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Thread: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers/Taxis to be paid..........

  1. #81
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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by JonD View Post
    Are you a lawyer?! I'd have expected Trampy to be pushing for this approach.
    Me? Nah. I'm into criminal law. Steering well clear of any sort of employment law. Thank you. That's why I couldn't be bothered reading the legislation!

    Of course, if anyone needs a good criminal lawyer. Well, in about 1.5 years time...

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by JonD View Post
    I doubt if insurance provisions come into it - people you pay (in whatever form - benefit or cash), no matter if they are a "worker" or an "employee", are covered by your liability insurance.
    Likewise with Health and Safety - you need to provide safe working conditions and training if required for eg volunteers as well as staff. (I work alongside volunteers every day.)

    I know taxi dancers maybe aren't volunteers because they do receive some benefit, but to me it feels like being a volunteer with the free entry as a 'thank you'.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tramp
    Of course, if anyone needs a good criminal lawyer. Well, in about 1.5 years time...
    I'll plan my crimes accordingly!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    I know taxi dancers maybe aren't volunteers because they do receive some benefit, but to me it feels like being a volunteer with the free entry as a 'thank you'.
    Me too.

    Peversely, if I was asked to coach without getting free entry I'd probably say "yes" but if I was asked to become an employee and be paid to coach I'd probably say "no": where's the logic in that? We humans are strange beasts. Other's have mentioned their desire to keep dancing as a purely social activity and that is certainly one of my reasons. I'd prefer to see my coaching as a voluntary, and very satisfying, way of "giving something back" to a community that gives me enormous pleasure. Putting it on a "job" footing would change that.

    Having thought about my rough calculation of the amount employed taxis would be paid, it occurred to me that Ceroc franchisees could, perhaps, offer their taxis free entry to 2 x Ceroc weekenders per year in lieu of payment or "admit one vouchers". Given the bargain basement prices of some tickets to these events and the cost of travelling to them it should be possible to demonstrate that there is no pecuniary benefit to the taxi dancer. I imagine it would be a pretty attractive incentive. As a spin off benefit, it should also help ensure that a significant number of talented dancers attend Ceroc weekenders so improving the "dance experience" for all attendees. Equally, the organisers of non-Ceroc weekenders could offer an "incentive" service to independent MJ businesses to reward their taxi dancers. Hmmm ..... we run customer loyalty programmes and employee remuneration systems for clients. Perhaps this is a new line of business. What was that I said about keeping dancing as a purely social activity?!

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by JonD View Post
    Are you a lawyer?! I'd have expected Trampy to be pushing for this approach. This kind of thing is defined by case law and being the subject of that defining case is a nightmare. The DTI definitions are pretty clear - if there is no mutuality of obligation then the worker is excluded from the sections of employment law defined in the link I provided.
    Again, I'll take your word for it, but dispute the relevance. For the purposes of this hypothetical discussion only, as far as taxi-dancers go, they are both expected to turn up for their duties according to the rota the franchisee arranges and expect to be used for taxi duties when they so do. To my mind that firmly settles the question of mutuality of obligation in the affirmative, and renders moot further discussion of their status as anything other than employees - save as to to questions of whether they are remunerated for their troubles.
    Quote Originally Posted by JonD
    I doubt if insurance provisions come into it.
    If a taxi-dancer slips or trips and is injured, or slips and injures someone then I suspect questions as to their status will be asked. Particularly if an agrieved punter decides to sue the franchisee for the actions of their "employee". A fervent hope that it never happens (which I've no doubt we share) is a poor substiute for knowing the answer in advance!

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG
    For the purposes of this hypothetical discussion only, as far as taxi-dancers go, they are both expected to turn up for their duties according to the rota the franchisee arranges and expect to be used for taxi duties when they so do.
    You're right; it could be a grey area. My experience is one thing but I can't comment on how the various Ceroc franchises operate their taxi systems. There certainly isn't a "mutuality of obligation" here in Exeter. If I can't turn up for a particular duty I try and arrange cover on an informal basis with my fellow coaches but, if that isn't possible, I simply tell Nelson I won't be coaching on that night and it's up to him to fix the problem. There aren't any come backs and I'm not penalised in any way. Equally, on those very rare occasions when Nelson can't run a Jive night when I'm due to be coaching he doesn't offer me any form of compensation. We have no contract, written or implied, between us and the "work", while regular, is dependent on his ability to supply it and my willingness to undertake it. We both understand that. Therefore, there is no mutuality of obligation. I'd imagine most places are the same. Mind you, it would be sensible and simple to document that understanding.

    In the event of a damages claim, the organiser's public liability insurance would cover them for their own actions or those acting on their behalf. I doubt if the exact nature of the relationship between organiser and the person acting on their behalf, in DTI or even HMRC terms, would be a major issue as it could clearly be shown that such a relationship did exist (wearing a taxi t-shirt, crew photos etc.). Equally, I can't see much difference in a suit resulting from an injury to a taxi dancer and that from a normal punter so I doubt that the exact nature of the relationship in DTI or HMRC terms would be at issue. But, I'm not a lawyer or a loss adjuster so I could well be wrong and I have little else to contribute to the subject.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    So how does it work?? Is the minimum wage less tax & NI, for the evening, more or less then the admit ones they get. Also some franchisees allow crew to get in free to all their venues, every week. In whose best interest is this set up??

    Also, can they claim for treatments needed coz someone's yanked their shoulder out of place & they are in agony the next day, or been trodden on.

    On the plus side it would be nice to see demo's & teacher's actually dancing with people rather than with whom they like or not at all.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy Locket View Post
    ...On the plus side it would be nice to see demo's & teacher's actually dancing with people rather than with whom they like or not at all.
    I am led to believe that the phrase "work the floor" has been much in prominence. CC is changing ...

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy Locket View Post
    So how does it work?? Is the minimum wage less tax & NI, for the evening, more or less then the admit ones they get. Also some franchisees allow crew to get in free to all their venues, every week. In whose best interest is this set up??
    I'm sure it will end up costing the franchise more, apart from anything else the extra administration in recruitment, having to pay taxis to attend training etc. I'm sure they have thought all that through. And it will probably be of more benefit to the taxis as their admit ones or free entry (whichever way the franchise works) is only of benefit if they go and use that - wheras if they are paid then they can spend that income on whatever they want.

    There is I suppose a risk that people will taxi as a source of extra income, rather than for the pleasure of helping others, but I don't think its going to pay enough for that to be much of an issue. Of course there will need to be careful management of rotas as it would be unfair for some taxis to get more hours to work than others.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy Locket View Post
    Also, can they claim for treatments needed coz someone's yanked their shoulder out of place & they are in agony the next day, or been trodden on.
    As I understand it, that should already be covered under health and safety at work, and a change from volunteer/worker to employee would not affect this.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Of course there will need to be careful management of rotas as it would be unfair for some taxis to get more hours to work than others.
    Why would that be unfair? Surely a franchisee can emply whoever he/she likes, however often he/she likes?

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo View Post
    Why would that be unfair? Surely a franchisee can emply whoever he/she likes, however often he/she likes?
    It may not be legally unfair for workers on equal pay and T&C being given different opportunities to work, but it could be seen as being unfair if certain taxis were being given eg weekly taxi slots, and others one a month.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    It may not be legally unfair for workers on equal pay and T&C being given different opportunities to work, but it could be seen as being unfair if certain taxis were being given eg weekly taxi slots, and others one a month.
    Surely you'd want to give the better Taxi dancers first choice, if they can't or don't want to work then go down the list to the less able and experienced? Orchestras work by giving first choice of concerts to their longest-serving players. That rewards loyalty and long service. Younger players get the out-of-town or less reputable venues until they work their way up the ladder. Airline pilots are given choice of route stricly in order of seniority. Wouldn't something like that be the way to go?

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Interesting thread, apologies for not having read all the posts dued to volume but some excellent points being made. Like a few others, I'm curious as to what extent this move, if true, is to with belatedly conforming to legal requirements. If legal requirements do in fact apply, I wonder what the impact will be on other MJ organisations. The fundamental point is that 'crew' are no longer 'volunteers'. Benefits in kind do change the situtaion. However, given the range and complexity of employment legislation and responsibilties, I wonder if it will make true conformance possible/practical.

    From a crew point of view, I doubt that being seen as an employee will be a positive step. What happens if you get sacked, does this have to be disclosed when going for job interviews.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus View Post
    From a crew point of view, I doubt that being seen as an employee will be a positive step.
    Hmmm - depends what goes with it I think, and depends on what reasons people have for being a taxi dancer.

    If you're thinking "career progression", it might be useful to have it on a more formal basis.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    As a former taxi dancer (albeit not for very long) I think this recent development by Ceroc should be treated with caution if you are a taxi dancer.

    In my view people taxi because they want to put something back and they enjoy sharing their enjoyment of Ceroc. Being paid money for a few hours work each week or every other week will be so insignificant that I really don't think it will be worth the grief of submitting P60's or P45's or whatever paperwork will be necessary. If I were still a taxi and had to be paid, this would involve my having to inform my employer as it's a condition of my employment - something that I wouldn't have been prepared to do.

    I also think that if I were an employee of Ceroc (taxi dancer) then I would feel compelled to add this to my CV - again something that I wouldn't want to bring to the attention of any potential employer.

    I'm also wondering whether being an employee means that you are vulnerable to being sued in the event of a personal injury claim. Ceroc insurance I'm sire like any insurance won't protect you against gross negligence.

    Taxi dancing is meant to be a bit of fun, this all seems very serious and bureaucratic. I can only think that Ceroc will be expecting more from its crew and maybe they will have to be on duty later etc. If this is the case, I think they will have even more recruitment problems.

    If I were still a taxi dancer there is no way that I would be prepared to have another employer.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    ... If I were still a taxi and had to be paid, this would involve my having to inform my employer as it's a condition of my employment - something that I wouldn't have been prepared to do.

    I also think that if I were an employee of Ceroc (taxi dancer) then I would feel compelled to add this to my CV - again something that I wouldn't want to bring to the attention of any potential employer.
    Could you expand on your reasoning here? Is your current employer particularly anti-dancing? Does your hobby embarass you? Do you feel being a dancer would make you a less attractive job candidate?

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    Being paid money for a few hours work each week or every other week will be so insignificant that I really don't think it will be worth the grief of submitting P60's or P45's or whatever paperwork will be necessary.
    Its not really that much of a problem - your employer in each job should sort it all out for you. Last year at one stage I had 3 different employers - one of those for a position in which I only worked 2 hours a week. They sorted out all my tax and NIC (all my allowances were used up on my main job) at source. It wasn't complicated for me at all. I presume Ceroc would do the same.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    If I were still a taxi and had to be paid, this would involve my having to inform my employer as it's a condition of my employment - something that I wouldn't have been prepared to do.
    I must say that baffles me too... what's your reasoning?
    Quote Originally Posted by scottwin
    I'm also wondering whether being an employee means that you are vulnerable to being sued in the event of a personal injury claim. Ceroc insurance I'm sire like any insurance won't protect you against gross negligence.
    Is committing an act of gross negligence something you like to do often while taxiing? I'm astonished.

    Joking aside, you're in a stronger position as an employee, not a weaker one, since your employer is responsible for your actions. (Although it's been suggested in this thread that merely by wearing a taxi shirt you'd be covered as an employee in the event of a claim.)
    Quote Originally Posted by scottwin
    Taxi dancing is meant to be a bit of fun,
    Ah... I think that might be a misunderstanding between you and your franchisee. It's supposed to be fun, certainly, but at least to the franchisee it's much more than a "bit of fun" - it's an important role, and important that it's done properly!
    Last edited by El Salsero Gringo; 20th-November-2006 at 01:09 AM.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Having checked, I should like to aknowledge by the way that Lynn was right (and I was wrong): when an employment earns you less that £8500 per year (and you're not a company director) then benefits in kind provided by that employer remain untaxed.

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    Re: Formal employment of Taxi Dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo View Post
    Having checked, I should like to aknowledge by the way that Lynn was right (and I was wrong): when an employment earns you less that £8500 per year (and you're not a company director) then benefits in kind provided by that employer remain untaxed.
    Hmmm - so why not leave them as benefits in kind then? Seems that Ceroc is taking on an extra business burden, as obviously tax and NI will need to be paid on actual income?

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