Moves Workshops or Technique Workshops? Or a bit of both?

[Beowulf]

After posting/ reading this thread I was thinking how I really should make a concerted effort to improve my dancing.

I cannot despite my best intentions improve with the one class a week I'm currently doing and at the moment I'm in the situation where more than one class a week is out of the question. (sometimes 1 class a fortnight is difficult to be honest )

Anyway, I find the way intermediate moves are taught (with rare repetitions unlike the beginner classes) I find the moves very hard to sink in and are soon forgotten.

So I thought I'd attempt to set aside some money to do some workshops. But finances are tight so where in an ideal world doing EVERY workshop that comes up may be a good way to progress in the real world it's impractical.

So I thought I'd ask for some advice. To get the most out of very little, would I be best to go to moves workshops (say the Intermediate 1 ,2 and 3 classes) or should I concentrate on doing what i already know better by doing some of the technique courses (such as Franck's widely praised and highly recommended "Focus on" workshops?) or perhaps a particular mix of both?

I know this is a bit of a "how long is a piece of string?" question. I'm not looking for a definitive answer but to gauge opinion and get some idea of my progression path?

And yes Trampy.. before you say it, I'll beat you to it.. Perhaps if I came to class every week I wouldn't NEED to do workshops to improve. But it's a bit of a catch 22 cycle here, I cant do anything but basic moves, so I get bored and don't go to class, I don't go to class so I cant do anything but basic moves etc. (btw Trampy.. You know I respect your opinion really.. just Jesting )

So, bearing in mind that the number of workshops I could attend (factoring in travel etc) would be limited at the moment. Which workshops would give me the best improvement in my dancing over the shortest period of time?

I seem to have hit my plateaux at an alarmingly low altitude

[TheTramp]

And yes Trampy.. before you say it, I'll beat you to it.. Perhaps if I came to class every week I wouldn't NEED to do workshops to improve. But it's a bit of a catch 22 cycle here, I cant do anything but basic moves, so I get bored and don't go to class, I don't go to class so I cant do anything but basic moves etc. (btw Trampy.. You know I respect your opinion really.. just Jesting )

Well. It wouldn't hurt!

Talk to me tomorrow about it. I might have a couple of suggestions for you!

[ducasi]

Any way you could make the next Kirriemuir weekend? That's a lot of technique packed into one weekend.

I found doing an intermediate workshop very useful though in expanding my repertoire of moves just when I needed it.

Maybe I should go another one...

[Lee Bartholomew]

I'll make a few sugestions if I may....

Try a different style of dance for a bit. Try abit of Tango or WCS. You will pick up different ways of dancing.

Also could try different MJ classes. Each teacher has his . her own ways of doing things.

Look at video clips on the net. Pick one move or foot work piece per week to work on.

[MartinHarper]

To get the most out of very little, would I be best to go to moves workshops (say the Intermediate 1 ,2 and 3 classes) or should I concentrate on doing what i already know better by doing some of the technique courses (such as Franck's widely praised and highly recommended "Focus on" workshops?) or perhaps a particular mix of both?

Technique, easily. You can pick up moves from watching other people, and from regular classes. If you can only go to a few workshops, go to the ones that teach you things you don't get from regular classes. In particular, I'd suggest a workshop in either musicality or connection. Musicality you can then practice by dancing, whilst connection you can practice by repeating the exercises you get shown in the workshop.

[Franck]

So I thought I'd ask for some advice. To get the most out of very little, would I be best to go to moves workshops (say the Intermediate 1 ,2 and 3 classes) or should I concentrate on doing what i already know better by doing some of the technique courses (such as Franck's widely praised and highly recommended "Focus on" workshops?) or perhaps a particular mix of both?

A bit of both is indeed the best approach but I appreciate that if finances are limited, you have to pick carefully.

Focus workshops (shame you missed the one in Aberdeen yesterday) are ideal as they are cheaper than regular workshops (only £15.00), have low-ish numbers and offer solid technical foundations designed to give you something to work on and new directions in your dancing. They do not rely on moves and are suitable for all levels of experience. Unfortunately, due to time constraints, I don't run them as often as I would like.
The best value for you would be to book a week-ender (which means more money upfront) but offer a more immersive experience. The next Focus Residential is on the 23rd/25th March in Kirriemuir and is a 2 nights, all inclusive (Dinner, Bed & Breakfast + all workshops, tea-dances and parties) deal. If you book early, you can get the Early Bird Discount: £99.00 (instead of £119.00).

I'm finalizing the programme as we speak, but the current schedule looks like:

Friday 23rd March:
• PRE-DINNER WELCOME PUNCH at 6.30pm in the Lobby.
Come join us for a welcome drink of Punch to get the week-end started and get to meet everyone.
• DINNER: 7.00pm
• FRIDAY NIGHT PARTY: 9.00pm ‘til late (DJ: Tiggerbabe)
Fun Class at 9.30pm

Saturday 24th March:
• BREAKFAST: served between 9.00am and 10.00am
• SATURDAY WORKSHOPS:
- 10.30am-11.30am - CONNECTION / LEAD & FOLLOW.
- 12.00pm-1.00pm - SPINS & TURNS
- 2.00pm-3.00pm - FOOTWORK & STYLE
• 3.00pm to 6.00pm TEA-DANCE
• DINNER: 7.00pm
• SATURDAY PARTY 9.00pm-late (DJ Steve the Tramp)
Fun Class at 9.30pm

Sunday 25th March:
• BREAKFAST served between 9.00am and 10.00am
• SUNDAY WORKSHOPS:
- 11.00am-12.00pm - ADVANCE CONNECTION
- 12.30pm-1.30pm: MUSICALITY - DANCING TO THE BEAT.

[Franck]

So, bearing in mind that the number of workshops I could attend (factoring in travel etc) would be limited at the moment. Which workshops would give me the best improvement in my dancing over the shortest period of time?

I seem to have hit my plateaux at an alarmingly low altitude

I meant to add as well that if you can't do workshops, visiting parties & classes in other areas, would allow you to take any teacher (myself included) aside for 5 minutes and get a 'mini-private lesson' at no extra cost!

[Lee Bartholomew]

To add to Francks comments,

most dancers don't mind showing you how the done a move or sharing their knowledge.

[clevedonboy]

If you can get a partner - try some Ballroom / Latin (or find a class where you don't need a partner) - it's generally quite cheap and you learn a good dollop of technique quite quickly that will stand you in good stead for just about any dance.

If you feel adventurous (and decide AT isn't your thing) try a few Lindy classes

[Chef]

To add my endorsement of technique workshops to the others already on this thread.

It wasn't until I started doing techniques workshops that understood why so many things had been going wrong for so long. It formed a turning point for me in that I understood why things had been going wrong and what I needed to do to change what I was doing. Sometimes the subtle things unlocked things that I had found difficult and other changes had to be more major. It was all made that bit more difficult because I had to unlearn so much of what I had been doing.

As I understand more elements of the underlying techniques needed in dance it makes it easier for me to do the things that I want. After an initial feeling of going backwards as you unlearn stuff and put the new stuff in its place then the following progress is much faster.

So the anser from me would be to do technique workshops over moves. There is no point know lots of moves - all of which you can do cringingly badly (something you only realise afterwards).

When should one start doing technique workshops? The moment that you realise that a lack of technique is a barrier to your progress (assuming you want to progress rather than staying where you are and just having fun).

A while ago I was sitting with a friend and we were watching a dancer called Nigel Anderson. Friend remarked how it was great that he could dance to the music like he understood what the music was going to do and fit his dancing to it. I told him that Nigel teaches classes on understanding the structure of music and musicality. Freind then stunned me by saying "I had been to one of those classes and the first 5 minutes were just listening to music and counting the beats and bars out. There were no moves at all so I left". All I could say to friend was that was why Nigel could dance like that and he couldn't.

If you want to dance like someone (presumably better) then knowing what they know would be a good start. To nick someone elses signiture - it's more than moves.

[Gav]

I cannot despite my best intentions improve with the one class a week I'm currently doing and at the moment I'm in the situation where more than one class a week is out of the question. (sometimes 1 class a fortnight is difficult to be honest )

I've been there Beo and I know just how frustrating it is. I spent about the first 9 months doing 1 a week and it was sooooo annoying being stuck, while those who had more spare time were zooming ahead. I'm lucky in that I now have lots more spare time, I just need to liberate the cash to be able to afford it now!

You are lucky though, having technique workshops available. We have nothing like that around here and I've always felt that without a good technique as a foundation, learning more moves won't make you a better dancer.

[under par]

I was thinking how I really should make a concerted effort to improve my dancing.

I cannot despite my best intentions improve with the one class a week I'm currently doing and at the moment I'm in the situation where more than one class a week is out of the question. (sometimes 1 class a fortnight is difficult to be honest )



I seem to have hit my plateaux at an alarmingly low altitude

Beowulf you are not the only leader who struggled at the beginning.

Everyone learns at different speeds and some learn in different ways.

I never progressed in my dancing until I realised the benefits of recording all the moves taught on paper before the end of the evening and the the added benifit of dancing on consecutive nights.

My plan went along the lines of writing out in my own long hand how each of the 4 moves worked . I then tried to practice the 4 moves in fresstyle repeatedly. Next night record new moved ... pravtice during freestyle... when bored of 4 moves sit out a track and pick out 2 of previous nights moves to add to next 3 dances (or until bored!) then sit out a track read about previous nights other 2 moves and put them into next few dances. now continue to practice all 8 moves.

Next night repeat the process .. do lesson.... practice ad nausem new moves...when bored re-read yesterdays and pick 2 to add to new dance.. when bored sit out reread 2 more to add in..

if you could persevere for 4 nights you will identify 16 moves of which you will find 4 or 5 are just not for you.... leaving you 11 or 12 you have now practiced loads and know well.

using the record of moves as a prompt for those times when you get bored by sitting out and making yourself introduce a new move or moves to the next track will improve your ability to have more variety within your dancing each night.

There is nothing worse than being bored with your own moves so this system encourages you to do something positive when you feel like that.

As far a s workshops are concerned, they really are mostly and extended lessons and if you don't have a tools for recalling what you have learned they can be just as frustrating.... so again you will need to record the bits you like and how they work for you.

If you could manage just 3 weeks of 3 or 4 consecutive nights doing what I have suggested above you will find that you will have a fairly comprehensive list of moves written long hoand on loads of bits of paper.

This list will generally be long hand how it works for you descriptions... these can slowly be prescied ?sp down to a shortened one line entry of the moves you get on with.

I personally list all my moves prefixed with the teachers name who taught it...I find this is a good tool to jog memory.

So I have Franck blues foot sweep move.

Viktor open door move

Leclerc back to back etc.

i also subcategorised the moves as left hand leads, Right hand leads and 2 hand leads.

Once confident its a seperate challenge to dance your 9 left hand moves only or only 2 hand moves

Learning loads and loads of moves will not make you a great dancer.. but if you can learn the moves you get on with really really well and learn how to use all in different sequences you will find yourself becoming more inventive or innotative within your dancing.

Neither a single lesson nor a single workshop will change a novice on its own.

It is the appliance of a regime of learning (of which mine is only one, personal to me, but which I offer to all) which will enhance your muscle memory and personal confidence to apply yourself and use the moves that you have learned well in time to the music.

Somewhere on this forum I have written about " That night" when I personally stopped thinking about which move next, which move next , which move next ....... and started moving myself in time to the music which was being played ( not very well to start with!!) but it was a momentous moment for me and my dancing.

The good news for all leaders starting along the path of learning modern jive...if I, Under Par who had never danced and never listened to music all his life, who had 2 left feet and was tone deaf can improve... then anyone else can to.

Practice practice practice.

As far as technique learning is concerned some aspects you will pick up as you do your lessons but all the time you are worrying what move to do next there isn't much time for technique. When you plateau and are confident of your moves use workshops ,the forum and internet to read about dancing and try to add the little gems of technique you find into your next dances.

weekenders are also great for dancing loads.. Tip from me do not do too many lessons ... the ones you do do , write down the moves immediately after the class and then find a partner to practice practice practice for an hour or 2..... then use it during the many hours of freestyle that night..

good luck

[SuzyQ]

Hmm I love dancing with people like Nigel who listen to the music and interpret ... it is great (although most guys would get a slap if they used all the same interpretative methods as Nigel!).

If you look at the best dancers, their moves are often simple but they way they are danced is different.

As a follow, I prefer fewer moves ... and better technique. As a lead I appreciate it is really really hard to achieve!

First place to start for me as a lead is trying to hit breaks in the music! Did a fab workshop on hitting breaks on each beat of the first move. Very useful.

Getting some more dance styles under your belt would probably help too.

Suzy

[under par]

ps. I can highly recommend Francks Focus workshops ..especially Focus on Feet great day in Stirling

[Freya]

Beo I know exactly how you feel! I'm On a plateaux (sp?) at the moment! some nights I still have a great time but I don't feel as if I'm getting anywhere at the moment! And in trying to improve I'm thinking too hard about what I'm doing!

So I had a chat with Franck about it at the Tea Dance and he had some very good suggestions! What he did stress was that it isn't easy and you have to be prepared to put in the work! The teachers are there to help you...Not just with that weeks or last weeks moves buit to help you learn! And as a friend reminded me (love you Genie!) their there to be used!

I think that a mixture of the workshops would be a good idea! A moves one to get some moves you really like fixed in your head and then technique ones to get you dancing fantastically! Then you can alter the moves to suit you! It no longer matters if you do them correctly!

Hope this helps!

God I must be bored if I'm actually posting something sensible?

[Lynn]

I would say technique - definitely. If you can get along to any workshops that Franck is doing on connection I would recommend those. Excellent stuff.

And a weekender is an excellent learning curve. You have more time to absorb and put into practice what you are learning.

[frodo]

After posting/ reading this thread
So I thought I'd ask for some advice. To get the most out of very little, would I be best to go to moves workshops (say the Intermediate 1 ,2 and 3 classes) or should I concentrate on doing what i already know better by doing some of the technique courses (such as Franck's widely praised and highly recommended "Focus on" workshops?) or perhaps a particular mix of both?

I think one problem with moves workshops is you're less likely to have people convenient to practice with, as workshop may be drawn from many weekly classes.

Also there are even more moves to remember - it is one thing reviewing the moves of a 40 min weekly class - a bit more of an effort for a 4hr workshop.

So I think they're worse than classes for retaining moves.

I think moves workshop are worthwhile only if one of:-

A) Had particular moves I wanted to learn / was having trouble with.
B) A reasonable quality DVD or video was available so I could review it.
C) I could repeat the exact same workshop at a later date. If I forgot it the first time it wouldn't be money down the drain - I'd pick it up easier the second time.
D) Doing it together with a partner or people I had lots of opportunity to practice with later.

[frodo]

Technique, easily. ...

I would say technique - definitely....

Technique may be a better long term investment.

However if you're looking for the "best improvement over the shortest period of time" improving technique may have the disadvantage of going backwards before you go forwards.

[robd]

The instinctive response is to say 'Technique' on a similar reasoning as the ' teach a man to fish or give him some fish' moral, parable, fable whatever it is. However a little further thought made me want to add two things

* I think technique needs further definition. What do we mean by technique in this context? All moves that I have seen taught required some technique, however rudimentary, to execute.

* If we assume technique to be the teaching of components, for want of a better word, that are reusable then workshops do not have to be one or the other, they can encompass both. One of the first workshops I attended was a Ceroc Intermediate II Cerocshop taught by Paul Harris (Jive_P on the forum). He covered the featured 12 moves but did not teach them by rote (as happened with Intermediate I taught to me a month or so later by another teacher in the same franchise) He broke them down into common components, covered lead and follow and how the moves featured could be varied/extended. His demo on the day was a bit ropey but I have to say that workshop had a big impact on the direction in which I took my dancing. I also try to get to Amir's monthly Jango workshops and these also, to my mind teach me good, solid technique but also allow me to take away a few new moves each month.

Robert

[Lynn]

* If we assume technique to be the teaching of components, for want of a better word, that are reusable then workshops do not have to be one or the other, they can encompass both. One of the first workshops I attended was a Ceroc Intermediate II Cerocshop taught by Paul Harris (Jive_P on the forum). He covered the featured 12 moves but did not teach them by rote (as happened with Intermediate I taught to me a month or so later by another teacher in the same franchise) He broke them down into common components, covered lead and follow and how the moves featured could be varied/extended. His demo on the day was a bit ropey but I have to say that workshop had a big impact on the direction in which I took my dancing. I also try to get to Amir's monthly Jango workshops and these also, to my mind teach me good, solid technique but also allow me to take away a few new moves each month.

Those both sound like a good combination of technique and moves. Often moves are taught with little technique mentioned - either because of time restrictions or because the teacher simply doesn't teach technique. Or moves are used as a method of teaching technique (almost sneaking it into the lesson!).

That first workshop you mentioned with Paul, eg, sounds like it was as much about giving move 'tools' as moves and therefore would help in understanding how and why moves work.