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Gus
11th-October-2006, 08:39 AM
OK ... back to the old ODA ways ....... :wink:

Had a mad 20 minutes over the weekend when I thought seriously about getting back into competing ..... so, being a sad analyst I am I decided to look at what the criteria is to win and how best to achieve it. (PS .. much of this is based on review of dance competition vid and chats with some judges/dance coaches)

REQUIREMENTS (not weighted)

Ability to dance in time to music (some of the time)
Look good (whatever that really means)
Ability to throw partner into BIG MOVES on a regular basis
Ability to make sure judges are watching the BIG MOVES

...... urrr, thats about it

HOW TO ACHIEVE THAT

Female partner needs to have a 'proper' dance background
Need to dance about 4 times a week
Need to practice at least 5 hours a week with partner
Need to develop/acquire/plagiarise seriously flash moves


Think the key thing that struck me was just how much time and effort you need to commit if you're serious about making it :( OK ... the above list isn't as comprehensive as i could be but I seriously think it covers the key elements. Any views?

PS Note that the male dancer doesn't have to start off as being a star themselves. There are a number of really good competing males who were fairly average when they started getting serious about competing.

Patrick
11th-October-2006, 09:54 AM
OK ... back to the old ODA ways ....... :wink:

Had a mad 20 minutes over the weekend when I thought seriously about getting back into competing ..... so, being a sad analyst I am I decided to look at what the criteria is to win and how best to achieve it. (Think the key thing that struck me was just how much time and effort you need to commit if you're serious about making it .

You have overlooked the key requirement... Actually having a partner!

I have an Intermediates entry for Britrock going begging if anyone interested, my partner has pre-comp nerves.

Also, winning isn't necessarily the objective. I'm looking to improve my dancing and have an exciting time. I don't expect to win anything. Not yet anyway!

And you don't have to spend ages practising. I've got past the first round with different partners each time, with just a few hours practice. Or less... It does need at least one of you to be experienced though.

Patrick

BTW, you forgot Hitting the Breaks, basic musical interpretation even at intermediate level. Essential.

Trousers
11th-October-2006, 10:01 AM
A more than average portion of vanity.














allegedly!

:whistle:

Paul F
11th-October-2006, 10:12 AM
This may be a little OTT for some people but I would reccommend the book "Dance to your maximum" by Maximiliaan Winkelhuis.

Although geared towards competing in ballroom comps (one of the very few good ones around) it goes into detail about practice sessions, planning as well as consistent factors across all competitions - audience, judges and so on.
Most of it pobably wont translate to MJ comps (not having done any MJ comps I wouldnt know) but some of it will be useful.

Gus
11th-October-2006, 10:15 AM
And you don't have to spend ages practising. I've got past the first round with different partners each time, with just a few hours practice. Or less... It does need at least one of you to be experienced though.Urrrr .. the thread was about SUCCESSFULL competition ... i.e. getting placed. I know how much time the likes of Phil & Yuko, Will & Kate and Simon & Nicole put in ....


BTW, you forgot Hitting the Breaks, basic musical interpretation even at intermediate level. Essential.No, didn't forget ... I've reviewed the tapes .... musical interpretation ISN'T a key success factor!

Patrick
11th-October-2006, 11:07 AM
Urrrr .. the thread was about SUCCESSFULL competition ... i.e. getting placed. I know how much time the likes of Phil & Yuko, Will & Kate and Simon & Nicole put in ....

No, didn't forget ... I've reviewed the tapes .... musical interpretation ISN'T a key success factor!

OK, point taken. Just that my criteria for success don't include winning, at the moment, as I know I haven't reached that standard. Getting to a semifinal is success enough for me at the mo!

As it happensI just had some private competition coaching from well known teachers/competitors/judges at Breeze this weekend. One conclusion I made is that since different judges have different criteria, whatever you do can't be guaranteed to impress everybody.

I was told a story of well known couple who threw as much time/mony/effort into prep as you can imagine, "should" have won, but didn't...

For these judges, musical interpreation was key, they would be unlikely to promote someone to the next round if they danced through a break, even at first round intermediate level. But I also know some couples have won with poor interpretation, to the chagrin of many judges!

The judging criteria and method are well known and published anyway - they're on the Britrock website.

jivecat
11th-October-2006, 11:15 AM
Urrrr .. the thread was about SUCCESSFULL competition
No need to take this tone, the same arguments surely apply to the pre-success phase.

musical interpretation ISN'T a key success factor!

In my extremely limited experience of MJ comps, some of the music seemed to have been chosen to prevent any musical interpretation inadvertently taking place.:whistle:

TheTramp
11th-October-2006, 11:19 AM
No, didn't forget ... I've reviewed the tapes .... musical interpretation ISN'T a key success factor!

Depends on who's judging! Lots of judges have different criteria!

I judged recently in the Brisbane competition. In one category of the DWAS (they have different levels for DWAS there, as well as the leads and follows being judged independantly in the earlier rounds), I was consistantly marking down one girl who was dancing completely off the beat. Yet she kept getting through.

I spoke to a well-known (even over here) fellow judge about it, who admitted that she was dancing off the beat, but commented on her lovely style! I think that she got to the final - definately to the semi-final!

When I'm judging, style and musicality definitely impress me over flashy moves. Unfortunately, as Gus says, that isn't always the case. Maybe it's why I don't get asked to judge over here in the big competitions! :D

Lory
11th-October-2006, 11:53 AM
I think animated facial expressions and being slightly extrovert, so as to be able to engage with the judges, audience and each other, gets couples noticed and keeps people's attention on them, also, I think spectacularly sparkly costumes do help, even if its just for something to be remembered by :waycool:

Patrick
11th-October-2006, 12:25 PM
I think animated facial expressions and being slightly extrovert, so as to be able to engage with the judges, audience and each other, gets couples noticed and keeps people's attention on them, also, I think spectacularly sparkly costumes do help, even if its just for something to be remembered by :waycool:

Yes, sparkly costumes are nice. I came perilously close to actually wearing sequins last time... fortunately the costume wasn't quite ready! (I once told friends that if I start wearing sequins, I've really lost it...)

One judges top tip was £100 of good coaching gets you more chance of winning than £100 of glitter...

But even £1,000,000 of coaching doesn't guarantee winning.

(If you're that flush, you could try bribing the panel. That never happens in real life does it? :whistle: :whistle: )

straycat
11th-October-2006, 12:32 PM
O

I was told a story of well known couple who threw as much time/mony/effort into prep as you can imagine, "should" have won, but didn't...


Who was that then? :devil:

Patrick
11th-October-2006, 12:46 PM
Who was that then? :devil:

It was that chap Gus... :wink: :D

Fortunately, I don't remember which of the mega famous couples it was, But its probably happened to them all. Even Phil and Yuko don't win every time.

What I learn from that:- its a mistake to make Winning your primary criterion for success.

You will end up disappointed most of the time. You will probably fall out with your partner. You will spend all of your time and money on chasing something which won't make you happy! :clap: :clap:

(My fave tune just came on the radio!... :clap: :clap: If I can get a fab new partner 2nite and practice 24 hrs a day, we may still be in with a chance of winning Brit Rock on Sat!) OTOH, I may go visit my mum. And chat up Fletch a bit more...

David Bailey
11th-October-2006, 01:01 PM
OK, point taken. Just that my criteria for success don't include winning, at the moment, as I know I haven't reached that standard. Getting to a semifinal is success enough for me at the mo!
:confused: So what, you're aiming to be a semi-finalist? Sorry, but the ultimate "competition success" is "winning" - the further you get, the more successful you are. So I think the thread title is pretty clear.


As it happensI just had some private competition coaching from well known teachers/competitors/judges at Breeze this weekend. One conclusion I made is that since different judges have different criteria, whatever you do can't be guaranteed to impress everybody.
Absolutely true, everyone's different, and even more so in MJ than other dances I reckon, because it's such a loose dance with so many different influences. Is a WCS-style couple "better" than a Jango-style couple, or a Ceroc-classic-style couple?


The judging criteria and method are well known and published anyway - they're on the Britrock website.
This, to me, is the most important crtierion - know the rules. Know the "hoops" you have to go through for each competition, and work towards those hoops.

David Bailey
11th-October-2006, 01:04 PM
REQUIREMENTS (not weighted)

Ability to dance in time to music (some of the time)
Look good (whatever that really means)
Ability to throw partner into BIG MOVES on a regular basis
Ability to make sure judges are watching the BIG MOVES



This list seems bang on the money to me. I'd add the "Know the rules" point, but I think that summarises most of the key criteria.

Basic dance ability, attention to visuals, crowd-pleasers and attention-grabbing techniques - sums it up to me.

Patrick
11th-October-2006, 01:11 PM
Think the key thing that struck me was just how much time and effort you need to commit if you're serious about making it :( OK ... the above list isn't as comprehensive as i could be but I seriously think it covers the key elements. Any views?

.

Hi Gus. OK serious answer. I don't think your list is anywhere near the mark, and I don't have the time to respond properly. Though here's acouple of points.

If you are really serious about winning, you don't have to spend lots of time and money, but you do need to be cute. For instance, you need to know who will be on the judging panel, what they are looking for individually, and play to them specifically.

Also, unless your freestyle skills are awesome, it helps to know who the DJ will be and the kind of music they will play. Those in the know will be practising to the tracks they know are likely to be played.

I'm not that serious! (yet)

Patrick :cheers:

Patrick
11th-October-2006, 01:27 PM
:confused: So what, you're aiming to be a semi-finalist? Sorry, but the ultimate "competition success" is "winning" - the further you get, the more successful you are. So I think the thread title is pretty clear.


I absolutely don't agree! I refer the honourable gentleman to my subsequent post #12. At the moment I would be quite satisfied with semi in a national comp, delighted if I got to the final. A great success. I would be deluding myself if I thought I could win a national comp on 1 years experience. But next year, who knows?

I can easily imagine going through Int, Adv, Showcase, and Open levels, and never being placed once. Would I have failed? Yes winning would be nice. Final also nice. Semi final nice. OK, going out first heat is a bit pants. But I do think it's a big mistake to make winning your main objective. Setting youself up for a fall. :flower:

David Bailey
11th-October-2006, 01:38 PM
I absolutely don't agree! I refer the honourable gentleman to my subsequent post #12.

I can easily imagine going through Int, Adv, Showcase, and Open levels, and never being placed once. Would I have failed? Yes winning would be nice. Final also nice. Semi final nice. OK, going out first heat is a bit pants. But I do think it's a big mistake to make it your main objective. Setting youself up for a fall. :flower:
Sorry, I still don't see it. Competitions are, err, competitive - you're trying to win, you're aiming to win, you want to beat the others and be number one. Or have I missed some fundamental point here?

It's like saying "I'm a social gambler" - proper gamblers love social gamblers, they're also called "suckers"... :)

On a different note, the Britrock competition has a massive amount of information on the judging system - see http://www.jivelive.com/britrock/judging.html. It's probably worth looking at that as a good starting template, although it doesn't look as if the proposed "rolling DWAS" system will be implemented, unfortunately.

Actually, a third point - how could you best prepare to enter a DWAS competition, especially a rolling one? That's an interesting question I think...

TheTramp
11th-October-2006, 01:46 PM
Sorry, I still don't see it. Competitions are, err, competitive - you're trying to win, you're aiming to win, you want to beat the others and be number one. Or have I missed some fundamental point here?

Yes.

If only the people who realistically thought that they were in with a serious chance of winning actually competed, the competitions would be a lot smaller than they currently are. And would probably stop running after the first year with massive losses.

People compete for a lot of reasons other than winning: For fun. To measure themselves against the majority of people (ie. not just the winners). For experience. To do better than they did previously. Because they like the 'show-off' feeling of competing.

In fact, I'd say, if most people are realistic about their chances of winning, then most AREN'T competing to win.

ducasi
11th-October-2006, 01:48 PM
:confused: So what, you're aiming to be a semi-finalist? Sorry, but the ultimate "competition success" is "winning" - the further you get, the more successful you are. So I think the thread title is pretty clear. Nope – the thread title says "successfully compete", not "competition success".

To successfully compete, you need to have a partner, enter the competition, pay the money, turn up on the day, make your way to the dance floor at the appropriate time and dance while the music plays – and there you go you've successfully managed to compete! :clap:

But of course, that's not the question Gus asked. He was interested in "what the criteria is to win and how best to achieve it."

Someone once told me that in the intermediate competition, the judges expect flashy moves. In the advanced competition, they expect musicality. And in the open category they want flashy moves done with musicality.

Not sure of the validity of this. I'd much rather musicality was expected and rewarded in all categories above flashiness, but that may be because that's where my strengths lie... :)

Patrick
11th-October-2006, 02:03 PM
Nope – the thread title says "successfully compete", not "competition success".

Someone once told me that in the intermediate competition, the judges expect flashy moves. In the advanced competition, they expect musicality. And in the open category they want flashy moves done with musicality.

Not sure of the validity of this. I'd much rather musicality was expected and rewarded in all categories above flashiness, but that may be because that's where my strengths lie... :)

The standard of some couples entering Intermediates is so high that you need flashy moves with musicality, even to win intermediates. At higher levels, you need moves nobody has ever done before.

But you are right. The judging criteria don't have musicality as the No.1 priority, which it should be in many peoples opinion. I know one judge who excluded a couple at the first heat, who usually win. They asked why. "Well, when you came out of that fancy drop, you weren't on the beat". Sadly, on big judging panels, common sense doesn't always prevail.

David Bailey
11th-October-2006, 03:10 PM
If only the people who realistically thought that they were in with a serious chance of winning actually competed, the competitions would be a lot smaller than they currently are. And would probably stop running after the first year with massive losses.
You could make that exact same statement about any large competition, in any sport, at any time. By definition, a competition is something where people attempt to be "better" than the others.


In fact, I'd say, if most people are realistic about their chances of winning, then most AREN'T competing to win.
But if you asked most competitors what they were trying to achieve, they'd mostly say they were trying to win. Now, OK, most would say they didn't realistically expect to win - but that's the aim, to do as well as possible, surely?


People compete for a lot of reasons other than winning: For fun. To measure themselves against the majority of people (ie. not just the winners). For experience. To do better than they did previously. Because they like the 'show-off' feeling of competing.
Or because they're Evil, of course. Competitions being Evil.

(Can't believe I left it so long to say that in this thread...)

I also don't believe competitions are "fun", considering the stress levels, the effort, the downsides of not winning, the controversies, etc. But maybe I'm just a grumpy old git.

TheTramp
11th-October-2006, 03:30 PM
You could make that exact same statement about any large competition, in any sport, at any time. By definition, a competition is something where people attempt to be "better" than the others.


But if you asked most competitors what they were trying to achieve, they'd mostly say they were trying to win. Now, OK, most would say they didn't realistically expect to win - but that's the aim, to do as well as possible, surely?


Or because they're Evil, of course. Competitions being Evil.

(Can't believe I left it so long to say that in this thread...)

I also don't believe competitions are "fun", considering the stress levels, the effort, the downsides of not winning, the controversies, etc. But maybe I'm just a grumpy old git.

Agreed. But being better than others, doesn't mean that you have to necessarily strive to be better than ALL the others. For a lot of people, getting to the 2nd round is their objective. Or simply competing against themselves, to be better than they were at the previous competition.

Of course, in all aspects of competition, there are those that stand no chance. Yeovil Town (random choice) really don't have any aspirations to win the FA Cup. But they still enter, knowing that is the case. I think that most people have the aim to do as well as realistically possible. Which, as previously stated, in most cases isn't to win. Else, there's going to be a lot of very disappointed people.

Of course, there are those that don't find competitions fun. And they probably stay away from them. Or come away from them disappointed. I remember one couple that spent a lot of money on improving their dancing, and then not getting through the first round at a lot of competitions. After the results were posted, they'd usually leave, and miss the rest of the day. And I think that's quite sad. A fair level of disappointment might be expected if you were expecting to do well (possibly unrealistically), but letting it ruin your day isn't a good thing.

I always have fun at competitions. Whether I win, lose, whatever. But then, I don't put much effort into them in terms of practice etc. I don't mind not winning (though, winning is always nice of course), and it's always nice to see lots of people that I only get to see at the big events. Maybe I'm not just a grumpy old git! :flower:

ducasi
11th-October-2006, 03:35 PM
But if you asked most competitors what they were trying to achieve, they'd mostly say they were trying to win. I very much disagree. That's not my experience. Time for a poll?


I also don't believe competitions are "fun", considering the stress levels, the effort, the downsides of not winning, the controversies, etc. But maybe I'm just a grumpy old git. Sometimes stress and effort can result in fun. Ever wondered why people go rock-climbing?

jivecat
11th-October-2006, 03:40 PM
I absolutely don't agree! I refer the honourable gentleman to my subsequent post #12. At the moment I would be quite satisfied with semi in a national comp, delighted if I got to the final. A great success. I would be deluding myself if I thought I could win a national comp on 1 years experience. But next year, who knows?

I can easily imagine going through Int, Adv, Showcase, and Open levels, and never being placed once. Would I have failed? Yes winning would be nice. Final also nice. Semi final nice. OK, going out first heat is a bit pants. But I do think it's a big mistake to make winning your main objective. Setting youself up for a fall. :flower:

:yeah: And if anyone went into their first competitions with being placed as their only goal you'd either think they were super-talented or an arrogant prat. Or even both.:devil:

Realistically any one who hopes to succeed even on their own terms will be working towards this



*Ability to dance in time to music (some of the time)
*Look good (whatever that really means)
*Ability to throw partner into BIG MOVES on a regular basis
*Ability to make sure judges are watching the BIG MOVES

even if they haven't achieved it yet.

I would add further factors

*Originality/creativity (without appearing forced or gimmicky). I'd quote that Mouth-to-Mouth routine as an example of this, or that Adam & Tas routine about the Robot.

*Charm/ confidence/ star quality.

*The ability to make the dance appear totally smooth and effortless.

Yliander
11th-October-2006, 04:14 PM
To successfully compete takes ..... in one word - effort

Blueshoes
11th-October-2006, 04:29 PM
Whilst reading another thread I started wondering whether letting the lady lead a couple of moves half way through a routine in competition would be viewed in a positive light by the judges. Anyone care to comment?

Simon
11th-October-2006, 08:03 PM
HOW TO ACHIEVE THAT
[LIST]
Female partner needs to have a 'proper' dance background

PS Note that the male dancer doesn't have to start off as being a star themselves. There are a number of really good competing males who were fairly average when they started getting serious about competing.This is a really interesting perspective. I think it could be true!


also, I think spectacularly sparkly costumes do help, even if its just for something to be remembered by :waycool:Having competed for a few years, the change that has struck me most is the increasing efforts put in by competitors to their appearance. A couple of years ago you could comfortably compete dressed smartly, now you need an outfit/costume that catches the eye and this can represent quite an investment of time and money to get ready. Appearance is usually a judging criteria so the points at stake could make all the difference.

Gadget
11th-October-2006, 08:29 PM
Whilst reading another thread I started wondering whether letting the lady lead a couple of moves half way through a routine in competition would be viewed in a positive light by the judges. Anyone care to comment?

If you're dancing well together, how would anyone tell?

Blueshoes
12th-October-2006, 12:57 AM
If you're dancing well together, how would anyone tell?

Good point! What I meant was completely swapping roles, ie the lady taking the leaders part and the man assuming the role of follower. Most competition rules say the leader and follower can be of either sex (I presume they have to under sex discrimination legislation), but what would the judges make of it?

David Bailey
12th-October-2006, 08:08 AM
Most competition rules say the leader and follower can be of either sex (I presume they have to under sex discrimination legislation), but what would the judges make of it?

True - again. looking at the Britrock rules (http://www.jivelive.com/britrock/rules.html), they say: "Couples & double-trouble can be any combination of sexes."

I don't know if this is a requirement under sex discrimination legislation or not - I doubt if there's been anything in court about that sort of thing, and you could definitely argue the "gender in dancing is a necessary requirement" case.

Hopefully, the judges will judge the dancing, based on the dancing. Having said that, I think 2 guys (or 2 girls) competing as a couple would need to create a new "feel" for the dance, in terms of visuals and choreography, so I imagine it'd be much harder work.

Patrick
12th-October-2006, 09:13 AM
If you're dancing well together, how would anyone tell?
Re. the role reversal mid flow, I hope the judges would notice, or someone's not doing their job! Demonstrating clear lead and follow is a primary requirement in MJ comps, so it should be obvious who's in charge. I don't think it would matter which partner is leading, as long as there is 1 and only 1 leader at any time. Zero or 2 leaders happens, but gets nil points.


Good point! What I meant was completely swapping roles, ie the lady taking the leaders part and the man assuming the role of follower. Most competition rules say the leader and follower can be of either sex (I presume they have to under sex discrimination legislation), but what would the judges make of it?

Reversed roles is sometimes a fun category, it was at the Scottish Champs. Can't imagine it would make any difference to the judging if you did this in any other category, and hard to forbid it I would think these days. In practice this hardly happens because men are not skilled at following on the whole, although plenty of ladies can lead well. A highlight at the Breeze weekend was Taz and CentrAlex freestyling reversed roles throughout Sunday evening. Taz is clearly a better lead than most guys, and Alex as a follower is stunning. Whether they could win an Open competition would be interesting to see!


True - again. looking at the Britrock rules (http://www.jivelive.com/britrock/rules.html), they say: "Couples & double-trouble can be any combination of sexes."

I don't know if this is a requirement under sex discrimination legislation or not - I doubt if there's been anything in court about that sort of thing, and you could definitely argue the "gender in dancing is a necessary requirement" case.

Hopefully, the judges will judge the dancing, based on the dancing. Having said that, I think 2 guys (or 2 girls) competing as a couple would need to create a new "feel" for the dance, in terms of visuals and choreography, so I imagine it'd be much harder work.

I think it would be very difficult to require conventional gender couples these days, not because of legislation specifically. It would just be outrageous to forbid non-traditional combinations in the current social climate.

Britrock were behind the times here, they only just updated this rule from 1 guy/2 ladies. Any combination of sexes in Double Trouble has been acceptable for a while, especially 3 guys or 3 ladies. They changed the rule this year so Roger Chin could enter his Tag Jive routine, 2guys and 1 lady.

There is still stigma attached to 2 guys dancing as a couple I think, though the first competition I entered had an all male couple. They were going to dance with the lead wearing a thong, but the organisers discouraged that! It was a fun entry, I believe it happened because the lead couldn't find a female partner. Great entertainment, but they didn't get through the first round.

David Bailey
12th-October-2006, 10:38 AM
Taz is clearly a better lead than most guys, and Alex as a follower is stunning. Whether they could win an Open competition would be interesting to see!
But, you have to ask, why would they try? It's a great learning technique, but really it's just a party trick otherwise - if they wanted to compete, they'd find it much easier to do it the other way round, I suspect.

Unless there are women who specifically want to be leaders only, and men who want to be followers only - and I'm not aware of any of these in MJ - then why bother making it harder?


I think it would be very difficult to require conventional gender couples these days, not because of legislation specifically. It would just be outrageous to forbid non-traditional combinations in the current social climate.
Yeah, but there are exceptions - not many, admittedly. And I was thinking of the whole "gender-balancing" debate for weekenders; I think that's now accepted as legal practice, despite the fact that technically it discriminates based on gender.

What is and isn't "legal" in gender discrimination tends to be decided by the courts at the moment - look at the Labour all-women shortlists; they were implemented and then judged illegal later on.


There is still stigma attached to 2 guys dancing as a couple I think, though the first competition I entered had an all male couple. They were going to dance with the lead wearing a thong, but the organisers discouraged that! It was a fun entry, I believe it happened because the lead couldn't find a female partner. Great entertainment, but they didn't get through the first round.
Lots of homophobia in the UK, sure. Personally, I don't like seeing two guys dancing and one of them dancing "camp", it just looks silly to me.

In my opinion, where a two-guy couple works well is in emphasising the combined strength of the partners - so lots of fast movements, spins and so on. If you're masculine in a dance, then be masculine - anything else is just gimmicky.

MartinHarper
12th-October-2006, 12:06 PM
Unless there are women who specifically want to be leaders only, and men who want to be followers only - and I'm not aware of any of these in MJ

I'd be very happy to be a follower only, but the practicalities don't work so well. I think I've met a grand total of three women who only lead. One rock 'n' roller, one jazz jiver, one line dancer.

Will
12th-October-2006, 02:16 PM
Urrrr .. the thread was about SUCCESSFULL competition ... i.e. getting placed. I know how much time the likes of Phil & Yuko, Will & Kate and Simon & Nicole put in ....
To answer the original thread question, may I say that in my opinion, the most important single factor is :-

1) Practice (with a regular partner) - no suprises there...

However, the Big No.2 that no-one has mentioned, something that all 3 of the above couples that Gus has mentioned have in common is :-

2) Hiring David & Lily Barker for private lessons.

Now I know it's not the first time that David has been referred to as "The Big No. 2", but (whilst I hate to blow David's trumpet) David & Lily have a perspective on dance competition that is pretty much second-to-none in the Ceroc / MJ world. They don't come cheap, but if you want to be the best, you need to hire the best.

Will

straycat
12th-October-2006, 02:20 PM
I hate to blow David's trumpet

I'm sure he enjoys it though... :devil:

Patrick
12th-October-2006, 03:13 PM
However, the Big No.2 that no-one has mentioned, something that all 3 of the above couples that Gus has mentioned have in common is :-

2) Hiring David & Lily Barker for private lessons.

Will

Well actually, someone has...



One judges top tip was £100 of good coaching gets you more chance of winning than £100 of glitter...

(But even £1,000,000 of coaching doesn't guarantee winning).


OK not David & Lily specifically, but the best you can find/afford. I understand D&L are not doing much teaching/coaching at the moment, so you would be lucky to get them anyway!

I also wonder if it is worth getting the very best coaching if you are not ready to take on board what they might say (yet). I had the surreal experience of getting 1 to 1 help in my first ever Lindy class from a World Champs couple. It was good, but I was in no way ready to do even the most basic things they suggested. Anybody could have said 'stamp your feet!', which was about all I could take in that day. (Immediately after, I had my first ever WCS class. Paul Warden said 'don't stamp your feet!'... I was a bit :confused: :confused: :eek: )

But both classes were inspirational, probably that is worth paying for.

Alice
12th-October-2006, 03:27 PM
I had the surreal experience of getting 1 to 1 help in my first ever Lindy class from a World Champs couple. It was good, but I was in no way ready to do even the most basic things they suggested. Anybody could have said 'stamp your feet!', which was about all I could take in that day. (Immediately after, I had my first ever WCS class. Paul Warden said 'don't stamp your feet!'... I was a bit :confused: :confused: :eek: )

But both classes were inspirational, probably that is worth paying for.
MJC??? :whistle:

Patrick
12th-October-2006, 03:45 PM
Re: Taz & Alex


But, you have to ask, why would they try? It's a great learning technique, but really it's just a party trick otherwise - if they wanted to compete, they'd find it much easier to do it the other way round, I suspect.

Unless there are women who specifically want to be leaders only, and men who want to be followers only - and I'm not aware of any of these in MJ - then why bother making it harder?


Obviously, it would be up to Taz & Alex to decide if they were interested in competing. But they were getting serious suggestions about doing a Showcase, not just as a party trick.

AFAIK, Alex has won pretty well everything going as a leader with Emma, so maybe he'll fancy a new challenge sometime? If he wanted to do it, I think it would set a good example that its OK for men to be followers, whether led by a man or a lady.

Whether they win or not isn't really the issue, now I come to think of it. The reasons for bothering in my view (apart from having fun, which is what it's all about) are:

It would set a good example that male followers/female leads is acceptable
It would be interesting to see how they were judged against 'mere mortals' dancing the 'normal' way.

I certainly will be dancing with Alex next time we meet. And Taz too, but I'm not quite ready for that reversed roles thing myself...:wink: Actually, like most guys, I haven't learned how to do it yet, but I will do. I'm sure Taz would make a great teacher.

I am a worse follower than a beginner with 2 left feet on their first night. A taxi dancer trying to demo a move to me said in her inimitable way, which always inspired me (not): "God Robert, you're a crap follower!" Well she got my name right! :wink:

Patrick :flower:

Patrick
12th-October-2006, 04:04 PM
MJC??? :whistle:

Well, g'day, 'struth, 'n' tie me kangaroo down sport!

Could it be we have already met, young Alice? :eek: :rolleyes: :grin: :clap:

Do u think Rebel Yell will be as good as MJC? Still time to change my mind... (just) :confused:

cerocmetro
13th-October-2006, 03:13 AM
I still have one big problem with Modern JIve competitions, "what are we judging?"

My point is that unless we have a definition of what the moves are and what the style is, it is all very subjective.

The closest we have come to a fair competition is the beginners moves only in the Champs this year. At least it was clear what the moves were supposed to be.

I am not sure what other dance comps are so open about the moves and style.

Having said that, it helps to know who the judges are at any given comp in Ceroc/modern JIve. Some judges prefer big moves, some style technique. Some care about dancing on the beat some dont think it is important.

Some comps have non modern jive judges. What are they looking for?

In my mind to win a modern jive comp takes, a good chemistry between the partners, some nice unique moves, a good presence and a lot of luck.:sick:

Adam

Patrick
13th-October-2006, 07:46 AM
I still have one big problem with Modern JIve competitions, "what are we judging?"

My point is that unless we have a definition of what the moves are and what the style is, it is all very subjective.

Yes, but dance is an art, not a science, so whether a dance is 'good' or not is bound to be subjective to some extent. Which is why there are several judges on the panel, who will hopefully come to a consensus based on current perceptions of what a good dance looks like. Doesn't always work of couse, eg the current tendency to prefer flash moves over musicality.


The closest we have come to a fair competition is the beginners moves only in the Champs this year. At least it was clear what the moves were supposed to be.

I actually find the rules around Ceroc X to be the least clear of all. If I recall, you actually get disqualified if you don't stick to the set moves. But how much musical interpretation can you put on, say a First Move, before the judges say it's not a First Move any more? I've no idea, and probably wouldn't enter Ceroc X unless I was clearer about this. Innovation good, but disqualification bad!


I am not sure what other dance comps are so open about the moves and style.

I understand that in ballroom competitions, there is a very precise expectation of the moves and how they should be executed. The downside of this is that it discourages innovation, encourages stagnation. (as in the film "Strictly Ballroom") One of the great things about Ceroc is that the moves and styles continually develop, and absorb bits from other dance forms. If the expectation in MJ competitions were too precisely defined, it would discourage innovation.


Having said that, it helps to know who the judges are at any given comp in Ceroc/modern JIve. Some judges prefer big moves, some style technique. Some care about dancing on the beat some dont think it is important.

Some comps have non modern jive judges. What are they looking for?

True. If you are clever, you will adapt what you do according to who is judging. But hopefully, a well balanced panel will come to a generally acceptable conclusion. Mostly!


In my mind to win a modern jive comp takes, a good chemistry between the partners, some nice unique moves, a good presence and a lot of luck.:sick:
Adam


I think the luck element must be a large part of the excitement. If the luck element were not there, the results would usually be a foregone conclusion. Eg, the most skilled, best prepared couple would always win. Not very exciting. As it is, there's always the chance that the judges will see the hotshots mistakes, and miss yours! Or just be bowled over by your costume and smile...
Patrick :cheers:

David Bailey
13th-October-2006, 08:58 AM
The closest we have come to a fair competition is the beginners moves only in the Champs this year. At least it was clear what the moves were supposed to be.
Ahh, you're just saying that because the winners were Finchley-ites :na:

I'd say the closest to a "fair" competition is a rolling DWAS - but then it all hinges on what you define as fair.


Having said that, it helps to know who the judges are at any given comp in Ceroc/modern JIve. Some judges prefer big moves, some style technique. Some care about dancing on the beat some dont think it is important.
That sounds sensible - knowing the dance background of the judges helps, I presume.


Some comps have non modern jive judges. What are they looking for?
:yeah: - why have Britrock got the SDF finallist as a judge? :confused:


Doesn't always work of couse, eg the current tendency to prefer flash moves over musicality.
I'm pretty sure that tendency (such as it is) has been around for, well, ever.


I actually find the rules around Ceroc X to be the least clear of all. If I recall, you actually get disqualified if you don't stick to the set moves. But how much musical interpretation can you put on, say a First Move, before the judges say it's not a First Move any more? I've no idea, and probably wouldn't enter Ceroc X unless I was clearer about this. Innovation good, but disqualification bad!
I think Ceroc X is much clearer than any other competition - whether it's "fairer" is open to debate of course - in that you get a set of moves you can do. If you then decide to experiment and push the boundaries, that's your choice; you may be rewarded or penalised, but that's why they call it experimentation.

Gus
13th-October-2006, 09:41 AM
I think Ceroc X is much clearer than any other competition - whether it's "fairer" is open to debate of course - in that you get a set of moves you can do. If you then decide to experiment and push the boundaries, that's your choice; you may be rewarded or penalised, but that's why they call it experimentation.OK ... maybe we have a choice.

a) Declare that Ceroc dance is a very limited dance form, limited to only the basic moves per the CTA handbook and ignore the last 20 years of fusion with the more establishes 'proper' dance styles

OR

b) Accept that MJ is now a hybrid dance form that has outstripped the knowledge of his originators and that MOST CTA instructors no longer are at the cutting edge and so we need to find a new source of judges.

I find it interesting that MJ is the only (AFAIK) competition art form where regularly some of the judges have far less competition or dance experience than the competitors they are judging. :confused:

OK ... I know that may be an extreme view (and slightly off thread) but I feel that the quality of decision is directly proportionate to the quality of judges. I would love to see the line up of

Dave Barker
Lily Barker
Viktor
Kate
Amir
Sue Freeman
Roger Chin
Phil Webb
These people have competed/coached/developed MJ and their range and differing viewpoints would surely lead to a better decision .... once of course they had agreed on what MJ was ... :whistle:

David Bailey
13th-October-2006, 10:19 AM
a) Declare that Ceroc dance is a very limited dance form, limited to only the basic moves per the CTA handbook and ignore the last 20 years of fusion with the more establishes 'proper' dance styles
I was referring to the "Ceroc X" (or "Ceroc Basics") competition only, not to any others.


I find it interesting that MJ is the only (AFAIK) competition art form where regularly some of the judges have far less competition or dance experience than the competitors they are judging. :confused:
If that's true (and I'm not sure if it is - got any data?), then maybe that just reflects tha paucity and newness of most MJ competitions.

If the MJ community wanted to get serious about judging, I presume there should be some kind of judge-training programme...

Lou
13th-October-2006, 11:17 AM
I would love to see the line up of

Dave Barker
Lily Barker
Viktor
Kate
Amir

That's not all that far off the typical Weston-Super-Mare Competition judges list.... (Ok, so you get Carol Haines instead of Viktor :) , and Will instead of Amir... :whistle: ;) )