They could use it for the people who forget parts of their costume as well...Originally posted by Will
Nevertheless, I think that Ceroc need to hire a set of Gallows for next years Champs
If you consider it logically - rate all of the dancers in order of ability, then decide where the dividing line between intermediate and advanced is. The couple just below the line is the intermediate champion.
Look at it this way and beginner and intermediate competitions are really contests to see who can just sneak below the dividing line, and far less about dance.
These have to be fun contests, they just cannot work properly any other way.
Originally posted by DavidB
They could use it for the people who forget parts of their costume as well...Dunno what you mean, but i wouldnt have anything bad to say about females forgetting parts of their costume!
All Hail Debster in her tiny shorts
To bring the thread back on topicI agree with you Gus, dance competitions are evil!
While they do provide a showcase for the best (or most exhibitionist) dancers in the world, and allow all of us to have a great day / week-end, they also tend to bring out the worse in some people and can distort the dance in a negative and ultimately self-destructive way.
I am pretty sure that what almost killed Ballroom, from being the Ceroc of its day, when everyone danced, is the strong prevalence of competitions.
As soon as you start setting standards and send a message that this is acceptable and that isn't, then you lose the majority of (potential) dancers, who either can't or won't dance that way...
You turn dancing into a spectator sport. As has been discussed, the skills involved in being a good dancers are very different to the skills involved in winning competitions, and while some people have both, most people have the potential to be good dancers (ie they are great to dance with), but not to show off and win judges...
Having said that, I totally respect that many people enjoy competitions (either to compete or as a show) and would still recommend to everyone to go to all of them, as long as they go with bigdjiver's words of wisdom:Franck.These have to be fun contests, they just cannot work properly any other way.
DittoOriginally posted by Franck
While they do provide a showcase for the best (or most exhibitionist) dancers in the world, and allow all of us to have a great day / week-end, they also tend to bring out the worse in some people and can distort the dance in a negative and ultimately self-destructive way.
As soon as you start setting standards and send a message that this is acceptable and that isn't, then you lose the majority of (potential) dancers, who either can't or won't dance that way...
You turn dancing into a spectator sport. As has been discussed, the skills involved in being a good dancers are very different to the skills involved in winning competitions, and while some people have both, most people have the potential to be good dancers (ie they are great to dance with), but not to show off and win judges...
Having said that, I totally respect that many people enjoy competitions (either to compete or as a show) and would still recommend to everyone to go to all of them, as long as they go with bigdjiver's words of wisdom:Franck.These have to be fun contests, they just cannot work properly any other way.
TT x
I may be not as experienced at competitions, but having been to the Scottish comp last year the strength of it was the fact it was seen as "just for fun". Having agreed or disagreed with the judging the fact the proceeds went to charity and everyone enjoyed it was what counted. Having to go to the expense of getting in experienced judges would
1. cut down the proceeds to charity
2. make it more serious.
A lot of people I ask if they are going say no I'm not good enough and with the scottish comps you can tell them it is more about the dancing and less about the competition.
Last edited by Franck; 8th-March-2005 at 05:22 PM. Reason: Removing Basil Brush quote
Spot on, Peter. It will be a great shame if the vast majority of Scottish (and other) dancers who are never going to be competition winners are put off by the idea that they aren't good enough to even attend never mind compete. Eg, the Lucky Dip is so open that virtually any "intermediate" woman must stand a chance of at least reaching the final if she gets the right guy - don't think it works the other way, though!
And irrespective of the standard/calibre/experience of the judges there will always be disagreements with the marks, because of the subjective element of judging dance. Nothing wrong per se with having non-Ceroc judges, but it is a "Ceroc" competition after all! Anyway, last year the judges weren't all Ceroc teachers as our very own ODA (Gus) was resplendent in his blue-and-white non-Ceroc rugby shirt!
There's no point in the Scottish event trying to be a pale imitation of other competitions, it has to have a USP (Unique Selling Point) of its own - currently it perhaps has 2 (all proceeds to charity, emphasis on fun rather than success at all costs) although the Brighton Stomping event is also charity based - and maybe others.
So please, Scot, if you can achieve the balance you did last year between a professional approach/organisation, and the emphasis on enjoyment/participation of everyone involved, then you won't go far wrong.
Having, unintentionally, caused some vociferous debate I thought the time had come to come clean on what I actually thought.
To be honest, have a split heart about competitions.
On the good side, they motivate dancers to improve both their style and repertoire, they are the catalyst for the development of new moves and styles, they bring new dancers to the attention of a greater audience and they make for a great showcase of the better aspects of modern jive.
On the bad side, they emphasis the flashy, selfish dance style, they feed and create egos, dancers focus more on competition ‘style’ than enjoying the dancing and sharing their time with other dancers, the results are always up to question has no one really knows what the criteria to win is, there is still a nagging doubt as to whether the best dancers actually compete....
So ... are they a good thing? On balance .... probably. As someone earlier said, let those who want to compete, compete. However, maybe we should all keep in mind its just for fun and maybe doesn’t mean much......
It's so nice to receive the honourable mention as being the "but not with Nigel". Of course, Nina was dancing with me as Popeye to her Olive Oyl. I really didn't know Nina at all well when I 'phoned her, told her it was Andy McGregor and asked her to be my partner in the Ceroc champs - her initial response was "Andy who?". As soon as I explained I was the hooker in the pink wig at Blackpool with the Rugby playing Steve Lampert and Rob Coward she didn't hesitate in saying "OK, it'll be a laugh". And we did have such a laugh (although it was difficult to laugh too much with a pretend pipe in your mouth!!!). We didn't enter to win, which was obvious, we were even quite surprised to get through the first round. But we had a great time and I found something I do better than Nigel who said "I've never seen Nina laugh so much".Originally posted by Bill
I enjoy watching competitions but it is interesting that some of the 'best' couples didn't dance together at the Open in London. Nina was there but not with Nigel, V & L weren't there; Lily, but not David ( well he was there but he didn't compete). The Open was the only reason I went this year and I really enjoyed it but personally I still don't like competing much myself.
To me what dancing competitions are about is entertainment - your own or other people's. And in my opinion modern jive competitions are about who can be the most enteraining. The audience see a show and are entertained and the performers have a great time doing it. To paraphrase a verse from a song in All That Jazz;
The audience loves us
And we love them
And they love us for loving them
And we all love each other
The only problem I've got now is the acceptance that I'm never going to win - if I couldn't win with Nina...
Diverging a little from the original debate, I have to reply to Andy's comments. I thoroughly enjoyed yours and Nina's performance at the Champs, and felt the judges missed a lot of the subtle nuances of your dancing. I found it thoroughly entertaining whilst having quite lyrical moments - is this sounding yeuchy? - and all this in a freestle arena!!!
On the few occasions I have danced with you Andy it has always been THE most fun and enjoyable experience. However, dance competitions is a love/hate thing. Personally I feel it has improved my dancing no end - I like to have something to aspire to, and to be inspired.
Will greater emphasis on competitions kill the social dance arena? I don't think so just yet. There are many people who are happy with the level they are at and dance purely for social reasons. The downside of competitions is that some people feel alienated because they become too shy/nervous to ask a "competition" dancer for a dance. Personally the buzz I get which beats doing any competitions, is the unexpected "connection" you sometimes get when you dance with someone you have never met before!
Anyway, that's my late night, rambling, twopennyworth.
See you all on the dancefloor. Night, night.y
From what you just said I would say you did win and I wasn't there. But it depends on your definition of winning.Originally posted by Andy McGregor
But we had a great time and I found something I do better than Nigel who said "I've never seen Nina laugh so much".
~snip~
The only problem I've got now is the acceptance that I'm never going to win - if I couldn't win with Nina...
Mary, I love you. It's so nice to be appreciated for my art form - and it's so easy to achieve, I just miss a dose of my medication... ..and go dancing! (please, don't tell my Psychiatrist).Originally posted by Mary
On the few occasions I have danced with you Andy it has always been THE most fun and enjoyable experience.
Personally the buzz I get which beats doing any competitions, is the unexpected "connection" you sometimes get when you dance with someone you have never met before!
You get that 'connection' too? The one where it's just you, your partner and the music? The one that seems to last for ever, but be over in a moment? I always feel so awkward at the end. What should you do? There's that time just after the music stops when you come back to earth, look at each other and realise you've shared something quite heavenly and intimate. And then reality comes crashing in. You realise this person that you've just shared something special with is a total stranger, you don't know them at all, you feel guilty because you might have led them on, your wife might spot you, you don't know what to say and you're so deeply moved you might not be able to speak if you tried anyway - and then you realise you're STILL HOLDING THEIR HAND!
Where was I? Oh yes, competitions. I think that for most social dancers competitions currently make no difference at all. There must be at least 300 modern jive classes with an average of 100 people a night. That's a guestimated 30,000 people a week. Just over 1,000 of us go to competitions, less than 4% of people dancing each week. Let's not fool ourselves, some of us guys are competitive. And now that women are the new men they want to be out there competing with us.
The only thing that worries me about competitions is the judging. How come almost everyone who got a medal at the Ceroc champs was young and good looking? We know a young pretty couple are more eye-catching than a less attractive couple who maybe dance better. But who should get the prize in a DANCE contest? I wonder if Christopher Dean would have done so well with Jayne Torville if she'd looked like me? I suppose it depends on the judges and how they're briefed.
Which brings me onto a subject I've done something about rather than just moaning. I've been thinking about the briefing of judges and the judging method for many months now and have come up with a new judging method for modern jive based on methods used in other forms of dance including ice dance. I think it addresses many of the issues raised in this thread. It's been written with our October 12th Brighton competition in mind but could be used for any modern jive contest. I've attached this method here and would welcome critical feedback to me on andy@britroc.com - please be nice, it's taken me ages!
Ahem .... forgive my curiosity ... but your rules don't appear to be attached?Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I've been thinking about the briefing of judges and the judging method for many months now and have come up with a new judging method for modern jive based on methods used in other forms of dance including ice dance....... I've attached this method here ....
Also, back to ODA mode, going to share with us all the Judges for the competition?
I did try to attach the Judging Method. I noticed the document wasn't attached but as a junior member of the Forum I guessed it must need to be approved by the ODA before appearing on the site. Now that I've read the list of valid file extensions I've reasised that .doc isn't one of them :sorry: I've zipped the Word file, hopefully it will work now.Originally posted by Gus
Ahem .... forgive my curiosity ... but your rules don't appear to be attached?
Also, back to ODA mode, going to share with us all the Judges for the competition?
On the subject of judges we have my new mate Nina (aka Olive Oyl) as the Chief Judge as she is very experienced, a professional dancer, quite scary but nice with it and completely unbribeable, even with chocolate - I know, I've tried, she'll eat as much chocolate as you're prepared to give, but it will make absolutely no difference to her judging - or her waist measurement!
The other judges are Nigel Anderson (girls, you can attempt to influence his judgement - he likes a 'nicely turned ankle' whatever that means), Jackie Robins, Mark Wilson, Clayton Tubbs and two others who have still to finally make their minds up about their availability. Judges are Graham's department, I'll let you know when I do.
One of the things we wanted was a mix of modern jive styles so I particularly wanted Mark and Jackie as they are regular winning competitors and have a completely different style to Nigel and Nina - who are both there because they are good and also the most experienced judges we've got in the UK. And Clayton, well he's a star, obviously. Also, the bonus is that if he's judging he won't be competing - which means that someone else can win for once!
Additionally, we're paying to have Professional Scrutineer called Jane Tomblin from the world of Ice Dance and Ballroom to make sure everything is done properly and turn the raw scores into something meaningful. She is very scary too and has been a great help finalising the judging method.
Ive got a nicely turned ankle, turned it playing football last week - still badly bruised too. Interferes with the dancing y'know.Originally posted by Andy McGregor
The other judges are Nigel Anderson (girls, you can attempt to influence his judgement - he likes a 'nicely turned ankle' whatever that means
Football, is that the game where the ball is round and you can't pick it up and run with it?Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Ive got a nicely turned ankle, turned it playing football last week - still badly bruised too. Interferes with the dancing y'know.
i pick it up and run home with it when my teams getting beat...after all its my ball and ill go home and tell my mum. But hang on, are you being insulting ? i challange you to a dance next time i see you - i know who YOU areOriginally posted by Andy McGregor
Football, is that the game where the ball is round and you can't pick it up and run with it?
A lot of thought has obviously gone into your document, Andy. Thanks for posting it - it's great to find people who are totally open about what they're looking for in terms of judging, and it can only be to the benefit of competitors.
I particularly liked the last sentence in section 1.1 that ended:
like as if there's more than one of him!and to the John Eastman of the Leroc Federation for input into the final version of this 'Method'(scary thought!)
Do you want to be the girl or the boy? I have the equipment and skills for either roleOriginally posted by Dreadful Scathe
i pick it up and run home with it when my teams getting beat...after all its my ball and ill go home and tell my mum. But hang on, are you being insulting ? i challange you to a dance next time i see you - i know who YOU are
I'll have you know this is a very, VERY PC forum, eh, John!!Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Do you want to be the girl or the boy? I have the equipment and skills for either role
We'll have none of that nonsense here, you know.
Would you like DS to be follower or leader!?!!?!?
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