

    Followers – You will have learnt that when the leader leads you hand he wants your whole body to move, not just your hand. You will have learnt that unless you arm has muscle tone (not an overpowering Vulcan death grip) the connection is lost and there is no transmission of lead from your hand to your body.

    FINAL THING

    Provide the lead to the woman, wait for her to start moving, THEN the leader moves to catch the follower up.

    Let her out of the cling film before you go your separate ways.

  2. #42
    Registered User Daisy Chain's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    I've posted about this before, but it's relevant again here.

    I think all followers go through a "frustrated" stage, when they are experienced enough to get bored with repetitive leads,
    There is one man in the NW who is the most boring dance leader ever. He seems fine during the intermediate lesson and appears to master the 4 moves each week. But, if ever I get him for the last 2 times through into freestyle my little heart (yes, I do have one) sinks.

    Almost immediately, his repertoire degenerates into endless First Moves. If his follower is really lucky, he will occasionally slip in an extra twirl on the return.

    I discovered that if you talk to him, he can't even keep the First Moves going and it all falls apart. So, if ever I am with him, I talk as much as possible - how else can I keep myself entertained for 3 mins?

    Luckily, he never asks me to dance in freestyle - I expect he finds me boring too!

    Daisy

    (An Evil Little Flower)

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Chain View Post

    I discovered that if you talk to him, he can't even keep the First Moves going and it all falls apart.
    I find that if I make eye contact with guys they get flustered. A number of men have said to me that they forget all the moves when they dance with me! Aaarrggghhhhhh

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef View Post
    Working on connection.

    Phew – Big subject and difficult to know where to begin. To make a start try this.
    *snip lots of good stuff*

    Let her out of the cling film before you go your separate ways.
    Wow – Chef, thanks that must’ve taken ages. Sorry I can’t rep you again. Beo did you get all that?

    Checklist for Beach Ballroom:
    Dress: check
    Dance shoes x2: check
    Blindfold: check
    Clingfilm: check

    (Do they allow clingfilm in hand luggage?! )

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    I find that if I make eye contact with guys they get flustered. A number of men have said to me that they forget all the moves when they dance with me! Aaarrggghhhhhh
    I’ve had that… someone who’s floorcraft is normally pretty good had a collision at Hammersmith whilst dancing with me and actually said that he’d been too busy looking at me!

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    Gosh. It's dreadful but I can't remember the last time I was at a class that covered the basic catapult. Will have to attend again.
    It's in Routines 6 and 12. Which are next Monday, and next Thursday

  6. #46
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I swear to God, if I see one description of sabotage as an essential part of Advanced Dancerdom, I'll hit that big red neg rep button...
    Sabotage (in my opinion, defined as doing something that the lead doesn't expect, as opposed to hijacking, which is taking over the lead) only counts as a part of Advanced Dancerdom if used appropriately (which I kinda forgot to emphasise in my original post, although I did say don't do it to beginner leads). It takes experience and a certain ability to be able to play/sabotage appropriately. Therefore, it is an element of Advanced Dancerdom. So there.

    Appropriately includes not sabotaging beginner leads or leads who are obviously determined control freaks or GOM unless you ask them first

    However, I also forgot to say that sabotage/playing is optional. I suppose. It's too easy to look like a lemon when you're not in a playing mood (or at least don't want to express yourself with *that* lead) - and the lead seems to expect you to - or worse, tells you to

    Oh, catapault - agree with what Rachel said, but would just like to emphasise that the lead should get out of the way (by stepping back) as s/he leads the follower forward. If the lead just stands there, then it is very difficult to take a giant step on one beat then spin on balance, without travelling, on the next. (There is a whole thread on the catapault and I'm going to be immodest and link straight to my post on it here. EDIT: Actually, reading down that thread, Stuart's description is better )
    Last edited by LMC; 31st-January-2007 at 07:00 PM. Reason: To prove that I *can* get over my own ego. Occasionally.

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    It's in Routines 6 and 12. Which are next Monday, and next Thursday
    Kick ass. However do you know if it is at the end of the routine on Thursday... I'm not sure I want to go for the whole class .

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    Kick ass. However do you know if it is at the end of the routine on Thursday... I'm not sure I want to go for the whole class .
    It just so happens that it's the last move!

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post

    Yeah, I'm sure I've stated this before but when I started I'd find some followers who were considered "good" followers not that enjoyable to dance with at all. Later on I realised that it was because they weren't anticipating or backleading. When I wasn't leading the move correctly they'd follow what was lead rather than their guess at what was intended.


    When i first started there were several occasions when i thought that women were beginners and ended up just going through the beginner routine because they seemed to be having trouble following much else. It was then to my surprise to see them go and dance with someone else and be doing all kinds of stuff I think this was due to them following what was being led rather than trying to help me out.

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    It's too easy to look like a lemon when you're not in a playing mood ... and the lead seems to expect you to
    I know someone who responds to that thing us guys do of placing girl in free space and watching her expectantly... by placing a hand on her hips and watching back in exactly the same way.

    It's funny.

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post
    Beo did you get all that?

    Blindfold: check
    Clingfilm: check


    This thread has taken a kinky turn if you ask me.. not that I'm complaining mind you

    Chef.. Interesting Post. I'll have to try that with Twirly when she's up..

  12. #52
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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Unfortunately, you can't gain experience in a hurry and even when you've taken onboard every good bit of advice that's been given on this thread, (well done guys! ) you'll still find some dancers/dances just don't do it for you.

    The advice given about becoming a good follow, not anticipating, good frame, practising with your eyes closed etc. is all absolutely correct BUT obviously, it only works, 'IF' you get a good lead but the trouble is, lots of leads give mixed signals (his body says one thing, while his hand's leading another ) and I'd say, from a slightly more experienced POV, that the alignment of the mans body, is possibly just as important as the hand but is much harder to teach (I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong but I don't think i've ever heard it mentioned in a Ceroc class? Where as in ballroom, AT and WCS its a major element)

    A lot of experienced follows, can follow a good lead without any physical touching at all, which is also a good exercise and can be great fun too!
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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post

    A lot of experienced follows, can follow a good lead without any physical touching at all, which is also a good exercise and can be great fun too!
    That would be awesome to watch

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    That would be awesome to watch
    The best person I know at doing this is Tiggerbabe! Had an entire dance, and I don't think that we 'messed up' once!

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    Sabotage (in my opinion, defined as doing something that the lead doesn't expect, as opposed to hijacking, which is taking over the lead) only counts as a part of Advanced Dancerdom if used appropriately (which I kinda forgot to emphasise in my original post, although I did say don't do it to beginner leads). It takes experience and a certain ability to be able to play/sabotage appropriately. Therefore, it is an element of Advanced Dancerdom. So there.
    Surely, "sabotage" is wrecking a move? By definition?

    I know one person, lovely follow, who was most miffed at being complimented on her "sabotage", when all she'd done was to slow a return down over two beats. To me, that's not sabotage, that's normal interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    Appropriately includes not sabotaging beginner leads or leads who are obviously determined control freaks or GOM unless you ask them first
    Or leads who understand the difference between interpretation, improvisation, and sabotage.

    Sabotage is a bad thing. Don't do it.

    Improvisation and interpretation is a good thing.

    Hijacking... well, if done really well, I can live with it, despite being a crazy control freak - but I think there are only about 3-4 followers in the whole of the London MJ scene who can do it really well.

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    To me, that's not sabotage, that's normal interpretation.
    So...

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    * Disconnected: embellishments that, if I shut my eyes, I wouldn't be able to feel. Eg, spare leg, spare arms, etc.
    * Connected: embellishments that I can feel, but I don't need to pay attention to. Eg, a ronde in a first move twist out.
    * Requests: embellishments that ask for some response from me, so I should pay attention, but won't end in disaster if I don't respond quickly enough. Eg: asking for some counterbalance in open position, asking to extend a turn by a couple of beats.
    * Demands: embellishments that demand or force a response from me, lest the dance break down. Eg: backleading a drop, breaking connection to do a shine, First Move Resistor, The Tart.
    So would you regard "demands" as "sabotage", and everything else as "improvisation and interpretation"?

    DavidJames in "not a control freak" shocker. You heard it here first.

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    A lot of experienced follows, can follow a good lead without any physical touching at all, which is also a good exercise and can be great fun too!
    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    That would be awesome to watch
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    The best person I know at doing this is Tiggerbabe! Had an entire dance, and I don't think that we 'messed up' once!
    Am still trying to get my head round this one? I can't understand how this is even possible? what do you verbally speak the moves to the person? I can't figure out how you can ask someone to step back without giving them the hand signal.

    And some moves require blocking.. how can you block someone from spinning if you don't actually block them? sounds very odd to me.

    Am obviously not at "that level" yet.

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970 View Post
    Am obviously not at "that level" yet.
    Don't dance, be the dance grasshopper

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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970 View Post
    I can't figure out how you can ask someone to step back without giving them the hand signal.
    Its all about reading the body language and alignment and looking at the angle and the speed that the lead is approaching you from

    Imagining there are invisible force fields around you...

    I'm just making this bit up, but imagine you and your partner both holding large magnets in your hards, with opposing forces towards eachother, the follow tries to maintain a constant and smooth feeling of opposing energy.. get the picture?
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    Re: Frustrated Female

    Imagining there are invisible force fields around you...

    I'm just making this bit up, but imagine you and your partner both holding large magnets in your hards, with opposing forces towards eachother, the follow tries to maintain a constant and smooth feeling of opposing energy.. get the picture?

    Oooh yeah!! got the picture!! A wonderful description... must try to paint it for real at SP in the blues room

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