(men) multiple spinning and spotting

[Lee Bartholomew]

How many above two or at the most three would you really want?

I can think of two occasions when multiple spins are called for...

1. To fill to the end of the bar or to a break.
2. A double spin in double time looks extra flashy where a single spin would fit.

On the second point, unless you can do 3 or more spins in a single beat, then it won't work, and more to the point, it would serve little purpose beyond making you dizzy.

On the first point, how many beats are you willing to spend making your partner look like a lemon just to hit the break? I'd say two is a limit. If I'm leading and put you into a spin 3 beats before a break, chances are I've got something else planned for the next two beats myself.

I suppose if you're really good you'll be able to do maybe 6 spins in those 2 beats, but, still, why??

Are there other times when multiple (unassisted) spins are called for that I'm missing?

All depends on the song, if your partner is double spinning as well or if you carry the spins over a whole bar.

Want to do some filming soon. Will try to get some multi spins on cam.

[MartinHarper]

The only thing that I wonder is *why* I'd want to do a huge number of multiple spins.

I think it's mostly a learning thing. If you can manage to do five consecutive spins in practice conditions, you can probably do a neat and tidy double spin in freestyle conditions, when your partner pulls you off balance, the floor is uneven, the music is fast, and you've had a pint or two. Some leaders do lead double free spins, and it's good to be able to honour that lead without falling over. Also, there are several common MJ moves with free 1.5 spins.

Having said that, for male follows, I agree that most of us probably shouldn't be planning on multiple unled free spins. Given that a male follow weakness is anticipation/backleading, I don't think it makes much sense for us to practice a form of sabotage for following purposes. Still, it's a handy trick to have as a leader.

----

Re spotting, I went to review the Kevin+Carla Barswingona movie, to see how much Kevin spotted in his free spins. Results:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...33447881861652
0:58 - triple spin, spotting.
2:00 - 3.5 spin, no spotting
2:20 - double spin, no spotting
Carla did several "assisted" free spins and didn't spot in any of them that I saw.

[Andy McGregor]

It can be adapted to how ever many you want. Would say start with a double and see where you go.

I don't think it is worth spotting, esp when you are doing multi-spins. As I said in the post, works for a few but not for most.

Was poss the same neg-repper, would be interested to hear his / her comments and advice, though doubt that would happen!!!!!

I was the one who neg-repped woodface for his advice about spinning. I did not give the neg-rep for complaining about receiving neg-rep. However, you will always get more neg-rep for complaining about it. Accept it and move on is what I say.

On the subject of my original neg-rep for the advice about spinning. The advice woodface gave was this;

"Don't try and spot. Works for some, not for most."

This is completely wrong. But it's given with such conviction it sounds like it's the only way to go. Was woodface given this advice by a professionally trained dancer? I don't think so. Every professionally trained dancer that I've had a spinning lesson from has talked about the importance of spotting. Of course you can get away with not spotting, but it's not best practice. The advice/training I've received is that the best practice is to spot - this isn't just for reasons of balance, it's also to do with the relationship with your partner during the dance.

[Genie]

I would say "try to spot" and if you fall over "practice or leave it, your choice".

I spot, but I have some classical training, so I don't actually think about it.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Should you spot?

My pointers on spinning were just that, pointers.

I don't spot. Loads of other multi spinners don't spot.

OK. If I do 6-7 spins in a bar or breakdown. Is it really accetpet that I would be able to whip my head around in that short a time? I would seroiusly damage my neck. Also Spotting throws me off balance.

Every teacher I know (with the exception of 1) and this includes a local well respected ballett teacher, would say spotting is up to you.

Yes sometimes it does look better when a follow or lead spot. Othertimes it throws it all out completely.

OK next argument. Why would you want to do multi spins?

Because done right and in time it looks good. I get alot of pos comments on my spinning ability athought sometimes it does go wrong !.

what does the woman do during this time? What ever she wants. My regular dance partners spin aswell. One spins aswell as me, others will just spin alittle slower.

Boredom. To show off. Because I get challenged to do x amount. Etc Etc

[MartinHarper]

Every professionally trained dancer that I've had a spinning lesson from...

Out of interest, besides Nina, who else have you taken spinning lessons from? I did like Nina's class, so it'd be good to know who else gives spinning lessons.

[Andy McGregor]

Should you spot?

My pointers on spinning were just that, pointers.

I don't spot. Loads of other multi spinners don't spot.

Then maybe the original advice should have been qualified rather than sounding like it was the only way to go.

One of the good things about MJ is that you can do it many ways. When I'm teaching I often give people more than one option. I might say something like "I teach it this way but other people might teach it like this" often I will give an example of the other way of doing a move, but I won't teach it that way. I qualify it by saying that it doesn't make the other teacher wrong, just different - although I might wink at this point

On the subject of multiple spins. There is a structure to dance that is provided by the music. In general the structure of the music gives you 2 musical beats to complete your spinning. There might be places in the music that allow you to do your spins over more beats than that - possibly a phrase of 2 bars/eight beats. IMHO that is the longest you should separate from your partner unless you've got some choreographed moves that you've worked out or been taught.

[Andy McGregor]

Out of interest, besides Nina, who else have you taken spinning lessons from? I did like Nina's class, so it'd be good to know who else gives spinning lessons.

As part of other lessons I've also been taught to spin by a lady called Doris Myers who was my ballroom teacher in the early '80. More recently, as part of workshops, I've had spinning lessons from Amir and Kate. Amir is particularly specific about how you use your head to emphasise the structure of the music. There have probably been others, but when you've done as many workshops as I have they become a bit of a blur, you have trouble remembering who taught you what However, as far as I can remember, I've been given tips on spotting by every person who has taught me spinning - you would think I'd be a better spinner but I find I have off days where I wobble on single spins and other days where I'm spot on

When I teach spinning myself in the normal class lessons I tell beginners not to try to spot unless they can do it already. I tell them the most important thing is to keep their head up and not look at the floor. When I teach spinning on workshops I always do a session on posture and spotting - I tell people that good posture is essential for good spins, but I tell them it's not essential for the lady to spot to do the spins on balance. However, I think that it is essential for the leader to spot when doing multiple spins. They really do need to keep track of where their partner is and spotting achieves this objective.

[Wouldbe]

I think this spinning needs to take on a thread all of it own! It's kind of gone off the beat and track regards the original topic of male followers.

I never knew spinning, spotting or otherwise, was so contentious! I think I'll stick to 1 at a time!

[Lee Bartholomew]

Then maybe the original advice should have been qualified rather than sounding like it was the only way to go.

One of the good things about MJ is that you can do it many ways. When I'm teaching I often give people more than one option. I might say something like "I teach it this way but other people might teach it like this" often I will give an example of the other way of doing a move, but I won't teach it that way. I qualify it by saying that it doesn't make the other teacher wrong, just different - although I might wink at this point

On the subject of multiple spins. There is a structure to dance that is provided by the music. In general the structure of the music gives you 2 musical beats to complete your spinning. There might be places in the music that allow you to do your spins over more beats than that - possibly a phrase of 2 bars/eight beats. IMHO that is the longest you should separate from your partner unless you've got some choreographed moves that you've worked out or been taught.

When I teach I teach it with the pointers I have given in this post. People im my classes have followed and learnt using my techniques. If they work then I feel they are qualified and are not 'Bad advise'!!!!!!

With regards to who taught me the list includes sara Johnson, Adam Maple (one of the best male spinners I know),and Shirley Parsons (ballet)

[ducasi]

I think this spinning needs to take on a thread all of it own! It's kind of gone off the beat and track regards the original topic of male followers.

I've just moved all the spinning posts to a thread of their own.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I was the one who neg-repped woodface for his advice about spinning. I did not give the neg-rep for complaining about receiving neg-rep. However, you will always get more neg-rep for complaining about it. Accept it and move on is what I say.

On the subject of my original neg-rep for the advice about spinning. The advice woodface gave was this;

"Don't try and spot. Works for some, not for most."

This is completely wrong. But it's given with such conviction it sounds like it's the only way to go. Was woodface given this advice by a professionally trained dancer? I don't think so. Every professionally trained dancer that I've had a spinning lesson from has talked about the importance of spotting. Of course you can get away with not spotting, but it's not best practice. The advice/training I've received is that the best practice is to spot - this isn't just for reasons of balance, it's also to do with the relationship with your partner during the dance.

All teachers teach different.

"Don't try and spot. Works for some, not for most." was my comment. I stick to it. It is good advise. If you don't agree you don't agree. Each to their own. I do state it works for some not for others. People on this forum are cleaver enough to read that as 'sometimes spotting works' im sure!!!!!!!

Yes I was given that advise by several profesionally trained teachers. Maybe spotting is an 'old fashioned' way of doing things!!

Almost no teacher teaches it this way anymore.

Any other teacher out there want to comment?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Welcome to the woodface forum. Been here a few weeks, tells us how to dance, especially how to spin, and is now accusing his shoes, very similar to some shoes I own, of being gay.

The sexuality of dance shoes is their business. I wear them, I put them in the bottom of my wardrobe with the other dance shoes. What they get up to in the dark is their business. Do they go for the stillettoes or do they snuggle up the b&w shoes? One thing I can tell you is that my dance trainers go either way

If you need to ask a question, the question you should ask yourself is "do I look gay in these?" Although why you'd want to know is beyond me

No just thinks that im wrong with my spinning advise. Didn't like it because it's not the way 'he teaches'.

[Andy McGregor]

Adam Maple

Professionally trained?

Almost no teacher teaches it this way anymore.

I can't believe this.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Advise from the rocsters website on spinning

How to Get Less Dizzy
The body will eventually adapt to anything it is repeatedly exposed to. So if you spin lots, you will get used to it and experience less dizziness. Also, try not to tilt your head to either side whilst spinning. When you have completed your last turn, focus your eyes on one object, probably your partner, (do not let them just blur) and at least you will get your bearings quicker. Trained dancers use a technique called spotting. You let your body start to turn without your head moving, whilst focusing on a single spot. When you can no longer keep your head in the same place, you turn it around as fast as you can to refocus on the same spot. It takes practice, but eventually helps you avoid getting dizzy and can even help you turn more.


When you have completed your last turn, focus your eyes on one object, probably your partner, (do not let them just blur) Agreed this is what I do after my Xth spin.

Trained dancers use a technique called spotting. You let your body start to turn without your head moving, whilst focusing on a single spot. When you can no longer keep your head in the same place, you turn it around as fast as you can to refocus on the same spot. Im a trainned dancer I don't use that technique. Try whipping your head around on your fourth spin without doing you neck in !!!!!!!!!!!

but eventually helps you avoid getting dizzy and can even help you turn more. Spotting makes me and many others even more dizzy as you are turning your head quicker. Help you turn more?????? B*****CKS If anything, it impaires your ability to multi spin.



Sorry Andy but I just don't agree. Won't neg rep you for 'Bad Advise' though. lol

[Andy McGregor]

No just thinks that im wrong with my spinning advise. Didn't like it because it's not the way 'he teaches'.

I teach that you can spin the way woodface teaches. But I also teach that you should spot if you can. Woodface is less liberal and says his way is the only way. Maybe he's like that with his shoes.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I teach that you can spin the way woodface teaches. But I also teach that you should spot if you can. Woodface is less liberal and says his way is the only way. Maybe he's like that with his shoes.

God has it really come to this??????

Andy, please go back and read my posts on spinning properly!!!!!

[Andy McGregor]

Sorry Andy but I just don't agree. Won't neg rep you for 'Bad Advise' though. lol
[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Woodface is saying the advice on my website is bad, he's just not going to neg-rep me, just try to harm my reputation by saying I'm wrong. But this time it's not me, I got this advice from Amir Giles, professional dancer, trained by the Ballet Rombert and all-round fabulous dancer - go here for the source of the advice. In the opinion of many people Amir is the top dancer and teacher in Modern Jive. To say that Amir is wrong is a very courageous thing to do.

Of course woodface could be the one to topple Amir from the top spot. I'm sure I'm joined by many others who'd like to have a dance with woodface if this is the case.

[David Franklin]

Woodface is saying the advice on my website is bad, he's just not going to neg-rep me, just try to harm my reputation by saying I'm wrong.

[pedantry]

Actually, I think Woodface was trying to make the point that he's being criticised for giving advice as if it were absolute, when your website (and Amir) is doing exactly the same thing. He's commenting that what you advice doesn't work for him but that he understands that doesn't mean it's bad advice.

[/pedantry]

As far as spotting goes, you will actually find quite a few professionals who say "if you're doing very fast spins, you can't really spot". The canonical example is in ice-skating, where you will find lots and lots of advice saying not to spot on fast spins.

However, for social dance, knowing where you and your partner are, is really important, and so for that reason, if no other, I think spotting is a good plan, even though I don't really manage it well myself.

I'd also say that genuinely being able to do 7 controlled spins (without paddling etc) is phenomenal - probably more than Amir can do, certainly more than I've ever seen any other man do. The ironic thing is that this doesn't actually put yourself in any stronger position when it comes to advising others. There's been some scientific analysis, and the conclusion was that the best spinners are just really really good at correcting their balance during the spin. (Basically they did things like push people off balance as they were spinning and see what happened). What works for them may well not work for the rest of us.

Of course woodface could be the one to topple Amir from the top spot. I'm sure I'm joined by many others who'd like to have a dance with woodface if this is the case.

Certainly at this point I'd be fascinated to see him dance. How long is it to Blackpool...?

[Andy McGregor]

David Franklin is completely right (so I'm not going to quote the whole of his post) and I agree with everything he says - except one thing. I don't think that woodface is criticising me or Amir for being absolute. He's saying that we're old fashioned and wrong for advising people to spot.

I can't speak for Amir, but for myself, I think that the reason spotting is best practice in a partner dance is just that. You have a partner, you need to know where he/she is and spotting is a brilliant way to achieve that objective.

Certainly at this point I'd be fascinated to see him dance. How long is it to Blackpool...?

I can't wait that long. Woodface is a dancing phenomenon. We need to know his dancing timetable so we can see these multiple spins.