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Thread: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Hi Scotttwin!
    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    Call me old-fashioned, but I don't like being taken for a fool. The night was all about collecting dancers email addresses and launching a new business venture. I think this is despicable behaviour and whether I enjoyed the night or not, which I have to say I didn't, I would never support anything this individual does again.

    I am very surprised by some of the posts who seem to regard these tactics as socially or commercially acceptable. Perhaps it's a reflection of society that nobody really seems to care anymore about morals, honesty and decency. I would urge some of you to get a backbone and treat Simon with the contempt he deserves.
    I respect the fact you say what you mean, and that you have principles.

    However, I don't think anyone's cheering his methods - and whilst I don't feel as strongly as you, I personally agree that it would have been morally and (to me) commercially more acceptable to be straight from the start. He's definitely lost some goodwill from the experienced-dancer community, from what people are saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    I for one do not wish Simon well in his new future, to me there seems to be very little to be proud off. Isn’t Simon just trying to cream off all the hard work that Ceroc London has done over the years.

    I would respect Simon if he were trying to establish his own market, but when he has targeted existing dancers and teaches intermediate and advanced classes it’s clear what market he is going for.
    I dunno, really. I see it more as attempting to fill a new market.

    If he were genuinely going for the intermediate / advanced market, I'd say he'd have no chance - both from loss of goodwill and because the venue clearly isn't right for those people. But I don't think that's the market he's aiming for. Admittedly, this is all inference, I know nothing about his business plans beyond extrapolation, but that seems the sensible way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    This new night will fail, and Simon trying to impose the ‘Australian model’ on London will also fail. In 3 months time Simon will be operating from a smaller hall having dropped the Australian model of unnecessary fixed footwork – would anyone like to place a bet?
    No, you may well be right.

    For me, the bottom line is that I'm mainly a punter - and if someone opens up a new venue, I'm pleased. Generally, I don't make moral decisions about where to dance, I go for the places I want to dance in.

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
    If he were genuinely going for the intermediate / advanced market, I'd say he'd have no chance - both from loss of goodwill and because the venue clearly isn't right for those people. But I don't think that's the market he's aiming for. Admittedly, this is all inference, I know nothing about his business plans beyond extrapolation, but that seems the sensible way to go..
    Yeah. Why let facts spoil a perfectly enjoyable bit of speculation? From the website:

    7:00pm Beginner Class
    7:45pm Progression
    Intermediate and
    Advanced Classes
    8.30pm 3 hours of awesome freestyle
    So - basically he's teaching the standard MJ class model - with the addition of Progression and Advanced classes. Isn't that excedingly similar to the teaching model you've posted about as being ideal?

    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    ... In 3 months time Simon will be operating from a smaller hall having dropped the Australian model of unnecessary fixed footwork
    Oooh! Evil! Fixed footwork! Will this man's crimes never end....


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    Lovely Moderator ducasi's Avatar
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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    I wasn't there, but I'm curious... How did he fool people into providing email addresses?

    There are data protection laws which (I'm sure) set down that when personal information is gathered, what purpose it will be used for must be stated, and an "opt-out" must also be available if it includes marketing.
    Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I wasn't there, but I'm curious... How did he fool people into providing email addresses?

    There are data protection laws which (I'm sure) set down that when personal information is gathered, what purpose it will be used for must be stated, and an "opt-out" must also be available if it includes marketing.
    And you think a little thing like that is going to make any difference?

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I wasn't there, but I'm curious... How did he fool people into providing email addresses?

    There are data protection laws which (I'm sure) set down that when personal information is gathered, what purpose it will be used for must be stated, and an "opt-out" must also be available if it includes marketing.
    why is he getting such bad press here ?

    He has my e-mail address, i didnt go

    If i dont like it i can block it, sorted

    I think the web site and idea is great and I wish him and his little helpers all the best

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by ducasi View Post
    I wasn't there, but I'm curious... How did he fool people into providing email addresses?

    .
    Absolutely no e-mail addresses where asked for nor obtained from any one I know of at the Hippodrome and this is a red herring topic on this thread as far as I'm concerned.

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by under par View Post
    Absolutely no e-mail addresses where asked for nor obtained from any one I know of at the Hippodrome and this is a red herring topic on this thread as far as I'm concerned.
    There was a free raffle. As I understand it, you had to give your email address and phone number for your ticket to be put in the pot.

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    Call me old-fashioned, but I don't like being taken for a fool. The night was all about collecting dancers email addresses and launching a new business venture.
    Scott
    Again I say when and where were e-mail addresses asked for???

    I was pm'd and replied by pm.

    No e-mail was requested on the night or beforehand to my knowledge.

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by Spin dryer View Post
    There was a free raffle. As I understand it, you had to give your email address and phone number for your ticket to be put in the pot.

    If that was the case, they missed me and the group I arrived with and I now understand what you are all going on about.

    I am wrong and sorry about my prvious 2 posts.

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    If the post about the Hippodrome losing their general license is correct the the actual business model might be to put on some early evening classes so it looks like a privately booked dance class for members only, and the Hippodrome certainly has a license to sell alcohol at such.

    Come the nightclup hours run the place like it used to be run, except that the customers have to join the club. In this obviously completely fantastical scenarion the target customer would be same as it was before, people who want to go clubbing. The only difference being that if they turn up early they get some free dance classes in some weird arcane form of dance., plus a new customer intake, some MJ'ers who want some different classes before spending the night clubbing. I repeat, fantastical ...

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by Spin dryer View Post
    There was a free raffle. As I understand it, you had to give your email address and phone number for your ticket to be put in the pot.
    The raffle was not free.

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38 View Post
    why is he getting such bad press here ?

    He has my e-mail address, i didnt go

    If i dont like it i can block it, sorted

    I think the web site and idea is great and I wish him and his little helpers all the best

    Most guests were guests of others who had not supplied email details only names.


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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by Spin dryer View Post
    There was a free raffle. As I understand it, you had to give your email address and phone number for your ticket to be put in the pot.
    There was a free raffle as well as the money one, for the free one there was a space for an Email address as there was for phone number, I had the choice of putting either or neither, I chose neither. My entry was still put in the pot, I assume that means it was not a mandatory requirement to enter the raffle, it also was not a condition of entry, I was contacted via PM on this forum, so as far as I am aware Simon doesnt have my email.

    However, whenever I go to a Ceroc franchise that is not the one that issued my card I find that I am put under varying degrees of pressure to provide contact details for the mailing lists, even when I explain I am just there for that night. some even try to issue me a new card.......... Why is that, can anybody tell me
    Last edited by mikeyr; 24th-October-2006 at 10:28 AM. Reason: for clarity & conciseness

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    However, whenever I go to a Ceroc franchise that is not the one that issued my card I find that I am put under varying degrees of pressure to provide contact details for the mailing lists, even when I explain I am just there for that night. some even try to issue me a new card.......... Why is that, can anybody tell me
    I had the same happen to me when I went to Rebel Roc (back before it was taken over). I explained that I was there as a one-off, and (probably) wasn't going to be going back any time soon, since I lived in Scotland. But I still had to pay for a card, and provide my contact details onto their form.

    They didn't look at it after I'd filled it in though. So I wonder if Mickey Mouse (sorry Minnie, first name that came to mind) is getting the emails they send out to him in Disneyland.com....

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou View Post
    So - basically he's teaching the standard MJ class model - with the addition of Progression and Advanced classes. Isn't that excedingly similar to the teaching model you've posted about as being ideal?
    It's the standard Australian model I believe - and yes, if it were really like that, I'd be very happy. But I very much doubt there'll be many experienced dancers there - OK, yes, speculation, but very well informed speculation. I can't see Jango-level classes there somehow, in other words.

    Also, unless the place has grown a hell of a lot since I was there, I can't see them fitting 3 simultaneous classes on the single floor without a lot of crowding.

    So I suspect that format was more of an aspiration than a promise, as the politicians say...

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    {snip some reservations that many of us share}

    This new night will fail, and Simon trying to impose the ‘Australian model’ on London will also fail. In 3 months time Simon will be operating from a smaller hall having dropped the Australian model of unnecessary fixed footwork – would anyone like to place a bet?

    Scott
    I’m running on the not-too-wild assumption that Simon will be teaching the Australian model as well. I’m curious why you think that’s a liability though. It works pretty damn well in Australia after all…

    Simon is unlikely to make a huge (or even a barely perceptible) dent in the ‘’intermediate’’ and ‘’advanced’’ dancer market that Ceroc London has at the moment because those people like what they’ve grown comfortable with. Just like Ceroc most of his students will be beginners, and beginners will learn what you teach them and accept it as part of the exercise (within reason of course ) pretty much without question.

    I can guarantee there are a few Australians out there who are disillusioned with Ceroc London who would jump at the chance to do things the way they did them in Australia. It’s a fair assumption that Simon knows a few of them himself. Even if there are only half a dozen he can convince to support him then he has an ‘’advanced’’ skill base that more than a few Ceroc clubs would be jealous to have. Having more advanced dancers around to help out makes a big difference to how quickly a club develops.

    On the footwork note, I can think of a few Ceroc UK teachers who insist that set footwork patterns are a must as well, and they’re certainly in positions to justify their opinions. I don’t see it as an evil at all. In fact, I see it as a positive.

    For that matter, I’ve heard respected teachers in the UK praise his teaching ability in general, and especially his ability to motivate. I’ve only ever seen him teaching in weekenders myself so I can’t speak from personal experience beyond that, but I’ve enjoyed those.

    Simon was trying to create a party atmosphere on Friday, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that all the music he’ll be playing in his venue will be like that. His website includes a music selection that suggests we might expect a greater range in future. I’m sure he was shrewdly considering that impression when he developed the site, but it doesn’t mean he’s lying about it either.

    I have no idea if Simon can pull this venture off. What I will say is that I’m not going to rule his success out considering his track record at building ventures previously. Whatever you may think about him personally (and I have strong reservations just like everyone else here does) – he knows the business as well, as if not better than, anyone. Most of his clientele won’t be forumites, but I saw a packed dance floor full of people who were having a good time on Friday who may well disagree with the consensus here.

    I intend to give him time to prove himself and see what he’s doing with my own eyes before I make too many judgements.

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    Call me old-fashioned, but I don't like being taken for a fool. The night was all about collecting dancers email addresses and launching a new business venture. I think this is despicable behaviour and whether I enjoyed the night or not, which I have to say I didn't, I would never support anything this individual does again.
    If you are wearing shop bought clothes, eating supermarket bought food, or living anywhere in the west you are almost certainly supporting countless companies and individuals with despicable behaviour.



    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    Perhaps it's a reflection of society that nobody really seems to care anymore about morals, honesty and decency.
    Choosing when you are going to announce your new dance night is not a question of morals. How is anyone worse off because of when they found out about jivenation?


    Quote Originally Posted by scotttwin View Post
    I for one do not wish Simon well in his new future, to me there seems to be very little to be proud off. Isn’t Simon just trying to cream off all the hard work that Ceroc London has done over the years. I would respect Simon if he were trying to establish his own market, but when he has targeted existing dancers and teaches intermediate and advanced classes it’s clear what market he is going for.
    Simon was one of the people doing the hard work for Ceroc.

    There were apparently 300 at the party who had never done jive before.

    Neither Simon nor anyone else will be able to run a successful night without lots of their own hard work. If you can fill the Hippodrome on a Monday night then you've busted your ozzie arse.

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyr View Post
    ... However, whenever I go to a Ceroc franchise that is not the one that issued my card I find that I am put under varying degrees of pressure to provide contact details for the mailing lists, even when I explain I am just there for that night. some even try to issue me a new card.......... Why is that, can anybody tell me
    Each Franchise is a separate business. It is supposed to be a member only organisation, and some venues only let on that basis. A portion of the membership fee goes back to Head Office, and the franchisee works under those arrangements.

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    Ceroc Teacher Dan Hudson's Avatar
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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post


    Simon was one of the people doing the hard work for Ceroc..

    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    There were apparently 300 at the party who had never done jive before...
    Quote Originally Posted by Amir View Post
    Neither Simon nor anyone else will be able to run a successful night without lots of their own hard work. If you can fill the Hippodrome on a Monday night then you've busted your ozzie arse.
    Not if they are all somebody elses punters it doesne't, we can all send PM's and emails to get customers

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    Re: Simon Borland's Party at the Hippodrome, 20/10/06

    I have been told by people at Ceroc that Simon works harder than any other Ceroc teacher.

    If you were at the event there were obviously many people who had not done jive before. I didn't count them, but I don't actually care.

    A few pms on the forum or emails will not be enough to fill the Hippodrome every Monday. If he fills it it is because he and his team have worked hard. I just don't believe there is an easy way to fill a venue with paying customers.
    Last edited by Amir; 24th-October-2006 at 11:52 AM.

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