Simon Boreland - visionary or cynical manipulator?

[Gus]

So ... back on thread .... any reports from the openning night? At least (so far) ther's not been the usual claims to be teaching something new/innovative/fusion/better than anyone else ..... we get that all the time up here Whats hus USP? What will be the key to pulling in the customers (away from Ceroc(tm) venues?) ?

[Feelingpink]

Still speculating baselessly & wildly?

So, FP - how do you feel about Dr Dre?

Don't like him much, although guess I could west coast to some of his stuff if pushed (& preferably drunk). I don't know about holding him up as a bastion of happening dudeness - the guy's older than me

[El Salsero Gringo]

So ... back on thread .... any reports from the openning night? At least (so far) ther's not been the usual claims to be teaching something new/innovative/fusion/better than anyone else ..... we get that all the time up here Whats hus USP? What will be the key to pulling in the customers (away from Ceroc(tm) venues?) ?

Um.... what could possible be uniqueabout Simon Borland teaching at the Hippodrome...there's something there ... but I can't quite put my finger on it. Nope, it's gone.

To be honest I can't see him pulling customers away from Ceroc, more likely generating his own customers from the non-dancing public. There are 11 million people living in london, and to a first approximation 0% of them have ever tried any form of partner dance.

[TiggsTours]

No, I understand ok. We're not discussing the rights and wrongs of him setting up on his own. We're discussing the rights and wrongs of the way he's gone about announcing it. Feel free not to join in if you don't want to.

You're very good at just pulling out the bits of people's quotes that you want to use to make them look bad, and ignoring the other bits, aren't you? e.g. the rest of my quote:

As for discussing the rights and wrongs of his advertising tactics, feel free to carry on, if you wish, I'm just expressing my opinion of "more fool you" (not you per say) for going along Friday night, when he made it quite clear in his emails before the evening exactly what he was intending. If you (not you per say) didn't want to be a part of this "underhanded" tactic, he did give everyone the opportunity to decide not to go.

He didn't send out any information, because he was being dishonest about things.

He categorically *didn't* say, anywhere, in advance, "I'm opening my own class every week and this is the promotion event". If he had, that would have been honest. But he didn't (and lord knows, he had plenty of opportunities.) Hints, and sneakily-worded emails do not count as honesty in my book. If you deliberately set out to decieve -which he did - then it's just nasty to rely on "well you should have guessed" to cover your arse. Shame on you, Tiggs.

Ah, so I just imagined receiving this email then, or made it up?:

If you want to support us in creating an ongoing Jive Super Club then lets make the place hum. If this is a conflict for you personally, we understand - Please contact us if you do not wish to come, as I can contact people on the waitlist.

He was even dishonest to me on the phone on Thursday when I asked him, point-blank, what was going on. I wonder how those doing the inviting feel about their part in the deception?

Fair enough, if you had a private conversation with him that left you feeling deceived, that's different, also, the people involved in inviting large groups of people for him also have every right to feel deceived, and if they choose to comment, that's fine. However, I personally was invited to a free party, I then received an email from Simon that (in my mind) clearly stated that he was embarking on launching a regular event, this would be the launch party for that, and if I didn't feel that I wanted to attend under those conditions, he would fully understand. I do not feel I was deceived in anyway, I'm sorry for those of you who do.

[Paulthetrainer]

I went to Simon Borlands 'party' on Friday - I'd never heard of him beforehand. I just got a text from a friend who somehow knew about it and gave me simon's email. I contacted him and got four places for myself and three friends. Anyway, my immediate thought was "why would some guy who doesn't know me, let me come to a 'free party' - he must be looking to ultimately promote something!". Which was correct....I went anyway cos a) it was free, and b) whatever he was trying to promote might be good.

Personally I didn't feel duped, but I guess others might have saw it differently depending on how they came across the info and if they already knew Simon...

[Amir]

Agree with all the above: The email made it clear that the intention was to create a new "Super Club".

So yes a new class was announced at the party, so what? It was still a private party that everyone there asked to be invited to. So what if '250 lessons' is not the 'real' reason for the party. Do you think Halloween is the real reason for any of the other jive parties happening? Will any of them be free?

What if Ceroc had held a free party at the Hippodrome, free food, show etc, and then on the night announced that they are going to start classes there every Monday. Would anyone be surprised? Would people have been upset?

I hope it is a big success.

Actually, I hope it is initially a big success, but then they all realize they would rather listen to chilled out quiet music in a relaxed atmosphere on a great dance floor somewhere like the Hammersmith Club.

But in the meantime, I hope it is a big success.

[TiggsTours]

Agree with all the above: The email made it clear that the intention was to create a new "Super Club".

So yes a new class was announced at the party, so what? It was still a private party that everyone there asked to be invited to. So what if '250 lessons' is not the 'real' reason for the party. Do you think Halloween is the real reason for any of the other jive parties happening? Will any of them be free?

What if Ceroc had held a free party at the Hippodrome, free food, show etc, and then on the night announced that they are going to start classes there every Monday. Would anyone be surprised? Would people have been upset?

I hope it is a big success.

Actually, I hope it is initially a big success, but then they all realize they would rather listen to chilled out quiet music in a relaxed atmosphere on a great dance floor somewhere like the Hammersmith Club.

But in the meantime, I hope it is a big success.

Oh, and by the way, you and Cat were fantastic!

[David Bailey]

Fair enough, if you had a private conversation with him that left you feeling deceived, that's different, also, the people involved in inviting large groups of people for him also have every right to feel deceived, and if they choose to comment, that's fine. However, I personally was invited to a free party, I then received an email from Simon that (in my mind) clearly stated that he was embarking on launching a regular event, this would be the launch party for that, and if I didn't feel that I wanted to attend under those conditions, he would fully understand. I do not feel I was deceived in anyway, I'm sorry for those of you who do.

Hmmm, I don't think anyone can really say that he was completely above-board. If you have to depend on hints, last-minute emails and rumours, then you're not being clearly-informed.

The main thing is, some people do feel deceived. Whether they "should" feel that way is irrelevant, the fact is, that's how they feel. It's a fact. So there's clearly some loss of goodwill from some people, which is a shame.

Personally, I didn't feel deceived, used, abused or exploited. But then, I didn't go, and probably won't go there in future either, so it's academic to me.

Actually, I hope it is initially a big success, but then they all realize they would rather listen to chilled out quiet music in a relaxed atmosphere on a great dance floor somewhere like the Hammersmith Club.

Somewhere like it, but not actually there, of course, because no-one can find it.

[TiggsTours]

Hmmm, I don't think anyone can really say that he was completely above-board. If you have to depend on hints, last-minute emails and rumours, then you're not being clearly-informed.

The main thing is, some people do feel deceived. Whether they "should" feel that way is irrelevant, the fact is, that's how they feel. It's a fact. So there's clearly some loss of goodwill from some people, which is a shame.

That's fine, and if they want to waste their negative energy on feeling that way, that's up to them. Personally, I prefer to spend my positive energy on not feeling deceived, and not being pushed into believing I was deceived by people with a glass half empty way of looking at things.

[Lory]

Actually, I hope it is initially a big success, but then they all realize they would rather listen to chilled out quiet music in a relaxed atmosphere on a great dance floor somewhere like the Hammersmith Club.

I thinks its inevitable, if it is a success and he gains a completely new client base, there's bound to be a percentage that will end up spreading their wings, which 'will' benifit everyone else.

Although, when I first started at Finchley, it took me 6months to actually realise that 'Ceroc' wasn't just Monday's and Tuesdays at that particular venue! Other venues and events were never ever mentioned!

[El Salsero Gringo]

Agree with all the above: The email made it clear that the intention was to create a new "Super Club".

The email (the day before) made it somewhat hazy that might somehow be his intention if things worked out well. Which is why I spoke to him on the 'phone. What a pity that he didn't make clear when asked point-blank what his plans were. Pity also that it wasn't made clear at the time of my being invited, some three weeks earlier, so when I made plans to celebrate my girlfriend's birthday at this party I knew what it was going to be - and had the choice to do something else that night if I'd wanted to. Pity that the plans to teach a new weekly class, having arranged teachers, venue, preprinted materials, websites, trading names and the rest managed to be overlooked in this "maybe we'll have another party" sort of "Super Club". Pity the "the management decided tonight to let us have the venue on Monday so we've just decided we're going to start a class" line just somehow slipped out as if it were all a great big surprise to Simon himself.

Sorry but this way of going about things is all just so much bullshit. I still wish him and his class well, but don't try to tell me he's been even remotely straightforward.

[David Bailey]

Although, when I first started at Finchley, it took me 6months to actually realise that 'Ceroc' wasn't just Monday's and Tuesdays at that particular venue!

They do Tuesdays as well?

Other venues and events were never ever mentioned!

There are other venues?

Blimey, no-one ever told me.

[El Salsero Gringo]

What if Ceroc had held a free party

Thanks for the best laugh of the day.

[Amir]

Sorry but this way of going about things is all just so much bullshit. I still wish him and his class well, but don't try to tell me he's been even remotely straightforward.

Maybe he didn't feel he could be straightforward when

Ceroc ....could easily put him out of business if they wanted to.

I also think it is perfectly feasible that the Hippodrome wanted to see that he could run one successful event before agreeing to a weekly event. He can not be paying them the normal full hire fee, so its up to them too.

But even if it was all a cunning yet convoluted marketing ploy, (that backfired it seems) so what?

I just don't think that choosing to announce your new classes at your free party is 'cynical' or 'manipulative.'

[fletch]

But even if it was all a cunning yet convoluted marketing ploy, so what?

I just don't think that choosing to announce your new classes at your free party is 'cynical' or 'manipulative.'

[JamesGeary]

I am utterly confused at the flak Simon seems to have taken.
He wants to runs his own business rather than working for someone else (either is good) and has taken the steps necessary to make his business succeed (hopefully for him).

If he had promoted it as a regular night earlier then ceroc would have run a competing night on the same night, but free, and with free alcohol. Any sensible business would. Duh. I would.

I mean just think about Blackpool.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Maybe he didn't feel he could be straightforward

I'm sure he felt that he couldn't - or shouldn't. He might even have been right - but that doesn't change the way it made me feel!

But even if it was all a cunning yet convoluted marketing ploy, (that backfired it seems) so what?

No great shakes really. I don't dislike the man, and I don't hold anything against him. There is much that I admire about him.

I just don't think that choosing to announce your new classes at your free party is 'cynical' or 'manipulative.'

Not necessarily per se, but he left me (and others) feeling a bit "used". It would have been nicer if he could have found a way that avoided that.

[MartinHarper]

I'm sure Simon will be happy to offer full refunds on his free party to anyone who feels used.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm sure Simon will be happy to offer full refunds on his free party to anyone who feels used.

I'm interested in this implied concept that anything that isn't charged for in £'s and pence is ineligible for comment, and ultra common courtesy and consideration. Please expand on the subject!

[David Bailey]

So, did anyone go last night? What was it like?

I'm beginning to regret not going on Friday now, I feel left out of feeling used and abused...