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Thread: At what point does dancing become showing off?

  1. #21
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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    If you're referring to my post - then you have a completely different concept of 'leading' than I have.

    And you may not have intended it to be but 'dumb down' sounds rather patronising.
    Not refering you your post. Just making the point in general.

    Was more of a rhetorical question (think thats spelt right) too.

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Not refering you your post. Just making the point in general.

    Was more of a rhetorical question (think thats spelt right) too.
    So what did you mean then? Lead simple moves clearly and well instead of showing off?

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    OK.

    Should a really good lead who executes his / her moves with style grace and precission stop doing so when a less talented follow dances with them who can not cope?

    Should he just stick to beginners moves in fear of making the follow look bad or should he still dance the same in the hope that the follow will learn something new?

    Does this also work the other way round? with a more 'experianced' follow over lead.

    I have a sitting on the fence opinion on this but it has been said before in conversation.

    Just interested in others opinions thats all.

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    First off, there's nothing inherently wrong with showing off. It has a long established history in both solo dance and partner dance. It's not going to stop now. Plus, it's fun.

    Obviously if you focus too much on showing off then other areas of your dancing will suffer. That's the same problem as focusing too much on any single element of dancing. Moderation in all things. If showing off is making you lose the basics, like lead/follow, or eye contact and smiles, stop showing off.

    The big thing to avoid is "outdancing". Don't outdance your partner, don't outdance the venue. It's ok if you do it a bit, but try to avoid it, and certainly don't make a habit out of it.

    Outdancing your partner

    Outdancing your partner is bad because it risks making her look and feel bad. That doesn't mean you have to dance down to their level, but it's good to avoid dancing significantly above their level. As a sample rule of thumb, if your partner can do a single spin, it's fine for you to do a 1.5 spin, but it risks outdancing if you do a double spin.

    The get-out clause for leaders is that if we manage to lead our partners into something amazing, and she recognises that it's amazing and starts feeling that she's amazing, then we can do amazing things too. So try to make your partner look great and feel great first, and then you can show off a bit.

    The get-out clause for followers is that you can dance in a way that makes it look like your partner is leading you to do all this amazing stuff, and/or like you find him irresistably physically attractive. That way the leaders get to look great by association (and feel great too), and when you show off it won't look like you're outdancing him.

    Outdancing the venue

    This only applies if you're the best dancer currently at a venue, or you think you are. It's fine to dance in a way that demonstrates that you're better than everyone else. So, to take spinning as an example, if everyone else can only manage a single spin, and you do a double spin, that's cool.

    What's not cool is to dance in a way that demonstrates that you are three times better than everyone else. So if everyone else can only manage a single spin, this is not the place to be trying out triples. MJ is a social dance, and you should be aware of those around you. Be the best dancer, but no better than that.

    Corollary: if you are dancing MJ in a room full of non-dancers (eg, at a wedding), stick to the basics. Single spins, beginner moves, simple styling, no drops, no aerials.

    ----

    Finally, if you show off in a way that looks terrible, that's no problem. So it's fine to do 10 spins in a row, provided that you fall over straight afterwards. I've even seen very good dancers deliberately insert elements of slapstick into their dancing, and so "get away with" bare-facedly outdancing everyone else in the room. Not a technique for the dignified.

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Ideally, you should dance so that you are both dancing at the best level that you can *both* attain.

    Any higher and you're probably showing off.
    Any lower, and you're not putting in enough effort.

    Picking the current favourite example -- fast multiple spins are fine, provided that they don't upset your partner, e.g. they take the same amount of time.

    Lots of slow multiple spins are probably not acceptable dancing with a beginner -- they won't know how to cope.

    Dancing a lot of slow multiple spins with a more experienced partner is fine -- they should be able to cope and dance on their own for a beat or two -- if they happen to stand there like a lemon waiting for you, then they aren't putting enough effort in to the dance.

    Doesn't matter if it's the leader or the follower doing the spinning

    SpinDr

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?


    alot of concentration on spins there martin but other than that, well put.

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    The big thing to avoid is "outdancing". Don't outdance your partner, don't outdance the venue. It's ok if you do it a bit, but try to avoid it, and certainly don't make a habit out of it.
    The problem is that "showing off" has both negative and positve conatations. So I agree with what Martin's saying if out-dancing is being used in a negative way and your partner comes away feeling like their presence actually made the dance worse than if you'd been solo

    Having said that, at Jango I'd much rather Amir didn't worry about outdancing the rest of us in the freestyle.

    If I'm leading someone who's a better dancer than me, I'd rather they didn't hold back unless it was clearly messing up my lead. If I'm following someone who's a better dancer I'm quite happy for them to do double, triple spins etc to my one. As long as it's still a conversation it's cool.

    I guess for me it's like asking a skateboarder, magician, juggler to show you their latest or signature trick. Doesn't bother me at all that I can't rollerblade downstairs, but it's cool seeing it done.

    As long as there's still connection, I'm happy.

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post

    alot of concentration on spins there martin but other than that, well put.
    Spins make for easy maths. 3 > 2 > 1.

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory View Post
    IMO, It's the point where your own vanity becomes more important than the comfort of partner or where the degree of self importance outweighs consideration on the floor, for that of your fellow dancers.


    but it's also about perception - other people can assume you are showing off if you are just dancing normally, especially if you do anything fancy, and especially if they are non-dancers themselves. I find that as soon as the thought enters my head that people may think I am showing off, I start dancing first moves and hope they look away

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    This all kind of leads on to the question, should a lead dumb down their dancing for a follow if need be?
    Dance is a conversation, you adjust your style to fit the style of the person you are talking to.

    So, in your terms, yes. But I'd phrase it as "dancing appropriately", and by my favourite definition (an advanced dancer is someone who dances with everyone, especially beginners), you'll never get to be advanced if you consider it to be dumbing down.

  11. #31
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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Dance is a conversation, you adjust your style to fit the style of the person you are talking to.

    So, in your terms, yes. But I'd phrase it as "dancing appropriately", and by my favourite definition (an advanced dancer is someone who dances with everyone, especially beginners), you'll never get to be advanced if you consider it to be dumbing down.

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    This all kind of leads on to the question, should a lead dumb down their dancing for a follow if need be?
    "dumbing down" thats sounds SOOO egotistical its unbelievable I assume you meant the rather less arrogant "adjust" ? Everybody changes the way the dance and the moves they do by some degree when dancing with different people or of course to different music - you want to get the most out of the dance and you want to make sure your partner does too. I find the implication that you may consider NOT adjusting to your partner a bit strange to say the least. "They cant handle it, tough, Ill show 'em"

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    "dumbing down" thats sounds SOOO egotistical its unbelievable I assume you meant the rather less arrogant "adjust" ? Everybody changes the way the dance and the moves they do by some degree when dancing with different people or of course to different music - you want to get the most out of the dance and you want to make sure your partner does too. I find the implication that you may consider NOT adjusting to your partner a bit strange to say the least. "They cant handle it, tough, Ill show 'em"

    Yep. Note to self, don't write posts in the early hours of the morning.

    Was pretty harsh in saying Dumb Down and should have said adjust or refrain or what ever the PC term is for this form, but people know what I mean without nit picking.

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    On Monday I tried a venue I've never been to before with an independant local organiser (probably bigger than the local Ceroc franchise, but that's another story!).
    Once I got warmed up and settled in, I was showing off more than I've ever done before.
    I'm not an especially confident or flamboyant dancer so maybe there are levels of showing off, but I think that in this case it was the right thing for me to do.
    Apart from 3 or 4 exceptions, there wasn't an especially high standard of dancer, probably around the same level as me mostly and not many people were using much in the way of styling at all.

    So I camped it up. Used my spare arm more than ever before, snapping my head around at the end of travelling returns, grinning and singing like there was no-one else there.

    Certainly created an impression! I did notice a group, which included some of the staff, hiding behind a pillar watching me at one point. I'd like to think that they liked what I was doing, because they weren't rolling around the floor, laughing and clutching their sides!

    I didn't stop dancing all night and had a great time.
    I'd like to think that the people there saw someone new come along, join in the beginners lesson, dance with everyone in the room and do a few simple little things that they can easily copy and begin to lose their inhibitions.

    So maybe sometimes there is a time and place for a little showing off?

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Was pretty harsh in saying Dumb Down and should have said adjust or refrain or what ever the PC term is for this form, but people know what I mean without nit picking.
    If you are asking 'should you adjust your dancing to suit your partner' it seems a rather obvious question to which the clear and obvious answer is yes. Always.

    You're dancing with your partner, not at them,

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gav View Post
    On Monday I tried a venue I've never been to before with an independant local organiser (probably bigger than the local Ceroc franchise, but that's another story!).
    Once I got warmed up and settled in, I was showing off more than I've ever done before.
    I'm not an especially confident or flamboyant dancer so maybe there are levels of showing off, but I think that in this case it was the right thing for me to do.
    Apart from 3 or 4 exceptions, there wasn't an especially high standard of dancer, probably around the same level as me mostly and not many people were using much in the way of styling at all.

    So I camped it up. Used my spare arm more than ever before, snapping my head around at the end of travelling returns, grinning and singing like there was no-one else there.

    Certainly created an impression! I did notice a group, which included some of the staff, hiding behind a pillar watching me at one point. I'd like to think that they liked what I was doing, because they weren't rolling around the floor, laughing and clutching their sides!

    I didn't stop dancing all night and had a great time.
    I'd like to think that the people there saw someone new come along, join in the beginners lesson, dance with everyone in the room and do a few simple little things that they can easily copy and begin to lose their inhibitions.

    So maybe sometimes there is a time and place for a little showing off?
    Well done Gav, welcome to my little world.

    Showing off is not wrong. It is just a time and a place for it. I won't dance diffrently if I dance will a follow who has a diffrent style, Its hard to adjust over the course of on dance anyhow. If my lead is still done well she would still follow. The showing off part is more about what a spectator would think. What the other dancers one the sides would think.

    I personally don't care if they think Im showing off as long as me and my dance partner are enjoying it what should it matter.

    I like to try and dance every dance as if it's my last.

    What if I danced with someone and we were both showing off, then got asked for a dance by someone who was watching. How would they feel if I didn't put the same amount of effort in?

    Nope you don't change your dancing style to suit your partner, you and your partner change your dancing style to suit the music.

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Was pretty harsh in saying Dumb Down and should have said adjust or refrain or what ever the PC term is for this form, but people know what I mean without nit picking.
    ... but we all ENJOY nitpicking

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Well done Gav, welcome to my little world.

    Showing off is not wrong. It is just a time and a place for it. I won't dance diffrently if I dance will a follow who has a diffrent style, Its hard to adjust over the course of on dance anyhow. If my lead is still done well she would still follow. The showing off part is more about what a spectator would think. What the other dancers one the sides would think.

    I personally don't care if they think Im showing off as long as me and my dance partner are enjoying it what should it matter.

    I like to try and dance every dance as if it's my last.

    What if I danced with someone and we were both showing off, then got asked for a dance by someone who was watching. How would they feel if I didn't put the same amount of effort in?

    Nope you don't change your dancing style to suit your partner, you and your partner change your dancing style to suit the music.
    Thanks m8, but just when you think you're getting somewhere...

    I DO adjust my style to my partner all the time, because my style doesn't suit everyone I dance with and I don't have the right to give them a bad dance just because I like to dance a certain way.
    Like DJ said, it's a conversation. If BOTH parties aren't prepared to listen and compromise it becomes an argument.
    My style is smooth, flowing, short stepping (well sliding really) or at least I like to think it is. If a dance with a bouncy, big stepper and stick to my guns it would be awful! I'll allow them to bounce and follow them through their big steps, but I do expect them to adjust their style to suit me too. When this happens, some of the best dances are created.

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Yep agreed but it is always nice if you both follow the style of music ie, slow smoth to blusey or tango'y tracks, livley and bouncy to a jive or Rn'R track or, dare I say it, Disco'y do a disco track.

    I have danced with partners who will try and stick to a tango feel to something like from 'paris to belin' Im all for wierness and sometimes it works, but should I not dance disco'y to it just because the other person is too stuck in their blues room world?

    Then who is showing off? Me because i double step or my partner because she is doing big round rhondas?

    Sometimes a mixture of styles works.

    Dance partners are like a box of chocolates........

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    Re: At what point does dancing become showing off?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodface View Post
    Dance partners are like a box of chocolates........
    It's always the coffee ones left at the bottom?? (Except in my house, where it's the nuts that are left! )

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