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Thread: Healing with Dancing

  1. #101
    Registered User Beowulf's Avatar
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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    In response to Beo's post.
    Hey! Stay out of the icebox or you'll turn into Cyril Smith.'


    (am paranoid now.. am wondering how Barry managed to sneak the hidden webcam into my freezer )

    I am not adverse to saying to someone "hey wouldn't you be better off if you..." or "I don't really think you should be ...."

    if someone i cared about was seriously ill and stopped taking their medications in favour of some guy charging them an absolute fortune for "powdered unicorn horn and mermaid scale healing balm" then I would tell them, quite forcibly that I thought they were making a mistake.

    however if traditional medicines were not working and they were continuing to take them AND the "powdered unicorn horn and mermaid scale healing balm" and it at least gave them some hope then .. what the heck.

    My Ex had a friend with very advanced liver cancer. she did everything the doctors told her too. took the pills she had to and wasn't getting any better. She ended up going to CLAN house (Cancer Link Aberdeen and North) and took them up on their regular meetings, support sessions and some of their more esoteric treatments .. as it says on the website "Complementary therapies that help to improve the quality of life, balance energies and promote healing"

    Now she was visibly healthier looking (perhaps still as ill) but she looked better , looked happier and was more active. Placebo effect? perhaps. She was taking shark cartilage tablets, having Reiki done, Aromatherapy etc and she did have a better quality of life for it.

    Sadly she still died. but at least the hope she got made her feel so much better and enjoy the last few years of her life. Doctors gave her 6 months, and she lasted nearly 3 or 4 years. How much of that was incorrect diagnosis and how much was placebo effect or even how much was genuinely using these therapies I don't know. but frankly I don't care.

    She was a good friend to my Ex and so to me and it was nice to see her happy up to the end.

    now would you rather say to them.. "actually the Doctor says you have 6 months.. no point trying something else.. just accept that as science has done everything it can for you?" I'm sure you wouldn't

    No you do not brow beat people, no body here has been doing so.. some people may argue more "intensely" than others. it just shows how emotionally connected they are to their subject .

    *heads back to his seat in on the fence*

    I found sitting in the middle of the road hazardous to my health .. too much traffic

  2. #102
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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Show me where the meridians are to be found in any Atlas of Anatomy.

    In any event, it is for those who are making claims to prove them. I am denying the claims. The claim is - for the purposes of the discussion, since I feel confident that you don't really believe in chi and meridians and yin and yang (pardon me if I'm wrong) - that acupuncture works by altering the flow of chi through the meridians which allows unbalanced yin and yang to be brought into balance and cure the disease.

    I'm afraid the response to that is 'dirty great yarblockos'. Prove it.
    EXACTLY my point. What you've just told us is what we knew all along.

    a) Western medicine has not found any evidence of chi / meridians etc. Fact.
    b) You believe these claims are a load of hogwash. Opinion (carefully reasoned opinion, yes. Still an opinion).

    Nothing is proven by any of this. None of these arguments can be used to claim that it's hogwash as a scientific fact

    If you want a scientific approach to the acupuncture debate, have a look here - that's an example of careful research, and reasoned scientific argument.

    Like I say - everyone's entitled to their opinion. It doesn't bother me that you don't believe in any of this, and I have no intention of trying to convince you otherwise - but you've been stating that your opinion is a scientific fact, without being able to substantiate that in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    The most plausible explanation is that those people are mistaken; far more likely than that everything we know about information transfer, and how it is accomplished, is redundant.
    What you haven't done is explain how everything we know about information transfer would become redundant if telepathy were feasible (and, for the record, I don't believe in it either). It could mean there was a whole extra level to information transfer that we were completely unaware of - but that's almost certainly true regardless - in just about every area, scientific study is still only really scratching the surface. The simple fact is that the more we find out, the more we begin to realise how much more there is to learn.

    Just like dancing, in fact

    Anyway - to sum up - what you are doing is stating your opinions - and that's all that they are. They're deeply held, they're carefully reasoned, well (if somewhat emotively) argued, but, as with the rest of us, they are still just opinions.

    Case rests.

  3. #103
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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I like the idea of debating things with someone who is half a world away!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    This idea of dogma and how it hampers science is very overworked. (snip rest of the post)
    Don't get me wrong Barry as I do agree with some of your points, and too many involved in those weird 'therapy' things take advantage of vulnerable and/or gullible people.

    Quote Originally Posted by killingtime View Post
    (snip moon cheese stuff)
    Not sure what you're on about the cheese stuff KT.... I did say that when considering a new theory that conflicts with current ones, you have to look at which and how many dogmas that new theory contradicts before considering giving it some credit - or not.

    As far as I am concerned, although I'd happily qualify some aura theories as 'ludicrous' (which I'm not doing by the way not even knowing what is called an 'aura'), I'd say I know enough about human biology to realise that there is in fact much more I don't know about it.

    Say for example, somebody says there are some sort of 'flows of enegy running through your body', and that they can act on them to relieve some condition. (which is close enough to some theories used in several complementary therapies).
    The way in which we function and our whole nervous system relies on electrochemicals reactions. (in total 'imagine if' mode now) Now what if those reactions raised even very very slightly the body / skin temperature in some affected area? Or created an ionic imbalance? and what if some people more sensitive than me could in a certain way 'feel' that when they touch you? Again, all relying on electrochemicals reactions at the end of their nervous system...
    I'd say not proven yet but there might be a slight chance that this could work in some way my limited knowledge don't suspect... Hence as long as they have results at least as good as the placebo effect (which is the case for homeopathie for example), I say ok... actually better than using drugs that present adverse effects... (if similar result).

  4. #104
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Hmmm, I wonder where Ash has gone...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pussy Galore View Post
    Not at all Paul. I am used to non believers and find them challenging.
    PG?
    PG?
    I think you've scared her off, Barry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Oh, as for the US military - try Jon Ronson's The men who stared at goats. The US really did have a research post which tried to see if one particular individual could kill goats by looking at them.

    Excellent stuff - to quote from one review:

    As Ronson reveals, a secret wing of the U.S. military called First Earth Battalion was created in 1979 with the purpose of creating 'Warrior Monks,' soldiers capable of walking through walls, becoming invisible, reading minds and even killing a goat simply by staring at it.
    Wow, I'd so like to be a Warrior Monk. I'd never abuse my powers, for example in cheerleader changing rooms. Oh no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    However, it has not so far been refuted.
    Yay! "The 'R' word"! House! I win!

  5. #105
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    debate about auras aside.... this is how it goes in science history, isn't it?
    New theory conflicts with current science dogmas, scepticals dismiss eccentric theory, until some new blood proves it works and amend/create the new dogmas...?
    Yes, with the caveat that "New theory" should read "new theory, which has evidence to back it up, and which disproves key aspects of the old theory".

    Typically, the way you should prove a theory is to try your damndest to disprove it - destruction-test it, in other words. If it's not destroyed, then it's a theory. I've not seen any proponent of any new loony idea try that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post
    So as others said it'd be pretty short-sighted to say that because something hasn't been proven yet and conflicts with current science, that it is rubblish... and yes there is a case for how far-fetched new theory is and how many well tested dogmas it contradicts...
    Yeah, but none of this stuff is "new theory", it's mainly just "crackpot ideas". Which kind of blows a large hole in your theo- err, assumption.

  6. #106
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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    purpose of creating 'Warrior Monks,' soldiers capable of walking through walls, becoming invisible, reading minds and even killing a goat simply by staring at it.
    What, did the US military worry about an invasion by a massive herd of goats?

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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    My Reiki practitioner wasn't one of them. It was all done for free.

    I don't believe in Reiki.

    When I had Bell's Palsy, half my face was totally paralysed and "conventional" medicine could only tell me that it might get better on it's own if I'm lucky, but there's no real treatment for it, in fact they're not even sure what causes it. They offered me lots of anti-virals and steroids that may or may not help.
    I was offered electro-stimulation therapy, by NHS doctors and so thought it was the best thing. Good thing I did some research on it because it turns out that there is no proof that it works at all. In fact there are an alarmingly high number of cases where permanent disfigurement has occured after treatment.

    Anyway, a friend and Reiki practitioner offered me a session. She doesn't charge anyone for it because she believes that treating other people helps her too.
    It couldn't possibly do any harm so I agreed.

    It was wonderfully relaxing and my face showed immediate signs of improvement. Later sessions had similar effects.

    A tiny part of me wants to believe that it was this mystical energy healing me, but the far greater part knows that it was the relaxation that made a difference.

    The point is that "conventional medicine/science" could not only not help, but offered me unproved and potentially dangerous treatments.
    Even if you don't believe in Reiki, it still helped me, no-one made any money out of it and there were no risks involved.
    That's a great story, and it's great that you were helped. (I knew a guy who had Bell's palsy years ago; he was a salesman and I often wondered whether his distressing appearance damaged his income, or might it have helped?)

    And it also shows something else - conventional medicine doesn't have answers for everything and doesn't have cures for everything.

  8. #108
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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Yes, with the caveat that "New theory" should read "new theory, which has evidence to back it up, and which disproves key aspects of the old theory". Typically, the way you should prove a theory is to try your damndest to disprove it - destruction-test it, in other words.
    That claim is, at least, controversial. Check out "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" by Kuhn for a more recent view.

  9. #109
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by andystyle View Post
    What, did the US military worry about an invasion by a massive herd of goats?
    Well, they're quite scary you know, all those strange sounds they make, and the horns.

    They've been around for thousands of years, just watching us, waiting for the right time to pounce. I know this is true for a fact, because I believe it. Can you disprove it? No, of course you can't - because they've eaten all the proof I had.

    Woo-woo.

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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Well, they're quite scary you know, all those strange sounds they make, and the horns.

    They've been around for thousands of years, just watching us, waiting for the right time to pounce. I know this is true for a fact, because I believe it. Can you disprove it? No, of course you can't - because they've eaten all the proof I had.

    Woo-woo.
    The only sure way to beat the goat invaders* for sure is to curry them and eat them with a nice pilau.

    *That includes the ones that have managed to infiltrate the higher echelons of our government.

  11. #111
    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    I found this article interesting.

    (Catching up on the thread: Barry, re: your acupuncture rant - see my post at #40 )

  12. #112
    Registered User Whitebeard's Avatar
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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Caro View Post



    Not sure what you're on about the cheese stuff KT....
    I was disappointed to find that it was ordinary yellow plastic cheese - I've always believed it was green cheese, ripe and smelly.

  13. #113
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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Oh, as for the US military - try Jon Ronson's The men who stared at goats. The US really did have a research post which tried to see if one particular individual could kill goats by looking at them.
    All other things aside, this is an excellent book. I was lent it a while back by my acupuncturist (yes, seriously). Very funny, and (if even a fraction of it is to be taken seriously) pretty alarming in its depiction of the US military...

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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf1970 View Post
    Now she was visibly healthier looking (perhaps still as ill) but she looked better , looked happier and was more active. Placebo effect? perhaps. She was taking shark cartilage tablets, having Reiki done, Aromatherapy etc and she did have a better quality of life for it.

    Sadly she still died. but at least the hope she got made her feel so much better and enjoy the last few years of her life. Doctors gave her 6 months, and she lasted nearly 3 or 4 years.
    That's a toughie. It's not at all clear to me that no hope is better than false hope, and to that extent I have to admit defeat. It might be much better for someone and their family to believe for three years that they might get better rather than be certain that they won't.

    As a policy though, I prefer the idea that quack therapies will gradually be rooted out. We can still have societies and associations and just human kindness to motivate people with terminal illnesses to live as long as they can and have as much fun doing it as possible.

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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    As a policy though, I prefer the idea that quack therapies will gradually be rooted out.
    Might take a while, I'm pleased to say

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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    a) Western medicine has not found any evidence of chi / meridians etc. Fact.
    And consequently I say it is rubbish. Not an opinion - I have an opinion on whether ham on rye is better than BLT - but a statement of fact. Until someone proves that meridians and chi exist - as opposed to simply asserting that they do - then I have the high ground.
    If you want a scientific approach to the acupuncture debate, have a look here - that's an example of careful research, and reasoned scientific argument.
    Thanks for that. I note that 'chi' (spelt qi) and 'meridian' turn up once on that site, in a pargraph which over politely points out that they are gobbledygook.
    I know what you are trying to say - at least, I think I do - but I don't consider that I am stating my opinion as a scientific fact. I think it would be more accurate to say I am stating my opinion of what the scientific fact is.
    Also by responding to individual potshots (and I don't mean that in a whingeing sense at all) I have allowed the general thrust of what I am asserting to get lost. When there is no scientific basis to what a woo-woo asserts, he does not seek to discover or explain any scientific basis, and it flies in the face of known science then it is not merely 'an opinion' that it is not true, it really isn't true. I see no reason why we have to pussyfoot around mumbling about something might be right until its proved wrong. If anyone can point to a single instance where that isn't the case then my argument fails. No-one has.
    What you haven't done is explain how everything we know about information transfer would become redundant if telepathy were feasible (and, for the record, I don't believe in it either).
    Well there would be naff all point to mobile phones if you can simply send your thoughts to someone. And if something so crucial was completely unkown to science then - see my point about purple mammoths - anything else is possible and the scientific method is irrelevant.

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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    I found this article interesting.

    (Catching up on the thread: Barry, re: your acupuncture rant - see my post at #40 )
    What do you mean "rant"? I am the soul of reasonableness. As any fule kno.

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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Might take a while, I'm pleased to say
    Wouldn't it be better to work out how to properly harness the body's obvious ability to effect changes when the mind believes something is happening?

    Or would it be counter-productive - would somebody who doesn't believe in reiki get no benefit from similar treatment?

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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Or would it be counter-productive - would somebody who doesn't believe in reiki get no benefit from similar treatment?
    Difficult to say - I've seen it work very well on a cat, for example, but when I asked it whether it believed in Reiki, it just stared at me and refused to say anything. It's not always easy to get these answers, believe me

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    Re: Healing with Dancing

    Quote Originally Posted by straycat264 View Post
    Difficult to say - I've seen it work very well on a cat, for example, but when I asked it whether it believed in Reiki, it just stared at me and refused to say anything. It's not always easy to get these answers, believe me
    Don't you hate when cats put on airs?

    Give me a stupid grinning dog with its tongue hanging out any time...

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