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Thread: Illiteracy at the top.

  1. #21
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeccaB View Post
    We all know that the people at the top have illiteracy problems.
    I dont think they have ANY problems with illiteracy

    Quote Originally Posted by timbp View Post
    What was the salary? Did she pay superannuation? What about sick leave and annual leave?
    Oooh I see what you did there

  2. #22
    The Dashing Moderator
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    My Collins English Dictionary says:
    refute:
    1 to prove (a statement, theory, charge etc) of (a person) to be false or incorrect; disprove
    2 to deny (a claim, a charge, allegation etc.)
    But it does rather sit itself on the fence with:
    Usage: The use of refute to mean deny is thought by many people to be incorrect.
    I'm afraid my dictionary is of the Big Printed Book variety so I don't think I can provide a link to it...

    Edit: but they do have a website so maybe I can do a link after all..
    Last edited by DavidY; 22nd-January-2007 at 09:56 AM.
    Love dance, will travel

  3. #23
    Registered User andystyle's Avatar
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    does not even list english words such as "realise" and "customise".
    Ah, the dreaded 'z'! Fair one though, using an American definition is thin ice. But if the Collins English defines it as it does, I stand by my statement.

  4. #24
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spin dryer View Post
    I'm with Barry on this. Please explain the basis upon which you suggest that the the American Heritage Dictionary should be taken as authoritative as concerns the use of English in England.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Indeed. I'd go by the OED but their website is subscription based, however - Dictionary.com has the definitions for refute as..

    [...]

    I'm with Barry on this especially as Andystyles choice of dictionary does not even list english words such as "realise" and "customise".
    The American Heritage Dictionary was my choice, not Andy's, but I got it via Dictionary.com.

    However, to keep you happy I've looked up my Shorter Oxford Dictionary.

    It has this definition:

    refute:
    1. Refuse or reject (a thing or person) (Marked as obsolete.)
    2. Prove(a person) to be wrong: confute.
    3. Prove (a statement, accusation, etc.) to be false or incorrect; disprove.
    4. Deny, repudiate. Freq. considered erroneous.

    Looks like the Oxford folks thinks that "refute" can mean "deny", despite some people thinking it erroneous.

    Are we done yet?
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  5. #25
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    gah, I can hardly continue arguing if Ive been proven wrong can I

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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    :
    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    What exactly is wrong with what AndyStyle wrote, or do you just disagree with him?
    I see he has quoted from the American Heritage Dictionary; I will have to check a more authoritative source and get back to you.

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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Oh well, that's OK then. If an abuse has been going on a long time, it doesn't matter. I guess we should stop chasing criminals altogether then, crime's been around for ages as well.
    Well, the point is that it isn't necessarily an abuse. It was a way for Kings and Princes to reward people who needed rewarding without having to raid the Exchequer. It was naked favouritism then and it is now. The last Conservative administration did it and all the administrations before that. Of course the theory is that they should now be created for favours to the country, rather than the ruler, but I'm afraid I just can't get that worked up about it. I don't consider that a Lord is anything special, though, so maybe that explains it. (Except for the Law Lords, of course, who are nowadays fiersome intellects with more experience and expertise than all the judges in any two US states.)

    On the "refute" thing, I noticed that politicians are also using "resile", which was a new word to me - maybe they're all trying to find new words beginning with "Re" for some reason, it could be a new game of something?


    You can imagine the young turk pols sitting in a Commons bar in the early hours of the morning.

    "OK, first person who manages to get 'ruminant' into an interview or commons statement drinks free for a month."

    "Too easy. How about 'mendicant'?"

    "OK. And one free pint for every bit of legal vocabulary beginning in 're...'"

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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    gah, I can hardly continue arguing if Ive been proven wrong can I
    ...blimey, that's when I get into top gear!

  9. #29
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    Not really!

    Peers have been created for favours they've done for whoever's in power since 1066. It's a bit late to start getting all hot under the collar about it.
    Oh good. Let's just stop worrying about war, famine, plague, and pestilence as well, while we're at it. After all they've being going on even longer and not been fixed yet either. It seems Bad Grammer is the "Horseman of the Apocalypse" we should have been getting annoyed about all this time

    Excuse my misplaced sense of perspective on this particular issue. We're apparently only a charge sheet away from a Prime Ministerial resignation now, anyway. Though that's probably journo wishful thinking.

  10. #30
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M View Post
    Oh good. Let's just stop worrying about war, famine, plague, and pestilence as well, while we're at it. After all they've being going on even longer and not been fixed yet either. It seems Bad Grammer is the "Horseman of the Apocalypse" we should have been getting annoyed about all this time
    I expanded on what I said a couple of posts ago.

    But hey! I'm not picking you up for bad spelling, am I?

  11. #31
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    But hey! I'm not picking you up for bad spelling, am I?
    Irony, BS.

  12. #32
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    :

    I see he has quoted from the American Heritage Dictionary; I will have to check a more authoritative source and get back to you.
    I've checked the Shorter Oxford for you. See here.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I've checked the Shorter Oxford for you. See here.
    Yeah, thanks, saw that after I posted.

    I would put it more strongly than the editors do. Just as I would vehemently deny that "new-queuelar" is any type of variant pronunciation of "new-clear" or that "eye-dillic" is allowable instead of "id-illic".

  14. #34
    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Shnikov View Post
    I would put it more strongly than the editors do. Just as I would vehemently deny that "new-queuelar" is any type of variant pronunciation of "new-clear" or that "eye-dillic" is allowable instead of "id-illic".
    They don't make the rules – no-one does – they just document common usage. You can refute it as much as you like – doesn't change the language back to what it was a hundred years ago.

    If enough people decide that a "Barry" is a noun that means "yet another rant about not much at all", and should be pronounced as "Bear-y", then it will go in the dictionary with that meaning, and that pronunciation.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

  15. #35
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    If enough people decide that a "Barry" is a noun that means "yet another rant about not much at all", and should be pronounced as "Bear-y", then it will go in the dictionary with that meaning, and that pronunciation.
    Count me in as one of the "enough". Or maybe you should set up a poll to decide a definition

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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    They don't make the rules – no-one does – they just document common usage.
    That's a fair point. But there is also a proscriptive element. No-one says spelling doesn't matter, and we go to dictionaries to decide how a word is spelled; we also go there to decide what a word means. Also, I am aware that if enough people use 'refute' meaning 'reject' and do it for long enough, the definition will change. You only have to look at what 'gay' meant in the 1950s and what it meant in the 1980s. But that is partly my point; we have a perfectly good word (several, probably) that mean 'reject' but only one that means 'refute'.
    If enough people decide that a "Barry" is a noun that means "yet another rant about not much at all", and should be pronounced as "Bear-y", then it will go in the dictionary with that meaning, and that pronunciation.
    Which would be fame on a par with being insulted by Jade Goody. Will you be submitting it to the lexicographers?

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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Free and equally learned tome:
    Why not debate or come to a solution with this venerable and respected online dictionary?

    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/

    *ducks out of door as a rotten tomato heads her way*

    Cheers

    Whitetiger

  18. #38
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    Free and equally learned tome:
    Why not debate or come to a solution with this venerable and respected online dictionary?

    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/

    *ducks out of door as a rotten tomato heads her way*

    Cheers

    Whitetiger
    DEBATE ? why debate when pointless bickering, rehashed nonsense, deliberate obfuscation and general silliness serve us so well.

    Or maybe thats just me

  19. #39
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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    DEBATE ? why debate when pointless bickering, rehashed nonsense, deliberate obfuscation and general silliness serve us so well.
    Sussed!

    (curses)

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    Re: Illiteracy at the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by whitetiger1518 View Post
    {little snip}equally learned tome:{bigger snip}
    "learned tome" - now that's what I call English!

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