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Thread: What Ceroc does badly....

  1. #21
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Do Ceroc listen and act on some of the bigger issues that (for example) are being raised here?
    Generally, I doubt it - this is just us lot whingeing, mainly

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Is there some Customer Council - or any kind of customer channel into the 'Management'. I'm speaking from total ignorance here - is there a thread which describes the internal organisation structure of Ceroc?
    I don't think there is an organisational structure - there's Ceroc HQ, with a few staff, and there's Ceroc Franchises.

    Anyway, that's all rubbish, everyone knows it's all run by The Ten.

  2. #22
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Just as an aside, I didn't start going to intermediates until 10 weeks in (going twice a week)............and it is interesting that at some venues they explicitly say 'don't join intermediates until........6 weeks (typically) - and others they don't mention any criteria at all - on several occassions there have been week 1/2 beginners joining in.
    Another thing that Ceroc does badly is to call you an intermediate dancer after 6 weeks.

    I did the Ceroc beginner's classes for months, back when they had a whole "beginners night" in the Central Club. It took me ages to work up the courage to go to an intermediate evening. But then, I'm slow.

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    In balance to the "What Ceroc does well..." thread, I'd like to use this thread to constructively criticize Ceroc practices - basically, things which are done better by other dance organisations / teachers, and which Ceroc could learn from (again, not just other MJ-ers).

    Again, I'll kick off with a couple:
    • Slow dance development
      I think it's very clear that Modern Jive as a dance taught at Ceroc has progressed more slowly over the past 10 years than dances such as salsa or AT - the only real change has been in the moves being taught. There's been little development of technique as far as I can tell, for example.
      <p>
    • No assessment culture
      There's very little assessment / criticism given by teachers, at an individual level - groups are too large and too "wholesale" for this to happen, and the teachers are physically a long way away from their pupils, so it's difficult to spot individual problems anyway. Yes, taxi dancers can do this in review classes, but they're not CTA-trained teachers.


    Next?


    Ok you have started of on the assumptions that’s what people want . Clearly they don’t otherwise ceroc wouldn’t have grown exponentially since cira 1980 and I believe still does grow

    I started ceroc as I didn’t want to be ‘tested’ like I was in ‘ballroom’;

    Its not what ceroc in my view should be about so id say they have done well

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I'm very much not convinced that the vast mass of dancers are doing anything different to what they were 10 years ago, however. There may be more dancers at the top end (say, 200 instead of 50), but there's still 50,000 others doing the same thing.

    what’s wrong with that

    Ceroc isn’t about making great dancers its about having a fun night

    If ceroc goes away from the basics then it will fail and something will take its place

    Change for change sake doesn’t mark ‘progression’

    AA hasn’t changed much in 50yrs but im told still works very well

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Ok. Here goes. My first post here. Been reading for quite a while but now have the courage to join in.

    Thank you Jivelad for the dance yourself dizzy link. Went to take a quick look and came back 40 minutes later!! It's excellent. That's exactly what Ceroc need. It's so hard to remember the moves you have learnt. I always try to write them down when I get home but you don't always get told what the moves even are. Then when you do know the names you have to try and remember them and how they go until you get home.

    Oh one last question. Who are The Ten???

    Ok that wasn't too bad.

  5. #25
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Ok you have started of on the assumptions that’s what people want . Clearly they don’t otherwise ceroc wouldn’t have grown exponentially since cira 1980 and I believe still does grow
    The growth of a business doesn't mean it's perfect, it just means that the business meets a need well enough to grow. And if it's not clear, I'm not talking about the business model, I'm talking about the teaching of dancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    Ceroc isn’t about making great dancers its about having a fun night
    I'm fairly sure that people to teach dancing at Ceroc, or they say they do - perhaps I was imagining the thousands of classes over the years?

    Given that, you kind of assume they do some work in training and updating their... what's the word... ah, "teachers". Presumably this is done for a reason, otherwise they'd just do freestyles every night and save themselves the bother.

    Ceroc does teach dance, in other words, so it's silly to pretend it's just a social club.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    AA hasn’t changed much in 50yrs but im told still works very well
    "My name is DavidJames and I'm a Cerocer" AA? Or "Very nice man" AA?

  6. #26
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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    Ok. Here goes. My first post here. Been reading for quite a while but now have the courage to join in.
    Welcome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    Oh one last question. Who are The Ten???
    Well, if we knew that, they wouldn't be The Ten, would they?

    (Oh, OK then, see here for the details)

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    The growth of a business doesn't mean it's perfect, it just means that the business meets a need well enough to grow. And if it's not clear, I'm not talking about the business model, I'm talking about the teaching of dancing.
    You have stated what ceroc does 'Badly'

    Perhaps you should change the thread re This is what i think would make Ceroc better its just my personal opinion

    This forum will probably generated 5 times as many posts as what it does badly then what it does well

    Id if you asked your standard cerocer it would be the other way around

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirlie Bird View Post
    Oh one last question. Who are The Ten???
    I could tell you but then i'd have to kill you!
    BTW, Welcome.

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by JiveLad View Post
    Yes, yes, yes...........just as beginners moves are repeated, then I would like to see a 'core' of classic intermediate moves taught on a rolloing basis as you describe...............this would make it easier the second time around. At the moment it is pretty much a unique lesson/set of moves on each intermediate.
    There are a core of classic intermediate moves. And in Scotland, we put in one of them every lesson. Along with one move that is based on one of the moves taught in the beginner class. And anything else is really the only 'free choice' of move(s) taught.

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp View Post
    There are a core of classic intermediate moves. And in Scotland, we put in one of them every lesson. Along with one move that is based on one of the moves taught in the beginner class. And anything else is really the only 'free choice' of move(s) taught.
    This is true in london as well. Each routine has one of the so-called classic moves (sometimes this is indicated) - i can't remember how many there are (30-40? ) so if you go regularly then you should see them reappear. I have had one particular move taught three times now i think.

    As to the wider issues on intermediate classes. I think that part of the problem is the wide range of abilities. You will have some people who are doing their first one and some who have been doing it for years. Trying to tailor a routine to both these sets is going to be difficult. I suppose the ideal situation would be to have a class which takes the newer intermediates and takes more time over moves, maybe teaches a bit of technique, etc. However, i doubt whether this can be realistically done in many venues, it also requires more teachers. I suppose an 'improver' night could be one solution in large cities? Only problem would be that in freestyle you would know that the dancing ability would be below that of a normal night.

    Someone mentioned repeating moves from the previous week. I have noticed sometimes that similar moves are done in successive weeks, which is appreciated as if you couldnt quite 'get' the first one then you stand a better chance of getting the second one.The only problem is that you might find you end up leading a succession of very similar moves through a song

  11. #31
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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by Twirly View Post


    What I think would be useful is to have one of the three (or four or five - as we sometimes get at Clapham) moves repeated the following week
    Exactly what I was thinking - with perhaps a show of hands from the masses to decide which one?

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulthetrainer View Post
    Exactly what I was thinking - with perhaps a show of hands from the masses to decide which one?
    I'm never sure about this. Given that one of the moves is a variation of one of the beginner moves from that evening. And one is a 'classic' move, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of opportunity for variety anyhow (and yes, I know that last week's beginner variation could be this week's repeated move if it was a difficult one).

    It is never easy, getting a class that will please everyone. However, the 'classic' moves are moves that, in the main, beginner intermediates should be able to achieve, if they are actually ready for the class. And most people struggle to remember more than one move from the class by the next day. Which gives the beginner intermediates something from the class that can be achieved. And then, you might want something for people who are further along the path.

    Of course, that's not to say that you can never repeat a move from the previous week (or a variation thereof), just that I probably don't see the need to make that a standard thing. Other teachers may well differ in this opinion of course.

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    Registered User LMC's Avatar
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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Footwork.

    Yes, I know the whole point of MJ is no footwork.

    But watching the ladies at HMS President yesterday, Lynn (hope you don't mind me naming and shaming!) and I had a couple of "*** (OK, that phrasing is mine) is going on with their FEET?! "

    Loads of weird kicky stuff. BiZARRE.

    Didn't really notice what the men were doing sorry, 'cos I don't watch them for style points for my following.

    Perhaps it would help to have some more emphasis on, er, walking to the music, rather than trying too hard to look like a dancer with all the kicky bouncy stuff? (sorry luv, actually you look like a prat, plus I'm getting all paranoid that I'm doing that too )

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Continuity from week to week seems to make a huge difference to picking up moves. Not talking about the classic moves, which are just boring, but taking a move one week, and building on it the next. Maybe a one-handed catapult, leading into a repeating catapult the next. The lead (at least the right hand) is identical. Or one travelling first move, then a similar one, maybe harder, maybe not.

    It encourages people to take notice, expecting to build on it next week and reminds them about a move they would otherwise have forgotten. It also gives a valuable lesson in showing that moves are built from a common framework.

    I've seen classes where a longer routine is taught over several weeks, adding a couple of moves each week, which seems to work well if the majority of the class turn up every week.

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    I'm very much not convinced that the vast mass of dancers are doing anything different to what they were 10 years ago.
    Check this thread: Milestons in MJ development. From there I'd cite Manhatten footwork and Blues as significant changes - it's hard for me now to imagine an MJ scene without those influences. Neither of these elements were present in MJ's predecessors. Additionally, many of the tracks routinely played at MJ nights had not been created ten years ago, so there's a musical change too.

    Sure, I've not experienced these changes first hand, but all the evidence I've seen points to an MJ scene that is slowly changing over the years to match cultural developments over the same timeframe. Is Argentine Tango changing so much faster? Remember, it's had longer in which to change...

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    Footwork.

    Yes, I know the whole point of MJ is no footwork.
    Of course there's footwork. You move them to the beat and it's lades right on odd beats ladies left on even beats.

    As a competitor to Ceroc I would rather you didn't post what's wrong with it. I'd prefer they stayed in blissful ignorance of their faults

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Sure, I've not experienced these changes first hand, but all the evidence I've seen points to an MJ scene that is slowly changing over the years to match cultural developments over the same timeframe.
    I'm not convinced, but it's a subjective judgement of course. I don't see any major difference between the vast majority of cerocers now and 10 years ago, in terms of technique. Style developments (e.g. blues) have passed the vast majority of people by, simply because things like manhattans and blues are not incorporated in standard classes.

    In fact, I heard (from a Ceroc teacher) that manhattan footwork was forbidden in a class - it wasn't allowed to be taught.

    Ceroc doesn't have the flexibility to quickly adopt new techniques and developments in its classes, in other words.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    Is Argentine Tango changing so much faster? Remember, it's had longer in which to change...
    Actually, I've no idea, I don't know enough about the AT scene.
    However, I know that salsa changes much faster - for example, the way cross-body lead dancing swept through the clubs like wildfire a few years ago; within a year, everyone was teaching and dancing that style. I can't imagine a similar change happening at Ceroc, can you?

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    On a purely selfish note Looking after their student population! I get very annoyed when some franchises offer student discounts under the "Concessions" banner and other don't Makes me less inclined to come back.

    One day I will have qualified and will had oodles of money and won't spend it on anything Ceroc related other than entrance fees if I can help it

    Quote Originally Posted by LMC View Post
    ..."*** (OK, that phrasing is mine) is going on with their FEET?! "

    Loads of weird kicky stuff. BiZARRE.
    Goose stepping. Facinating to watch - I can't tear my gaze away

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    I'll add in lead and follow. Its mentioned, yes, but not taught. In fact the very first thing that is taught in Ceroc when people pair up is a signal that actually hinders good connection (IMO).

    Why not start with the basic principle of connection, and teach a simple lead for a step back at the beginning?

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    Re: What Ceroc does badly....

    A lot of things have been said in this thread with which I agree, especially with regard to the intermediate class issue.

    I first want to comment on the related issue of when you should progress up to the intemedaite class. There is certainly a need for some better and more consistent guidance about this from Ceroc UK. It is of course true that different people will be able to progress up to intermediate level at different times simply because people differ in ability, previous dance experience and speed of learning. That said I think there is a general problem that some people make the move too early and as a result risk never learning the beginner moves properly (which will always handicap their dancing to some extent) or struggling so much in the intermediate class that they give up entirely. One point that is in my view generally true but rarely if ever seems to be said on Ceroc literature or webs-sites, is that leaders need to spend more time doing the beginner and refresher classes than followers. As a basic rule of thumb I would suggest that followers can consider progressing to the intermediate class after 6 to 8 weeks but for leaders it should be more like 10 to 12 weeks. These times could be shortened somewhat if you happen to be a naturally talented dancer and / or have previous partner dance experience. I have however all too often seen beginners who have only been attending for one or two weeks attempting to do the intermediate class.

    The intermediate class itself is problematic - as has been said you have to try to cater for a vast range of experience. However, I do not think Ceroc have got it right yet. These are in my view the main problems and some suggested improvements;

    - classes are in general a little too difficult. In my experience difiiculty with at least once of the moves is quite commonplace. How many times have you heard the teacher say something like "I thought you were all going to get that quite easily but a lot of you seem to be having problems". I think teachers are inclined to sometimes underestimate the difficulty of the routine. Four moves in half an hour is a lot especially if one of the moves involves some footwork ending with say a fancy exit and / or a lean or dip.
    - there is too much emphasis on choreographed routines and not enough on moves which are relatively easy to lead in freestyle.
    - I think 3 moves would be better than 4 or 5.
    - relatively simple linking moves seem to be rarely taught but they are a vtial element in freestyle.
    - it would be a lot better to sometimes dedicate a whole 30 minute lesson to say a footwork / dip combo than tacking this on to 2 or 3 other moves and expecting most people to learn it in 10 minutes. The latter results in few people being able to execute the move properly during the class and even fewer knowing it well enough to be able to incorporate it into their free styling.
    - some form of continuity from one week to the next might also help (for example do a variation on a move taught the previous week)

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