Boot Camp

[killingtime]

With the number of Mac users on this forum I thought I'd ask "What do you think of booting Windows on your Intel Mac"? I mean part of me thinks: Why would I want to take my beautiful Mac and run Windows? As a Slashdotter said (from BBC News): "You get the stability of Windows with the value-of-money of Apple hardware. Sign me up."

On the other hand you can run those apps that don't have OSX versions (including a wide range of games) and you can always spend most of your time in OSX which is lovely. I've come to the conclusion that it is a good thing but then what do I know?

Edit: Boot Camp link if you don't know what I'm talking about.

[Clive Long]

With the number of Mac users on this forum I thought I'd ask "What do you think of booting Windows on your Intel Mac"? I mean part of me thinks: Why would I want to take my beautiful Mac and run Windows? As a Slashdotter said (from BBC News): "You get the stability of Windows with the value-of-money of Apple hardware. Sign me up."

On the other hand you can run those apps that don't have OSX versions (including a wide range of games) and you can always spend most of your time in OSX which is lovely. I've come to the conclusion that it is a good thing but then what do I know?

.

Exactly!

For me it is all about application support

I would love to junk Windows to nestle in the warm, robust embrace of Linux.

Office document support is admirably covered by Open Office.

But I need Quicken and MS-Project.

I have trialled CrossOver (?) based on Wine to host Windows apps - and I gave up trying to install Quicken after 5 attempts. It may be possible - but I just ran out of time - so I have to keep a flaky Windows machine for those two applications.

There are many, many native Linux apps but there are always crucial gaps - for example a "podcast reader" that works as seamlessly as I-tunes. Juicer may do it - but it isn't released on Linux

Clive

[ducasi]

All it really means to me is there's a greater chance that we'll be able to buy Macs rather than PC for our secretaries. If in the future they are forced to use Windows, we don't need to buy new hardware.

For me, dual-booting isn't a good solution. I'm probably going to buy a new iMac soon. It'll be taking the place of my G4 that runs my email and web servers. I can't keep shutting it down and booting into a different OS.

If they get virtualisation going, I might be interested, but there's very few times I've needed a PC running Windows or Linux, and when I do, I have lots all around me at work...

(EDIT: Including a Sony Vaio that I'd really like to accidentally drop out the window just now... Do you think it'd survive a 12-floor drop? :oops:)

[Clive Long]

All it really means to me is there's a greater chance that we'll be able to buy Macs rather than PC for our secretaries. ...

Secretaries? Secretaries?

I remember someone telling me once of these mythical creatures.

Aren't they from a gentler inefficient time when people thought (silly them) it was cheaper for less experienced staff to be employed to do the photocopying, arrange rooms, arrange travel, etc.?

Silly naive people that they were organising their staff in such a manner.

CRL

[ducasi]

Aren't they from a gentler inefficient time when people thought (silly them) it was cheaper for less experienced staff to be employed to do the photocopying, arrange rooms, arrange travel, etc.?

Our secretaries aren't "less experienced", and when it comes to running an academic department, they tend to do a much better job than any number of academics.

Let's hear it for secretaries!

[azande]

Very interesting (at least for me ) analysis on Boot Camp on Daring Fireball.

[killingtime]

Very interesting (at least for me ) analysis on Boot Camp on Daring Fireball.

That was a very interesting article . He made some really good points about the system plus I like the quote at the end.

[Penfold]

As a mac person I agree it is a good thing to be able to boot XP, I also think this http://www.virtualization.info/2006/...tion-beta.html virtualisation will be equally as useful.

[ducasi]

Very interesting (at least for me ) analysis on Boot Camp on Daring Fireball.

Yeah, interesting article. I pretty much agree with his analysis...

One thing though, that might stop me buying a Mac if I was looking to mainly run Windows XP on it, and that is it won't support all the hardware fully, and there'll be no "value-added" bundled software for Windows.

[killingtime]

One thing though, that might stop me buying a Mac if I was looking to mainly run Windows XP on it, and that is it won't support all the hardware fully, and there'll be no "value-added" bundled software for Windows.

You do have to buy another license to then use Windows. As for the hardware I think it does. Someone at my work installed it on his MacBook Pro and says it works like a treat. I suppose Apple's controlled list of hardware probably makes writing drivers a lot easier then the plethora of hardware options presented on a PC.

[Dreadful Scathe]

and says it works like a treat.

Theres a version of windows that works like a treat?

[David Franklin]

Yeah, interesting article. I pretty much agree with his analysis...

I'm not so sure. The "make Windows the Mac-ghetto" argument has some merit, but there's definitely a flip side - yes, the reasonably large companies will bring out OS X versions. But for a smaller company, supporting Mac and PC has quite a high cost; not just in coding, but in terms of things like documentation and technical support as well. It's something they'd much rather avoid if they could.

Now currently, telling Mac customers "buy a PC if you want to use our product" is not a terribly realistic option, so if you don't support Mac, you lose all of that customer base. But once you're telling them "you'll have to run a virtual Windows session to use our product", there are a lot more customers who will grumble, but won't actually baulk at it. So the business case for a Mac OS version is weakened. For example, the general consensus on the game development forums seems to be most developers won't bother with Mac OS versions - they'll just tell people to run the games from Windows. Of course, only a few (typically larger) game developers currently bother with Mac versions anyhow, so this may not mean too much!

I think you're going to have two opposing tensions. If enough software runs on OS X and looks a lot better there, there will be a lot of pressure on "borderline-cases" to go that extra mile and bring out an OS X version. But conversely, if lots of software runs well enough in a Windows session, some of those borderline-cases will be saying "you know, is it really worth our while bothering with OS X?".

Who knows how it will turn out? The biggest factor looks to be MS's implosion with Vista - if it's as bad as the rumours say, it may well tip things in Apple's favour.

[ducasi]

I'd heard that things like iSight (on the iMac), the fancy illuminated keyboard (on the MacBook Pro), and the IR controller didn't work (as yet?)

The licence for Windows probably wouldn't be a problem for me...

[drathzel]

maybe i am stupid or summit but why by a mac and then use pc software? Why not buy a pc?

Dont worry guys i'm now a mac-ie!

[killingtime]

maybe i am stupid or summit but why by a mac and then use pc software? Why not buy a pc?

I'd totally use OSX in favour of Windows it's just that sometimes there is software that you really want to use (or that you have to use) and it is Windows only. Now you can run it on your Mac.

A big area is games actually where the Mac doesn't really have an extensive range. Certainly it's just changed to "I'd rather not buy another PC but some games might make me change my mind" to "I'm pretty much a Mac only boy now".

[drathzel]

I'd totally use OSX in favour of Windows it's just that sometimes there is software that you really want to use (or that you have to use) and it is Windows only. Now you can run it on your Mac.

A big area is games actually where the Mac doesn't really have an extensive range. Certainly it's just changed to "I'd rather not buy another PC but some games might make me change my mind" to "I'm pretty much a Mac only boy now".

I dont nkow if i would swap to xp just cuz i want to use a certain program. i like mac and the set up and i suppse i am happy to just use that! Could they not just make things osx friendly rather than try and make us decide whether to use xp or osx.

If you want a pc and pc setup then should you not just buy a pc?

[Clive Long]

With the number of Mac users on this forum I thought I'd ask "What do you think of booting Windows on your Intel Mac"? I mean part of me thinks: Why would I want to take my beautiful Mac and run Windows? As a Slashdotter said (from BBC News): "You get the stability of Windows with the value-of-money of Apple hardware. Sign me up."
<< snip >>

Gary (or anyone else)

Has anyone experience of running

Bootcamp >>> http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/

or Virtual PC on a mac (mini spec c. 1.7GHz) >> http://www.apple.com/macosx/applications/virtualpc/

I'm interested in following order:

1. Stability of Win XP applications in use on mac
2. "Faithfullness" to read and write Windows media especially burining CDs
3. Printer support especially printing postscript or graphics documents
4. Ease of installation of Win XP applications onto Mac
5. Ease of use of "special" keys e.g. CTL and functon keys using Mac keyboard
6. Performance of Windows applications in use
7. Speed of loading windows or applications (cursory reading suggests Bootcamp is a dual boot facility)
8. Is it possible to write files to a shared partition to share in either mac or windows xp mode?


Thanks

Clive

[ducasi]

Gary (or anyone else)

Has anyone experience of running

Bootcamp >>> http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/

or Virtual PC on a mac (mini spec c. 1.7GHz) >> http://www.apple.com/macosx/applications/virtualpc/

One of our secretaries is now using a Mac mini running Windows XP, thanks to Boot Camp.

Also, one of our professors is running Windows XP inside of Mac OS X, thanks to Parallels.

I've run Virtual PC on a Mac – I don't recommend it, it's rather slow.

I'm interested in following order:

1. Stability of Win XP applications in use on mac

For both Parallels and Boot Camp, it's just the same as normal Windows.

2. "Faithfullness" to read and write Windows media especially burining CDs

No problem with Boot Camp, full write access to CD/DVD burner. Unsure about Parallels, but probably OK.

3. Printer support especially printing postscript or graphics documents

No problem with Boot Camp. Unsure about Parallels, but probably OK.

4. Ease of installation of Win XP applications onto Mac

It's just like using a Windows PC.

5. Ease of use of "special" keys e.g. CTL and functon keys using Mac keyboard

We gave our secretary a Windows-compatible keyboard, but a Mac keyboard can do everything you need – it's just some of the keys are in different places. In particular, the "Windows" key and the Alt keys are swapped around. I think you can use software to swap them back again though.

6. Performance of Windows applications in use

Windows runs at full speed using Boot Camp, and at only slightly reduced speed using Parallels.

7. Speed of loading windows or applications (cursory reading suggests Bootcamp is a dual boot facility)

All Macs with Intel chips are quite speedy, so Windows and application load fairly fast. On the Mac mini, because it has a laptop hard disk, it's not as fast as some desktops, but it's still not what you'd call slow.

8. Is it possible to write files to a shared partition to share in either mac or windows xp mode?

Mac OS can read and write to FAT32 partitions, and can read NTFS. Windows can't read Mac partitions without extra software. So if you either make your windows partition FAT32, or have a external drive/USB memory stick, sharing files between Mac OS and Windows should be easy.

With Parallels, I think it can make Mac files available to Windows as a network drive.


There's a third option coming along too. VMware has just released a beta version of their virtual machine engine for the Mac – it has more or less similar features to the Parallels software.

(There's also a new beta release of Parallels that looks like it can make use of a Boot Camp partition – so you can either choose to use Boot Camp directly and boot into Windows alone, or from the same installation of Windows, run it as a virtual machine inside Mac OS X.)

Hope this helps.

[Clive Long]

<< lots of good stuff >>
Hope this helps.

Thanks Ducasi.

I'll suggest Bootcamp as it appears to be "rock-solid" native windows - but with the inconvenience of requiring a re-boot.

If they find that clumsy or inconvenient we will trial Parallels or VMWare.

Clive