What Ceroc does badly....

[Trouble]

one thing i have noticed now that i am a little more advanced in dancing is that there seems to be a gaping hole in the standard ceroc night lessons. I have noticed that intermediate dance lessons vary dramatically depending on where you are. There are not any lessons on a normal ceroc night that really challenge the more experienced dancers. There is either beginners or intermediate. There is no advance lesson taught to my knowledge anywhere unless you go for workshops.

So what do we get from it apart from the social life and some good dances?

Whilst the above two are what its all about, it would be nice to have an opportunity to advance in some way.

[FirstMove]

There are not any lessons on a normal ceroc night that really challenge the more experienced dancers.

I think that the comments on this thread show that Ceroc suffers from its own success, by being very broad in its appeal.

Several comments on this thread are asking for moves to be repeated from week to week, essentially making the classes easier. However, if Ceroc wants experienced dancers to turn up before the freestyle, it needs to give them a reason. Coughing up £6 for 90mins of freestyle is hardly cost effective. Add on 40mins of travelling there and back and why bother?

I have no problem picking up intermediate classes any more, often just watching the demo is enough. Knowing that 1 of the 3 moves is going to occur next week too means there's even less of a reason to turn up.

Recently, I have noticed that several of the best local followers have decided they are bored and want to lead instead. Requests for a dance are accepted, but only grudgingly. When asked, they openly admit they'd rather be working on learning to lead intermediate moves.


So what to do?

One local franchise has a system of having easy intermediate classes at the start of the month, getting more difficult
as the month progresses. Beginners are not encouraged to start doing the intermediate class in the tricky weeks, although no-one actually stops them. The only thing holding this back is that the teacher forgets what week it is and does an easy class on the supposedly hard weeks - the only ones I bother travelling to.

Another thing that seems to work is when teachers theme classes, e.g. cha cha moves, swing moves, blues moves, even monster pretzel variations By doing lots of similar moves, the class seems to pick up the essence of the move better. My suspicion is that themed classes require more preparation than the time available between beginner and intermediate classes, so are just too much work to do regularly.

One last thing. Just before the intermediate class, invite people to dance through the previous week's routine. Don't show them before, just count it in and dance it through with them. See what happens. The result will show you how easy or hard a class really is and whether anyone thinks it contained anything worth remembering.... Of course, being Ceroc, those that give it a try also get a round of applause

[TheTramp]

As a basic rule of thumb

I thought that thumbs weren't allowed at Ceroc....

one thing i have noticed now that i am a little more advanced in dancing is that there seems to be a gaping hole in the standard ceroc night lessons. I have noticed that intermediate dance lessons vary dramatically depending on where you are. There are not any lessons on a normal ceroc night that really challenge the more experienced dancers. There is either beginners or intermediate. There is no advance lesson taught to my knowledge anywhere unless you go for workshops.

So what do we get from it apart from the social life and some good dances?

Whilst the above two are what its all about, it would be nice to have an opportunity to advance in some way.

I wonder how any form of dance, or most other things that are taught, actually differ from this.

When I did martial arts, the vast focus of the session, was spent on mastering the basics, and making sure that they were done well. We spent the first 10 minutes going over front kicks and punches. Can you imagine if 'advanced' people were told to go over first moves, until they actually did them well??

When I was playing rugby, it was the same. The vast amount of the training session was on the basics. Getting fit, passing, tackling. Over and over, until it became 2nd nature to do them right. The 'clever' stuff came right at the very end.

Personally, I think that there are no such things as advanced moves. There are beginner moves, and "the rest". Of course, there are varying degrees of difficulty in the moves that fit into "the rest". And then, advanced dancers do them well. With style and musicality. The sort of thing that you go to workshops for. And then practice bringing them into your dancing both in classes, and in freestyle.

I've not been to many other forms of dancing on a regular basis. However, the salsa classes I went to for a while had pretty much the same form as Ceroc, albeit with 4 different levels instead of 2. However, what was being taught in the top level class didn't appear to be much different to the intermediate level class at Ceroc in terms of difficulty. There were just more stages in between.

At the WCS weekend I've just been to, there were 4 levels of workshop. I did level 3, and coped reasonably well with it, despite only ever having done 3 classes before (let's not talk about my freestyle attempts though eh! ). The level 4 workshops did seem to concentrate more on technique, although, we were taught that at level 3, as well as moves. It'd be interesting to see how WCS was taught at 'class nights' in America. I don't imagine that it would be much different from Ceroc (but am happy to be told I'm wrong).

I think that it's generally the case that most classes in any hobby or sport (or however you define dancing) cater for a beginner to average level of ability. Those who are (or think that they are) past that level, generally have to look for something else - whether it be private lessons, workshops etc. in order to move on.

[under par]

Ok. I have thought long and hard about posting this. I still don't know if it's a good idea. I am feeling very frustrated and really could do with venting this and hopefully getting some advice.

I haven't been dancing long but I have been dancing long enough to know I LOVE it. The feeling of twirling around the dance floor is unbelievable. I never imagined it would feel so good. I seem to be getting the moves quickly and remembering them. I feel that I have advanced well and am pleased with what I have acheived so far. It's the what happens next bit where I'm stuck.

I have started dancing 4 times a week. This is accelerated my learning curve. I am learning a lot of new intermediate moves. This is just adding to my frustration. When I go out and dance with people this is what I am finding. There are the beginners who are still trying to grasp the basic moves. The dancers who have been doing it for years and are amazing to dance with and everyone in between. I find that the majority of guys have their own little routines and favourite moves. Some people I dance with I could pretty much follow with my eyes closed as they are so predictable. Please don't think I am having a downer on these guys as I really am not.

When I dance with the very experienced dancers I feel that I am being pushed, taxed, my own dancing is being expanded. I have to think and I love it. I learn even more new moves and learn style. This is when I am on a complete high. This is how I want to feel all night. Obviously I cannot feel this all night and this is where my frustration comes in.

I don't know if any of this is making any sense. I really don't want to sound bigheaded. I would be the first to say that I have so very much to learn yet. I just don't know how I can drive my own learning. I learn these intermediate moves but as I am the followerer I cannot decide to dance these moves. Apart from hogging the experienced guys all night I really don't know how to better myself.

Apologies for quoting from another thread twice in one post but I feel that this topic is something that Ceroc and other Leroc etc. do not do well

Twirly Bird, what you describe is the second biggest problem that ceroc/leroc etc has.

The first is the retention of males/leaders and making them the competent /pleasant/ challenging dancers you describe as the dancers who give you the buzz/high.

Ceroc/leroc do not appear to have grasped that it is the very good male leads that the improving/advanced followers need and chase to get their highs.

The fact there is always more women than men should encourage Leroc Ceroc to provide higher quality training for the leaders so that more of them can satisfy the followers needs.

The problem you have desribed is that once you have learned to follow well your lessons are boring/dull. I do not believe most followers learn anything new after about 6-8 months of following from lessons.
After this period of time followers learn far more from freestyling with good leads than anything from a lesson. (workshops involving style tecniquue an exception)

Followers are in fact the manequins that are required by leaders to learn the moves taught during classes.
Although beginner followers believe they need to LEARN moves this is never challenged by teachers and is actually a hindrance to leaders learning to lead IMHO

Leaders actually need followers who do not anticipate or backlead during classes so they can learn to properly LEAD the moves being taught.

I hope that all dance class organisers will prioritise their teaching to improving the quality of their leaders which will in turn satisfy the needs and requirements of the far more numerous, much higher standard followers.

[Groovemeister]

I can only tell you from my experience with other types of dance Trampy which is 5 years of ballroom and the last 3 years of doing tap.

It was all about getting the basics right and nothing else for a probably the first year on both occasions. Probably why people tend to get bored with learning ballroom inparticular.

I did find Ceroc quite frustrating at the begining because of the lack of direct teaching and structure. I now know how to get the best out of the ceroc lessons I go to and enjoy them for what they are and then develope my own technique and movement outside of it.

[under par]

I did find Ceroc quite frustrating at the begining because of the lack of direct teaching and structure. I now know how to get the best out of the ceroc lessons I go to and enjoy them for what they are and then develope my own technique and movement outside of it.

So is ceroc failing to help you progress as a dancer?

Do you as a leader feel that you have improved yourself as a result of your own actions, rather than what you have been getting from ceorc/leroc recently?

[Groovemeister]

So is ceroc failing to help you progress as a dancer?

Do you as a leader feel that you have improved yourself as a result of your own actions, rather than what you have been getting from ceorc/leroc recently?

I have for the last 3-4 months felt I was progressing more by going and watching other people. I find that I can change my style quite easily by watching I suppose I could be said to have a "dance head".

TBH i also think my ability to be able to dance well as an individual has had the biggest effect on my partner dancing. When I learn things such as general balance and foot movement I can use them to improve on the basics that i pick up at the Ceroc or other MJ lessons. I don't have to concentrate on where my feet are or how to spin or control myself I can just learn a move or interprut the music instead.

Also having a consistent partner that I dance with 3 times a week helps no end

[eastmanjohn]

I have no problem picking up intermediate classes any more, often just watching the demo is enough. Knowing that 1 of the 3 moves is going to occur next week too means there's even less of a reason to turn up.

We do a 5 or 6 move routine and repeat 1 or 2 moves from the previous week. That makes it more challenging than just 3 moves. The routine's finished before its starts with just 3 moves.

How about doing a routine that is choreographed to a piece of music to encourage use of breaks etc and understand how they fit. It could be from the middle of a song if the Dj knows where to start from.

[StokeBloke]

I fairness some of these issues are being resolved. We generally do 3 intermediate moves. Carry across moves from previous weeks are also starting to happen. I agree completely with the 6 week rule - that is total BS. Taxi's are for people who have been dancing less than 6 weeks. Anyone been coming for less than 6 weeks can attend the review class. Etc etc.... but last night I danced with a lady who leaves a red thumb mark on the back of my hand she clutches it so tightly - it's impossible to put her into a hatchback without it ending up as a yo-yo.... she's been dancing for years. I feel unable with my limited experience to try and 'tell her what to do'. I also don't really feel it is my place to do so!

There is no peer review. No natural progression for those who want it. No way to gauge your improvement (except with self imposed and often unrealistic personal target setting). As such you end up with a huge swathe of dancers who can limp by with no aspiration. Because there is nothing to aspire to! At the start I was confused by people who said they used to Ceroc, but gave it all up after 6-8 months. Now I understand. It is not just newbies that need retaining or there will just be a continuous loop of..... well you get the idea.

Maybe these observations are completely unfounded and off base. But it really does seem like students are encouraged along, retained until they are hooked and then forgotten. Ceroc seems to be based on teaching moves and not teaching dance.

[TheTramp]

There is no peer review. No natural progression for those who want it. No way to gauge your improvement (except with self imposed and often unrealistic personal target setting). As such you end up with a huge swathe of dancers who can limp by with no aspiration. Because there is nothing to aspire to!

Of course there is. Peer review - dance with the teacher (or demo). Before you do so, ask them to be prepared to give you feedback at the end. I'm always happy to help, but there's no point in dancing with me, and at the end asking me how to get better. I don't spend most dances thinking about that. I need to be asked to switch into 'teacher' mode.

There are other things that you can do if you want to improve - private lessons, workshops etc. It requires some effort, and, of course, some financial input. But tell me what you can learn that doesn't involve those. There's always something to aspire to. Even if it's just self-improvement. Or to be as good as the best dancer at your venue. Or as good as someone that you've seen at a weekender, or a competition. Or to be able to lead well. Or follow well. Or whatever.

The point is, that for a lot of people, they don't want these aspirations. They want a comfortable night out, with friends, a few dances, a bit of exercise, etc. For the people who want more, it's generally available, but not always just through your usual classes. But as I said above, I don't think that Ceroc is different to most hobbies or activities in that way.

Ceroc seems to be based on teaching moves and not teaching dance.

So, tell me, can you dance better now than you could when you started?

Just where did you learn to do that then?

[LMC]

Goose stepping. Facinating to watch - I can't tear my gaze away

It wasn't just goose stepping though - there was all sorts of other weird **** going on. Mesmerising - in a car crash rubbernecking kind of way :S

[Gadget]

More could be done to keep the regulars/better dancers at the venue.

I think that this is the only area Ceroc seem to falter at - it takes dancers to a certain level, then expects them to take the initative and seek out improvement beyond that level. Yes, it does offer it; but only if you activly seek it out.

I think that the general standard of dancing could be improved (by quite a margin) if there was a 10 min slot before the intermediate lesson that was a cut down "focus" thing{*} - teaching a bit about connection, spins, movement, style, or whatever was relevant to the forthcoming routine. Probably better linking it with the "classic" move, then notes and subjects could be passed throughout the teaching network.
Alternativly, incorporate this information into the intermediate class. {Some teachers already do a bit, some don't, and it varys from lesson to lesson.}

{* they now have the "Ceroc Essentials" - a similar thing for intermediates, but doing connection excercises, spinning, etc is the idea.}


I strongly dissagree that there should be any form of specific standards, goals, medals, entrance exams, qualfications, levels, or any specific rating system for dancers to be judged by or judge themselves by.
I think that everyone is too unique to have a standard imposed on them and expect them to measure up to it. Personal feedback, personal analysis and one-on-one tuition will give anyone lots of ways to improve nd can give much better, tailored personal goals than any check list ever will.


The semi-circle thing, I used to think interfeared with the dance and was against the principles of lead and follow... untill I started taking a closer look at timeing. I think it needs to be there to give the follower some warning at the start of a dance... if you start dancing before (/as) you've entered the floor, then it's not necessary, but from a 'cold' start I think it is.

The moving to intermediates I think is as individual as the person moving: the beginner routines are taught in a block of something then repeated. I think that once most folk complete a block they could probably move up (subject to the discression of teachers/taxis)

[MartinHarper]

Style developments (e.g. blues) have passed the vast majority of people by, simply because things like manhattans and blues are not incorporated in standard classes.
In fact, I heard (from a Ceroc teacher) that manhattan footwork was forbidden in a class - it wasn't allowed to be taught.

Then your teachers suck. Get new ones.

[David Bailey]

Then your teachers suck.

Why? If they're told that they can't teach something, that doesn't automatically make them poor teachers - just constrained. My point is exactly that - Ceroc constrains creativity in teaching the intermediate classes.

Putting it another way - Ceroc does intermediate classes badly.

Get new ones.

I did. They're called tango teachers.

[MartinHarper]

Why? If they're told that they can't teach something, that doesn't automatically make them poor teachers - just constrained. My point is exactly that - Ceroc constrains creativity in teaching the intermediate classes.

Reason I say that is that I've been taught manhatten footwork (and the odd bit of blues) in regular ceroc classes.

[Twirlie Bird]

Of course there is. Peer review - dance with the teacher (or demo). Before you do so, ask them to be prepared to give you feedback at the end. I'm always happy to help, but there's no point in dancing with me, and at the end asking me how to get better. I don't spend most dances thinking about that. I need to be asked to switch into 'teacher' mode.

Thanks for that brilliant advice. I had already decided that I was going to ask teachers and experienced dancers for feedback. However I would have asked them at the end of the dance. The only thing about asking at the begining is I may feel that I am being watched, examined, try too hard and then go wrong!!!

[David Bailey]

Reason I say that is that I've been taught manhatten footwork (and the odd bit of blues) in regular ceroc classes.

Maybe they were secret rebels or something

[TheTramp]

Thanks for that brilliant advice. I had already decided that I was going to ask teachers and experienced dancers for feedback. However I would have asked them at the end of the dance. The only thing about asking at the begining is I may feel that I am being watched, examined, try too hard and then go wrong!!!

Hehe. If it's someone I dance with regularly, I tell them that I will. Sometime in the next couple of weeks. That way, they forget that they asked, and I'll try to do it sometime when they're not expecting it, and hence aren't trying too hard.

Of course, sometimes I forget too!

[Mythical]

I'd also like to have a "grading" to work towards....as much as I'm having fun, it'd be nice to achieve something with it!!

It seems that all the teachers/advanced dancers have the same style, and after a while, it's quite uninspiring, whereas there are a few guys at the class I go to who have a rather......shall we say....unique...style, who are interesting to watch and fun to dance with yet it seems to be frowned upon! There's even one guy who everyone warns me away from, because he "jumps about all over the place". I'd like to see far more emphasis on developing a style of your own.

I don't know how it is at other venues, but I'd also like to see the female taxi dancers dancing as females in the beginners lessons.....I know there are more women, and they have to make up the numbers, but if some women are going to have to slot in anyway, why not have a taxi dancer to help the guys through their moves, because the guys have an even harder time than the women!

[StokeBloke]

I'd also like to see the female taxi dancers dancing as females in the beginners lessons.....I know there are more women, and they have to make up the numbers, but if some women are going to have to slot in anyway, why not have a taxi dancer to help the guys through their moves, because the guys have an even harder time than the women!

I have always thought this was a very strange use of resources. Let the taxi dancers dance as ladies and move the girls round slightly more quickly. That leaves nobody out for too long and the guys get the experience of leading someone proficient at dancing.