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Thread: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

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    An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    I've posted this on the Ceroc(tm) - UK Domination thread. But I think it could do with its own thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor on Domination thread
    I've just had a thought about 'independents'. Ceroc are independent too. They're just a very big one! Any organisation of 'independent' MJ organisers would, IMHO, fail if all all they were set up to do was defend against the biggest independent of them all. Of course, an organisation with many members would be better placed to defend against sharp practices from any source. But they would also need to be about more if they were to become a true dance organisation. Off the top of my head they'd also need to offer some of the following;

    Teacher training
    Teacher accreditation
    A promise to customers of certain standards (kite marking for want of a better description)
    Insurance
    Advice on PPL, PRS and MCPS
    Legal advice
    A pool of experience
    Fabulous parties at their annual conference

    Any other ideas?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    What would be the difference between this and the current LeRoc federation?

    Seems a bit redundant to propose setting up another federation doing the same sort of thing...

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    What would be the difference between this and the current LeRoc federation?

    Seems a bit redundant to propose setting up another federation doing the same sort of thing...
    Putting aside the whole going back on the left thing for a moment, the LeRoc Federation seems to be bogged down in ancient politics. Some of it seems to be about who originated Modern Jive but some of it is intelligible to anyone who's not part of the Federation - in other words, I don't understand it and don't feel the need to devote any of my time to things that are irrelevant.

    The other thing is that the LeRoc Federation has been running for years and isn't really representing Modern Jive organisations. I've no real idea why, but it just isn't working and doesn't sound like an attractive proposition to me as an independent organiser.

    Besides, if they were throwing fabulous parties we'd have been invited. Wouldn't we...

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Putting aside the whole going back on the left thing for a moment, the LeRoc Federation seems to be bogged down in ancient politics.
    And I suspect that not long after starting a new organisation there would be a strong liklihood it would get bogged down in new politics.

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    And I suspect that not long after starting a new organisation there would be a strong liklihood it would get bogged down in new politics.
    That's always a problem with any organisation, and not just in jive. Look at religion if you want to find ancient grudges

    I think that democracy goes a long way to making an organisation forward looking - thinking about it, maybe some religions should try it

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Putting aside the whole going back on the left thing for a moment, the LeRoc Federation seems to be bogged down in ancient politics. Some of it seems to be about who originated Modern Jive but some of it is intelligible to anyone who's not part of the Federation - in other words, I don't understand it and don't feel the need to devote any of my time to things that are irrelevant.
    The site seems fairly straightforward to me - and much better than most franchisee sites or Ceroc.com.

    Training - tick.
    Event map / list - tick.
    Dance Diary - tick.

    What more do you want exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    The other thing is that the LeRoc Federation has been running for years and isn't really representing Modern Jive organisations. I've no real idea why, but it just isn't working and doesn't sound like an attractive proposition to me as an independent organiser.
    Well, I notice that the "Jive Nxxxxn" site is a Leroc member - displays the logo proudly on the front page. So Simon clearly doesn't think it's worthless.

    But what it sounds like you want is "A better leroc organisation", and it sounds like it'll be easier to improve the current one than set up a new one, or am I missing something? Otherwise, you'll just get a "People's Front Of Judea" situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    Besides, if they were throwing fabulous parties we'd have been invited. Wouldn't we...
    Dunno, I never get invited anywhere.

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    That's always a problem with any organisation, and not just in jive. Look at religion if you want to find ancient grudges

    I think that democracy goes a long way to making an organisation forward looking - thinking about it, maybe some religions should try it
    I think you should run for Pope. Can I manage your campaign?

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo View Post
    I think you should run for Pope. Can I manage your campaign?
    Sorry, but I think Barry has earned that position on the team. Maybe you could be one of the Papal Diplomats?

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    But what it sounds like you want is "A better leroc organisation", and it sounds like it'll be easier to improve the current one than set up a new one, or am I missing something? Otherwise, you'll just get a "People's Front Of Judea" situation.
    How do you think I know something about the LeRoc Fed? I looked into joining. I spoke with John Eastman, even met him. If the rest of the LeRoc Fed were like John I'd have no hesitation in joining. And it probably wouldn't need much improving if they all thought like John.

    However, I also had a chat about it with a few other people. Members and non-members. I got an overwhelming impression of an organisation that had not moved forwards since 1995! Change? We did that once, people didn't like it!

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    How do you think I know something about the LeRoc Fed? I looked into joining. I spoke with John Eastman, even met him. If the rest of the LeRoc Fed were like John I'd have no hesitation in joining. And it probably wouldn't need much improving if they all thought like John.

    However, I also had a chat about it with a few other people. Members and non-members. I got an overwhelming impression of an organisation that had not moved forwards since 1995! Change? We did that once, people didn't like it!
    OK, but surely you'd want these people as members in any new organisation anyway?

    So you'd still have to drag them kicking and screaming into the Century of the Fruitbat, wouldn't you? You'd still have to promote new working practices, to people who might be resistant, no matter what you called the organisation.

    If so, why not work within an existing structure than go to the effort of creating a new one?

    (I'm desperately trying to avoid a phrase containing words like "wheel", "the" and "re-inventing" here...)

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor View Post
    That's always a problem with any organisation, and not just in jive. Look at religion if you want to find ancient grudges
    Having been involved in both, religious debates are mild in comparison to dance politics!

    I know its a problem with any organisation, and I know I've only been involved in the dance scene for 3 years, but the level of 'I don't like what X is doing I'm going to boycott their events/ban them/set up on my own' seems to be pretty high and there are some strong personalities on the scene. Any organisation taking on the task of trying to establish a 'common ground' will face several challenges, not least of which will be how to have strong leadership, while at the same time trying to avoid issues of 'history' of any personalities that might be involved in that leadership.

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    DeJaVouz? Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva! it was only 2 years ago you raised the same thing...

    It was more to do with having a 'unified voice' to bully competition and event organisers, but I don'treally see what else a blanket MJDA would cover and how it would benifit any of the "independants" (inc. Ceroc)??


    Quote Originally Posted by me from that thread...
    This would only be of interest to those who have an interest in competitions. Even then, a vocal interest and/or a grumble about how existing competitions are run.
    Of the number of MJers, how many actually compete? And of these, how many 'expect' better than they get? And how many of these think that their opinions should influence future events and other competions?

    IMHO this would create an elite clique giving more voice to an already vocal minority.

    What's wrong with just contacting the organisers and puting your views to them? Especially since most of the complaintives are experanced dancers who are known "on the scene" and who's opinions do actually hold some weight? What's wrong with organisers contacting other organisers or attending events to see what works and dosn't work so that they can apply it to their event?

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    (I'm desperately trying to avoid a phrase containing words like "wheel", "the" and "re-inventing" here...)
    You did better than me. I came right out with it!

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    So you'd still have to drag them kicking and screaming into the Century of the Fruitbat, wouldn't you? You'd still have to promote new working practices, to people who might be resistant, no matter what you called the organisation.
    So what you're all saying is that we need is a democratic organisation with no leader, where we all think as one, and where the organisation would need to overcome futile resistance in order to assimilate the newcomers?

    ™?

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    So what you're all saying is that we need is a democratic organisation with no leader, where we all think as one, and where the organisation would need to overcome futile resistance in order to assimilate the newcomers?
    Not me, guv - Andy is the one saying that LeRoc are a bunch of old women fuddy-duddies who can't even step back on the correct foot.

    I'm saying that we already have a "MJ federation", two if you count the MJDA as well, and creating a third is just, well, insane to the point of Python.

    If there is a "problem" with LeRoc member attitudes (and I've no idea one way or the other), that's not the fault of LeRoc, that's a reflection of what lots of independent MJ organisers think.

    So, again, the only way a new structure or organisation would avoid that, is if it doesn't include LeRoc organisers. And with no Ceroc, no Leroc - one wonders how inclusive this organisation would be...

    In other words - join LeRoc, Andy, that's what it's there for. And if you want change, promote it. I'm sure LeRoc Federation will welcome input and assistance with open arms.

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    In other words - join LeRoc, Andy, that's what it's there for. And if you want change, promote it. I'm sure LeRoc Federation will welcome input and assistance with open arms.
    You're missing the point. Andy just wants to be a founder member of something.

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
    Having been involved in both, religious debates are mild in comparison to dance politics!
    I think it depends on your religion. I get the impression that a huge amount of terrorism in the world is part of a religious debate that's got out of hand. Ask Salman Rushdie...

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Not me, guv - Andy is the one saying that LeRoc are a bunch of old women fuddy-duddies who blah blah blah blah....
    Have you forgotten already that there is no such thing as a "LeRoc" organisation? You do remember that many LeRoc classes are independent organisations, don't you, and that "LeRoc" is a generic term for the dance? Andy's talking about the LeRoc Federation. A voluntary* organisation that MJ organisers & teachers can join for various benefits. If not - I'm sure Barry & I can remind you....

    And John's already said that Andy can step back on any foot he pleases. I agree with ESG - Andy just wants to be Queen (ooops! I mean Founder) of something.


    *Voluntary = not mandatory, which means LeRoc teachers & organisers don't have to join.

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    Have you forgotten already that there is no such thing as a "LeRoc" organisation? You do remember that many LeRoc classes are independent organisations, don't you, and that "LeRoc" is a generic term for the dance?
    Vaguely, but I didn't actually care enough to remember about it. I remember they had some silly ideas about footwork, that's about it.

    Who are you again?

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    Re: An Organisation for Modern Jive Organisers?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    Not me, guv - Andy is the one saying that LeRoc are a bunch of old women fuddy-duddies who can't even step back on the correct foot.

    -snip-

    In other words - join LeRoc, Andy, that's what it's there for. And if you want change, promote it. I'm sure LeRoc Federation will welcome input and assistance with open arms.
    I think that's a significant part of it. I couldn't join a dance organisation that got its technique so incredibly wrong that they teach their students to step back with the wrong foot. How would I pass their exam? Would I want to pass an exam when I disagreed with the basic tecnique? A couple of the people I know who've recently taken the exam told me that they had to learn to dance differently to pass the exam and then go back to dancing properly afterwards

    Maybe the danced differently in the mid-nineties. I know I did

    And, why would I want to join the LeRoc Federation when they're mostly based in Bristol?

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