New website design and build

Like many other small operators, I’ve been looking at getting website up. My previous (poor) attempt was self-built in FrontPage 2000, and looked it. I’ve looked at building using Dreamweaver or something, but this seems to be a real waste of time when web-site design has become very much a commodity, with most providers able to tailor a solution from a range of templates they’ve accumulated.

So … how much should it cost to get a simple website up with graphics, links to video and iTunes and simple content management? The pro site I had built for my consultancy practice cost me £700 incl VAT … how much should a far simper design cost? Anyone you’d recommend? Any modern-day design features that are cheap to build but add real impact and usability to the website?

Im in the same boat at the mo, just getting website up and running.

I have just thrown a basic template up which was provided by my webhosts (Web Hosting - Web Hosting Company UK - Fasthosts) for now as I have tonnes of other stuff to sort out before getting a killer website up :cool:.

The route I am going to take is to design it all myself in spare time (as and when i get it) using photoshop then using dreamweaver to do the coding.

I did look at using free templates to get a basic one off the ground fast but there is nothing decent or suitable for dance classes out there, that I found anyway. You could always have a look yourself. Free Web Templates - Get free website templates and page layouts, flash templates, business templates and more is a good place to start.

With regards to how much it would cost someone to do it, that all depends on the person and exactly what you want. The best bet is to find some younger person who will do it more for the enjoyment of doing it than some company that will do 5 hours work for 1k (they do exist, I worked for one!).

You could always ask around your dancers, someone out there might know how to do it. You will be better off with a dancer doing it than someone who has never heard of MJ.

Or better still, if you have the time, learn how to do it yourself. I would recommend learning ASP as it is pretty easy to set up mail lists etc with it. If you do do this and get stuck, let me know and I will help (as will others I'm sure)

Remember, it's better to have a simpler site that works in all browsers (including the likes of Safari and Opera) than something flashy that only works in IE and Mozilla :flower:

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Originally Posted by StokeBloke

Remember, it's better to have a simpler site that works in all browsers (including the likes of Safari and Opera) than something flashy that only works in IE and Mozilla :flower:

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I've always been told this, but why? What percentage of people use anything other than mozilla and IE? And are they not the "geeky" types that would check it in one of these just so that they can complain that it dosn't work in safari/opera and give examples? :rolleyes::wink:

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Originally Posted by Gadget

I've always been told this, but why? What percentage of people use anything other than mozilla and IE? And are they not the "geeky" types that would check it in one of these just so that they can complain that it dosn't work in safari/opera and give examples? :rolleyes::wink:

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Well, I quite often surf from my phone using Opera mini, as it's a fast & easy to use browser. And if I'm away from home & looking for somewhere to dance, it's very handy if the organisation's site works for all browsers. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Gadget

I've always been told this, but why? What percentage of people use anything other than mozilla and IE? And are they not the "geeky" types that would check it in one of these just so that they can complain that it dosn't work in safari/opera and give examples? :rolleyes::wink:

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You used the word percentage, and answered your own question. According to here, 3.4% of web users do not use IE or Firefox - andhere shows the worlds total of internet users as 1,319,872,109 - so if we assume that the w3c stats above are scalable to everyone (and also assume web/internet are interchangeable) that suggests around 40-50 million people are going to be really annoyed you didnt have the common decency to write your web site properly ;) But its "only" 3.4% right ?

Its also interesting to note that the single most popular browser is Firefox ;) Yet there are still people out there who only develop for IE6. The crazy fools.

The trouble with web site design is like haircuts you only know a good one when you see it.

Modern tools make life a lot easier for amateurs to get a reasonable site but the good ones still cost in terms of cash outlay and time.

There's a lot of buzz around YUI (Yahoo User Interface) - I'm really impressed by what our boys have been doing with it The Yahoo! User Interface Library (YUI)

One prob th MJ website design is that most out there are ugly and give no insperation.

Welcome to Mo'jive.com &copy is the best one I have come across.

What should be included in an MJ website?

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Originally Posted by clevedonboy

The trouble with web site design is like haircuts you only know a good one when you see it.

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Ahhh ... but is anyone actualy going to recoomend/volunteer a good designer ... with a portfolio of succesfull deliveries to back up their claims?

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Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

One prob th MJ website design is that most out there are ugly and give no insperation.

Welcome to Mo'jive.com &copy is the best one I have come across.

What should be included in an MJ website?

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some content ? i get a blue bar, an orange bar and nothing else on that site :)

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Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

some content ? i get a blue bar, an orange bar and nothing else on that site :)

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You must have an iphone. The internet at your fingertips. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

You must have an iphone. The internet at your fingertips. :rolleyes:

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:rofl: Bless. Other, more functional phones, are also available... :wink:

Actually, opera mini shows a completely blank page for that site.

The N95's native browser shows the whole page, but it's so big, it's not nice to navigate. And the links don't work, so I can't see where the venues are, so I couldn't go to a class. :(

Shame, as it's so nice looking. But what's the use of it being pretty if it doesn't work?

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Originally Posted by Lou

Shame, as it's so nice looking. But what's the use of it being pretty if it doesn't work?

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It is? I think it's hideous.... Oh well - tastes differ.

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Originally Posted by Gus

Ahhh ... but is anyone actualy going to recoomend/volunteer a good designer ... with a portfolio of succesfull deliveries to back up their claims?

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Dunno. What's in it for me? :na:

Seriously though - I know a few folk of that ilk, and I'm currently finishing up on a fairly insane project that may be of use to you. Will PM you.

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Originally Posted by straycat264

It is? I think it's hideous.... Oh well - tastes differ.

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:D As an ex-professional web designer, I like it because I think the layout is efficient. There are clear labels to show you where the information you want is. It highlights the special offers and the latest news. Presumably the colour scheme is dictated by MoJive? It's a bit cheerful, but I suppose it's meant to be energetic - so I'd say it's appropriate.

I think Lee highlighted that particular site, as a lot of the other MJ organisation pages are far more hideous! :wink:

It just annoys me from a usability standpoint because the designer's obviously put a lot of effort into making it easy to navigate - but fails because it doesn't work on that small number of browsers. I would hate it if I was working down in Southampton and wanted to go out for a dance, as I wouldn't be able to get the details. :(

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Originally Posted by Lou

I think Lee highlighted that particular site, as a lot of the other MJ organisation pages are far more hideous! :wink:

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Yup. It's the best MJ one I have seen so far (though I only use IE and FF so didn;t know about it not working on Opera).

I don't know why MJ sites are so horrible, mine included. I really need to do something with it.

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Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

One prob th MJ website design is that most out there are ugly and give no insperation.

Welcome to Mo'jive.com &copy is the best one I have come across.

What should be included in an MJ website?

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I can at least see it inIE6, but there is too much news in too small a window for my liking.

and the W3C validator found 22 errors.

The W3C Markup Validation Service

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Originally Posted by Lou

:D As an ex-professional web designer, I like it because I think the layout is efficient. There are clear labels to show you where the information you want is. It highlights the special offers and the latest news. Presumably the colour scheme is dictated by MoJive? It's a bit cheerful, but I suppose it's meant to be energetic - so I'd say it's appropriate.

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As a current professional web programmer ;) - just a few nitpicks. More, and I'd be here all day...

The colours are OK, although not to my taste, and the overall layout is tidyish, yes - but that's about as far as it goes.

The content still looks somewhat haphazard and messy - especially when you get down to some of the finer details like the text styling etc.

Text layout is generally poor - the front page News box is a classic example - first you have the title 'Headlines', followed, in exactly the same font / colour / size, a bunch of headlines that mean little, and that you can't click on for more info. Pointless - there's only four lines in the whole box which tell you anything useful at all, and they're down the bottom. After that, you need to scroll.

Initial impressions - the whole front page means nothing at all to me - I look at it, and if I didn't know what MoJive was, I'd be none the wiser from this page.

Menu - click on any of the navigation items that have a popup - and there's no way to dismiss the popup without clicking on a link.

I could go on... but I'd be hijacking Gus' thread even more (sorry Gus)

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Originally Posted by straycat264

I could go on... but I'd be hijacking Gus' thread even more (sorry Gus)

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No please continue .... I've maintained for a long time that MJ websitres are some of the worst I've seen. The big boys especially poor; Ceroc HQ, Blitz, C2D etc. Another good reason for getting someone competent to do my website :wink:

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Originally Posted by straycat264

As a current professional web programmer ;) - just a few nitpicks. More, and I'd be here all day...

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My biggest problem with it – I can't use the "back" button. :(

I guess it's using some "Web 2.0" to load content into the same single page, but it means you can't go back and forward, because it is all (well, mostly) one page – and for no good reason that I can see.

having looked at the developing companies own website - they do a lot of "style over substance" sites :)

One of the things about usability is satisfying user expectations - and people expect the BACK button to go BACK one page - look at gmail, as Web 2.0 as you can get and the BACK button works fine.

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Originally Posted by straycat264

As a current professional web programmer ;)

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You win! :D

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Text layout is generally poor - the front page News box is a classic example - first you have the title 'Headlines', followed, in exactly the same font / colour / size, a bunch of headlines that mean little, and that you can't click on for more info. Pointless

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Good point. I hadn't looked at the news in detail And I agree, I would've expected to have been able to click on those headlines.

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Initial impressions - the whole front page means nothing at all to me - I look at it, and if I didn't know what MoJive was, I'd be none the wiser from this page.

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But that means it's not too cluttered - plus the "New to Mojive" & "Classes" buttons take you to more information - and that's what I'd want to click if I wanted to know more.

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Menu - click on any of the navigation items that have a popup - and there's no way to dismiss the popup without clicking on a link.

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I couldn't find a popup (but I've probably got them disabled, so I don't notice). Oh.. hang on - that gallery one! Aha. Yup - might be nicer not to have to click on it.

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I could go on... but I'd be hijacking Gus' thread even more (sorry Gus)

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:rofl: Gus'll love it.

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Originally Posted by ducasi

My biggest problem with it – I can't use the "back" button. :(

I guess it's using some "Web 2.0" to load content into the same single page, but it means you can't go back and forward, because it is all (well, mostly) one page – and for no good reason that I can see.

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That's my bugbear. :( I can cope with the colours, non-links, fonts (although now that Stray's pointed it out, that bold is annoying me), and videos that start without warning! But if I can't navigate... what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

having looked at the developing companies own website - they do a lot of "style over substance" sites :)

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Style over substance? Sounds like my average MJ night...

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Originally Posted by ducasi

My biggest problem with it – I can't use the "back" button. :(

I guess it's using some "Web 2.0" to load content into the same single page, but it means you can't go back and forward, because it is all (well, mostly) one page – and for no good reason that I can see.

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It's because it's a Flash site - which is one huge disadvantage of using Flash. Not to say that you can't have a Flash site with the back button working, but it's very hard to do it well.

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Originally Posted by Lou

But that means it's not too cluttered - plus the "New to Mojive" & "Classes" buttons take you to more information - and that's what I'd want to click if I wanted to know more.

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Mebbe so - but you have to bear in mind that the web-browsing public has a very low attention span. A site literally has 30 seconds or so to grab someone's attention, and then they'll very often be off to look at somewhere else - I'm terrible for this. So your home page is crucial when it comes to grabbing and holding the attention of new visitors. This one is only going to grab people who already know what MoJive is. Fine if that's your aim, but in that case, why make the site so flashy? Regular users really won't care about that.
Ever come across the 'AIDA' principle for advertising? Put (over)simply, a good home page should inspire the following reactions in new visitors, in this order:
Attention: Grab the visitor's attention.
Interest: Show them something to grab their interest.
Desire: Show them something they want to have / do, or even make them want it..
Action: Give them an easy step they can take towards fulfilling that desire.

Obviously, there's a lot more to it than that, but you get the idea.

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Originally Posted by Lou

I couldn't find a popup (but I've probably got them disabled, so I don't notice). Oh.. hang on - that gallery one! Aha. Yup - might be nicer not to have to click on it.

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Bad phrasing on my part. I mean the submenus.

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Originally Posted by straycat264

Ever come across the 'AIDA' principle for advertising? Put (over)simply, a good home page should inspire the following reactions in new visitors, in this order:
Attention: Grab the visitor's attention.
Interest: Show them something to grab their interest.
Desire: Show them something they want to have / do, or even make them want it..
Action: Give them an easy step they can take towards fulfilling that desire.

Obviously, there's a lot more to it than that, but you get the idea.

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I think the site achieves those aims. I think it's quite well thought out in terms of design. It's reasonably clear and easy what to click to get the info that I'm after - and that the pages are laid out clearly. My issue is still with the functionality.

People aren't going to stumble across the site in isolation. A new visitor is probably looking for dance classes, and has arrived there from Google, or a directory like UK-Jive. OK... so there isn't the "Mo'Jive is ...an exciting blend of salsa fused with jive with a touch of oregano..." blurb that we know and love from so many of the MJ sites. :wink:

But, say, I was that visitor...

Aha! A website. Straight in. No fannying about, pressing "click here to enter site". Fab. I like that.

My eyes are immediately drawn to the vouchers. Oooh! Money off! (Something I want! My attention is grabbed.) :D And, next to it is a venue, time & date. Sadly - it's not a link (but we've covered that one before!). But I press it, and I can print off the vouchers.

So - what's it about? What is this Mo'jive of which I've heard nothing.... Aha!

A "New to Mo'jive" button. That's me! That seems quite straight forward & I know what to do. I've not lost interest yet.

Ooops. Pressed it. Music starts up! :blush: Good thing I'm not in the office. Still... it looks fun. I'm interested. Where can I learn? Sadly the info under the video doesn't help. So I press the Classes button. It's one of your sub menu pop-ups. :wink: That's OK... By selecting Overview, I know what to expect from the evening.

I'm sold. Money off, and what seems to be a fun dance. Where can I learn? I desire to learn! Oooh... there's a classes information button. I'll press that!

Aha! Classes. Tells me the times at the top. Tells me the venues and days. Fab. However... I need to know where to go. Ach! It's that text that looks like it should be a link, but isn't. :sad: However, it does tell me what to press to get directions.

Click "Venue Map".

Ooops. I think I broke it. It says "stopped" in the bottom left of my screen. Eeek. Now none of my Firefox windows work. I'll have to restart! Curse you, Mo'jive! :tears: And I haven't got to the action bit of printing out the voucher. But if the site had worked, I would have.

I think the design meets your aims - but it's the delivery we both have issues with. As I originally said - "Pretty, but it's a shame it doesn't work".

:) anyone else want to volunteer such a walkthrough for other jive related sites ? it should be a laugh :)

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Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

:) anyone else want to volunteer such a walkthrough for other jive related sites ? it should be a laugh :)

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I'd love to do the Ceroc HQ one, but I haven't got the time! :D

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Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

:) anyone else want to volunteer such a walkthrough for other jive related sites ? it should be a laugh :)

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py to put mine forward. It's only a temp site though till i get to work on a propper one.

Smooth Modern Jive

The trouble with experts is they think their opinion is fact. :)

The Mojive site is one of the best jive sites out there, and I say that loathing the use of flash.
Even I, also a professional web programmer when required :) can see that is a good site. Yes, there are things that could be improved. There are ALWAYS things that could be improved and if you start to look for them, you find them.

So I give, what is admittedly is my local franchise, kudos for at least one of the better efforts out there.

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Originally Posted by Lou

Click "Venue Map".

Ooops. I think I broke it. It says "stopped" in the bottom left of my screen. Eeek. Now none of my Firefox windows work. I'll have to restart! Curse you,

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Works 100% fine for me in firefox, prolly a local problem on your comp.

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Originally Posted by TA Guy

The trouble with experts is they think their opinion is fact. :)

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Nah - experts still acknowledge that it's their opinion. However, the difference is that it's well informed opinion. :wink:

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The Mojive site is one of the best jive sites out there

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No one is disagreeing there! :D

Sorry if my comments offended you. It was meant to be honest feedback & as the thread was in the geek section, I subconsciously turned off my fluffy filter. :blush: But, to be fair, I wasn't as scathing as Stray. :D

BTW... sorry Lee - I'm happy to look at your site later, if no one else has commented beforehand. Just a bit busy at the mo - shouldn't really be doing this!

p.s. A local occurance did contribute to the problem. I checked and my ASDL connection had dropped & reconnected whilst I was browsing. However, these things happen and I wouldn't have expected the Mo'jive site to react like that & lock up all my firefox windows. That's the trouble with complex stuff - it can react in ways you wouldn't expect.

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Originally Posted by TA Guy

The trouble with experts is they think their opinion is fact. :)

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Very true. Of course - sometimes we're right ;)

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Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

py to put mine forward. It's only a temp site though till i get to work on a propper one.

Smooth Modern Jive

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As a dance flyer in web page format, it's great :)

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Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe

As a dance flyer in web page format, it's great :)

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Just speaking as a user, I actually like that side of it - emphasis on the content and not how many animated mouseoever effects can fit onto one page.

I don't like the paint splodge design: it may be subliminal, but it makes me think that Lee's venues are going to be very "scout hut" rather than ballroom. I know it's de rigueur these days for websites to have a fixed width, but with so much of the right taken up by the splodge, the content colum does feel excessively narrow.

There seem to be quite a few spelling mistakes ("comming" being particularly glaring) - the site would benefit from a proofreader. There's a broken link on the FAQ page as well.

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Originally Posted by Lou

Sorry if my comments offended you.

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None taken :)


Sometimes the forest can't be seen for the trees :)

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Originally Posted by David Franklin

but it makes me think that Lee's venues are going to be very "scout hut" rather than ballroom.

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Yes Spot on! But I have seen worse - To be fair there are very few good dance venues in the area and the best ones all have well established classes running already. Unless he tries to push someone else out he has to make do with what is left. The area the venue is in is not the best either, so lock up your armoured car if you are going.

There are only two good (Class or Dance) venues in Hastings, two in Bexhill, two in Eastbourne one in Battle, other than school halls.

I this case perhaps we should not judge a book by it's cover...if the teaching and music it is going to be a good as he promises then the other four local MJ organisers should watch their backs.

Perhaps Lee is going to become the king of SWING in Hastings, this could be his first stop towards World domination..:worthy:

SPROGGS.

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Originally Posted by SPROGGS

Perhaps Lee is going to become the king of SWING in Hastings, this could be his first stop towards World domination..:worthy:

SPROGGS.

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Learnt NC2Step off the King of Swing. :wink:

Venues around here are abit naff. This one is ok'ish. Fair size. Sprung floor. Air con'd and the biggest bonus, 3K odd of lighting and sound system. Great for keeping starting costs down low.

When I re-do the website, I aim to have a members system where people will put in their membership card number and be able to see a video of the demo for the lessons they have been to.

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Originally Posted by TA Guy

Sometimes the forest can't be seen for the trees :)

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And sometimes, people forget what forests consist of :waycool:

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Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

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Welcome to Mo'jive.com &copy is the best one I have come across.

What should be included in an MJ website?

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My advertising advisor said that marketing is what gets thrown away. He was talking about ads & fliers, but I think it is relevant to web sites.

If someone who does not know about your product sees your ad/flier/site they have to look at it before they discard it or read it. In that instant you want them to identify your brand and recognise its relevance. They should see your brand name, logo, colour scheme and layout, and get an idea of the business that you are in both in text and in an image.

Your ad has succeeded in its initial purpose if some viewers can just glimpse it and discard it knowing that it is not relevant to them.

On the other side of the coin, when someone asks them about dance classes in the area they should first think of "Mo'Jive", even though they have no interest at all in dance classes.

e.g. Who cannot name a double-glazing company?

On the home page I would want at least to see "Dance classes" writ large, and a simple, quick loading, animation showing the dance.

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Originally Posted by Lee Bartholomew

py to put mine forward. It's only a temp site though till i get to work on a propper one.

Smooth Modern Jive

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Nice site. Crisp and to the point. Typography is good with the close kerning, and yellow is the colour of the month. Not sure about the pink though and the splodges are slightly dated, but gives the site energy. Would be better with the logo at least, and preferably the menu, to the left.

Essential would be a video on the homepage, showing what smooth jive looks like.

A promising start. Keep it simple, ordered and graphic.

Trust me, I'm a designer...