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View Full Version : Dance Competitions! What do u feel about them?



Patrick
15th-October-2006, 11:00 AM
With Brit Rock now in the past, my thoughts are on -

1. "Why am I drawn to dance competitions?" and
2. "Why are most dancers apparently not interested, or even scared of them?"

We didn't go to Brit Rock in the end, even though we were entered. My dance partner felt she wasn't ready, and that has rather shaken my confidence for the time being. Hers too perhaps. An example of why competitions may sometimes do more harm than good?

What are your thoughts on the merits or otherwise of modern jive competitions, at national or local level?

My best wishes to all who enter the competitions, all who support them, and to everyone else too.

Patrick :flower:

Blueshoes
15th-October-2006, 11:46 AM
With Brit Rock now in the past, my thoughts are on -

1. "Why am I drawn to dance competitions?"



Maybe it's something in my makeup, I don't see dance as purely social, as a dancer I want to be as good as I can be.

That doesn't mean I'll ever star on Strictly dance fever or be invited to perform privately in front of the queen, I know I have my limits. But I would like to know how to spin properly, how to interpret the music better, how to lead to the best of my ability and make the overall dance experience better for both me and the lady I'm dancing with at the time.

Normal progression just doesn't allow for this. I'll never learn these things simply by attending class nights, going to freestyles and doing workshops (at least not the sort of workshops I've been to in the past).

Competitions make you think about what you're doing. Things you would never usually think of start to come into the process; I know this moves feels OK but what does it LOOK like? I don't want to make mistakes in competition, why does this move go wrong 20% of the time, what am I doing wrong? What is it this guy over there is doing that it makes me want to watch him? Why do I fall over so often?

Most of the answers lie in that I jumped into this thing half cocked and never learnt the basics, or asked myself why I was doing things. I just did as I was shown and developed a multitude of bad habits. Preparing for competition makes me confront a lot of questions which when answered will make me a better dancer, that's why I'm going in for them.



And I want to beat the pants off everyone else of course ;).

David Bailey
15th-October-2006, 12:08 PM
What are your thoughts on the merits or otherwise of modern jive competitions, at national or local level?
There have been dozens of threads about this area (mostly started by Gus I reckon :na: )

But to recap my views:
Merits:

Good incentive to practise
Feeling of achievement
Better dancing technique
Excuse to buy posh frocks
Fame, glory, etc.


Otherwise:

Depression, worry, anxiety, stress, etc.
Focus on visuals rather than feeling
Focus on one partner rather than many
No-one knows what MJ is, therefore always controversy
Takes time away from dancing

Patrick
15th-October-2006, 12:13 PM
Maybe it's something in my makeup, I don't see dance as purely social, as a dancer I want to be as good as I can be.

That doesn't mean I'll ever star on Strictly dance fever or be invited to perform privately in front of the queen, I know I have my limits. But I would like to know how to spin properly, how to interpret the music better, how to lead to the best of my ability and make the overall dance experience better for both me and the lady I'm dancing with at the time.

Normal progression just doesn't allow for this. I'll never learn these things simply by attending class nights, going to freestyles and doing workshops (at least not the sort of workshops I've been to in the past).

Competitions make you think about what you're doing. Things you would never usually think of start to come into the process; I know this moves feels OK but what does it LOOK like? I don't want to make mistakes in competition, why does this move go wrong 20% of the time, what am I doing wrong? What is it this guy over there is doing that it makes me want to watch him? Why do I fall over so often?

Most of the answers lie in that I jumped into this thing half cocked and never learnt the basics, or asked myself why I was doing things. I just did as I was shown and developed a multitude of bad habits. Preparing for competition makes me confront a lot of questions which when answered will make me a better dancer, that's why I'm going in for them.

And I want to beat the pants off everyone else of course ;).

.............. :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Me too! You saved me a lot of effort if I'd tried to explain all that right now.

Thank you Mr Blue. :respect: :respect: :respect: :respect:

Patrick :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

(Psst, have you also noticed, as u get better quickly, the ladies can be very impressed. It is very nice to be appreciated!

And I can really enjoy and appreciate dancing with a good partner now, to a degree I didn't get before I started comps. I know that we as a couple have had a much better, completely different experience than I used to get. Pure bliss sometimes.)

Daydreaming Diva
15th-October-2006, 12:16 PM
With Brit Rock now in the past, my thoughts are on -

I'm cheesed off. I just spent a long time typing a reply to this thread and when I pressed preview I seemed to lose it. :angry:

Any idea how it can be retrieved?

Patrick
15th-October-2006, 12:28 PM
[QUOTE=Patrick;292478]With Brit Rock now in the past, my thoughts are on -

I'm cheesed off. I just spent a long time typing a reply to this thread and when I pressed preview I seemed to lose it. :angry:

Any idea how it can be retrieved?

Its happened 2 me 2 :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Try pressing 'Back' button until, hopefully u reach wot u typed. Then copy it b4 posting!

Nessiemonster
15th-October-2006, 12:32 PM
I've not yet entered a competition, though would like to. Two problems for me: 1. No partner! 2. I'm actually not that competitive! :blush:

So why would I want to do it?? Because I think it would be fun and it would challenge my dancing. It would enable to develop new skills in dancing and help improve my confidence.

I'm not really into trying to beat other people (so probably wouldn't do that well in competition!), but I do want to be the best that *I* can be. In a competition sense that would be both for myself and for my partner. With the right partner, that would be amazing! :grin:

And no, one mustn't get so caught up in trying to win that one forgets to dance with feeling - without feeling my dancing is dire!

Daydreaming Diva
15th-October-2006, 12:40 PM
[QUOTE=Daydreaming Diva;292507]

Its happened 2 me 2 :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Try pressing 'Back' button until, hopefully u reach wot u typed. Then copy it b4 posting!

Tried that over and over - zilch!! :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears:

Thanks for trying though. :flower:

Patrick
15th-October-2006, 12:44 PM
There have been dozens of threads about this area (mostly started by Gus I reckon :na: )

But to recap my views:
Merits:

Good incentive to practise
Feeling of achievement
Better dancing technique
Excuse to buy posh frocks
Fame, glory, etc.


Otherwise:

Depression, worry, anxiety, stress, etc.
Focus on visuals rather than feeling
Focus on one partner rather than many
No-one knows what MJ is, therefore always controversy
Takes time away from dancing


Very nice summary David. :cheers: And have a :hug: , it seems to be more acceptable these days!

I haven't fallen into the "Focus on visuals rather than feeling" trap yet. I assumed that if the dance felt wonderful (as it sometimes does), it must look wonderful too. :innocent: I recently saw myself on video for the first time! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: It may have felt good, but I looked shockingly bad, in my own view. Funnily enough, others watching the same dance on video thought I looked fine.... go figure. :confused: :confused:

Having lit the blue touchpaper, I'm now off to do some non-competition dancing at the Bromsgrove T. L8R!

Patrick

Patrick
15th-October-2006, 12:51 PM
[QUOTE=Patrick;292514]

Tried that over and over - zilch!! :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears:

Thanks for trying though. :flower:

Did you check the "Remember me" box when you logged on? If not you can get these problems, as you get logged out before you post. :mad: No way to recover, AFAIK.

I would really like to hear your thoughts, if you can regain your composure! If it's a labour of love, it's worth editing it offline first, or at least copy your text into the clipboard before posting, as a fallback if it goes wrong. (Highlight text, then Control-C)

I have been there, 5am after taking 1 hour to compose the post of a lifetime. Couldn't remember what I said after I lost it. But I know it was great!

Have a nice day.... :hug: :hug: :hug:

Patrick

Nessiemonster
15th-October-2006, 12:53 PM
I recently saw myself on video for the first time! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: It may have felt good, but I looked shockingly bad, in my own view. Funnily enough, others watching the same dance on video thought I looked fine.... go figure. :confused: :confused:

I think this is because when we see ourselves on video (or in a photo etc) we are primarily focused on how we look as an individual. We notice all the things about ourselves that we really don't like, and focus down to the tiny detail of our own performance. We don't tend to pay so much attention to the context around us.

Others will see the big picture - the context of the whole dance. They won't notice that "I do this funny thing with my hand", or "I stick my bum out too much", or whatever. They'll notice the whole dance, and view it far more objectively, as it should be viewed.

Watching a video of yourself dancing can be a great tool to help improve those niggly things (especially if aiming for a performance), but is not the be all and end all of your dancing abilities. It's always important to balance that against others comments, and definitely how it feels!

(As an aside, I recently had the 'pleasure' of watching a video of myself dancing some salsa. I haven't done much salsa for years. I enjoy it because it feels good, but had the shock of my life when I saw the video and realised I actually Looked Good doing it!!! :eek: :grin:

Mind you, it was only on a digital camera screen, so I couldn't pick out the niggly detail. Probably just as well!!! :rofl: )

Magic Hans
15th-October-2006, 01:07 PM
There have been dozens of threads about this area (mostly started by Gus I reckon :na: )

But to recap my views:
Merits:

Good incentive to practise
Feeling of achievement
Better dancing technique
Excuse to buy posh frocks
Fame, glory, etc.


Otherwise:

Depression, worry, anxiety, stress, etc.
Focus on visuals rather than feeling
Focus on one partner rather than many
No-one knows what MJ is, therefore always controversy
Takes time away from dancing




Personally, I'd add a couple of things to this

On the plus side, there might be 'Recognition by peers'. It (generally) means alot to someone to be praised/rewarded/recognised by those we deeply respect.

On the neg side, side might be entirely sick and tired of proving their talent or worth to somone else .... we seem to have a life time of tests and targets that start at school (sometime pre-school)

ducasi
15th-October-2006, 01:22 PM
I've not yet entered a competition, though would like to. Two problems for me: 1. No partner! 2. I'm actually not that competitive! :blush:

So why would I want to do it?? Because I think it would be fun and it would challenge my dancing. It would enable to develop new skills in dancing and help improve my confidence.

I'm not really into trying to beat other people (so probably wouldn't do that well in competition!), but I do want to be the best that *I* can be. In a competition sense that would be both for myself and for my partner. With the right partner, that would be amazing! :grin:

And no, one mustn't get so caught up in trying to win that one forgets to dance with feeling - without feeling my dancing is dire!
:yeah: (Except that I found myself a partner and entered the Scottish Ceroc Champs back in September.)

The most worthwhile part of the experience was regular practice with a partner. Looking back, the competition was almost an incidental detail compared to that.

In the poll I've said I'd only do "local competitions". That's not strictly true. I wouldn't travel just to do a competition, but if I was travelling anyway, I might decide to compete also. (If that makes any sense?)

MartinHarper
15th-October-2006, 02:16 PM
I think this is because when we see ourselves on video (or in a photo etc) we are primarily focused on how we look as an individual. ... Others will see the big picture - the context of the whole dance.

Plausible, but I prefer the luvvie theory.
On which note, I suppose "objective feedback" should get added to the pro section.

TA Guy
15th-October-2006, 02:33 PM
There are two reasons why I don't enter dance competitions...

The major one is I did a lot of sport competitively in my younger days and I have no desire to re-enter that lifestyle.
The minor one is; no way am I paying to have some other buggers hog the dance floor when I want to dance :)

BRING BACK THE CHARITY MARATHONS INSTEAD !!!

Daydreaming Diva
15th-October-2006, 03:21 PM
Thanks Patrick. No, I never check the 'Remember me' box, but will do in future. It's usually OK, but this time (long meaningful post) it mattered. Feeling really miserable - everything seems to be going wrong today so thanks for the hug. Couldn't blow me a few kisses as well could you? :blush: Think I'm on a low after the most wonderful evening on Friday at Hove before the Saturday comps, which I didn't go to in the end.

Will try and summon up the spirit to give you my thoughts later.

David Bailey
15th-October-2006, 04:24 PM
Very nice summary David. :cheers: And have a :hug: , it seems to be more acceptable these days!
Rep speaks louder than hugs (+ve rep, just in case you were wondering :) )


I haven't fallen into the "Focus on visuals rather than feeling" trap yet.
I don't think it's a "trap" - but that's just one of the things you need to do, to enter competitions. It's all about the visuals, in other words.

Have a look at the "To successfully compete takes" (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9919) and "Why do you compete?" (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4819) threads - they've got more opinions on this area.

Lynn
15th-October-2006, 04:47 PM
The talk of Britrock made me revisit the thread about the year I went along. I was only going to spectate but ended up being talked into entering the intermediates (only for fun, I was a pretty inexperienced dancer at the time). Our practice time probably totalled about 1 1/2 hours (in fact I think we spent more time shopping - which was getting the priorities right!) I had a good day, enjoyed watching some great dancing from people who had clearly put a lot of work into it, was petrified when it was time for me to dance - but it did my confidence good.

For me, I guess it would be like studying - I've done evening courses with qualifications just for the fun of learning. Having a goal and target to aim for. I don't have to be better than everyone else, just aim to be as good as I can be.

Hmm, on reflection I'd rather like to have another go at a competition some day. Shortage of local partners though who would be interested.:(

Gordon J Pownall
15th-October-2006, 06:17 PM
If they bring people together, even if just for the freestyle in between which BritRocK did for me this year (amongst other things)...then they are great...

Gadget
15th-October-2006, 08:03 PM
Maybe it's something in my makeup, I don't see dance as purely social, as a dancer I want to be as good as I can be. As a dancer, point to anyone who wants to be worse than they can be!? Why does making it a purely social dance exclude the possibility that people don't want to be as good as they can be? Or try to be?


Normal progression just doesn't allow for this. I'll never learn these things simply by attending class nights, going to freestyles and doing workshops (at least not the sort of workshops I've been to in the past).
"Normal progression"? Do you mean what's taught from stage, what you have lerned from the stage, or what you could learn from the stage? Why won't you ever learn stuff from watching the stage and dancing with people in a normal class/workshop?

I think that the only void I find in current teaching is pointing out areas where people could improve... or more appropriately, pupils picking up on these areas. What to do to improve is not that important: if the pupil identifies what they want to work on, then they will find feedback on it, ask people about it and watch for things to help them improve it.
If you approach a class with the concept of ignoring the actual moves that are being taught, and seeing what else is there - you can pick up quite a bit.


Competitions make you think about what you're doing. Things you would never usually think of start to come into the process;...Really? The only thing I would think on differently on for practice to a competition would be presentation to an outside audience... And I don't dance for them: I dance for me and my partner.

As Ducassi points out, the biggest improvement comes from having someone to spend some one-on-one time with and give direct feedback - the actual 'competition' is only there for motivation.


What do I feel about dance competitions?
I think that MJ is primarily a social dance and the best measure of success is being asked to dance. Putting that into a competition environment would translate to the person who could adapt to different music and different partners the best. Someone who wins or is placed in a rotational 'Lucky Dip' would be the only competition result I would be wholey impressed by.

Anything else can be won with single mindedness, hard work and time/money dedicated to it. In isolation. It's this isolation that (for me) is against the whole MJ ethos and what most competitions stifle. When people are practicing, they are practicing how to dance and how to look good - at the exclusion of the environment they are trying to represent.

Competitions - evil. Weekenders - heavenly. {IMHO}

dance cat
15th-October-2006, 10:43 PM
As a dancer, point to anyone who wants to be worse than they can be!? Why does making it a purely social dance exclude the possibility that people don't want to be as good as they can be? Or try to be?


"Normal progression"? Do you mean what's taught from stage, what you have lerned from the stage, or what you could learn from the stage? Why won't you ever learn stuff from watching the stage and dancing with people in a normal class/workshop?

I think that the only void I find in current teaching is pointing out areas where people could improve... or more appropriately, pupils picking up on these areas. What to do to improve is not that important: if the pupil identifies what they want to work on, then they will find feedback on it, ask people about it and watch for things to help them improve it.
If you approach a class with the concept of ignoring the actual moves that are being taught, and seeing what else is there - you can pick up quite a bit.

Really? The only thing I would think on differently on for practice to a competition would be presentation to an outside audience... And I don't dance for them: I dance for me and my partner.

As Ducassi points out, the biggest improvement comes from having someone to spend some one-on-one time with and give direct feedback - the actual 'competition' is only there for motivation.


What do I feel about dance competitions?
I think that MJ is primarily a social dance and the best measure of success is being asked to dance. Putting that into a competition environment would translate to the person who could adapt to different music and different partners the best. Someone who wins or is placed in a rotational 'Lucky Dip' would be the only competition result I would be wholey impressed by.

Anything else can be won with single mindedness, hard work and time/money dedicated to it. In isolation. It's this isolation that (for me) is against the whole MJ ethos and what most competitions stifle. When people are practicing, they are practicing how to dance and how to look good - at the exclusion of the environment they are trying to represent.

Competitions - evil. Weekenders - heavenly. {IMHO}

:clap: :clap: Hoorah for that man! I really don't see how taking part in competitions makes you a better dancer other than if you have private lessons or spend hours and hours practising- but then that's no guarantee of improvement. To me lessons if you take part in them seriously mean you improve. Add to that dancing with lots of different dancers in freestyles and weekenders and bothering to dance with teachers in weekly lessons.
I don't understand the interminable fascination with freestyles in the Northwest having, it seems, monthly competitions which just mean the paying dancer gets even less time on the dance floor.
I want to dance because I like dancing and have absolutely no interest in competitions or cabaret. Can I propose something novel-more time for dancing please at freestyles.:wink:
(And yes I am ranting and yes I know we're all entitled to our own opinion and there are people who don't think competitions are evil. It's been a long day)

David Bailey
15th-October-2006, 11:11 PM
:clap: :clap: Hoorah for that man! I really don't see how taking part in competitions makes you a better dancer other than if you have private lessons or spend hours and hours practising- but then that's no guarantee of improvement. To me lessons if you take part in them seriously mean you improve. Add to that dancing with lots of different dancers in freestyles and weekenders and bothering to dance with teachers in weekly lessons.
I think, from what people have said, that the competitions act as a very good incentive to improve your dancing - on that whole principle of how being hanged tomorrow morning focusses your mind a lot. Although most people don't volunteer to be hanged :)

However, that doesn't mean you can't have other incentives, or that it's the best method. Lots of practice, lots of private lessons, lots of learning other forms, and lots of feedback from everyone involved - that seems to be the main way of improving yourself.


(And yes I am ranting and yes I know we're all entitled to our own opinion and there are people who don't think competitions are evil. It's been a long day)
Hah, that's not a rant - you have much to learn young Cat person :)

straycat
15th-October-2006, 11:44 PM
I'm with Gadget on this one. Aside from everything else, I am chiefly a social dancer, and I want my lead, my connection, my musicality to be as good as I can possibly get them. These things are not the most important criteria for competition... and to focus on what I'd need to compete well, I'd have to change my priorities.

As for the 'Normal progression' thing - I think there's a limit to how good you can get at anything without increasing the effort you put in. If you want to be good enough to compete - sure - you need to put a lot more effort in on the right things. I have to do the same to achieve what I want - what you need is a focus - and competition can provide that. My own focus is simply the desire to improve. I do specifically seek out ways of learning what I want, that I couldn't get by just going to regular classes - but I personally don't need the lure of competition to motivate me to do that.

MartinHarper
16th-October-2006, 12:13 AM
A long while back, there was a post about being "as good a dancer as I can be". It'd involve sacrifices. Sacrificing money by reducing work hours and spending money on private lessons and good workshops. Sacrificing other hobbies, and time spent chilling. No TV/internet. Plus, taking up hobbies that support dance that might not be as fun. Pilates; music theory; martial arts; keep-fit; choreography. Seems like hard work. So, honestly, I guess I don't want to be the best dancer I can be.

Sure, there's nothing much competitions give you that you can't do as a social dancer. I could get private lessons. I could attend workshops. I could spend time practicing. Still, possibility is not reality. Gus talks about the best competition dancers practicing "at least 5 hours a week". I don't do that. Do any social dancers do that? I dunno.

TheTramp
16th-October-2006, 01:17 AM
Gus talks about the best competition dancers practicing "at least 5 hours a week". I don't do that. Do any social dancers do that? I dunno.

I've never practised specifically for a competition (in the UK, I did put in a few practises for the Brisbane comp, but only cos Simone made me!). I dance way more than 5 hours on an average week. But I don't look upon it as practice! :rolleyes:

Baruch
16th-October-2006, 07:45 AM
Aside from everything else, I am chiefly a social dancer, and I want my lead, my connection, my musicality to be as good as I can possibly get them. These things are not the most important criteria for competition... and to focus on what I'd need to compete well, I'd have to change my priorities.
I'd say that lead/follow, connection and musicality are the most vital elements for competition. Without those elements being solid, nothing else will work properly.

Personally, I want to be a good social dancer and a good competitive dancer. I don't see any contradiction or conflict between the two.

straycat
16th-October-2006, 09:02 AM
I'd say that lead/follow, connection and musicality are the most vital elements for competition. Without those elements being solid, nothing else will work properly.

I like the theory :wink:

After watching quite a few comps, it became pretty clear to me that the competitors that I liked the most, who inspired me the most, were most often not the ones who seemed to catch the eye of the judges.

I love watching people mess around, playing with the music - and I love doing the same. To compete, doing that simply doesn't suffice - no matter how high a level you do it to.

David Bailey
16th-October-2006, 10:00 AM
A long while back, there was a post about being "as good a dancer as I can be". It'd involve sacrifices. Sacrificing money by reducing work hours and spending money on private lessons and good workshops. Sacrificing other hobbies, and time spent chilling. No TV/internet. Plus, taking up hobbies that support dance that might not be as fun. Pilates; music theory; martial arts; keep-fit; choreography. Seems like hard work. So, honestly, I guess I don't want to be the best dancer I can be.
Very good points. If you were really serious, you'd be studying dance full-time, including anatomy, physiology, probably physics (momentum etc.). Most of us aren't that serious.


Sure, there's nothing much competitions give you that you can't do as a social dancer. I could get private lessons. I could attend workshops. I could spend time practicing. Still, possibility is not reality. Gus talks about the best competition dancers practicing "at least 5 hours a week". I don't do that. Do any social dancers do that? I dunno.
At most, I practise about 1-2 hours (AT) a week, not including classes.

David Bailey
16th-October-2006, 10:05 AM
I'd say that lead/follow, connection and musicality are the most vital elements for competition. Without those elements being solid, nothing else will work properly.
Probably best to discuss this on the "To successfully compete takes (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9919)" thread?


Personally, I want to be a good social dancer and a good competitive dancer. I don't see any contradiction or conflict between the two.
I think there's a lot of overlap in the skillset requirements for both - but I also think that there are specific and exclusive skillsets for each.

For example, focussing on competitions won't teach you how to adjust your style to that of a new partner, and focussing on social dancing won't teach you how to present yourself visually.

So you certainly can be a good social dancer and a good competitive dancer - but if you're good at one, you may not automatically be as good at the other. Both take work and practice.

TheTramp
16th-October-2006, 10:55 AM
For example, focussing on competitions won't teach you how to adjust your style to that of a new partner

Unless you're focussing on entering DWAS! :rolleyes:

David Bailey
16th-October-2006, 11:13 AM
Unless you're focussing on entering DWAS! :rolleyes:
Does anyone ever do that? If so, how - how do you practise for a DWAS?

Patrick
16th-October-2006, 11:20 AM
Does anyone ever do that? If so, how - how do you practise for a DWAS?

Well, derrrr.... :wink: :wink: I guess dancing with lots of strangers might help a bit! A bit like one does all the time... hence a bit pointless IMHO :wink: :wink: :wink: (The DWAS category that is. Dancing with strangers is challenging and can be fun)

At the moment I prefer to dance (but not exclusively) with partners I know I have a connection with. Dancing with too many disparate styles (to put it politely) sets back my learning, and sometimes hurts! :tears:

PS I did try to rep you the other day, but it wouldn't accept it. I'll have another go..

TheTramp
16th-October-2006, 11:34 AM
Does anyone ever do that? If so, how - how do you practise for a DWAS?

Learn how to adjust your style to that of a new partner... :rolleyes:

Baruch
16th-October-2006, 11:40 AM
After watching quite a few comps, it became pretty clear to me that the competitors that I liked the most, who inspired me the most, were most often not the ones who seemed to catch the eye of the judges.

That's just as likely to be due to the personal tastes of the judges as anything else.


I love watching people mess around, playing with the music - and I love doing the same. To compete, doing that simply doesn't suffice - no matter how high a level you do it to.
True - but it can help.

I'm sure it's no coincidence that my favourite partners to dance with socially have nearly all competed, some at the highest levels. All of them enjoy playing around with the music and have fantastic musicality.

David Bailey
16th-October-2006, 11:53 AM
Learn how to adjust your style to that of a new partner... :rolleyes:
Nope - that's what you want to achieve. Obviously.

What I want to know is, how can you get there - apart from the obvious answer of dancing with lots of different people.

In other words, what's a good way of self-improvement, that doesn't depend on having a (regular) dance partner?

Patrick
16th-October-2006, 11:55 AM
Thanks Patrick. No, I never check the 'Remember me' box, but will do in future. It's usually OK, but this time (long meaningful post) it mattered. Feeling really miserable - everything seems to be going wrong today so thanks for the hug. Couldn't blow me a few kisses as well could you? :blush: Think I'm on a low after the most wonderful evening on Friday at Hove before the Saturday comps, which I didn't go to in the end.

Will try and summon up the spirit to give you my thoughts later.

Good Morning Daydreaming Diva! :D :kiss: :love: :kiss: :love:

At least you went to the pre comp dance! Though I did end up dancing in a night club with friends till the early hours, which was great fun. Were you planning to be in the competition?

I'm feeling really miserable too - everything seems to be going wrong, oh, this year really! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: (Well you have to laugh, sometimes) Look out for PM.

Patrick :flower:

Blueshoes
16th-October-2006, 12:16 PM
As a dancer, point to anyone who wants to be worse than they can be!? Why does making it a purely social dance exclude the possibility that people don't want to be as good as they can be? Or try to be?

Of course many non competitors want to be good at what they're doing, what I'm saying is that for me competition forces me to confront my particular demons. Without competition I would blindly carry on doing what I'm doing, in many cases not even knowing that I'm doing things wrong.


"Normal progression"? Do you mean what's taught from stage, what you have learned from the stage, or what you could learn from the stage? Why won't you ever learn stuff from watching the stage and dancing with people in a normal class/workshop?

OK, so can you spin properly? Spot so you can do multiple spins without going off balance? Unless you're a complete natural (or related to Tony Blair) you'll have had to learn to do this, and that's not possible just from watching people. You have to be taught how to do it by going back to basics, which aren't taught in lessons or in most workshops.


The only thing I would think on differently for practice to a competition would be presentation to an outside audience... And I don't dance for them: I dance for me and my partner.

Nearly all of us dance for our partners, those that don't aren't really worth dancing with. And it's just because of this that I want to be better than I am at the moment. Doing competition makes me think about what I'm doing so I can improve and make the overall experience better for me and my partner.



I'm sure it's no coincidence that my favourite partners to dance with socially have nearly all competed, some at the highest levels. All of them enjoy playing around with the music and have fantastic musicality.

Thank you Baruch, summed my points up nicely there :grin:

Patrick
16th-October-2006, 12:39 PM
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTramp
Learn how to adjust your style to that of a new partner...


Nope - that's what you want to achieve. Obviously.

What I want to know is, how can you get there - apart from the obvious answer of dancing with lots of different people.

In other words, what's a good way of self-improvement, that doesn't depend on having a (regular) dance partner?

I think Paul F has got there if I recall some recent posts. Perhaps he could help here.

For me the situation is this. I can lead more confidently, and adapt to different partners, when I know the moves/style I am trying to adopt very well.

As I am still very much in the learning phase (14 months), I find I have a jumble of half learned styles/moves sloshing around in my head. To learn them better, I prefer to either:


Dance 4 or 5 tracks in a row with a partner I get on with well with. By the 5th track I have usually achieved something I never managed before. Including making up new moves...

Ask someone I get on well with to go through some move/style specifically until I get it, at least a bit better.

Once I have learned it pretty well, I am much more capable of leading a 'stranger' who may be unfamiliar with the move/style, and may have a style which is working against what I am trying to do.

I find if I dance one track each with different people all night, (especially if lots of beginners/arm jerkers), not only do I learn nothing, I find I have unlearned lots of things I was close to getting. I feel like I am going backwards. I do get a lot of satisfaction from successfully leading beginners who are responsive and appreciative, and often that's how I find new 'preferred' partners.

Perhaps when I am more skilled/confident I can get more out of leading lots of strangers. At the moment, each dance I do with someone I don't click with is a lost opportunity to practise the stuff I have recently been taught.

Which is a long winded way of saying, practising for competitions has improved my dancing dramatically, dancing with strangers has done very little (apart from finding new partners I connect well with). And dancing with experienced competitors is usually a dream, everything just 'works'. I find myself doing things I've never done before.

Patrick :flower:

PS Oh of course, it helps to have a plan. If there is some move/style I want to improve, I make a mental (or actual) note of it before a class/freestyle, and try it out as much as possible that night. But if its something I'm finding tricky, I can't do it with partners who are inexeperienced or don't follow well.

Gadget
16th-October-2006, 01:18 PM
OK, so can you spin properly? Spot so you can do multiple spins without going off balance? "properly?" I can spin. Without going off-balance. At the speed I want. Stopping in the correct orientation. On either foot. In either direction. Perhaps even double spin... Into tripples and my balance starts to go. I don't spot (but neither do ice-skaters).
As to "properly", I don't know what that means? - I spin on the ball of my foot with knees slightly bent, weight committed to the one foot, posture is OK, feet are together during the spin, arms are controlled, finish the rotation before stepping again. Ask a ballet tutor and it would be apalling. Ask an AT tango teacher and it would be poor, probably without style as well. Ask a normal muggle and it's spot on.


Unless you're a complete natural (or related to Tony Blair) you'll have had to learn to do this, and that's not possible just from watching people. You have to be taught how to do it by going back to basics, which aren't taught in lessons or in most workshops.
Yes, I have had to learn how.
I've been to at least one workshop that was soley 'sips and turns' And at least three others where a good proportion of time was spent on spinning and turning. I've been to begenner and intermediate workshops where quite a bit of time was spent on spinning and turning {In fact I think that my very first beginner workshop spent quite a bit of time on it}. In the 'essentials' class, every other one has a turn or spin in it. Every time I lead a lady spin/push spin/ceroc spin, I can practice my own spinning. Any time I transfer places with my partner, I can practice my own turns.

What can I learn from watching people? Foot placement, body positioning, timeing, styling, things to avoid, ... "back to basics" - I don't think I've ever left basics. :sick:


Doing competition makes me think about what I'm doing so I can improve and make the overall experience better for me and my partner.Dancing with people makes me want to do that. Hearing followers say X or Y is a good dancer makes me want to find out why and learn how to put it into my dancing. Seeing dancers connect and move to the music makes me want to learn how. You may need the motivation of a competition, but I see inspiration every time I dance.

Practice, develop, compete, but please don't get blinkered into thinking that it's only those who compete who are driven to improve and/or are good dancers :flower:

Gus
16th-October-2006, 02:04 PM
I'm sure it's no coincidence that my favourite partners to dance with socially have nearly all competed, some at the highest levels. All of them enjoy playing around with the music and have fantastic musicality.And I'm sure its no coincidence that some of the worst dnaces I've had in the last 6 months have been with dancers who have also been serious competitiors. Its been said many time sthat though competition can improve your dancing, the need to use choreographed elements can have an extremely detrimental effect of the ability of those dancers to properly 'lead and follow' outside their partnership. IMHO its not cut and dry. Some dancers improve with competition focus, some become worse as social dancers.

Andy McGregor
16th-October-2006, 10:07 PM
I think that you can think too much and talk too much about competitions. Patrick seems to like talking about competitions more than he likes entering them. It seems to me that Patrick rather likes finding reasons why he shouldn't attend a competition he's entered. And he'd like other people to back his decision. This behavior is the territory of psychologists, not dancers.

The decision is simple. If you like competitions you should enter them. If you don't like competitions you should let other people enter them rather than try to put them off.

Me? I like competitions and can't wait to see the Britrock DVD so I can see how it all went :tears:

Gordon J Pownall
17th-October-2006, 01:14 AM
Did someone ask for a psychologist (or Psychotherapist...???)

G...:blush:

Patrick
17th-October-2006, 06:48 AM
Did someone ask for a psychologist (or Psychotherapist...???)

G...:blush:

Hello Gordon!

A neurologist once told me that anyone who goes to see a psychiatrist must need their head examined... :wink: But I expect you've heard that one!

I think psychotherapists have more empathy than either. So who needs their head examined? :D

I think psychology, including dance psychology, is fascinating. Dance psychotherapy could be a growing market... it's murder on the dancefloor!

Can u book me in next week?... :wink:

Patrick :flower:

Patrick
17th-October-2006, 07:34 AM
I think that you can think too much and talk too much about competitions. Patrick seems to like talking about competitions more than he likes entering them. It seems to me that Patrick rather likes finding reasons why he shouldn't attend a competition he's entered. And he'd like other people to back his decision. This behavior is the territory of psychologists, not dancers.

The decision is simple. If you like competitions you should enter them. If you don't like competitions you should let other people enter them rather than try to put them off.

Me? I like competitions and can't wait to see the Britrock DVD so I can see how it all went :tears:

I think this is rather unfair Andy. My enthusiasm for competitions should be obvious from what I've posted. I've entered 4 competitions in less than 4 months. Brit Rock was the first time I didn't turn up, and that was because my partner was too scared to go in the end. If there had been a novice section, she probably would have been OK. Neither of us was interested in DWAS, we wanted to dance with each other, which is why we got together. I am gutted that we missed the competition, I love the excitement, and watching others do their stuff. I owe the rapid progress I've made in the last few months to doing competitions.

I appreciated the advice you gave me a while back, and took up your top tip. I got some excellent private coaching from a top couple at Breeze, which was very worthwhile. Sadly, my partner wasn't there, she hoped I would find a last minute replacement, but I didn't.

I posted this poll, not to score points, but because I am fascinated by the subject, and especially why so many dancers are not interested in or scared of, competitions. The results so far are a great surprise to me. For instance no-one has said that they can't imagine entering a competition. In my experience the vast majority of dancers say they would never enter anything. I expect those on this forum are keener than average, and those not intereseted in competitions haven't bothered to answer the poll.

I admit that my comments about DWAS were rather OTT, I was upset at the time. I apologise. I know that many people enjoy DWAS, and I appreciate your efforts to make it 'fairer' or more exciting in some way. I realise now, having been probed on the subject by an excellent MJ teacher last week, that my bad experience with DWAS is because of the scheduling, rather than the nature of the category itself. It usually comes just before the first round of the Intermediates. Both times I did DWAS, it distracted me from being ready for the Intermediate section, which is what I went for mostly. I think Advanced and higher dancers could more easily cope with this distraction, so put DWAS before their first rounds!

I really do believe there should be a category just for newcomers, as well as, not instead of DWAS. (I only just found out that in some DWAS competitions, you are only allowed to enter if you have never entered any competition before. That would make more sense to me).

Apologies if this is too much talking, I'll get on to preparing for the Midlands Champs soon!

I'd like to see the Brit Rock DVD too. :clap: See my first post in this thread.

Patrick :flower:

Patrick
17th-October-2006, 07:56 AM
I'd like to see the Brit Rock DVD too. :clap: See my first post in this thread.

Patrick :flower:

Oops! I meant first post in the "Brit Rock 2006 - How did it go?" thread.

straycat
17th-October-2006, 08:59 AM
I expect those on this forum are keener than average, and those not intereseted in competitions haven't bothered to answer the poll.


I haven't answered the poll, 'cos I'm a picky git, and there isn't an option matching my precise feelings about competitions :wink:

To wit: I don't usually do competitions, but will on a completely impromptu basis if I happen to be somewhere where a) there's a fairly fun event (DWAS or a fun blues comp or the like), and b) I'm in the right mood.

Reasons are given in earlier posts. :wink:

Gav
17th-October-2006, 05:06 PM
With Brit Rock now in the past, my thoughts are on -

2. "Why are most dancers apparently not interested, or even scared of them?"



I haven't competed yet, but much to my surprise, I've just been invited to enter the Open Jive competition with someone whom I never dreamed would ask little old me! :really:

Had a look at the categories and I don't fit in the Novice category (so she certainly doesn't).
Why should I be scared of competitions?
Well how about because you could be a dancer with 10 months experience up against couples that have been competing together for more than 10 years in theory?
Sounds like a good reason to be scared to me. :eek:

Patrick
18th-October-2006, 04:26 PM
I haven't competed yet, but much to my surprise, I've just been invited to enter the Open Jive competition with someone whom I never dreamed would ask little old me! :really:

Had a look at the categories and I don't fit in the Novice category (so she certainly doesn't).
Why should I be scared of competitions?
Well how about because you could be a dancer with 10 months experience up against couples that have been competing together for more than 10 years in theory?
Sounds like a good reason to be scared to me. :eek:

Thanks Gav. So which is the Open Jive competition then? Don't think I know that one. So don't know the rules. Sometimes you will qualify for a category if one, not necessarily both partners have the relevant (lack of) experience.

I have been completely outclassed in all the competitions I've entered! The gap between getting to the second round and to the final is huge I think. Esp in Intermediates. I wasn't scared of this, knew I would look like a beginner in comparison, but some people are scared. What I am scared of is... (I'm too scared to tell!)

Gav
18th-October-2006, 04:41 PM
Thanks Gav. So which is the Open Jive competition then? Don't think I know that one. So don't know the rules. Sometimes you will qualify for a category if one, not necessarily both partners have the relevant (lack of) experience.

I have been completely outclassed in all the competitions I've entered! The gap between getting to the second round and to the final is huge I think. Esp in Intermediates. I wasn't scared of this, knew I would look like a beginner in comparison, but some people are scared. What I am scared of is... (I'm too scared to tell!)

www.achance2dance.co.uk
Doesn't seem to be as comprehensively organised as CerocChamps, less detailed rules, slightly rough website. but it's been going for a fair few years and is held at the Blackpool Tower Ballroom.

Bless her, she's really keen, but I think it's madness personally.

Andy McGregor
18th-October-2006, 05:27 PM
www.achance2dance.co.uk
Doesn't seem to be as comprehensively organised as CerocChamps, less detailed rules, slightly rough website. but it's been going for a fair few years and is held at the Blackpool Tower Ballroom.The Blackpool Competition is THE one to win, the one to enter and the one to watch. Don't be put off by the website, this is an independent competition run by people who have no other commercial interest in Modern Jive. On the other hand, you might like to consider the Ceroc Champs with this thought in mind - If McDonalds ran a burger making competition whose chefs would be likely to win? And how would you feel if you were an independent burger chef and were considering entering? On the other hand, the Blackpool competition is completely independent.

robd
18th-October-2006, 05:42 PM
On the other hand, you might like to consider the Ceroc Champs with this thought in mind - If McDonalds ran a burger making competition whose chefs would be likely to win?

Hmm. Given some of the decisions at Britrock I am not sure you (and I know you personally weren't on the judging panel there) should be casting aspersions on the judging at other competitions no matter how much I might agree with you.

Andy McGregor
18th-October-2006, 06:09 PM
Hmm. Given some of the decisions at Britrock I am not sure you (and I know you personally weren't on the judging panel there) should be casting aspersions on the judging at other competitions no matter how much I might agree with you.I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the judging decisions of the Ceroc champs (not this time :whistle: ). What I am saying is that a Ceroc championships is likely to judge dancers based on how good they are at dancing the way Ceroc teach - in the same was as a McDonalds sponsored burger making competition would judge against McDonalds benchmarks.

An independent competition is more likely to have a mix of judges. And that is exactly what happenned at Britrock. I didn't see much of the heats as I was mostly hiding in a back room doing the sums to work out who the judges had promoted and where people had placed. Therefore I can't comment on my own opinion of the results. One thing I can tell you is that the judges only agreed on one result. Most of the other decisions were 3 to 2! This means that at least 2 of the judges didn't agree with the results either. But that is what competitions are all about. Its all about the the judges decisions and the judges were a mixed bunch of experts so it's no surprise that other people disagree with the results.

Patrick
18th-October-2006, 06:16 PM
www.achance2dance.co.uk
Doesn't seem to be as comprehensively organised as CerocChamps, less detailed rules, slightly rough website. but it's been going for a fair few years and is held at the Blackpool Tower Ballroom.

Bless her, she's really keen, but I think it's madness personally.

Yes I did wonder. I only know this one as "BLACKPOOL!!!!!" I was going to break it gently to you, but Andy has spilled the beans. It is by reputation THE BIG ONE of the year. I'd only just started Ceroc when it was on this year, so I haven't been. Not even started to think about that one yet. Until now :eek: :eek: :eek: Some people think the Ceroc Champs is the Big One, but I haven't been to that either, so can't really say.

Well there's nothing like starting at the top! I'm sure you will have fun, but I think it works best if you both have similar levels of keeness, especially if one partner is more experienced. If you're not sure you want to do it, tell her now, not later! :tears: :tears: :tears:


The Blackpool Competition is THE one to win, the one to enter and the one to watch.

I guess we agree on this then Andy! The other stuff, I don't know yet. I'd better have a look at the Ceroc Champs DVD I just bought. Will get Brit Rock too.
Patrick :flower:

David Bailey
18th-October-2006, 08:33 PM
But that is what competitions are all about. Its all about the the judges decisions and the judges were a mixed bunch of experts so it's no surprise that other people disagree with the results.
Especially because no-one really knows what Modern Jive is about anyway. Go on, define it - I dare you. I double dare you, in fact. :na:

At least the Ceroc version of MJ is slightly better-defined. To continue your analogy, it's not surprising that the people who are best at making a McDonald's style of burger are the McDonald's employees.

Judging "The Best Burger Ever" would be a damn sight more difficult and controversial - whatever criteria and wieghting you use, someone will disagree.

Baruch
18th-October-2006, 08:43 PM
Judging "The Best Burger Ever" would be a damn sight more difficult and controversial - whatever criteria and wieghting you use, someone will disagree.
As opposed to the other option, where everyone but McDonald's staff would disagree.

David Bailey
18th-October-2006, 08:46 PM
As opposed to the other option, where everyone but McDonald's staff would disagree.
So, hummm, what you're saying is, MJ dance competitions are basically pointless?

Well, could be - I never thought of it that way... :whistle:

:rofl:

Gav
18th-October-2006, 10:04 PM
The Blackpool Competition is THE one to win, the one to enter and the one to watch. Don't be put off by the website, this is an independent competition run by people who have no other commercial interest in Modern Jive. On the other hand, you might like to consider the Ceroc Champs with this thought in mind - If McDonalds ran a burger making competition whose chefs would be likely to win? And how would you feel if you were an independent burger chef and were considering entering? On the other hand, the Blackpool competition is completely independent.

The only thing I'd considered up until now is that she might be slightly unbalanced. Now I'm considering that she's slightly unbalanced and poorly informed too!

If you've joined the forum without telling me, sorry it's true, you're off your chump. :flower:

Andy McGregor
18th-October-2006, 10:14 PM
The only thing I'd considered up until now is that she might be slightly unbalanced. Now I'm considering that she's slightly unbalanced and poorly informed too!

If you've joined the forum without telling me, sorry it's true, you're off your chump. :flower:Did I miss something?:confused:

Gav
18th-October-2006, 10:20 PM
Not really, I did say I thought she was mad to ask me and now I find out that it's a much bigger comp than I had originally thought as well.

Andy McGregor
18th-October-2006, 10:28 PM
Not really, I did say I thought she was mad to ask me and now I find out that it's a much bigger comp than I had originally thought as well.Ahh, makes sense now.

My advice with competitions is to enter your first competition before you're ready. Then, when your dancing's ready, it won't be your first competition.

IMHO, dance competitions are all about the enjoyment of the day. If you find it painfully stressful you should become a spectator.

Gav
18th-October-2006, 10:37 PM
My advice with competitions is to enter your first competition before you're ready. Then, when your dancing's ready, it won't be your first competition.


Hadn't looked at it like that, but it makes sense.
Ta.

Baruch
19th-October-2006, 08:16 AM
So, hummm, what you're saying is, MJ dance competitions are basically pointless?
Not at all. I'm just saying that independent competitions are probably fairer in that they're less likely to judge according to only one organisation's criteria.

That said, in any competition there will probably be at least some disagreement with the results because opinions are like @rseholes -- we've all got one.

David Bailey
19th-October-2006, 08:30 AM
Not at all. I'm just saying that independent competitions are probably fairer in that they're less likely to judge according to only one organisation's criteria.
But at least Ceroc have criteria.

The only criteria other organisations use is "It must be Modern Jive". What the hell does that mean? How do you judge based on something as wishy-washy as that?

ducasi
19th-October-2006, 08:42 AM
Do Ceroc have a set of criteria?

Has it been shown that the Ceroc judges are biased towards Ceroc-taught dancers?

As for a definition of what "Modern Jive" is... I don't know if I could describe it, but I knows it when I sees it! ;)

Hopefully judges at Modern Jive competitions can do likewise. :)

David Bailey
19th-October-2006, 08:54 AM
Do Ceroc have a set of criteria?
They certainly did for the Ceroc X competition, and looking at the Champs definitions (http://www.cerocchamps.com/categories.htm), I think it's more tightly-defined with Ceroc, yes.


Has it been shown that the Ceroc judges are biased towards Ceroc-taught dancers?
Almost certainly not.


As for a definition of what "Modern Jive" is... I don't know if I could describe it, but I knows it when I sees it! ;)

Hopefully judges at Modern Jive competitions can do likewise. :)
I've no problems with judges being excellent abiters of timing, floorcraft, presentation, connection, musicality and so on. But how do they judge when a couple is not dancing Modern Jive?

Would a couple doing 100% Jango be disqualified? How about 50%? Or just a couple of ochos?

ducasi
19th-October-2006, 09:05 AM
They certainly did for the Ceroc X competition, and looking at the Champs definitions (http://www.cerocchamps.com/categories.htm), I think it's more tightly-defined with Ceroc, yes. :confused:

This is how they define "Modern Jive":

The dance must be recognisable as a modern jive like Ceroc. (Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, 50s style Rock 'n' Roll, Ballroom Jive etc are not modern jives and therefore are not permitted.) Well that clears that one up!


Would a couple doing 100% Jango be disqualified? How about 50%? Or just a couple of ochos? Just so long as there was sufficient "J" in their Jango, no problem. Is it Blackpool or the Scottish champs that says something about 80% of the dance must be recognisable as Modern Jive?

Andy McGregor
19th-October-2006, 09:25 AM
Would a couple doing 100% Jango be disqualified? How about 50%? Or just a couple of ochos?Jango is Modern Jive. A dance is defined by the timing and the MJ timing is a simple 1234 with equal timing on each count with the first movement on beat one, timing can be single timing on beats 1 & 3 or double time using all beats. You can't say the same for other partner dances and this is what makes MJ different and therefore it's what defines the dance. Jango has used some moves from Tango and changed the timing to MJ timing - that means it's MJ.

David Bailey
19th-October-2006, 09:39 AM
Jango is Modern Jive. A dance is defined by the timing and the MJ timing is a simple 1234 with equal timing on each count with the first movement on beat one, timing can be single timing on beats 1 & 3 or double time using all beats. You can't say the same for other partner dances and this is what makes MJ different and therefore it's what defines the dance. Jango has used some moves from Tango and changed the timing to MJ timing - that means it's MJ.
You know, I think I'd agree with you ( :eek: ) - looking at the fundamentals, it's a non-progressive dance, it is done to MJ timing as you said, and it depends on MJ for entry / exit points.

So based on this I guess the judges would allow any moves, except airsteps, as "Modern Jive"?

robd
19th-October-2006, 09:49 AM
Jango has used some moves from Tango and changed the timing to MJ timing - that means it's MJ.

Not sure I would agree with this though there are a number of people on here better qualified to judge it than I. At more than one of the Jango workshops I have attended Amir has talked about the timing not being fixed (being 'elastic' could be one way to look at it). Indeed he was gently mocking of a number of people at one workshop who couldn't grasp the slow, slow, quick, quick pattern he was demonstrating. The fact that many people then dance their Jango steps to fixed timing doesn't mean that Jango itself is bound by that.

Or maybe I have misunderstood what you are meaning by the above entirely??

Robert

Patrick
19th-October-2006, 10:15 AM
Not sure I would agree with this though there are a number of people on here better qualified to judge it than I. At more than one of the Jango workshops I have attended Amir has talked about the timing not being fixed (being 'elastic' could be one way to look at it). Indeed he was gently mocking of a number of people at one workshop who couldn't grasp the slow, slow, quick, quick pattern he was demonstrating. The fact that many people then dance their Jango steps to fixed timing doesn't mean that Jango itself is bound by that.

Or maybe I have misunderstood what you are meaning by the above entirely??

Robert

Hi Robert!

What have I started here?!! :what: :eek: :confused: Though I'm pleased the discussion is now getting to some serious issues.

I'm with you here. I'm not experienced enough to know the answers to some of these questions! But in this case I would have assumed that Jango might not qualify as MJ in a competition. I've heard Amir teach "now here are some jive moves to get in the modern jive element", as if he was trying to make it just about enough to be considered MJ.

I also don't get the feeling that Ceroc has a better definition of MJ than anyone else. I think Ceroc X highlights this point (beginners moves only) - AFAIK there is no definition of how far you can interpret a beginners move before judges would say its not a beginners move any more. Freezes? Styling? Missing out the returns? Stretching the timing? FM slingshot?

As I mentioned in another post, I don't think there should be a tight definition anyway, that would discourage innovation, as in the "Strictly Ballroom" film. I sometimes get told off by my first Ceroc teacher for not using hand holds as taught by Ceroc. Having done many styles now, I just adapt my hold according to the music and the moves and the partner. If she says it again I will probably say "Maybe this is not 'Strictly Ceroc', but it works for me!" In the detail, Leroc and Ceroc sometimes teach directly opposite "must do's", but I don't think that substantially changes the nature of the dance, especially to an observer.

As you may have noticed in the Monday-Lush thread I said I would love a dance with Sparkles, but it may not be Jango. To the extent I can do 'proper' Jango, it has a completely different feel to standard MJ. More flowing, elastic. Just doing a Jango first move and change places to "Temptation" was a heart-stopping experience for me. I doubt it would qualify as Ceroc moves in Ceroc X though. Or maybe it would? :confused: :confused:

I think if the judges have a wide range of backgrounds, the decisions should be fair, even if not unanimous. If there were no element of luck/randomness in the decisions, it would make competitions less exciting IMHO. The same people would always win. (OK a bit of a generalisation, but I hope you get the point) Surprising decisions, (unless obviously biased), will encourage innovation.

Patrick :flower:

robd
19th-October-2006, 10:26 AM
As you may have noticed in the Monday-Lush thread I said I would love a dance with Sparkles,

So you don't remember the one you had on Monday then....:whistle:

David Bailey
19th-October-2006, 11:07 AM
I've replied to the "Jango, what is it?" bits on the "Jango" thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=294461#post294461) - feel free to join me there :)


As I mentioned in another post, I don't think there should be a tight definition anyway, that would discourage innovation, as in the "Strictly Ballroom" film.
I totally agree with this - however, the looser a definition you have of what the dance form is, the more subjective it becomes to judge whether the dance is MJ or not.

If you allow Jango (and Andy's made a good case for it, he's persuaded me at least), then presumably you can allow steps of WCS, cha-cha, etc. - in fact, you have to, because a lot of MJ steps have those elements in anyway.

So where do you draw the line?

ducasi
19th-October-2006, 12:04 PM
Jango is Modern Jive. A dance is defined by the timing and the MJ timing is a simple 1234 with equal timing on each count with the first movement on beat one, timing can be single timing on beats 1 & 3 or double time using all beats. You can't say the same for other partner dances and this is what makes MJ different and therefore it's what defines the dance. Jango has used some moves from Tango and changed the timing to MJ timing - that means it's MJ.
How does the timing of Tango differ from Modern Jive?

If I were to dance a Jango dance using 100% Tango steps, would that really be Modern Jive?

Doesn't Mambo and Salsa ("On 2") have the same timing? Are they the same dance?

I think there's more to a dance than the timing. While a particular timing may be a unique characteristic of a dance, I don't think it defines the dance. I think the shape, typical tempo, and attitude of a dance also have to be taken into account.

Gadget
19th-October-2006, 12:58 PM
What about the music? Dosn't that have any bearing?

MartinHarper
19th-October-2006, 01:08 PM
Is there a serious problem with WCS dancers winning MJ competitions by dancing WCS? I would expect them to be more interested in winning WCS competitions.

Gus
19th-October-2006, 01:17 PM
Is there a serious problem with WCS dancers winning MJ competitions by dancing WCS? I would expect them to be more interested in winning WCS competitions. ... urrr and how many WCS competitions are there in the UK and how much prize money is available in them? :whistle:

Lynn
19th-October-2006, 01:17 PM
IMHO, dance competitions are all about the enjoyment of the day. If you find it painfully stressful you should become a spectator.:yeah: I've only been to one, had been planning to go as a spectator - someone :whistle: talked me into entering to really experience a comp. Glad they did, I was scared, but it was a great day and taking part very much added to my enjoyment of the event. :hug:

Patrick
19th-October-2006, 02:59 PM
So you don't remember the one you had on Monday then....:whistle:

Ah, but on Monday afternoon when I posted, the dance with Sparkles was in the future... Yes I do remember of course, and it was suitably Sparkly! I think I managed about 1.5 Jango moves before lapsing into MJ, which was the point I had in mind even b4 I came to the Jango class.

So far I don't buy the Jango = MJ argument. Though to try it out I'm considering entering Ceroc X at the Midlands Champs and dancing Jango styled beginners moves. Would we be disqualified do you think? (Guess I'd better discuss this with my partner first tho..)

Patrick :flower:

David Bailey
19th-October-2006, 03:10 PM
How does the timing of Tango differ from Modern Jive?
Errr, quite a lot. Someone with actual musical knowledge is better to answer than me...


If I were to dance a Jango dance using 100% Tango steps, would that really be Modern Jive?
Assuming it's done to a tango-y track, then it's not Jango it's Tango.
If you're dancing 100% Tango steps to a MJ track - actually, I don't believe that's really possible. You can't dance AT to MJ tracks.


Doesn't Mambo and Salsa ("On 2") have the same timing? Are they the same dance?
They're both based on the clave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clave_%28rhythm%29), and they're pretty similar dances, yes, at least for some salsa variants. Salsa, mambo, rumba, cha cha, bachata (yuk!), etc. - all related by the music.


I think there's more to a dance than the timing. While a particular timing may be a unique characteristic of a dance, I don't think it defines the dance. I think the shape, typical tempo, and attitude of a dance also have to be taken into account.
Hmm, I dunno. I think the music does define the dance, mostly... OK, salsa styles can be mostly danced to any music, but there still is "Cuban" music, Columbian music, etc. And tango styles are definitely all based on the music played.

robd
19th-October-2006, 03:24 PM
Ah, but on Monday afternoon when I posted, the dance with Sparkles was in the future... Yes I do remember of course, and it was suitably Sparkly! I think I managed about 1.5 Jango moves before lapsing into MJ, which was the point I had in mind even b4 I came to the Jango class.


I know. I was only teasing you. I, and the vast majority I would guess, of people who attend Jango lessons tend not to carry a huge amount of it through into the freestyle even though I know I should at least try to do so.



So far I don't buy the Jango = MJ argument. Though to try it out I'm considering entering Ceroc X at the Midlands Champs and dancing Jango styled beginners moves. Would we be disqualified do you think?


Yes, I think you would. The jango first move, for example, omits the turn back in of the follower. I believe Ceroc are very prescriptive with the teaching of the beginner's moves (necessarily so, in order to achieve countrywide consistency) so missing off a key component of a move as they teach it would almost certainly see you disqualified.

David Bailey
19th-October-2006, 03:29 PM
Yes, I think you would. The jango first move, for example, omits the turn back in of the follower. I believe Ceroc are very prescriptive with the teaching of the beginner's moves (necessarily so, in order to achieve countrywide consistency) so missing off a key component of a move as they teach it would almost certainly see you disqualified.
:yeah:

You'd definitely get disqualified from Ceroc X - the whole rationale of that is to be strictly beginner-move-only. Lots of people did get disqualified last time, for inadvertently doing a non-beginner move.

But, presumably, anything goes in other categories, so you could dance Jango and theoretically be OK.

Patrick
19th-October-2006, 03:50 PM
Yes, I think you would [be disqualified in Ceroc X comp]. The jango first move, for example, omits the turn back in of the follower. I believe Ceroc are very prescriptive with the teaching of the beginner's moves (necessarily so, in order to achieve countrywide consistency) so missing off a key component of a move as they teach it would almost certainly see you disqualified.

Yes I know! Which was the point of considering how far you can style, eg, a Ceroc First Move before its not Ceroc any more.

I know you could argue that it is, say "Ceroc FM Jango", and therefore not a beginners move. But if I wiggle my hips a bit (or a lot) does that become a "Ceroc FM Latin Stylee" or somesuch, and not a beginners move either?

I know this is also a different question to is Jango=MJ in general. (Specifically would Jango moves be considered stylistic variations on MJ moves or, not MJ at all). I can't see a problem in throwing in a few moves from any other styles, music permitting, and it would still be MJ. But I reckon dancing 100% Jango moves to tango music would be Jango, not MJ. So probably OK in a Showcase, but not in Int/Adv/Open/Ceroc X I would guess. OTOH, throw in a few MJ travelling returns and manspins, and you have your 20% MJ! OK except for Ceroc X?

Patrick
19th-October-2006, 04:02 PM
:yeah:

You'd definitely get disqualified from Ceroc X - the whole rationale of that is to be strictly beginner-move-only. Lots of people did get disqualified last time, for inadvertently doing a non-beginner move.

But, presumably, anything goes in other categories, so you could dance Jango and theoretically be OK.

As I understand it, the point of Ceroc X is to use musicality and style to push the limits of what you can do with beginners moves. I assume that if you dance beginners moves as they are demonstrated in a beginners class you will look a bit of a prat! A couple of prats really. Its clear that Ceroc X is and Advanced/Open category, not Beginners or Intermediate. So just what are you allowed to do before getting disqualified?

Or more specifically, what would get you disqualified? Apart from not dancing beginners moves of course :rolleyes:

robd
20th-October-2006, 04:29 PM
As I understand it, the point of Ceroc X is to use musicality and style to push the limits of what you can do with beginners moves. I assume that if you dance beginners moves as they are demonstrated in a beginners class you will look a bit of a prat! A couple of prats really. Its clear that Ceroc X is and Advanced/Open category, not Beginners or Intermediate. So just what are you allowed to do before getting disqualified?

Or more specifically, what would get you disqualified? Apart from not dancing beginners moves of course :rolleyes:

The point is that you do the moves as taught i.e all component parts but this does not mean you have to look like a beginner when dancing them. It's an open category in the truest sense in that people at all levels of experience can enter. There was debate when the category was first announced for this year's champs as to what the purpose was and, for some, the thinking was that by limiting the available moves, you could emphasise the style and musicality that someone uses to perform those moves. I think it's a good idea but am not sure that the reality of it matched Mike Ellard's expectations (hence his exhortations at the Champs for more teachers, etc to enter that category). It's a category that would attract me were I interested in competing but I feel sure I lack the discipline not to get myself disqualified.

Robert

Andy McGregor
20th-October-2006, 05:39 PM
Yes, I think you would. The jango first move, for example, omits the turn back in of the follower. I believe Ceroc are very prescriptive with the teaching of the beginner's moves (necessarily so, in order to achieve countrywide consistency) so missing off a key component of a move as they teach it would almost certainly see you disqualified.The Jango styled first move is a different, but similar, move - it's a first move variation, of which Ceroc itself has many. In the Ceroc X category you have to do the first move as taught beginners. If you do any other move you are not doing the first move that is required in the rules. But are still doing Modern Jive.

I'm amazed at the response to my post about Jango being MJ. I've had robd and Patrick saying they disagree with me and then saying they are not qualified to disagree. So why do it? :confused: And, even more amazingly, I've had DavidJames agree with me - which makes me wonder if I'm right:whistle:

robd
20th-October-2006, 05:54 PM
I've had robd and Patrick saying they disagree with me and then saying they are not qualified to disagree. So why do it? :confused:

is an interesting interpretation of


Not sure I would agree with this though there are a number of people on here better qualified to judge it than I.

I didn't feel that I was not qualified to comment but that other forumites such as Amir (obviously :rolleyes: ), Will and Chris A would be significantly better qualified to comment than I.

Robert

MartinHarper
20th-October-2006, 06:21 PM
In the Ceroc X category you have to do the first move as taught beginners.

Do you have to start the dance with a semi-circle and step-back?
Also, after you finish the dance, do you have to give yourself a round of applause?

Gav
20th-October-2006, 06:23 PM
Do you have to start the dance with a semi-circle and step-back?
Also, after you finish the dance, do you have to give yourself a round of applause?

You forgot to introduce yourself to your partner!

Patrick
20th-October-2006, 06:31 PM
I'm amazed at the response to my post about Jango being MJ. I've had robd and Patrick saying they disagree with me and then saying they are not qualified to disagree. So why do it? :confused:

I was just giving my current impression of all this, based on admittedly limited, but intense experience. I don't think it matters much on the whole, a dance is just a dance after all. But I wouldn't want to be disqualified in a competition for dancing a move a bit wrong. Marked down for pushing the limits OK, but disqualification is a bit severe. Strictly Ballroom again!

I will read the Ceroc X rules again and see how clear they are. I am amazed if doing a part-move is a hanging offence, its not actually adding anything is it? Seems to me an inventive use of what you're given to work with. So does a stand alone Pushpin not preceded by an arm jive not count? What about 4 arm jives and no Pushpin/Swizzle/Turn Return? And what are the beginner's moves this week anyway? (They seem to change randomly from year to year, class to class, and are definitely not standard across Ceroc venues).


And, even more amazingly, I've had DavidJames agree with me - which makes me wonder if I'm right:whistle:

Well I don't know David well yet, but maybe you should wonder Andy! :D :wink: I resolved I wouldn't get into 'arguments' on this forum... New resolution - keep resolutions!

No hard feelings I hope :flower:

Patrick :cheers:

Patrick
20th-October-2006, 06:56 PM
Do you have to start the dance with a semi-circle and step-back?
Also, after you finish the dance, do you have to give yourself a round of applause?


You forgot to introduce yourself to your partner!

Come on you guys, this is a serious discussion here. :mad:

But you did forget lots of important details. Like shuffling up close to your partner, a few false starts while the teacher tells obigatory risque jokes, fall about laughing/cringing, get distracted by the tedium and flirt with partner, get told off for ignoring the teacher, say 'Thank You' at the end, smile, and if it goes really well, get phone number. A winning effort I think.

What's that? some people come to learn to dance? :what:

Gav
20th-October-2006, 06:58 PM
Come on you guys, this is a serious discussion here. :mad:

But you did forget lots of important details. Like shuffling up close to your partner, a few false starts while the teacher tells obigatory risque jokes, fall about laughing/cringing, get distracted by the tedium and flirt with partner, get told off for ignoring the teacher, say 'Thank You' at the end, smile, and if it goes really well, get phone number. A winning effort I think.

What's that? some people come to learn to dance? :what:

Serious, sorry I no understand :na:

Patrick
21st-October-2006, 03:10 AM
Serious, sorry I no understand :na:

I was being so serious I forgot to throw in the odd :wink: and :rolleyes: and :whistle: .... :o (never used that one before)

I was told off by a lady tonight for looking serious! Moi? I was just cultivating that smouldering look... or plotting a dastardly non-standard move. I love it when they say, "Oooo, I've never seen that move before! :D ", and I'm thinking, "You're not the only one..." :waycool: And they'll probably never see it again either!

David Bailey
22nd-October-2006, 12:52 PM
I'm amazed at the response to my post about Jango being MJ. I've had robd and Patrick saying they disagree with me and then saying they are not qualified to disagree. So why do it? :confused: And, even more amazingly, I've had DavidJames agree with me - which makes me wonder if I'm right:whistle:
I'm not sure I'm qualified to agree either :rofl:

But I think you make a good case for Jango being a variant of MJ - like Blues, for example - rather than a distinct and different dance. Based on the music, the hold and the non-progressive nature, I also think it's a MJ variant.

Gadget
23rd-October-2006, 08:37 AM
The Jango styled first move is a different, but similar, move - it's a first move variation, of which Ceroc itself has many. In the Ceroc X category you have to do the first move as taught beginners. If you do any other move you are not doing the first move that is required in the rules. But are still doing Modern Jive.The"Jango" variant does not have the lead stepping back, mirroring the follower and it has a 'step under' exit. It does not follow the basic "Ceroc" first move. Fairly obvious: you can't do that variation.

What puzzles me about it is what would happen if I removed all the returns? What about if I paused or played with the timeing? Is the move still the same move if there is a 'break' in it? if it dosn't follow the same timeing?
I suppose a move is a series of "movements", therefore timeing shouldn't matter?

Would a "traveling return" be allowed?

David Bailey
23rd-October-2006, 09:02 AM
What puzzles me about it is what would happen if I removed all the returns? What about if I paused or played with the timeing? Is the move still the same move if there is a 'break' in it? if it dosn't follow the same timeing?
I suppose a move is a series of "movements", therefore timeing shouldn't matter?

Would a "traveling return" be allowed?
Very good questions - basically, do you have to do the moves exactly as taught in the classes? If in doubt, I'd assume "yes" - the challenge is then to make them look good without most of the standard toolbox of musicality and variation you'd otherwise be allowed.

I'll ask the Ceroc X Champions (!) tonight, see what they say.

Patrick
26th-October-2006, 05:45 AM
Very good questions - basically, do you have to do the moves exactly as taught in the classes? If in doubt, I'd assume "yes" - the challenge is then to make them look good without most of the standard toolbox of musicality and variation you'd otherwise be allowed.

I'll ask the Ceroc X Champions (!) tonight, see what they say.

So what did they say David? I tried some Ceroc X last night. It is horribly difficult! I found that typically I can only do 2 beginners moves before getting an uncontrollable urge to do something else.

I just entered Ceroc X for the Midlands Champs... :eek: :eek: :eek: maybe we'll go for the couple-with-most-violations-to-the-rules-wooden-spoon-prize. Try to dance no beginners moves at all. I always was a rebel.

I did ask Amir on Monday if he thought Jango was a form of Modern Jive. The short answer was - he doesn't know! The long answer was much more informative, but still not conclusive. But he did think that Blues definitely isn't MJ, and I agree... Thanks for the rep BTW!

A rose by any other name...

David Bailey
26th-October-2006, 10:08 AM
So what did they say David?
B&gger, it completely slipped my mind... :blush:

I saw them do a bit of their routine a while back though (well, freestyle) and it did generally seem quite conventional, not a lot of pushing the envelope (in a nice way of course). It's almost an elimination contest, the couple who don't make a mistake are the winners or whatever.


I did ask Amir on Monday if he thought Jango was a form of Modern Jive. The short answer was - he doesn't know! The long answer was much more informative, but still not conclusive.
Yes, he posted much the same on the MJDA forum. Kind of puts the kibosh on any further debate I reckon. :sad:

Patrick
26th-October-2006, 02:41 PM
Re: Ceroc X Winners/Rules

B&gger, it completely slipped my mind... :blush:

I saw them do a bit of their routine a while back though (well, freestyle) and it did generally seem quite conventional, not a lot of pushing the envelope (in a nice way of course). It's almost an elimination contest, the couple who don't make a mistake are the winners or whatever.
Yes I think that will be the challenge for me, just to avoid launching into the non-beginner moves I do routinely. Come to think of it, I rarely do beginners moves as taught either... :what: :eek:


Originally Posted by Patrick
I did ask Amir on Monday if he thought Jango was a form of Modern Jive. The short answer was - he doesn't know! The long answer was much more informative, but still not conclusive.
Originally posted by DavidJames
Yes, he [Amir] posted much the same on the MJDA forum. Kind of puts the kibosh on any further debate I reckon. :sad:

Oh I don't know, I think we're capable of endless pontification and speculation!

The "is Jango = Modern Jive?" question is relevant to competitions. Someone well placed to know feels Amir & Cat would have won the Brit Rock Showcase if they had done traditional MJ rather than Jango. To my mind that says Jango is not MJ, or else it would be judged equally to "conventional" MJ. If you just want to dance your dance, it's not important. If you want to be placed as highly as possible in a competition, then it matters.

I know I'm going to regret this, but what/where is the MJDA forum? :blush:

Patrick :cheers:

"...so, I'm going to do MY kind of dancing, with a great partner..." Johnny Castle

Gus
26th-October-2006, 02:49 PM
The "is Jango = Modern Jive?" question is relevant to competitions. Someone well placed to know feels Amir & Cat would have won the Brit Rock Showcase if they had done traditional MJ rather than Jango. And since when has a Conventional MJ routine ever featured in a showcase :confused: :confused: The sources I heard seemed to suggest (and I heard similar wrt the Blackpool champs) is that it was down to pure 'entertainment' value. Now, we just need to define 'entertainment' :rolleyes:

David Bailey
26th-October-2006, 02:56 PM
I know I'm going to regret this, but what/where is the MJDA forum? :blush:
http://www.mjda.org/forum/

Patrick
26th-October-2006, 04:00 PM
http://www.mjda.org/forum/

That all looks spookily familiar, only in an eerie bluey colour... a bit like the Twiight Zone. And they have a special competitions forum... Not sure if I dare enter yet :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I see Gus is the newest member :whistle:

Andy McGregor
26th-October-2006, 06:40 PM
That all looks spookily familiar, only in an eerie bluey colour... a bit like the Twiight Zone. And they have a special competitions forum... Not sure if I dare enter yet :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I see Gus is the newest member :whistle:Is there enough time in your life for another dance forum? If there is my answer would be "get one", a life that is :innocent:

David Bailey
26th-October-2006, 07:48 PM
I see Gus is the newest member :whistle:
:eek:

David Bailey
31st-October-2006, 09:29 AM
Re: Ceroc X competition:

So what did they say David? I tried some Ceroc X last night. It is horribly difficult! I found that typically I can only do 2 beginners moves before getting an uncontrollable urge to do something else.

I finally remembered to ask Tezi last night about this (she's on the Forum but has a life so probably doesn't read this), and apparently there are no variations allowed - each move has to be the exact timing and structure as taught in the class. If you vary, you're disqualified.

So, that answers that then.

Baruch
31st-October-2006, 10:58 AM
apparently there are no variations allowed - each move has to be the exact timing and structure as taught in the class. If you vary, you're disqualified.
So how on earth do they judge it, then? Is it a case of whoever doesn't get disqualified for putting in an extra turn here or a ronde there wins by default?

TheTramp
31st-October-2006, 11:05 AM
So how on earth do they judge it, then? Is it a case of whoever doesn't get disqualified for putting in an extra turn here or a ronde there wins by default?

:yeah:

Sounds quite interesting. I'd love to see whoever devised the idea for this competition doing a demo of just how they envisaged this competition working.

It obviously did. I just can't imagine it at the moment, based on the info I've read so far. Maybe I should have come down to London last year and watched it!

David Bailey
31st-October-2006, 11:10 AM
So how on earth do they judge it, then? Is it a case of whoever doesn't get disqualified for putting in an extra turn here or a ronde there wins by default?
I dunno, what do you think I am, a judge or something? :rofl:

Presumably, if there were several couples still standing at the end (so to speak), then you could still judge between them based on musicality (i.e. choice of moves to fit the music), connection, style, posture, presentation and all that other stuff.

Gadget
31st-October-2006, 01:56 PM
I dunno, what do you think I am, a judge or something? :rofl:

Presumably, if there were several couples still standing at the end (so to speak), then you could still judge between them based on musicality (i.e. choice of moves to fit the music), connection, style, posture, presentation and all that other stuff.
How can you have musicality without varying the timeing? How can you present a move with style if it has to be executed exactly as the bible dictates?

I wonder if people get disqualified for not keeping on the same "slot" and rotating? After all, that's the way all the moves are taught.

TheTramp
31st-October-2006, 02:15 PM
How can you have musicality without varying the timeing? How can you present a move with style if it has to be executed exactly as the bible dictates?

I wonder if people get disqualified for not keeping on the same "slot" and rotating? After all, that's the way all the moves are taught.

This is what I can't quite work out about the competition. Like I said, maybe I should have gone along to watch....

David Bailey
31st-October-2006, 02:31 PM
How can you have musicality without varying the timeing? How can you present a move with style if it has to be executed exactly as the bible dictates?
I presume that's the challenge.

I'd guess that some moves are more suited to certain bits of music than others - it's not as if they're all the same timing after all. "Musicality" isn't just "slowing down to slow music and pausing on the breaks", apparently.

Similarly, it's possible to dance a First Move both well and badly - and other moves as well.

In some ways, not having the standard "box of tricks" makes it more difficult to dance well, but it also means you have to dance well, you don't get the luxury of slowing down to catch a break, for example.


I wonder if people get disqualified for not keeping on the same "slot" and rotating? After all, that's the way all the moves are taught.
I doubt it - Robin and Tezi are natural circular dancers not slotted.


This is what I can't quite work out about the competition. Like I said, maybe I should have gone along to watch....
:yeah: - rather than ask me, who also wasn't there.

Or PM Robin / Tezii. Or watch the champs this weekend. Or something... :rolleyes:

Patrick
31st-October-2006, 04:08 PM
Re: Ceroc X Rules...




:yeah: - rather than ask me, who also wasn't there.

Or PM Robin / Tezii. Or watch the champs this weekend. Or something... :rolleyes:

I am a little :o to admit that, having properly read the Ceroc X Rules on the Ceroc Champs website, it is pretty clear what is and isn't allowed!

There is a little flexibility for musical interpretation.

The details are probably academic, because it seems nigh on impossible to dance even 10 beginner moves in a row without slipping into something else which just seems to fit the music! I broke my record on Sunday while 'rehearsing' Ceroc X in a freestyle. I did a first move first :clap: :clap: , but couldn't resist going into an intermediate move next as it just seemed to fit better :eek: :D Now I only need to fluff the first move (which doesn't have to be a First Move of course) for immediate disqualification!

It now occurs to me that beginners might have a better chance than I thought in this section - not knowing any other moves would be an advantage.

Patrick :flower:

David Bailey
31st-October-2006, 04:16 PM
It now occurs to me that beginners might have a better chance than I thought in this section - not knowing any other moves would be an advantage.
But then you'd lose out on the "not looking very good" stakes.

In theory, anyone can last a track, just by doing First Moves all the time.

The trick, I imagine, is to provide enough variation to look good, whilst still keeping to the strict rules and moves allowed.

Patrick
31st-October-2006, 04:25 PM
But then you'd lose out on the "not looking very good" stakes.

In theory, anyone can last a track, just by doing First Moves all the time.

The trick, I imagine, is to provide enough variation to look good, whilst still keeping to the strict rules and moves allowed.

I was just thinking exactly the same thing! I'm not sure I could last out just by doing First Moves either, something possesses me at certain points in a track, and I just can'r resist going into some favourite move or sequence.

My objective for Ceroc X first time will be just to avoid disqualification!

David Bailey
31st-October-2006, 04:29 PM
I was just thinking exactly the same thing! I'm not sure I could last out just by doing First Moves either, something possesses me at certain points in a track, and I just can'r resist going into some favourite move or sequence.

My objective for Ceroc X first time will be just to avoid disqualification!
Well, from what I dimly recall from talking to R & T, they didn't do all 16, just a subset - so you could vary, say, 5-6 moves throughout if you want?

Gadget
31st-October-2006, 06:56 PM
I'd guess that some moves are more suited to certain bits of music than others - it's not as if they're all the same timing after all. "Musicality" isn't just "slowing down to slow music and pausing on the breaks", apparently.And that's not simply "timing" - in my opinion it's more to do with only actually being on the "count" when it matters (ie where a move changes direction or {in this case} on the 'reset' position.) You slow down, hesitate, move late or early,... sort of like not dancing in time but always try and hit the count at the correct place....:confused: hard to explain - easier to demonstrate.

I think I will try tonight and see how board I get just doing beginner moves as decreed in the bible. (or if I even can...:rolleyes:...)

ElaineB
31st-October-2006, 08:16 PM
And since when has a Conventional MJ routine ever featured in a showcase :confused: :confused: The sources I heard seemed to suggest (and I heard similar wrt the Blackpool champs) is that it was down to pure 'entertainment' value. Now, we just need to define 'entertainment' :rolleyes:

Do you know, I could have sworn we did a bit of dancing as well.........:D


Elaine

Gus
31st-October-2006, 09:27 PM
Do you know, I could have sworn we did a bit of dancing as well.........:D [Well you actually did some pretty awesome dancing .... :respect:

Ste
5th-November-2006, 02:39 PM
Well I only like to dance with beginners because I can't cope with intermediates!

I only have three moves now;good, bad and indifferent