View Poll Results: Death penalty?

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Thread: Death penalty

  1. #41
    Registered User FirstMove's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty

    There is a famous legal adage that if you kill one person, you'll hang. But if you kill ten you're insane.

    All of the people mentioned in this thread are candidates (maybe not Saddam as he's not British) for a long stay in Broadmoor. I image that secure accommodation for mental patients is even more expensive than for normal prisoners.

  2. #42
    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    er...the murders may not have morals but surely WE do? You are suggesting we forget our morals because someone else doesn't have any? Or we could, as you suggest, forget our moral standards only when its convenient.
    Im not sure where you got the idea that I would drop my moral standard.

    You seem to be classifying everyone as having the same 'morals'. In my previous post I was referring to Caro's point about judging someone by 'her' moral standard.

    I am suggesting the death penalty from my moral standpoint. A standpoint which suggests that a proven multiple murderer does not deserve a third chance.

    (I will always support a second chance BTW)

  3. #43
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    Once again you are applying a moral stance as judgement to people who have no morals i.e. murderers
    exactly, and that's where I differ from them. How can you kill somebody when you condemn the killing of a human being in the first place?
    I really cannot explain it better than that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    Just out of interest how would you deal with a man who had been locked away for the abduction and murder of a young child, subsequently released only to rob another family of their son?
    life in prison. Obviously the more emotional your example get (i.e. what if it was my son, etc), the more difficult it is to stick to my morale, that's why I said earlier that sometimes living in accordance to your principles is sometimes the difficult option. But I maintain it and if such a horrible thing should happen to me, I hope I'll have the strength of character to stick to my ethics. Otherwise, well, they'll win...

  4. #44
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    Im not sure where you got the idea that I would drop my moral standard.
    I was saying that if its morally wrong to kill, then by killing the murderer we are dropping our moral standards by doing so. If you think its morally correct to kill people then I apologise and retract the statement. (and Im not being sarcastic, many people DO think this judging by the poll)

    You seem to be classifying everyone as having the same 'morals'. In my previous post I was referring to Caro's point about judging someone by 'her' moral standard.
    I just assumed most people morally agreed with a 'no killing' standard. This is about one specific moral which, in my experience, most people do indeed share. Agreeing to the death penalty means that at some point, a perfectly innocent person will be killed - no system of justice was ever anywhere near 100% perfect.

    I am suggesting the death penalty from my moral standpoint. A standpoint which suggests that a proven multiple murderer does not deserve a third chance.
    Well, it does seem to be clear that you think killing people is morally sound. You can say "only under certain circumstances" all you like, that simply means you drop your morals when convenient - there is no grey area in "no killing" - you do or you don't.

  5. #45
    Groovemeister
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    Re: Death penalty

    Never it's as simple as that for me.

  6. #46
    Registered User Shodan's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    The death penalty is proven not to be a deterrent - look at the USA for examples of this. The USA has executed over 1,000 people in the past 30 years, and I don't see it being held up as a shiny paragon of lawfulness anywhere - for example, 4.2 murder rates per 100,000, compared to 1.4 here.

    And the reason it's not a deterrent, is that crims don't expect to get caught. They don't care what the penalty is - they don't expect to have to pay it.
    You can't compare us to the USA justice system. This is cos you are right - in the states you can virtually get away with anything as their justice system is beyond a joke.

    Say for example in the USA, I burgle your house and wreck everything there and also "allegedly" kidnap one of your daughters. It goes to court, my lawyer gets me off, but then I turn around and sue you because I injured myself tripping over the loose carpet on your stairs as I was fleeing from you and your 12 bore shotgun. In the USA, my sueing of you for injuries would probably stick!

    But to agree with you, yes all the serious punishments currently wouldn't put anyone off as all the criminals know they can get themselves off on it. For serious punishments to work, you'd also need a change in the justice system to get rid of all this "nannying" and to stop things like burglars suing a house owner for injuries caused etc etc. I mean in the States they sue each other for anything and everything.

  7. #47
    Registered User Shodan's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper View Post
    The death penalty isn't free. I don't think there are any working gallows in the UK, or trained hangmen. I guess we could ship our multiple murderers to the US and get them killed over there, then ship what's left back to the families of the deceased? It'd all need to be done under heavy security, of course. Maybe you could recoup some of the costs by selling off their organs prior to execution?
    Gallows? Hangmen??? Thats rather barbaric.

    I know I'm very pro "killing the crims" as stated in my posts above, but I do have a heart. A nice injection into the criminals arm will give a more humane approach to having to take the life of a criminal. A bit like putting a dog down after its been a very naughty dog (e.g. mamed someone etc) / is an ill dog.

    Also, with the death penalty, I don't think it should be made a public event or televised etc. Why should these crims get any more of our attention than they deserve?

  8. #48
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
    You can't compare us to the USA justice system. This is cos you are right - in the states you can virtually get away with anything as their justice system is beyond a joke.
    I think you're exaggerating here, based on stereotypes and high-profile cases.

    Generally, I believe US law and culture is reasonably similar to our own, at least similar enough to make comparisons reasonably valid. It's based on the presumption of innocence, on the adversarial system, on the jury system, and so on. Which is unsurprising considering it was based on our system in the first place.

    In fact, I believe the US justice and police systems are in many ways superior to our own - but they still have a lot of crime, despite that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
    But to agree with you, yes all the serious punishments currently wouldn't put anyone off as all the criminals know they can get themselves off on it. For serious punishments to work, you'd also need a change in the justice system to get rid of all this "nannying" and to stop things like burglars suing a house owner for injuries caused etc etc. I mean in the States they sue each other for anything and everything.
    Well, let's just hang them all then, and let God sort it out.

    Re: Huntley and 7/7 bombers:
    Quote Originally Posted by Juju View Post
    Why those exceptions?
    Because they're not serial killers. So that fails on one criterion.

    Oh, and:
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Actually, I mainly wanted to test the statement someone made that we could discuss anything here without rancour
    I may have been a little optimistic on that front

  9. #49
    Registered User Shodan's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Well, let's just hang them all then, and let God sort it out.
    "Well thats the spirit soldier!" (Note: Sarcasm)

  10. #50
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
    I know I'm very pro "killing the crims" as stated in my posts above, but I do have a heart. A nice injection into the criminals arm will give a more humane approach to having to take the life of a criminal. A bit like putting a dog down after its been a very naughty dog (e.g. mamed someone etc) / is an ill dog.
    Brilliant! You claim to be humane but want to criminals to be "put down like dogs". Nice

    There have been calls to look at the lethal injection in the US because it is claimed the conconction is liable to introduce total muscle paralysis but excrutiating pain as well - like being burnt from the inside and not even being able to move in the slightest. Is that a "nice injection" ? Give me the hangmans noose anyday

  11. #51
    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    I just assumed most people morally agreed with a 'no killing' standard. This is about one specific moral which, in my experience, most people do indeed share. Agreeing to the death penalty means that at some point, a perfectly innocent person will be killed - no system of justice was ever anywhere near 100% perfect.
    Totally agree with the 100% thing. Thats why I uphold the idea that this would only be in extreme cases where proof is solid and the offender has commited the act numerous times. I dont know stats but I cant think of a case where the wrong person has been condemned to a life sentence, and not acquited (not sure how you spell that), on more than 1 occasion. Im not saying it couldnt happen though.

    On the point of having this "no killing" standpoint - I rarely see any decisions in life as a simple yes or no answer. I believe that opinions (aka morals) are not set in concrete and can change. After all, the definition for a 'moral' is the distinction between right and wrong. People adapt their views on what is right or wrong. Applying a 'blanket stance' is very tunnel visioned IMO.

    *my word. im not usually this opinionated!*

  12. #52
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    On the point of having this "no killing" standpoint - I rarely see any decisions in life as a simple yes or no answer. I believe that opinions (aka morals) are not set in concrete and can change. After all, the definition for a 'moral' is the distinction between right and wrong. People adapt their views on what is right or wrong. Applying a 'blanket stance' is very tunnel visioned IMO. [/SIZE]
    No "H"?

    Death is pretty final. I needs a simple yes or no answer. Punishment and views on it can be adapted. Going from "Thou shalt not kill" to let's kill someone is not an adaptation it's a complete change of heart.

  13. #53
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    No "H"?

    Death is pretty final. I needs a simple yes or no answer. Punishment and views on it can be adapted. Going from "Thou shalt not kill" to let's kill someone is not an adaptation it's a complete change of heart.
    I disagree - it's not that simple.

    States kill people everyday. The obvious example is when they go to war, but every major decision has impact on some people. Health resourcing decisions from NICE can prolong or shorten lives, for example, as do decisions on "baby euthanasia" issues.

    There are many valid reasons for opposing the death penalty - it's no deterrent, it could go wrong, it's a populist measure, it sends out the wrong signals, and so on. But adopting an absolutist "Because it's just wrong, OK?" position is not, IMHO, one of them.

  14. #54
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    . But adopting an absolutist "Because it's just wrong, OK?" position is not, IMHO, one of them.
    Well IMSO, it IS. SO there What is wrong with an absolutist opinion when it i a simple question of killing people on purpose or not? I am quite positive that our society should be absolutist about adults punching babies squarely in the face, because, well, its just wrong. But then maybe under certain circumstances they deserve the punch? do they? ever?

    Depending on how you word the question you could get a lot of the general public to agree to the death penalty.

    e.g. Do you think the death penalty should be an option courts have for mass-murderers of children?

    but, would you get the same response if you used the less emotive...

    Do you think the state should occasionally have people killed?

    .....theres no difference though

  15. #55
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
    Thats why I uphold the idea that this would only be in extreme cases where proof is solid and the offender has commited the act numerous times.
    Angela Cannings, formerly convicted of double murder, was cleared on appeal after spending 18 months in prison.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...re/3306271.stm

    Sally Clark, formerly convicted of double murder, was cleared on appeal after spending 3 years in prison
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2706489.stm

  16. #56
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Well IMSO, it IS. SO there What is wrong with an absolutist opinion when it i a simple question of killing people on purpose or not?
    Because it reduces the debate to "It's wrong!", "No it's not", "Yes it is", "No it's not, and you smell too" levels.

    And I notice you cunningly avoided commenting on my other examples of state-sponsored killing...

  17. #57
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Because it reduces the debate to "It's wrong!", "No it's not", "Yes it is", "No it's not, and you smell too" levels.
    Should there be much of a debate on whether killing people is bad or not? It seems to me everyone agrees killing people is bad, they just sometimes add a "but if", and if you have to do that then you're(1) fooling yourself and (2) looking for certain criteria that you think will "slip through" but still leave you morally sound. Which it doesnt - you'll burn in hell

    And I notice you cunningly avoided commenting on my other examples of state-sponsored killing...
    Ignored more like*. None of your examples is about killing people on purpose. People die all the time, strangely enough, but the state does not kill them on purpose. Yes, soliders may die but they know they have a dangerous job - as do many other professions. The health service fails people all the time due to medical mistakes, perhaps withholding of drugs that would keep them alive, and even admin errors....but "on purpose" ? no, it takes the Harold Shipmans to do that. Yet again I find your post to be akin to the pitiful wailing of a small fluffy kitten about to be given worming tablets.




    * accuse me of being cunning again and ill tell my mum

  18. #58
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    It seems to me everyone agrees killing people is bad, they just sometimes add a "but if", and if you have to do that then you're(1) fooling yourself and (2) looking for certain criteria that you think will "slip through" but still leave you morally sound. Which it doesnt - you'll burn in hell
    I don't agree that killing people is always bad. So hopefully I'm not going to heck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Ignored more like*. None of your examples is about killing people on purpose. People die all the time, strangely enough, but the state does not kill them on purpose. Yes, soliders may die but they know they have a dangerous job - as do many other professions. The health service fails people all the time due to medical mistakes, perhaps withholding of drugs that would keep them alive, and even admin errors....but "on purpose" ? no, it takes the Harold Shipmans to do that.
    The only differentiation you're making is between retail and wholesale.

    Killing one specific person on purpose, by that measure, is by this measure better than taking a decision which you know will result in thousands of deaths - but it's OK to do that, because you don't know who those thousands of people are? That's the argument? That it's morally better to drop a nuke on a city than it is to execute a mass murderer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    Yet again I find your post to be akin to the pitiful wailing of a small fluffy kitten about to be given worming tablets.
    Excellent, thanks for the sig

  19. #59
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe View Post
    It seems to me everyone agrees killing people is bad, they just sometimes add a "but if"
    Despite my comments above, I believe killing PEOPLE is a bad idea. BUT, if someone has been clearly convicted of multi murders or something VERY serious, then I personally don't see these as being people like you and I. They are obviously twisted to want to commit murder or whatever and thus in my eyes I see them as forfeiting their rights for us to be nice or whatever to them. Thus I have no qualms in having these "people" dispoed of via the death penalty.

  20. #60
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Death penalty

    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
    BUT, if someone has been clearly convicted of multi murders or something VERY serious, then I personally don't see these as being people like you and I. They are obviously twisted to want to commit murder or whatever and thus in my eyes I see them as forfeiting their rights for us to be nice or whatever to them. Thus I have no qualms in having these "people" dispoed of via the death penalty.
    Hmmm, it's comments like this which make me rethink my position. It's like trying to be a rational Eurosceptic; you keep finding yourself associated with Teddy Taylor and his striped blazers...

    OK, I've changed my mind, I'm now Mr Practical.

    Imposing a death penalty, whilst occasionally justifiable on some grounds, sends out too many messages in terms of our cultural (lack of) value for life in general, which serve as bad examples both to our own citizens, and to other governments.

    For example, we can't take the moral high ground with organised killing regimes such as China, if we're engaged in the same practice - no matter how rarely - ourselves. And other regimes do use the death penalty to curb dissent.

    So whilst there may be some arguments about morality, it's not worth evaluating the death penalty, simply because it's not practical to do so.

    I feel much better now

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