Ballroom - hampered by 10-dances?

[David Bailey]

Ballroom dancing is (sort of) divided into 5 ballroom dances (Slow Waltz, Tango, Viennese Waltz, Slow Foxtrot and Quickstep) and 5 latin dances (Cha cha, Samba, Rumba, Paso Doble and Jive).

To progress and learn "ballroom dancing", you pretty much have to learn all 10 dances. You don't get the option to, for example, learn Rumba only. It seems to be all 10, or none at all.

So, my questions are:

Has this "all or nothing" approach helped kill off social ballroom dancing?
Has it inhibited / stifled future development of individual dances?
Would the social partner dancing scene be more healthy if individual dances were focussed on?

[Chef]

Having to learn all ten dances certainly killed it for me. I had been going to weekly classes for about 18 months and could only dance about 40 seconds of each dance. Of course I was taught an lot of posture, frame and core technique but the dances remained something that definately stayed locked away in its box except in class time.

I hated ballroom jive and samba (still do). Instanstly loved waltz, cha cha, rumba, quickstep, ballroom tango, and learnt to like paso doble and foxtrot.

BUT

Being given about 20 minutes of instruction and practice time on any one meant that nothing really sank in and stayed. The next session came around in two weeks time and almost all was lost.

I would much prefer to have the classes organised so that only one dance was taught over about 2 hours and a fair bit of freestyle time offered to be able to embed the material.

I am at last able to do this with Cat and Lees Cha Cha workshops and they really suit my style of learning. I would really like to find similar style of classes for some of the other ballroom dances.

A lot of the dance classes I have tried are all centred on generating people that will take part in local ballroom and latin comps and so try to teach all 10 dances to everyone. Because many of these competitions are stratified according to to medal level of the dancers there have been many occasion where I have been told that I can't be taught a certain step because "you are not allowed to do that step in your competition grade". Sheesh - I just want to dance the dance and enjoy doing it.

[David Bailey]

I wonder if there'd be a market for cha cha classes?

Failing that, a subset of 4 (say, Jive, Cha cha, Foxtrot and Waltz) would be more popular, I'm sure.

[TheTramp]

I wonder if there'd be a market for cha cha classes?

Failing that, a subset of 4 (say, Jive, Cha cha, Foxtrot and Waltz) would be more popular, I'm sure.

I think that's a fair point. Of course, you'll then get people who want to do the quickstep too! Just the quickstep. None of the others.

Or the rumba. Or....

[David Bailey]

I think that's a fair point. Of course, you'll then get people who want to do the quickstep too! Just the quickstep. None of the others.

Or the rumba. Or....

So what's wrong with that? Let the popular dances succeed, drop the unpopular ones. That's how partner dancing has worked historically, and that's natural evolution for you.

For example, forcing people to learn the Viennese Waltz is just nuts. But you could possibly market something like rumba as "sexier than salsa"...

[Chef]

I wonder if there'd be a market for cha cha classes?

Failing that, a subset of 4 (say, Jive, Cha cha, Foxtrot and Waltz) would be more popular, I'm sure.

There is at least SOME market for Cha Cha only classes/Workshops. The ones that I go to are always well attended. You see a fair number of people dancing cha cha to the large number of cha cha tracks that are played at MJ events these days so I would say that Cha Cha is much more popular among the MJ crowd than it used to be about 4 years ago.

As I said earlier.


I am at last able to do this with Cat and Lees Cha Cha workshops and they really suit my style of learning. I would really like to find similar style of classes for some of the other ballroom dances.





I think that's a fair point. Of course, you'll then get people who want to do the quickstep too! Just the quickstep. None of the others.

Or the rumba. Or....

Yes there are people (like me) that want to cherry pick the dances and do those ones that most grab their interest and learn them first and make a decent fist of them (as well as being able to actually dance them socially. I think it would be similar to the way that MJ gets people into the world of dancing and then they decide which direction they then want to go (lindy, blues, WCS, AT). Can you imagine MJ being as poplular as it is if you required everybody to learn AT, WCS, Lindy, Salsa, blues, with an equal weighting as MJ? I think that the "you will be taught all 10 dances equally" model puts a lot of people off.

Mind you I can't imagine what an hour of freestyle after a waltz lesson might be like (there is only so much waltz I can stand) and I don't have the energy levels for an hour of Samba.



I would much prefer to have the classes organised so that only one dance was taught over about 2 hours and a fair bit of freestyle time offered to be able to embed the material.

[Ballroom queen]

oh how I wish Hendon dance centre still existed!!! When I learnt Ballroom I went on Sunday evenings for 2 hours, we did one dance for 3 weeks and built up a routine (oh please don't get started on routines / floor craft / lead and follow, it worked) after 6 months we had routines in 10 dances. By then I had started going to weekday classes for more general posture, technigue and steps, thus improving the lead and follow and less emphasis on routines.

Then I started medal classes where we concentrated on a smaller number of dances. Over a couple of years I became fairly proficient and this basic dance skill has never left me. Unfortuantly the school has closed as the two main teachers died.

I have never found a class like it. However, the bottom line is, the dances are harder than MJ and you don't get the "quick fix" effect of MJ - you have to persevere.

But its worth it!!!

[Sparkles]

But its worth it!!!

:yeah:
I did ballroom for years and I will quite happily admit that I didn't like all the dances (in fact there were some I loathed), but I wasn't given the option of 'learn this but not that' as if you learnt, you learnt them all; and it was very much like a school-room, you did as you were told and you didn't moan about it. But then I learnt when I was a kid...
.. it is tough to learn all 10 dances, but most schools do build you up gradually, especially if you go to medallists' classes which require fewer dances for the lower grades. You can also take 'one dance' exams, which a lot of people find very helpful in the beginning as you have to learn one dance intensively and then take an exam to consolidate, and then you move on to another dance. The only problem with that is that by the time you've waded through all 10 dances you'll probably have forgotten the ones you did at the beginning.

As a medallist and a competitor I haven't had a huge amount of experience of the social side of ballroom dancing, so it's difficult to say whether having to know all 10 dances has 'killed it off' or not. I would guess that there are probably many other factors that have contributed, such as the lack of dancing schools and teachers who are willing to teach classes for purely social dancing reasons, the cost of lessons, the unavaliablity of suitable venues and the lack of interest from the general public.

As for a cure, I haven't one yet... but I'm always happy to practice, as a leader or a follower, any ballroom dancing moves with people if there's enough space and they ask nicely :)

[ElaineB]

Simon and I are taking private lessons only. When we first started, we joined in half way through a silver medal class and found itdifficult to keep up.

We have to dance 3 Latin and 3 Ballroom for our silver medals and have chosen the cha cha cha, rhumba :yum: and samba for the latin and waltz, foxtrot and the quickstep for the ballroom. After that, we aim to have a bash at the others (and go for gold :eek: ). We will probably work on the ones that really appeal and bin the others (that's today's theory anyway!)

We are lucky in that we have two different teachers - one for latin and one for ballroom and can get out of them as much as we want, although I think that it must be basics, basics, basics before we learn to fly right!

Getting one heck of a buzz out of it at the moment.............talking of which, practice tonight! :clap:

Elaine

[David Bailey]

.. it is tough to learn all 10 dances, but most schools do build you up gradually, especially if you go to medallists' classes which require fewer dances for the lower grades.

I'm not saying they shouldn't all be taught - and I'm certainly not saying "only teach the easy ones".

But the grouping of these 10 dances is unnatural - no sane person would equate Rumba and Samba, for example. This organisation is just done to support the formal, academic and examination-oriented structure of Ballroom Dancing, not to support the development of these dances.

In fact, I'd put money on the proposition that these dances have not progressed, certainly not compared to the progression in other individual dance forms (AT, WCS, salsa and yes even MJ) over the past couple of decades.

There's no reason, none at all, why dances such as Cha cha shouldn't be at least as popular as other individual dances, but I feel their development is shackled by the others. Dancing should be fun, for goodness sakes.

At the moment, all the innovations in partner dancing are clearly happening in the non-ballroom scene, surely that's a bit of a hint?

[MartinHarper]

Can you imagine MJ being as poplular as it is if you required everybody to learn AT, WCS, Lindy, Salsa, blues, with an equal weighting as MJ?

No, but you'd be a heck of a dancer when you finished. Some years later.

[El Salsero Gringo]

The Strictly No Sequins events at Ashtons taught only five dances, I think: Waltz, Quickstep, Social Foxtrot, Cha Cha and Rumba. I was quite happy with that subset.

[David Bailey]

The Strictly No Sequins events at Ashtons taught only five dances, I think: Waltz, Quickstep, Social Foxtrot, Cha Cha and Rumba. I was quite happy with that subset.
Does anyone know if that's ever coming back? The website (http://www.strictlynosequins.com/) hasn't been updated for ages :(

It'd be great if it re-started...

[Seahorse]

Does anyone know if that's ever coming back? The website (http://www.strictlynosequins.com/) hasn't been updated for ages :(

I heard a rumour that Hannes & Co had stopped working for Ceroc and were taking their classes elsewhere.

I had my first ballroom class on Weds evening which proved to be a exhilarating experience (I'm the excitable type), despite everyone else being a minimum of six months ahead of myself (appeared that many intermediates join the beginners class so they can concentrate on style etc - much the same with ceroc). It quickly became apparent that I was way out of my depth but hope to persist.

Have to say it was amusing (teacher was quite the raconteur) and quite different to other classes I've read of as we seemed to touch on several styles starting with the basic waltz (wondered if this was for my benefit), then to (I believe) tango and concluding with a jive routine which had us laughing. I can probably recall about 10% of the class and relied heavily on partners gently guiding me through moves. (I like a woman who knows her own mind :wink: ).

Still buzzing with the excitement I returned to south london to catch the freestyle at WH in Battersea and found the change to ceroc quite a bizarre experience as everyone was moving so quickly. Despite this, it was a good way to round off a very enjoyable evening.

[Juju]

Has this "all or nothing" approach helped kill off social ballroom dancing?

I've never done ballroom and know very little about it, but reading this I'd have to say yes. If I were to dabble - and I have considered it - I wouldn't want to be forced into doing dances I didn't like or couldn't get into. In particular, I wouldn't touch the Rumba with a ten-foot pole. Hate it.

[David Bailey]

In particular, I wouldn't touch the Rumba with a ten-foot pole. Hate it.
:confused: - but if you've never tried it, how do you know you hate it?

(Putting it into modern terms like young people do, Rumba is like a very slow salsa.)

[Kev F]

The Strictly No Sequins events at Ashtons taught only five dances, I think: Waltz, Quickstep, Social Foxtrot, Cha Cha and Rumba. I was quite happy with that subset.

This would be my choice too...and actually is!

The conversion between the basic steps/figures in Rumba/Cha-cha & Quickstep/Foxtrot means that you can get a real 'four for two' offer, which therefore makes these dances a natural choice.

Although, the principle of dropping two steps from cha-cha to become Rumba doesn't make it any easier. The style of the dance is very difficult to make look good and the fundementals of hip action etc become extremely complex when broken down...that's why I tried AT instead (Only joking DJ :D ) I'm not implying that the layers to each dance aren't as complex, but that I personally find the Rumba very challenging...but that's what I like about different dance forms, the challenge.

I think a good indication of the more appealing of the ten-dances is reflected in the social scene where Paso, Samba, Ballroom Tango, V-Waltz aren't played so often as the others.

Also, if the social scene of ballroom dancing is frequented by a larger number of older, seasoned & mature individuals, then there would be the inherent problems during, say the Samba, of hip joints dislocating, teeth falling out and wig slides.

But in summary......the balroom syllabus has been developed over a long period, by some of the worlds finest dancers and maybe the dedication required to learn all ten is a difficult challenge in this day and age. They say that it takes ten years to produce a competent, not good, ballroom dancer; so why would people want to spent ten years of their life learning ballroom to a competent level when they can learn ceroc in 'just one night!'. :devil:

[David Bailey]

Also, if the social scene of ballroom dancing is frequented by a larger number of older, seasoned & mature individuals, then there would be the inherent problems during, say the Samba, of hip joints dislocating, teeth falling out and wig slides.
It's sounding even more attractive by the day :rofl:


But in summary......the balroom syllabus has been developed over a long period, by some of the worlds finest dancers and maybe the dedication required to learn all ten is a difficult challenge in this day and age.
Sorry, but that's exactly my point.

Learning all ten dances to a competitive level - yes, that's a massive achievement. As is being a decathlete.

But, if the only time the 100m was run was in a decathlon, do you think many people would watch it? Or that many people would want to learn it? No - they'd see it as an interesting and admirable achievement, but not something that most people would want to learn. It'd kill the development of those sports, stone-dead.

There's no reason, none at all, why the development and innovation and progression of these dances are being stifled by the restrictions of the Ballroom Dance world. There's no reason, none at all, why dances such as Cha cha, Rumba, and others shouldn't be as popular as salsa - except that you can't learn Rumba; no-one's teaching it.


They say that it takes ten years to produce a competent, not good, ballroom dancer; so why would people want to spent ten years of their life learning ballroom to a competent level when they can learn ceroc in 'just one night!'. :devil:
So, what you're saying is that (because it takes ten years to learn to walk in AT), AT is ten times as hard as ballroom then? :na: :whistle:

Sounds about right to me. :innocent:

[DavidY]

No, but you'd be a heck of a dancer when you finished. Some years later.Not necessarily. In the same way as there's a limit to the number of moves I can remember in MJ, there's a limit to how much of different dance styles I can remember. I'm much worse at ballroom dancing now than I used to be - just because I learnt it in the past doesn't mean I can do it very well now.

Unless they spent several hours a week maintaining a level in all the dances, I think most people would forget too.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I've seen some of the teachers dancing a 'street' Cha Cha at one of the Salsa classes I've been to. Now that was an amazing thing to watch. None of the ballroom precision but all of the Salsa sizzle. It would be nice if someone ran a class combining Salsa, Merengue (yes, I know it's "easy"), Bachata, Cha Cha etc, with all the different music. Ditto freestyles that had a mix; instead of treating Merengue as an excuse to go the Bar, Bachata as an excuse to go to the lavatory and paying Salsa the rest of the night.

[Juju]

:confused: - but if you've never tried it, how do you know you hate it?

Boring to watch, plus I just can't do slow, smoochy, raunchy stuff - makes me cringe.

[David Bailey]

Boring to watch, plus I just can't do slow, smoochy, raunchy stuff - makes me cringe.
At my age, slow is really the only option :)

Rumba is slow, yes - but I wouldn't get too stressed about the hype on SCD, "dance of love", blah blah blah.

All dances are dances of love (some more so than others in certain clubs), in the right light.

No-one says you have to like it, but I think it's worth trying out - it's bloody tricky, believe me, and dancing slow well is (I think) much more difficult than dancing fast, you have to balance more.

[Juju]

At my age, slow is really the only option :)


No comment.... :wink:


All dances are dances of love ... in the right light.

Ooh, you're just a big softy aren't you? bless.


... it's bloody tricky, believe me, and dancing slow well is (I think) much more difficult than dancing fast, you have to balance more.

Hence my 'speciality' being dancing fast. Ahem.