Dance Competitions are Evil

[Gus]

What is the purpose of dance competitions? If it is to prove who is the Greatest in the Land .... well the acknowledged ‘best’ dancers rarely (if ever) compete, so that puts paid to that one. As for the effect on the standard club dancer, I have seen couples who used to be nice dancers destroy their style (and tempers) by exclusively practicing with each other. Given that the stated aim of Modern Jive is to ‘freestyle’, the overuse of choreographed mini-routines seems to go directly against this principle.

Other points to pick at? How about;

• Egos get inflated and more noticeable
  Dancers can win in one tournament, be unplaced in the next
  No one sure about what you need to do to score, let alone win
  Continual questions about whether the judges have the credential to judge
  Endless debate about who should have won
  More focus on outfits and flash moves than the ability to actually DANCE!

Does Modern Jive need competitions? Can you ever analyze such an eclectic dance style into a series of definite scores? Do all this hype and shenanigans make us forget what its all about, dancing for fun, for ourselves and our partner?

So .... I would petition that these competitions runs contrary to everything that has made Modern Jive so accessible ..... so why continue with them?:reallymad

Views voiced above are not neccesarily those of the ODA

[TheTramp]

Yes. Modern jive competitions are evil

Have to say that I can think of only one good reason for having modern jive competitions, and that's cos they do bring people together.

How many people from all over the country would go to Blackpool if C2D were just having a freestyle night? Similarly, how many of the 1300 people at Hammersmith would have come from all over for just another night of dancing.

I've got to the stage where for me, dance competitions are a bit of fun, nothing to take too seriously, and are a chance to meet all my dance friends who come. The last 3 competitions, (Blackpool, Jive Masters, and Ceroc), I've done with 2 different partners, and have had a total of about 8 nights practice (6 for Blackpool, and then one each for the JM, and Ceroc) for all 3. The next competition I'm entering, I only meet my partner for the first time the day before the competition.

I think that the problem I have with jive competitions, is that everyone dances jive in a different way. My style (if you can call it that), comes from mainly hip hop, salsa, and just playing. Viktor now has a lot of salsa in his jive. N&N are more from the swing end. Dan Baines is very hip hop and lindy, Amir has much more of a tango influence. How then can you compare one to the other, and say that one is better. And no matter how hard they try, I don't see how the judges can't help but subconciously favour someone who dances in a style similar to them. It's really almost like trying to compare apples and pears.

Also, since the competitions (and this isn't a criticism) are a lot more amateur than the big ballroom, and latin competitions, Gus' points
No one sure about what you need to do to score, let alone win
Continual questions about whether the judges have the credential to judge
Endless debate about who should have won
are all very valid.

To be honest, I do wish that there wasn't any jive competitions, but do appreciate the fact that they do bring people together, so will continue to attend them, and since I'm going, will enter. But only for fun.

Steve

[Jon]

Totally agree with everything the Tramp said.

There are so many different styles on the floor how can it possibly be judged. Also for those who enter it would be nice to know what the judges are looking for. And after the comp to see your own results so you know which categories you need to work on.

At the end of the day it's abit of entertainment where you can see some really good dancers performing under one roof. If you enter then just do it for fun.

[Mike]

Originally posted by Gus
What is the purpose of dance competitions? If it is to prove who is the Greatest in the Land .... well the acknowledged ?best? dancers rarely (if ever) compete, so that puts paid to that one.

Given that the stated aim of Modern Jive is to ?freestyle?, the overuse of choreographed mini-routines seems to go directly against this principle.

More focus on outfits and flash moves than the ability to actually DANCE!

Did you see either round of the Jive Masters or the Open at the Ceroc Comp? I think you may change your mind if you had. The best dancers in the land were involved & provided us with some of the best freestyle I have every seen which oozed musicality.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Mike
Did you see either round of the Jive Masters or the Open at the Ceroc Comp? I think you may change your mind if you had. The best dancers in the land were involved & provided us with some of the best freestyle I have every seen which oozed musicality.

Urrr;

Mike Allard, Viktor, Lydia, Nigel, Nina, Sue Freeman, Dan Baines, James and Bridget, Amir etc.

Sorry ... but in my books they are the best dancers in the UK .... not sure if they are competing......(IMHO of course )

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Mike
Did you see either round of the Jive Masters or the Open at the Ceroc Comp? I think you may change your mind if you had. The best dancers in the land were involved & provided us with some of the best freestyle I have every seen which oozed musicality.

These were some of the comments I heard after one of the Jive Masters heats:

"There are supposed to be over 500 Ceroc moves, but I saw less than 20 there"

"How can you mark musical interpretation when no-one was interpreting the music"

{my favourite!} "I expected them to have choreographed 3 or 4 routines, and then pick the one that suited the music"

I don't agree with these comments, but they illustrate that people have wildly differing ideas about what they expect, and what they thought of the competitors.

Originally posted by Jon / TheTramp
Judging different styles

The range of different styles is not unique to Modern Jive, but is certainly one of its strengths. It is up to the judges to do 2 things:
- ignore the style and judge the underlying modern jive
- judge the style as part of the musicality.
You should then be able to compare everyone.


I like competitions. I might not like competing any more, but I still like the competitions themselves, and not just because they bring people together. Competitions get dancers to put on a show for their fellow dancers. They get people thinking about how to improve their dancing, or how to present it in a better way. And I can go to a normal freestyle almost every day of the year - competitions make a nice change.

I think complaints about the judging are out of date now. The judging process has improved. You know what they have been told to look for, and how they can award marks. And certainly at Blackpool and London this year, the judges had the dance experience to do their job.

I like the fact that different people win. It is better than the alternative - the same people winning all the time.

Competitions are not perfect. I don't like what you have to do to get your dancing noticed by the judges - ie lots of flashy moves. But the more I think about this, I realise it is very much a personal preference. Maybe modern jive is fundamentally about maximum impact and minimum technique???

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Maybe modern jive is fundamentally about maximum impact and minimum technique???

David

At last ... the Oracle takes on the ODA .... so the fray continues..

hmmmm .... methinks David's statement is more controversial than anything said by the ODA so far ... and maybe reinforces the ODA's inane ramblings .... have Competitions hijacked what Ceroc is about ..... will form replace substance ... will my worst nightmare come true and the 'move monsters' replace the dancers?

Should Modern Jive descend into becoming a spectator sport or is it still mainly a friendly way of jiggling about to the music without having to try too hard?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
have Competitions hijacked what Ceroc is about

No - I think the competitions are helping to define what Modern Jive is about.

Modern Jive is a simplified form of swing dancing. You take away anything that could confuse beginners (eg footwork, how to lead and follow in detail, musical interpretation, etc) and teach the bare minimum that people need to have fun, ie moves. (This is not a complaint - is is why Modern Jive has been so successful!)

People might try to pick up these skills as they gain experience, but they are not a core part of the dance as most people have learned it.

Then you get competitions, which try to say Couple A is better than Couple B. How do you decide?
- on the core ideas of jive - maximum impact & minimum technique (aka as many flash moves as you can)
- quality of individual dancing?
- quality of partner dancing as defined by some other dance style?
- quality of partner dancing as defined by a minority of the better dancers?

I'm starting to think that if you want competitions to be judged on 'musicality' and 'technique', then the teachers/organisations should start teaching it. And not just in the occasional workshop, but as a core part of the dance.

And if the teachers feel that this would alienate a significant number of their dancers, then 'musicality' and 'technique' should not be in the judging criteria.

[Will]

Well first of all, thanks to Gus for starting an interesting thread.

I know that Ceroc were very reticent to start hold competitions initially as they viewed Ceroc as 'Fun' rather than 'competitive'. However, in 1998 they did hold their first champs and the success has been there for all to see. Even now though, they (quite rightly in my opinion) put the emphasis on the Champs of people having fun as the most important thing.

Personally I have to say that I love the Champs for many reasons including a load that DavidB listed. We now have Blackpool to look forward to every year too which is so fantastic. With Bristol also running and Brighton & Ceroc Scotland starting up it seems that competitions are definately on the up as people are voting both with their wallets and their feet.

For me, watching the Open this year was an awesome specticle, particularly with the cream of Australia coming over to do battle with the Brits, (even if they did hammer us! - but hec, I like cricket too)

One small point Gus:- Nigel & Nina did compete at the Champs, albeit in the Team Caberet. Terrific N&N moves in it. - and talking about the cream of the crop, Stevie Wong entered too! (of course he won!)

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Gus
Given that the stated aim of Modern Jive is to freestyle, the overuse of choreographed mini-routines seems to go directly against this principle.

Originally posted by Mike
Did you see either round of the Jive Masters or the Open at the Ceroc Comp? I think you may change your mind if you had. The best dancers in the land were involved & provided us with some of the best freestyle I have every seen which oozed musicality.

I mention no names, but in both heats, there were very definitely some choreographed sequences, especially from people who also perform showcases. Which is not surprising - if you spend ages practicing a sequence so it looks good and you can do it without thinking, why wouldn't you want to use it in freestyle?

Also the judges don't seem to reward musical interpretation enough to make it worth competitors concentrating on that instead of flashy, choreographed moves. I've spoken to several competition winners, and they all say that if you're preparing for a big trick and you realise there's a break coming, you should complete the trick and ignore the break, rather than aborting for something simple that fits the music better.

I'd agree 100% with DavidB that competitions can define the dance. I wasn't at the Ceroc Champs this year, but in previous years it has seemed that what the judges are looking for are speed, sharpness, flash and energy above all else. I think it's no coincidence that I'm seeing the emergence of a "competition Ceroc" dance style which is increasingly far apart from "social dancing".

As an outsider looking at ballroom, there doesn't seem to be any pretence that "competiiton dancing" and "social dancing" are the same thing. I think the same divergence is occuring in Modern Jive - there are a lot more workshops going on than there used to be, and increasingly the competition dancers have a very different approach and even vocabulary to the social dancers.

Now part of Modern Jive's success has been due to its simplicity, certainly. But even more than that, it's that it has made dancing accessible to the masses, in a nice, "safe" environment where people are (hopefully!) friendly and anyone can ask anyone to dance. That anyone can ask anyone, without having to be a fantastic dancer, and without it being seen as a chat-up line, is what makes the Modern Jive scene work, and to me it's the "core" of the dance.

So I'm not sure that I'd agree that "maximum impact" is what Modern Jive is about for most people. Flashy moves are a "hook" that interests people (particularly the men, I suspect), but I wouldn't say they are the "core".

Now how this new emerging dance (call it "Competition Jive") is going to co-exist with Modern Jive is an interesting question. I think increasingly people are going to see them as related but separate - a bit like Lindy and Modern Jive are now. Already most Ceroc competitors don't actually go to Ceroc classes (unless they teach/taxi at them!). The hard part is going to be transitioning from Ceroc to Competition Jive - when often people don't even know there are places to learn outside of Ceroc.

Of course, I keep hearing rumblings that Ceroc is going to start teaching advanced classes...

Dave

[Deb]

Just a quickie because I am about to start teaching....

My initial reaction to the competition vs social dancing question is to say that one type of dancing involves performance and the other doesn't. My background is in dance performance but love social dancing more than anything. It is a completely different feeling as a dancer to perform as it is to get out on the dancefloor for a social dance. I don't think that we should expect them to be the same.

I have a few more thoughts on the topic but I have to run...

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Gus
What is the purpose of dance competitions? [/i]

My tuppence worth! I have only been to one competition (Mussleburgh) so no expert obviously but I do think it was amazing to watch all those talented people from all over Scotland and even some from south of the border.

One thing I have heard said quite a few times is that the competitors have not been happy with their performance at the competition mainly due to nerves. I think the big parties, like the Aberdeen beach, are a better way of meeting lots of other dancers from the different areas and is totally stress free.

However, I guess if you have put a lot of effort into a cabaret performance or dual/individual performance it must be such a thrill to be rewarded for it.

I'm not against competition but the attraction to Ceroc was the fact that it was for fun first and foremost. I guess the choice is there for those who want to compete and those who don't can watch or just party.

Sandy

[Mike]

Originally posted by Gus
Urrr;

Mike Allard, Viktor, Lydia, Nigel, Nina, Sue Freeman, Dan Baines, James and Bridget, Amir etc.

Sorry ... but in my books they are the best dancers in the UK .... not sure if they are competing......(IMHO of course )

No need to be sorry, it is a very good choice for a list of favorites.

A more accurate list of the best dancers would also include, Dave & Lilly, C&J, Ben Borrego, Simon Selmon, Nicky Haslem, Roy Agaspa-Power, Deb Woodyard & others. These dancers are also at the top, each bringing unique gifts in the Modern Jive world.

FYI - Dan Banes has competed a number of times & didn’t win, at least at the competitions I attended.
Amir competed with Lilly in the recent Ceroc Open

Mike

[TheTramp]

Sorry. Since you're talking about the best dancers, the least you could do is get their names right.

Mike Ellard
Lily Barker (one 'L')
Roy Asagba-Power

Steve

[TheTramp]

And to throw in some names that I feel have every right to be up there with the others. Would hate to miss any out...

James Geary
Deb Cantoni (& Ben)
Dan Slape
Marilene Metzler
Emma Pettitt

Steve

[Mike]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Sorry. Since you're talking about the best dancers, the least you could do is get their names right.

Mike Ellard
Lily Barker (one 'L')
Roy Asagba-Power

Steve

Steve, I am sorry I missed you off my list. You definitely deserve to be there. I thought your dancing with Deb was simply amazing at the Jive Masters.

My list was not meant to be an extensive list of the “best dancers” but rather to say that the previous list was closer to a list of favorites & not a reasonable list of the best dancers.

I will watch my spelling in the future.

Mike

[Mike]

Originally posted by DavidB
No - I think the competitions are helping to define what Modern Jive is about.

Modern Jive is a simplified form of swing dancing. You take away anything that could confuse beginners (eg footwork, how to lead and follow in detail, musical interpretation, etc) and teach the bare minimum that people need to have fun, ie moves. (This is not a complaint - is is why Modern Jive has been so successful!)

I'm starting to think that if you want competitions to be judged on 'musicality' and 'technique', then the teachers/organisations should start teaching it. And not just in the occasional workshop, but as a core part of the dance.

And if the teachers feel that this would alienate a significant number of their dancers, then 'musicality' and 'technique' should not be in the judging criteria.

If musicality & technique are the only thing that Modern Jive was judged on why not just call it swing!

At the risk of being shot down again, the recent Ceroc Open & Jive Masters was probably the best "mix" of dancing I have seen. The dancers did spend a majority of the time interpreting the music but also including some wonderful moves.

Mike

[Gus]

Originally posted by Mike

FYI - Dan Banes has competed a number of times & didn’t win, at least at the competitions I attended.
Amir competed with Lilly in the recent Ceroc Open

Mike

First point, my comments were a direct response to the assertion that ALL the BEST dancers were competing at the Jive Masters ... sorry but with the greatest of respect to the current competitors ... I think there are many missing.

Second, having seen Dan's performnaces and seen him fail to get placed adds even more weight to the argumnet. Dan is one of the finest proponents of nu-Ceroc I've seen ... challenging the boundaries and with a dance perdigree that very few in the field of Modern Jive can compare to. The fact that he doesn't get placed raises serious questions about judging criteria!

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Sandy
One thing I have heard said quite a few times is that the competitors have not been happy with their performance at the competition mainly due to nerves.

One of my saddest experiences was watching a young lady being overwrought with nerves for the first half of the championship waiting for her round, then distraught for the second half of it because she fell over.

[Will]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Sorry. Since you're talking about the best dancers, the least you could do is get their names right.


Lily Barker (one 'L')

Steve

Sorry to be pedantic but I count 2 L's in the name "Lily"

To answer another point raised. If you only held competitions if all the best dancers entered you never have any comps at all.

I seem to remember that when Torvill & Dean went professional (which disqualified them from competition) they didn't bin Olympic Ice dancing - and quite right too.

I just hope that in 50 years time, when Ceroc is an Olympic sport and the annual champs are covered by the BBC and SKY, they show frequent clips on the telly of people dancing 50 years ago and make us all famous!!!