Simon Boreland - visionary or cynical manipulator?

[David Bailey]

Goodwill is everything in business, and Borland threw it all away when he disclosed in the middle of his rambling soliloquy that the real motivation for the event was to launch "Jive Nation".

Yeah - in hindsight, I think that was a Dumb Move. The "250th" thing was dumber than dumb, even I thought it was strange and I'm gullible as heck...

On the other hand, being invited to a free party, in the hippodrome, with classes and demonstrations - listening to someone talk for a few minutes would seem a low price to pay. I mean, blimey, it's not as if he stole your firstborn or something.

The venture is doomed to failure.

I don't agree - it could succeed.

I'd agree that "Blatantly deceiving some of your customer base" is not a good way to start, of course. But he's certainly got a lot of publicity for his venue, so in that sense it's worked.

[Get a grip]

If thats what it was all about ... then he's only followed the way that instructor after instructor has followed in setting up thier own venture.

True, but I don't think most previous Ceroc teachers set out with the intention of training under Ceroc and then immediately leaving to do their own thing. The difference here is that I believe that SB's intention from day 1 was to do that. Free country and all that but it's not ethical and does nothing to build the belief in him as someone you could respect and trust. Still he does come from the land of convicts and criminals...

(as they rarely let competition thrive ... RIP Hipsters )

Hipsters failed for one very simple reason - it wasn't a venue that catered for beginners. Any venue that just relies on pulling established dancers from other venues will eventually fail (if run on a weekly basis) as people get bored. With no beginners there, who had been nurtured by an established teacher relationship, there was no loyalty to sustain the venue through tougher times. Say what you will about Ceroc, but they have got it right. New venues are constantly promoted and busked to get virgin members through the door for exactly that reason.

Can't he be both?

He's not bright enough to be both...

Oi! That was my sarky point, mister plagiarist you.

Yes it was, and it was such a good point I thought it was worth repeating..

And it's been a while since Simon last taught for Ceroc.

What, like 3 weeks ago at Bliss?

[David Bailey]

True, but I don't think most previous Ceroc teachers set out with the intention of training under Ceroc and then immediately leaving to do their own thing.

He'd been teaching for a while in Oz before coming to the UK, though, hadn't he? Possibly this was his game plan since being in the UK, but, really, who cares? We should applaud and encourage energy, entrepeneurship and initiative, shouldn't we?

Simon's very very good at the schmoozing side of business - as anyone who's seen him working the floor knows. So I think he's got a fighting chance.

As for the age thing someone mentioned - well, that hasn't stopped Stringfellow (unfortunately )

What, like 3 weeks ago at Bliss?

Hmmm, didn't know that. I dunno what the Ceroc Teacher T&Cs are, but there's a good chance he's broken them - I doubt there's anything in the standard teacher contract that says "Yeah, go on, start your own competitive business, we don't mind" .

But the trick is to prove that this is causing damage to Ceroc. And considering he's had a long break from regular-class-teaching, (6 months?), that he's clearly not using the Ceroc member database, and that there are no close-by events on Mondays (or any day) in Central London doing Ceroc, it becomes harder to prove damage.

[Cruella]

As I mentioned in the main thread on this event, the sense of bewilderment was palpable when eveyone in the room realised they were only there so that they could be added to a mailing list.

I don't honestly think that many people were bewildered! The rumours of this announcement had been winging it's way around for a few weeks before the actual event. As to the mailing list, i was never emailed directly, i had a PM on here, therefore i can't see how they would be able to add me to a mailing list. Unless of course they are relying on advertising on here!

Every single person I spoke to at the event and afterwards thought it was diabolically bad, and their negative feelings were compounded by the feeling that they had not been told what its primary purpose was. The venture is doomed to failure.

You obviously didn't speak to many then, or they were a select group. It was a free evening out at the Hippodrome. I enjoyed the experience and am grateful for the opportunity to see that the famous 'London Hippodrome' was as rough and seedy as any other nightclub.
I personally think it'll be a struggle for it to work but if it does, all well and good. I'm sure that Ceroc will benefit from younger people getting involved with partner dancing, afterall they have been trying to encourage younger members in for a while now.

[El Salsero Gringo]

True, but I don't think most previous Ceroc teachers set out with the intention of training under Ceroc and then immediately leaving to do their own thing. The difference here is that I believe that SB's intention from day 1 was to do that.

Simon is an Australian-trained teacher who began teaching for Ceroc in the UK at ISH the week after he arrived in London - I was at his first class there, by coincidence. He built the venue from 30 people that night to somewhere around 150-200 within a few months and kept it at that level throughout his time there. I don't think you can accuse him of "using" Ceroc any more than you can accuse Ceroc of "using" him. The thought that he intended to benefit from Ceroc training while here is hilarious.

What, like 3 weeks ago at Bliss?

Fair point. It's a while since he gave up his regular London class though.

[El Salsero Gringo]

You obviously didn't speak to many then, or they were a select group.

Just to be clear, how many people did you speak to (from a non-select group) to be able to claim that most were entirely happy with the situation? My experience of people's feelings about the way they'd been set up matches that of Spin-Dryer, and I'll bet my "not very many, select group" is entirely different to his.

[Get a grip]

I personally think it'll be a struggle for it to work but if it does, all well and good. I'm sure that Ceroc will benefit from younger people getting involved with partner dancing, afterall they have been trying to encourage younger members in for a while now.

Like everyone else I think it's admirable to encourage younger dancers into the partner dance format - and the idea of trying to appeal to the club dancer makes sense. But it just can't work.

To appeal to a younger, hipper audience it would make sense to use younger, hipper venues. Club venues by definition do not have large dance floors. The Hippodrome is a prime example (although I wouldn't have said that it was a 'hip' venue). Looking at the floor and the crowd I reckon that you would get a max of 40-50 couples on there - so with some stragglers around the edge let's say 150 max. Your guess is as good as mine as to the cost of hire but most London venues charge around £150-£250 per hour - so you do the Math's..

Then there's the music - if you want to attract a younger crowd then you have to play appropriate music. In fact, just the kind of music the majority of us hate dancing to (2 chords and a thumping beat...) So, experienced dancers won't attend for long and I doubt that you could get 100-150 regular newbie's in.

I hope Simon Oz Boreland (SOB) has got deep pockets...

[David Bailey]

Just to be clear, how many people did you speak to (from a non-select group) to be able to claim that most were entirely happy with the situation? My experience of people's feelings about the way they'd been set up matches that of Spin-Dryer, and I'll bet my "not very many, select group" is entirely different to his.

Woooh, poll:

• Do you feel cynically exploited and used?
• Do you enoy being cynically exploited and used and want more?
• Did you not care?
• How old is Simon Borland?

[Cruella]

Just to be clear, how many people did you speak to (from a non-select group) to be able to claim that most were entirely happy with the situation? My experience of people's feelings about the way they'd been set up matches that of Spin-Dryer, and I'll bet my "not very many, select group" is entirely different to his.

Erm, where exactly did i claim that most people were entirely happy with the situation?
I am picking up on the 'every single person i spoke to at the event and afterwards' comment.
You are lying if you are saying that your experience matches his, as you spoke to myself about it on the night.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Erm, where exactly did i claim that most people were entirely happy with the situation?
I am picking up on the 'every single person i spoke to at the event and afterwards' comment.
You are lying if you are saying that your experience matches his, as you spoke to myself about it on the night.

OK, a certain amount of poetic exaggeration is going on here. Not everybody I spoke to said it was "diabolically bad". The majority of people I spoke to (no I didn't keep count) were somewhat negative about being taken for a ride on the reason for the party.

I wasn't sure under what banner I should be judging the night - as a launch night for a new business, or a private party? My conclusions would be very different!

[Cruella]

OK, a certain amount of poetic exaggeration is going on here. Not everybody I spoke to said it was "diabolically bad". The majority of people I spoke to (no I didn't keep count) were somewhat negative about being taken for a ride on the reason for the party.

I wasn't sure under what banner I should be judging the night - as a launch night for a new business, or a private party? My conclusions would be very different!

Apology excepted.

[David Bailey]

Like everyone else I think it's admirable to encourage younger dancers into the partner dance format - and the idea of trying to appeal to the club dancer makes sense. But it just can't work.

Yet again, I say - it works in salsa clubs, so it's clearly not inherently impossible to get a nightclub-based partner dance business going.

To appeal to a younger, hipper audience it would make sense to use younger, hipper venues. Club venues by definition do not have large dance floors.

Then again, if a venue is open longer, more people might spend time socialising than dancing.

The Hippodrome is a prime example (although I wouldn't have said that it was a 'hip' venue). Looking at the floor and the crowd I reckon that you would get a max of 40-50 couples on there - so with some stragglers around the edge let's say 150 max. Your guess is as good as mine as to the cost of hire but most London venues charge around £150-£250 per hour - so you do the Math's..

Errr.... OK then.

I imagine that the Hippodrome ain't cheap, even on Monday evenings, so yes, let's assume it's about a grand to hire it for the evening. Then assume that running costs etc. add another £500 on to that.

So at £10 entry, you need 150 people there, just to break even. Which is a lot, but SB's achieved that at ISH, and that's about normal for Finchley on Mondays - so it's not impossible.

Assume that 50% are dancing at any one time (I know, low, but it's a different atmosphere), then you can probably get 300 people there max, which would presumably be profitable.

Then there's the music - if you want to attract a younger crowd then you have to play appropriate music. In fact, just the kind of music the majority of us hate dancing to (2 chords and a thumping beat...) So, experienced dancers won't attend for long and I doubt that you could get 100-150 regular newbie's in.

"Newbies" is a relative term. There's an awful lot of people who like thump-thump music - much more than those of us picky devils who like the other stuff in fact. And who's to say that it's impossible to dance well to that music anyway? It may be more of a challenge initially, but so is Tango / Blues.

The majority of people I spoke to (no I didn't keep count)

I'm disappointed in you.
I was expecting an Excel-based survey pie-chart any time now

[Get a grip]

Simon is an Australian-trained teacher who began teaching for Ceroc in the UK at ISH the week after he arrived in London - I was at his first class there, by coincidence. He built the venue from 30 people that night to somewhere around 150-200 within a few months and kept it at that level throughout his time there. I don't think you can accuse him of "using" Ceroc any more than you can accuse Ceroc of "using" him. The thought that he intended to benefit from Ceroc training while here is hilarious. Fair point. It's a while since he gave up his regular London class though.

I think we might be at crossed porpoises here. I know Simon wasn't trained as a teacher here in the UK so you're right, he wasn't going to benefit from that side of the business. In fact all he did was moan about the standard of teaching here suggesting that we should be more like the Australians in our way of teaching (yawn....) GUYS DOUBLE SPIN, MAKING SURE YOU SMACK YOUR PARTNER IN THE EYE WITH YOUR ELBOW AND ALSO MAKING SURE THAT YOU GO WILDLY OFF BALANCE AND LOOK LIKE A DANCING DAG!

No, he was here to benefit from access to the network and to the venues, organizers, teachers and punters - job done.

As for building ISH up, that he did, but people soon get bored with a one trick pony (or donkey....) We must be careful not to confuse charisma with someone who just shouts a lot.

[mikeyr]

I don't honestly think that many people were bewildered! The rumours of this announcement had been winging it's way around for a few weeks before the actual event. As to the mailing list, i was never emailed directly, i had a PM on here, therefore i can't see how they would be able to add me to a mailing list.

I agree with Cruella. Also at no stage of the evening was I pressed for an Email address. Which is very different to when one is visiting the different Ceroc franchises. Also I have to say, I was left in very little doubt that this was something other than a promotional of some sort.

You obviously didn't speak to many then, or they were a select group. It was a free evening out at the Hippodrome. I enjoyed the experience and am grateful for the opportunity to see that the famous 'London Hippodrome' was as rough and seedy as any other nightclub

I thought that, as a promotional event. It was a good one, although more free water would have made it far more enjoyable. While the music was not what I would pay to dance to. It was a party and a pretty good one at that.

I also think it'll be a struggle for it to work if the format from the party is the format they'll use on Mondays. I also think it will struggle to attract many existing dancers.

However, I think if anyone can make it work it will be Simon and his crew, I have a great deal of respect for Simon as a MJ teacher and there are very few people as positive as him in attitude.

Also dont understimate the mans intelligence this venture was obviously not a spur of the moment thing. He has been in this business, and business generally to know that a clear strategy is key to success.

To be blunt, choice and competition benefit the punter in the long run, look how its transforming the weekender market. I am a punter + I have more choice = Good thing

My verdict, Simon Borland Entrepreneur.

[TiggsTours]

Well at least you have something in common

[TiggsTours]

If thats what it was all about ... then he's only followed the way that instructor after instructor has followed in setting up thier own venture. I'm no fan of SB but I do recognise that he has managed to promote himself as a clear brand and from that should be able to launch the new venture.

I'm not sure what the relationship is, if any, with Ceroc. If its an associated venture, then good marketing. If he's striking out alone that it oculd be seen taht he's really suckered Ceroc(tm) and they really should have seen it coming. Similar things have happened on a smaller scale up North for the last three yaers os so. Will be vaugely interested to see if/how the new venture succeeds and if/how Ceroc will seek to counter the competition (as they rarely let competition thrive ... RIP Hipsters )

No matter how SB went about it, no matter what you think of him, a little healthy competition never did anyone any harm.

[TiggsTours]

You are right about Friday's music - we were given a musical remit for the night.

I'm so glad to hear it!

GAG is right on one thing (sorry, should have warned you all to sit down before I started agreeing with him!) the music was dreadful, and was the reason that my friends and I were tucked up in bed with a cup of cocoa by midnight! Not that what you played wasn't any good, it was just all the same!

I was hoping that with such a good line up of DJs (going by your usual standard) the music would be good, if you are going to be DJing for SB regularly, I do hope you will take all feedback back to him, and that he will allow you both to live up to your usual high standards in future.

[TiggsTours]

Every single person I spoke to at the event and afterwards thought it was diabolically bad, and their negative feelings were compounded by the feeling that they had not been told what its primary purpose was.

I wonder it they were the same people clapping and cheering when Simon announced the Monday classes? I didn't see many people not joining in then.

No matter what the primary reason was for the invitation (and I think that's pretty obvious) it was a highly successful marketing ploy, its certainly got everyone talking!

The venture is doomed to failure.

Why not just wait and see, what's so wrong with Ceroc having some real competition? About time too, in my opinion!

[TurboTomato]

So at £10 entry, you need 150 people there, just to break even. Which is a lot, but SB's achieved that at ISH, and that's about normal for Finchley on Mondays - so it's not impossible.

That dance floor cannot comfortably accomodate that many dancers IMO. I certainly wouldn't make it a regular venue, even if it was close to me, purely on that. The fact that the floor itself is not really suitable, having those joins all over it so that it can be raised and lowered, doesn't really help. Dancing is about enjoyment to my mind, and there was little to enjoy about that venue. Don't get me wrong - I enjoyed the party on Friday (more due to the people rather than the dancing) and I wish him luck in his venture but I can't see it succeeding. Btw I didn't feel 'bewildered and upset' by the fact that he essentially used it as a launch - it was a free party for crying out loud, it was my choice to go there and I wasn't made to sign up to anything

[Cruella]

“A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” -Winston Churchill.

"If they can make penicillin out of moldy bread, they can sure make something out of you."- Muhammed Ali.