Aspects of the feminine divine in 'modern' religions

[MartinHarper]

The Wikipedia post you've linked states that the difference between the Jewish Tanakh and the Christian OT is that there is a difference in emphasis and interpretation, and that the books come in a slightly different order.

Quoth Wikipedia, "in addition, some Christian groups recognize additional books as canonical members of the Old Testament". I see the addition and removal of entire books as significant. If you don't like that example of changes, DavidJames has provided information about others, and you've mentioned the removal of NT books.

The important thing is that the message is the same.

Absolutely. The various alterations in the Bible as a matter of historical record, and don't pose a fundamental challenge for Christians. Also, I don't see the point in speculating about whether such changes might have made Christianity "anti-woman". It'd make more sense to read the source material in question and judge on that basis.

[Barry Shnikov]

{snip stuff}At the end of the day, it's an academic point with no right or wrong answer - but is interesting to consider.

Correctamundo. I do, however, find it startling that you don't consider that 'Jesus as a family man' would have made a significant difference to christian orthodoxy. I take your point that it wouldn't change the key doctrines, but man! he is portrayed as an ascetic, rather than a bloke.

[Barry Shnikov]

So Barry was right then ?

It's a dreadful habit - I'm trying to quit, but you know - there's the diet as well...

[Barry Shnikov]

Just re-read my post and realised the following seemed very sexist!

"Oh, and although the Bible frowns upon sex outside of marriage, it doesn't condemn it - in fact, it actually suggests that married women shouldn't withold it!"

It also states that men should treat their women fairly. Wasn't as clear I could have been, my apologies.

I think you mis-wrote yourself even so - did you really intend to say that the Bible suggests that married women shouldn't withhold "sex outside of marriage"?

[andystyle]

I think you mis-wrote yourself even so - did you really intend to say that the Bible suggests that married women shouldn't withhold "sex outside of marriage"?

Whups!! That's what you get for trying to work at the same time! Yeah, totally off the line there...what I meant is that woman who are married shouldn't withold sex from their husband, according to the Bible! And then continued to qualify that the Bible also instructs men to look after their wives!

My bad.

Thanks for pointing that out, Barry!

[Barry Shnikov]

The various alterations in the Bible as a matter of historical record, and don't pose a fundamental challenge for Christians.

Well, they do as far as I'm concerned! The idea that a particular text was divinely inspired is rather laughable if a) it does not qualify as the writing of the purported author, b) it clearly includes insertions and deletions from the oldest known version of the text, such alterations based on decisions taken centuries afterwards, and c) it is only the decisions of a handful of people hundreds of years later that determines which are the divinely inspired texts and which ones are earnest imitations (or downright forgeries) so as to decide what books are in 'the canon'. I see that as absolutely a "fundamental challenge" for Christians. We have so many 'sticky' fingers in the pie that it's impossible to tell whether it was really baked by a divine chef.

[andystyle]

Correctamundo. I do, however, find it startling that you don't consider that 'Jesus as a family man' would have made a significant difference to christian orthodoxy.

I guess that's just my view on how, if it said in the Bible Jesus was a family man, it would have affected how Christianity evolved. I just don't think that scenario - which is all it is - can compare to the miracles he performed and his teachings, IMHO.

I take your point that it wouldn't change the key doctrines, but man! he is portrayed as an ascetic, rather than a bloke.[/QUOTE]

Then perhaps his portrayal as him being an ascetic is a clue as to whether or not he was married. And I would imagine he wasn't portrayed as a bloke because he, um, wasn't.

[andystyle]

Quoth Wikipedia, "in addition, some Christian groups recognize additional books as canonical members of the Old Testament". I see the addition and removal of entire books as significant. If you don't like that example of changes, DavidJames has provided information about others, and you've mentioned the removal of NT books.

To re-post what I wrote initially...

You do have a point with the difference between the Catholic and the Protestant versions of the Bible - I've always wondered if the extra books can still be taken as the Word of God (I'm Protestant, btw) even if they aren't in the bible I have. Although the general faith is the same, Catholic and Protestant theologies vary, for example Catholic prayers for the dead as an act of intersession. It would likely have something to do with this. However, there would have had to have been a very good reason for removing these books and it would have been a matter of serious debate - not something taken lightly.

This goes for OT as well as NT.

Absolutely. The various alterations in the Bible as a matter of historical record, and don't pose a fundamental challenge for Christians. Also, I don't see the point in speculating about whether such changes might have made Christianity "anti-woman". It'd make more sense to read the source material in question and judge on that basis.

[andystyle]

We have so many 'sticky' fingers in the pie that it's impossible to tell whether it was really baked by a divine chef.

And yet, Christianity is a major religion in the world with dozens of denominations, attracting people from all over the world and from different walks of life to commit their lives to Jesus Christ. These people all clearly believe in the Bible...this isn't the Dark Ages now, where the serfs and peasants of the field would toe the line under fear of excommunication. There are large numbers of well-educated Christians who can accept that despite the changes in the Bible, the message is still consistent throughout - take any number of different Bible translations and see for yourself.

Yes, if books are removed that can be seen as cause for concern - but do we know the reasons, or are we speculating without the full facts? God acts in all our lives, whether we choose to acknowledge Him or not, and I believe that he would have acted in the minds of those altering the Bible.

[Dreadful Scathe]

And yet, Christianity is a major religion in the world with dozens of denominations, attracting people from all over the world and from different walks of life to commit their lives to Jesus Christ. These people all clearly believe in the Bible..

You're speaking for all Christians again, they "all clearly believe". I thought we already agreed that people may label themselves Christian without having any interest in living what you and others would consider a Christian lifestyle. Christianity is a major religion because of the number if people who consider themselves "Christian" , and we know for a fact that you can count your usual quota of psychopaths and evil mutants among that number - they are, after all, human like the rest of us.

this isn't the Dark Ages now

We may have lightbulbs - but frankly, its still pretty dark.

There are large numbers of well-educated Christians who can accept that despite the changes in the Bible, the message is still consistent throughout - take any number of different Bible translations and see for yourself.

And there are also large numbers who accept what they want to accept. Christian sects cant even agree on something as simple as the Ten Commandments. And theres only 10 of them

God acts in all our lives, whether we choose to acknowledge Him or not, and I believe that he would have acted in the minds of those altering the Bible.

I agree. God, if he exists, would act in our lives whether we choose to acknowledge him or not, but billions disagree with you assertion that he exists. Are you not talking a bit of a risk not believing in the hundreds of other gods in the world ? better off to hedge your bets in my opinion What if some of the other gods influenced the Bible writers ?
religion sizes in the world

[andystyle]

You're speaking for all Christians again, they "all clearly believe". I thought we already agreed that people may label themselves Christian without having any interest in living what you and others would consider a Christian lifestyle.

I preceded "all clearly believe" with "people from all over the world and from different walks of life to commit their lives to Jesus Christ". I have already stated that when I refer to a Christian, I mean someone who has accepted Christ into their lives, and that decision has made a profound change to the way they live that life. That is what I stated above. I repeat that I am not talking about someone who is generically Christian due to the culture they were born into and who has not made that commitment to Christ - the people you say:

label themselves Christian without having any interest in living what you and others would consider a Christian lifestyle.

I agree that it would be a gross generalisation for me to state that all who consider themselves Christian for cultural reasons "all clearly believe". Yet I have not done this. You have said above:

without having any interest in living what you and others would consider a Christian lifestyle

It is these "others" that I am referring to.

And there are also large numbers who accept what they want to accept.

That's the result of the free will that we were given - the ability to choose what we believe/accept. Even amongst Christians, there is a myriad of ways in which we can interpret passages. One person's view isn't exactly the same as another's - sometimes these views differ enough to form a schism...hence the number of denominations in the world.

Christian sects cant even agree on something as simple as the Ten Commandments. And theres only 10 of them

In what sense? People may debate how they apply to every instance, but can you show me what you mean - I'm not challenging, I'm genuinely curious.

I agree. God, if he exists, would act in our lives whether we choose to acknowledge him or not, but billions disagree with you assertion that he exists. Are you not talking a bit of a risk not believing in the hundreds of other gods in the world ? better off to hedge your bets in my opinion

Can you back up your statement that billions disagree? As for the rest...are you not taking even more of a risk by hedging your bets? I don't know what your personal belief is, but would it not be better to follow the faith that best suits you rather than sit on the fence? That's back to the free will - we can believe and follow who or what we choose. Also, you stated above:

God, if he exists

and

What if some of the other gods influenced the Bible writers?

So you doubt the existence of God as defined by Christianity, but are happy to accept that there are other gods that can influence those who are Christian?

[Barry Shnikov]

Yes, if books are removed that can be seen as cause for concern - but do we know the reasons, or are we speculating without the full facts? God acts in all our lives, whether we choose to acknowledge Him or not, and I believe that he would have acted in the minds of those altering the Bible.

There is a horse in harness staring at the back of a cart here.

God doesn't act in all our lives, because there is no such entity. One of the things you and other christians say to justify your claims is that the Bible provides evidence (for many, provides proof) of the existence of God. I say, pshaw! (which isn't easy, I can tell you,) pshaw! - the book is a nonsense collection of verbal meanderings written from an entire spectrum of motives, pompous, violent, riven with factual errors, without internal consistency, hopelessly inappropriate for the 21st century and finally demonstrating nothing more than that homo sapiens sapiens are all suckers for a good story.

I don't need to speculate about those things, they are self evident. It is for others to speculate how it might be that a divine being could 'inspire' such an enormous quantity of meretricious ambiguity and then expect intelligent beings to use it as a design for living.

[MartinHarper]

Can you back up your statement that billions disagree?

Non-monotheistic religious beliefs are held by 2-3 billion people.
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

The number rises if you believe that the Islamic and Jewish Gods are not the Christian God.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Non-monotheistic religious beliefs are held by 2-3 billion people.
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

The number rises if you believe that the Islamic and Jewish Gods are not the Christian God.

did you notice that your link is exactly the same as in my post. Andystyle might miss the it for the 2nd time

[MartinHarper]

did you notice that your link is exactly the same as in my post. Andystyle might miss the it for the 2nd time

I did notice.

If he spots it in my post after missing it in yours, does that make me a better writer?

[Dreadful Scathe]

It is these "others" that I am referring to.

Indeed. But I continue to point out this use of Christian, because it seems to me you are committing a fallacy - namely the only Christians you are talking about are the ones that may agree with you, the others may label themselvfes "Christian" but they're not really. Its really another way of stating "the Christians who think as I do, agree with me" which doesn't really help any argument.

That's the result of the free will that we were given - the ability to choose what we believe/accept.

Nobody chooses what to believe, in my opinion. We receive information about the world around us and automatically find ourselves believing, or not. We can choose to think more critically and, through open mindedness and education, find our beliefs changing - but there is no choice only acceptance or denial. I cannot say, "tomorrow Ill believe in fairies". For that to be true I'd still need to find a reason, I cant lie to myself .

In what sense? People may debate how they apply to every instance, but can you show me what you mean - I'm not challenging, I'm genuinely curious.

Ive already posted a link on this. The Catholic and Protestant commandments differ, so its not a debate.

I don't know what your personal belief is, but would it not be better to follow the faith that best suits you rather than sit on the fence? That's back to the free will - we can believe and follow who or what we choose.

As far as Religion is concerned, I've never met anyone who "sits on the fence", they either believe in - a religion or gods or both - or they don't.

So you doubt the existence of God as defined by Christianity, but are happy to accept that there are other gods that can influence those who are Christian?

I have not stated what I personally doubt, but I fail to see how disbelief in one god prevents belief in others. If you consider that you are practically an atheist yourself (i.e. you just
believe in 1 more god than an atheist does, out of the thousands that are still believed, or were believed, somewhere in the world) you can maybe consider that you may be wrong and the Bible, although divinely inspired - was inspired by Loki, the very cheeky Norse God

[Dreadful Scathe]

I did notice.

If he spots it in my post after missing it in yours, does that make me a better writer?

you've got HarperLink named after you, of course you're a better writer

[David Bailey]

Nobody chooses what to believe, in my opinion.

I do! I'm a free thinker. Just like everyone else.

[Dreadful Scathe]

I do! I'm a free thinker. Just like everyone else.

oooh you've got to be difficult...

[andystyle]

did you notice that your link is exactly the same as in my post. Andystyle might miss the it for the 2nd time

Beg pardon. I have limited net access at work and that site was barred. Hence I couldn't view it! Luckily this one isn't...although the amount of time I have spent on it recently might alter that...