Frustrated Female

[Twirlie Bird]

Ok. I have thought long and hard about posting this. I still don't know if it's a good idea. I am feeling very frustrated and really could do with venting this and hopefully getting some advice.

I haven't been dancing long but I have been dancing long enough to know I LOVE it. The feeling of twirling around the dance floor is unbelievable. I never imagined it would feel so good. I seem to be getting the moves quickly and remembering them. I feel that I have advanced well and am pleased with what I have acheived so far. It's the what happens next bit where I'm stuck.

I have started dancing 4 times a week. This is accelerated my learning curve. I am learning a lot of new intermediate moves. This is just adding to my frustration. When I go out and dance with people this is what I am finding. There are the beginners who are still trying to grasp the basic moves. The dancers who have been doing it for years and are amazing to dance with and everyone in between. I find that the majority of guys have their own little routines and favourite moves. Some people I dance with I could pretty much follow with my eyes closed as they are so predictable. Please don't think I am having a downer on these guys as I really am not.

When I dance with the very experienced dancers I feel that I am being pushed, taxed, my own dancing is being expanded. I have to think and I love it. I learn even more new moves and learn style. This is when I am on a complete high. This is how I want to feel all night. Obviously I cannot feel this all night and this is where my frustration comes in.

I don't know if any of this is making any sense. I really don't want to sound bigheaded. I would be the first to say that I have so very much to learn yet. I just don't know how I can drive my own learning. I learn these intermediate moves but as I am the followerer I cannot decide to dance these moves. Apart from hogging the experienced guys all night I really don't know how to better myself.

Sorry to go on.

[Ghost]

When dancing with the beginners / predictable ones, work on your technique and style. How can you follow even more smoothly? Work on your floorcraft. Musicality - where can you add your own elements without disrupting the lead? How can you adjust the way you're dancing to better fit the music, the style of the lead, the dancing of those around you? Etc

[Jamie]

Firstly... can I just say, it scares me when followers say they've "learned" moves...

The only time a follower should learn a move (except the basics of course!) in my opinion, is if it is coreographed.. IE: foot work type moves, arials, drops etc...

Rather than learning the "moves" themselves.. Learn to follow.

Following takes time to master, learning not to anticipate etc.. learning not to back lead.. I'm not saying you do any of these, these are just examples that I have come across myself whilst learning to follow.

Have fun!

[WittyBird]

Learn to follow.

Following takes time to master, learning not to anticipate etc.. learning not to back lead..

Then you get the fun stuff like sabotage and play

Enjoy it and go with what you feel Unless your being straddled whilst trying to sleep

Sorry babes

[Twirlie Bird]

Rather than learning the "moves" themselves.. Learn to follow.
Have fun!

I kind of understand what you are saying. If the followers don't need to learn the moves though then why are they in the classes? Your theory works well if the lead does just that. If they are a weaker lead and the follower doesn't know the move that they are trying to do it's all going to go wrong.

I'm sure that you could take me on the dance floor and dance moves with me that I have never done before. I'm sure that I could follow these moves as I'm sure that you are a very good lead. So yes I agree with you. However if I then danced with you again and you repeated one of these moves then I woudo be able to dance better that time with you.

Hope this makes sense. Maybe we could put it to the test on Thursday.

[Twirlie Bird]

Then you get the fun stuff like sabotage and play

Oh I didn't even know this existed. See so much to learn.

[WittyBird]

I vaguely remember another thread about this? someone help please?


You learn the moves
You learn how to do the moves
You then anticipate the moves
You then backlead the moves
You then forget everything you've learnt and dance
You dance and then sabotage and play

Sorry if thats brief but hey its late

[Jamie]

{snip}
Hope this makes sense. Maybe we could put it to the test on Thursday.

Yes I understand what you're saying, but one of my arguments against this is... I have never attended a class as a follower, yet I am competent enough to follow most moves that are thrown at me, unless the lead is so poor you can't work out what you're expect to do!... as you say if the lead is poor then it all goes to pot, but then that's when the magical rule comes in "It's always the mans fault!"

And if that's an invitation for a dance, I'd love to! Come say hi to me, I'll be the young guy accompanying witty!

[WittyBird]

And if that's an invitation for a dance, I'd love to! Come say hi to me, I'll be the young guy accompanying Witty!

Grab me as well sweetie please I will be wearing black and white, you wont really miss us all. Fletch is the tall one with massive t1ts and blonde hair - please grab us all

[Amy1]

Ok. I have thought long and hard about posting this. I still don't know if it's a good idea. I am feeling very frustrated and really could do with venting this and hopefully getting some advice.

I haven't been dancing long but I have been dancing long enough to know I LOVE it. The feeling of twirling around the dance floor is unbelievable. I never imagined it would feel so good. I seem to be getting the moves quickly and remembering them. I feel that I have advanced well and am pleased with what I have acheived so far. It's the what happens next bit where I'm stuck.

I have started dancing 4 times a week. This is accelerated my learning curve. I am learning a lot of new intermediate moves. This is just adding to my frustration. When I go out and dance with people this is what I am finding. There are the beginners who are still trying to grasp the basic moves. The dancers who have been doing it for years and are amazing to dance with and everyone in between. I find that the majority of guys have their own little routines and favourite moves. Some people I dance with I could pretty much follow with my eyes closed as they are so predictable. Please don't think I am having a downer on these guys as I really am not.

When I dance with the very experienced dancers I feel that I am being pushed, taxed, my own dancing is being expanded. I have to think and I love it. I learn even more new moves and learn style. This is when I am on a complete high. This is how I want to feel all night. Obviously I cannot feel this all night and this is where my frustration comes in.

I don't know if any of this is making any sense. I really don't want to sound bigheaded. I would be the first to say that I have so very much to learn yet. I just don't know how I can drive my own learning. I learn these intermediate moves but as I am the followerer I cannot decide to dance these moves. Apart from hogging the experienced guys all night I really don't know how to better myself.

Sorry to go on.

Can I suggest maybe take the opportunity to improve how you are dancing within the dance, if say you are dancing with someone you can follow easily.... I always try to think about my posture, hands, smoothness, connection and adding to the dance without interfering with the guys/girls lead.

I believe you can always improve your dance as the follow, no matter how simple it may seem. You can also make it more interesting too, without a doubt, but that is a skill that comes over time....

Ames

[under par]

Twirly Bird, what you describe is the second biggest problem that ceroc/leroc etc has.

The first is the retention of males/leaders and making them the competent /pleasant/ challenging dancers you describe as the dancers who give you the buzz/high.

Ceroc/leroc do not appear to have grasped that it is the very good male leads that the improving/advanced followers need and chase to get their highs.

The fact there is always more women than men should encourage Leroc Ceroc to provide higher quality training for the leaders so that more of them can satisfy the followers needs.

The problem you have desribed is that once you have learned to follow well your lessons are boring/dull. I do not believe most followers learn anything new after about 6-8 months of following from lessons.
After this period of time followers learn far more from freestyling with good leads than anything from a lesson. (workshops involving style tecniquue an exception)

Followers are in fact the manequins that are required by leaders to learn the moves taught during classes.
Although beginner followers believe they need to LEARN moves this is never challenged by teachers and is actually a hindrance to leaders learning to lead IMHO

Leaders actually need followers who do not anticipate or backlead during classes so they can learn to properly LEAD the moves being taught.

I hope that all dance class organisers will prioritise their teaching to improving the quality of their leaders which will in turn satisfy the needs and requirements of the far more numerous, much higher standard followers.

[fletch]

The problem you have desribed is that once you have learned to follow well your lessons are boring/dull. I do not believe most followers learn anything new after about 6-8 months of following from lessons.
After this period of time followers learn far more from freestyling with good leads than anything from a lesson. (workshops involving style tecniquue an exception)

the thought of 7 ladies on but i'm more than happy to dance with anyone after the lesson

[StokeBloke]

but i'm more than happy to dance with anyone after the lesson

This is about to be put to the test Fletch

I am following this thread with interest. As a lead it's important to me that dances are fun and challenging for my partner. I know some guys stick to a neat little routine. But that has it's own problems. Understanding what the follow wants from a dance will make it easier for the lead to provide just that. Everyone's happy

I have read comments suggesting that you work on the finer points of style. Whilst I'm sure that's valid, it doesn't strike me as exactly a fun way to spend a couple of hours of freestyle! I mean that would be fine, up to a point. But wouldn't you just get even more frustrated in a 'why am I bothering to learn to dance really nicely when every week I see the same faces and get the same moves' sort of a way. I am not trying to be negative here, I'm just trying to understand what's going on!

I guess it comes down to what you want to get from your dancing. Some people just want a carefree laugh, others want other things... (me - I just want to survive a dance with Fletch and Witty ). Work out what you want first, then you would be better placed to find it

[MartinHarper]

If the followers don't need to learn the moves though then why are they in the classes?

To make me happy.

[WittyBird]

To make me happy.

I suppose that's possible, after all today is Hell freezing over day

[Dai]

I guess it comes down to what you want to get from your dancing. Some people just want a carefree laugh, others want other things... (me - I just want to survive a dance with Fletch and Witty ).

Well a dance with Fletch and Witty, at the same time huh - ok that would be interesting -i'd love to watch that!!! You may struggle a little with the difference in height, and their dance styles, for double trouble, especially as you said you tried on your birthday, and struggled then too!!

But if you manage it, and make it look good - well credit where credit is due!!

[Beowulf]

Twirly Bird (oh dear another Twirly.. this could get confusing )

I sympathise with your predicament. All I can do is pass on the information that was passed on to me as a Newbie Lead. I used to complain frequently about doing the intermediate classes but only ever remembering a very small percentage of each class. I used to worry about being a dull and uninteresting dance partner and that followers would get bored with my repertoire of mostly Beginner moves and a handful of intermediate ones. (am famous for my repeated use of the Yo-yo per dance.. perhaps infamous is a better word )

However , the collected wisdom I received can be boiled down, condensed and regurgitated as follows, I've been told that Followers would rather have some simple moves done well than lots of moves done badly.

Now, from this statement I would imply (perhaps incorrectly I'm only followed once.. and that was ..well.. odd to say the least) that there will come a time when you ,as a follower, won't want huge complicated moves done one after the other but will instead enjoy simpler dances where you have more scope for play, self expression and room to improve your technique.

I'm now in the situation where if I can get one move from every other class into my collection I'm happy. I'll never be a move monster but I HOPE that what moves I do have I (will eventually) lead well.

I suppose perhaps a similar approach for the followers view would be appropriate. As suggested above when you get a chance to do the complicated moves, then revel in them.. when you have to do the simpler moves use the thinking space they give you to concentrate on other aspects of your dancing. Where's your foot going? What poses are you pulling? is there a way to speed this up/ slow it down? What styling can you add to the move? etc etc.

Hope my inane ramblings make sense

Best regards
Pete

[WittyBird]

Well a dance with Fletch and Witty, at the same time huh - ok that would be interesting -i'd love to watch that!!! You may struggle a little with the difference in height, and their dance styles, for double trouble, especially as you said you tried on your birthday, and struggled then too!!

You mentioned the 'H' word You're the 2nd person today to mention that

[Chef]

I understand your frustration. Almost every dancer has gone through it at some stage. A lot of followers try to solve it by finding out where the good leads have gone when they get fed up with their origional venue (they have often left to find better followers however).

Leaders often have the same frustrations. They go to workshops and weekenders and try to learn new moves because they are so bored with the stuff they already know. Then they come back home and try to do this stuff at that they have just learnt and find it just impossible because their followers are floppy armed, fall of balalnce during turns and spins, or thier floorcraft and precision of placement means they are about to crash into other dancers. All this makes trying to lead the latest cool move they have learnt almost impossible - a consequence is that they never learn to lead the move.

Worst of all is when the follower decides that they recognise a move and does that one INSTEAD of the one that is being led. If the follower doesn't follow a mans lead with grisly accuracy then all they are training the leads to do is to lead - vaguely.

Now following a mans lead when he is doing it wrong is not always going to make you popular but the alternative is that the men will learn that it doesn't matter if they do not lead because the woman will do something - usually something simple - as they simmer about the lack of lead and the boring moves they keep doing over and over.

It is sad that most organisations do not teach basic dance skills (leading, following, how to spin, how to lead spins properly, floorcraft, precision of placement) but these things get in the way of fun and a reduction in fun means a reduction in revenue at the front door. However I do greatly applaud those organistaions that do try to do this. Without these basic dance skill there is a point that is quickly reached that people find difficult to go beyond. With these skills prgress is possible and quite satisfying.

Top tips. (time is short)

The great leads and follows at dances are an invaluable source of tips and advice - use them and don't get in a sulk if they suggest that there is something you could improve - it was the reason you asked in the first place. Hard on the ego but ultimately good for the soul.

Find a great leader and a slow to mid tempo song and ask if he will lead you while you have your eyes closed. With eyes closed you have no visual clues with which to anticipate a move and you concentrate on your balance and following your hand. A good leader will adjust the moves to the fact that you have your eyes closed and will handle your safety from the floor craft aspect.

LEADERS- Keep you darn hand still unless you are leading SOMETHING. If you bounce your hand up and down or waggle it side to side then either the follower will follow it faithfully and either jump up and down or will waggle side to side - or worst of all - IGNORE IT COMPLETELY. Leading and following is like a conversation. If your lead is shouting random noise your follower will go deaf

Go to every technique workshop you can manage. Use it to make a contact pool of local dancers who share your desire to improve. Try to set up a practice group where you all meet in a cheap village hall and practice what you learnt. The usual minimum ratio is about 5 hours of practice for each hour of lesson.

Make sure your own core skills are rock solid and reliable. The most common faults for followers that I find are.

The rockstep on 1,2 of the start of a move. Too much weight is put on the back foot (right for ladies, left for men - others may tell you different but this is what I am saying). On beat one compress your weight onto your rear foot but DO NOT let your heel touch the floor. This will stop you from letting your weight go backwards - having to move it forwards again slows you down. On beat two your weight comes back onto your forward foot. A tip I give to guys is to look around a dance floor and have a look at the wmen that lift their front foot during a rockstep - then avoid them like the plague - they are off balance at the start of every move and will spend the dance yanking your arm. Leaders and followers can both practice doing rocksteps at homewhere they don't have a partner to annoy.

Returns. When you led a return on a woman MOST women will travel to their left. This will alter the line of the dance and force the leader to change position and often he will have to abort what he was trying to set up and lead something simpler instead. This travelling to the left on returns is mentioned as a mistake on the Ceroc beginners DVD so as far as I am concered if you are doing it then you are still a beginner. Of course I have seen some shocking leading on returns as well. The lead should be bringing the hand to just over the womans head and stay there until she has competed her turn. If you lead here hand to the left side of the womans head she will have to move to her left in order to turn underneath it.

SPINS. Spins on the spot are just that. They are done on one spot, they do not travel, and the flow of movement is EVEN in speed from start to finish. Practice them at home in your hallway. If your spin travels you are bound to hit a wall. Keep practicing until you no longer aquire brusies. Travelling spins. The lead must lead the direction of travel first and THEN the spin. If the lead tries to bring the hand down too early you WILL take the woman off balance at a time when she is most vunerable.

[Beowulf]

You mentioned the 'H' word You're the 2nd person today to mention that

There was a comment said about one of my non dancing Muggle friends here in Aberdeen. I think it may be appropriate..

"She's like a real person.. only smaller"

to which my reply (in her defence) was

"She's not small.. she's concentrated"

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