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Trouble
8th-October-2006, 08:11 PM
My heart is in my mouth as im typing this but i was advised by another forum member that this may help my plight. i have reached a stage in dancing that i would love to progress to more difficulte moves and get my styling improved. i feel this can only be acheived if a fixed or regular partner can be found. Does anybody have any idea how this might be achieved. is there somewhere that caters for people looking for dancing partners,, any suggestions would be welcome...:flower:

Minnie M
8th-October-2006, 08:16 PM
IMO fixed partners are only helpful in progressing if you intend to compete.

I have noticed that good leads who obtain a fixed partner seem to change the way the lead as they have got used to dancing with one person :sick:

Feelingpink
8th-October-2006, 08:27 PM
My heart is in my mouth as im typing this but i was advised by another forum member that this may help my plight. i have reached a stage in dancing that i would love to progress to more difficulte moves and get my styling improved. i feel this can only be acheived if a fixed or regular partner can be found. Does anybody have any idea how this might be achieved. is there somewhere that caters for people looking for dancing partners,, any suggestions would be welcome...:flower:A fixed partner could help if you are both working toward the same goals and need to practise, but if you want to progress to more difficult moves & improve styling, why not find a new teacher, try out workshops/a weekender or perhaps have private lessons? It's great that you want to progress :hug:

Jivingdan
8th-October-2006, 08:27 PM
My heart is in my mouth as im typing this but i was advised by another forum member that this may help my plight. i have reached a stage in dancing that i would love to progress to more difficulte moves and get my styling improved. i feel this can only be acheived if a fixed or regular partner can be found. Does anybody have any idea how this might be achieved. is there somewhere that caters for people looking for dancing partners,, any suggestions would be welcome...:flower:

HI Trouble
congratulations on posting a thread. :respect:
I think the best advice I can give is just keep dancing until you find someone who you feel you dance well with and then ask them if they want to partner up for some extra time to help you improve and concentrate on some new moves etc. Finding the right person is difficult and just because someone is a good dancer does not necessarily mean that they will help you get better. Advertising on the forum can work to find a competition partner although that can be difficult to find someone in the right area.
To be honest I just think dancing with all the best dancers you can find will help you move on to the next level. Every dance you have has the potential to learn something about yout dancing.
Happy dancing and good luck finding a partner

Trouble
8th-October-2006, 08:32 PM
awww your all so sweet. thanks for the advice but girls will know what i mean when i say it can be so frustrating to be so reliant on the men to progress. Its very frustrating to dance with men who know so many great moves but tend to stick to the same over and over. why do men do that... is it boredom, :what: laziness,,:yum: nerves :blush: ???? it is so fantastic to dance with a man that leads well and is adventurous. :respect:

i will keep looking for the adventurous dancers and hopefully improve myself at the same time. :D

Jivingdan
8th-October-2006, 08:36 PM
Where do you dance in essex?
I have been to a number of venues down there and i dont think we have met. I look forward to meeting and dancing with you. I promise to let my adventurous side out to play:wink:

Feelingpink
8th-October-2006, 08:37 PM
Most guys do end up dancing a particular repertoire of moves. As one or two of them have commented on here, the followers get to dance with a range of guys in a wide variety of moves, but they have the same moves all night. If this is what is frustrating you, then perhaps not a fixed partner????

Where do you dance now? How far would you be willing to travel to dance with more adventurous partners? For instance, have you been to any weekenders or a Monday Meltdown (I haven't been for months, but tends to have a great standard of dancers with adventurous music) and the FunkyLush events?

Trouble
8th-October-2006, 08:38 PM
i dont have a regular venue for lessons but for freestyle i have just started to go to Ashtons or cheshunt on a Friday night.

I was at Camba last week and am going again in November....i am starting to get a little more adventurous and am starting to travel around to find adventure......still not much about tho.

i look forward to trying you out. !!:wink:

Georgious dancer
8th-October-2006, 08:39 PM
Fixed partners are a strange thing. There are some people that feel it is wrong to do classes as fixed partners. I personally will do either but if it is a class or a workshop where I particularly want to learn a move or one aimed at a higher level I will opt to do it with a fixed partner, as I feel as though I learn more and also feel safer (especially with drops and dips etc). I don't have a permanent fixed partner but there are a small number of men that I will ask to do classes with me as a fixed couple.

If you can find someone who is willing to do fixed partners then go for it, but remember just because someone is a good freestyle dancer doesn't mean they will a good person to help you move your own dancing forward.

Out of interest how long have you been dancing for?

Feelingpink
8th-October-2006, 08:41 PM
PS From what I understand (but a leader could probably give a better answer), leaders have often 'learned' more moves than are in their everyday repertoire because it takes a while for moves that have just been learned to become part of a leader's repertoire - and perhaps a good & sympathetic follower who doesn't mind if the new move 'goes wrong' while it's still 'fresh'. Guys often find they do some moves over and over on auto when they are especially tired, too - and are usually full of apologies.

Trouble
8th-October-2006, 08:45 PM
ive been dancing for three years but never been brave enough to move away from cheshunt. I used to Taxi for them there but i think more for my personality than my dancing :D i have just started to get hungry for new experiences,, just done third Camba weekend and absolutely loved it,, met some very good dancers and realised there is so much more out there but must go find it. Do find though that the ones that think they are good are unapproachable,, scary even... so this is off putting. im hoping by using the forum i will recognise people at events and this will help me advance.

Minnie M
8th-October-2006, 09:25 PM
I have noticed at Southport and now at the Ceroc event at Camber Sands that classes have quite a large section for 'fixed partners'

This is quite effective, at least you stand a better chance of getting the routine with a fixed partner - however IMO it is better to practise your new moves in freestyle with many partners.

Or you could pay for a 'private' class with one of the teachers at the weekend.

As you are going to the JiveTime Camber in November, you could have a private class with your favourite teacher, come and see me and I can help you and book it for you (I will be at the reception area most of the day time)

Trouble
8th-October-2006, 09:28 PM
thanks i will. I would like that to learn how to finish off moves and make them look better/neater when i finish them. :grin:

David Bailey
8th-October-2006, 09:36 PM
i have reached a stage in dancing that i would love to progress to more difficulte moves and get my styling improved. i feel this can only be acheived if a fixed or regular partner can be found. Does anybody have any idea how this might be achieved. is there somewhere that caters for people looking for dancing partners,, any suggestions would be welcome...:flower:
As far as I know, there's no current "MJ partner matching" function - so this thread is as good as any in advertising I reckon.

I'd disagree that progression can only be made via a fixed partner, however.

Having a fixed partner is good if you want to compete, and is also good because it provides incentive to practise.

But there are lots of other ways to progress - Other dance styles, specialist workshops, private lessons, and of course lots of dancing :)

Trouble
8th-October-2006, 09:39 PM
competing is not something i have the balls for dance with a stranger is about my limit. thinking about it,, i think most of you are right, experience is the answer. This will mean travelling and trying new functions as often as possible. got to go find that adventurous dancer and fantastic lead cause they clearly arn't gonna come and find me. :D

Martin
8th-October-2006, 11:17 PM
This will mean travelling and trying new functions as often as possible. got to go find that adventurous dancer and fantastic lead cause they clearly arn't gonna come and find me. :D

True, IMHO the best dancers I know......... travel....

MartinHarper
8th-October-2006, 11:31 PM
You mention "styling", which is an excellent example of something that you don't need a fixed partner to learn. Heck, for much of it you don't need a partner at all.


Leaders have often 'learned' more moves than are in their everyday repertoire because it takes a while for moves that have just been learned to become part of a leader's repertoire.

Ya, there's a big difference between "learning" a move in some MJ class/workshop, and actually being able to lead it on followers who aren't expecting it, may never have danced it before, and may not be paying a whole lot of attention. Plus, everything else (musicality, floorcraft, connection, etc) becomes easier when sticking to known moves.

TheTramp
9th-October-2006, 12:47 AM
For some people, having a fixed partner can help - can sort of inspire and push each other. However, it can also sometimes be a detriment, if you get so used to dancing with that partner that you find it difficult to dance with other people.

All the other informatin offered in the thread so far is definitely good :worthy:

Best of luck in improving...

Feelingpink
9th-October-2006, 08:11 AM
... I would like that to learn how to finish off moves and make them look better/neater when i finish them. :grin:Kate Hargreaves (AKA Mrs "Will" on the forum) has done a ladies styling class in the past, which might be just the kind of thing you are looking for (I had to work that day :sad: so can't tell you exactly how it was) ... perhaps keep a lookout for others?

Trouble
9th-October-2006, 10:18 AM
Ladies Styling in ceroc/Jive is not something i have come across much at all. In Salsa i find it all the time. isnt that strange or is it me.

Dazzler
9th-October-2006, 10:27 AM
This will mean travelling and trying new functions as often as possible. got to go find that adventurous dancer and fantastic lead cause they clearly arn't gonna come and find me. :D

You could always try out the scene up here in Scotland :whistle: i know its a huge distance to travel but you may find that scottish dancers have a different style which may help you to progress :grin:

Either way i wish you all the best in your progression :respect:

David Bailey
9th-October-2006, 10:32 AM
Ladies Styling in ceroc/Jive is not something i have come across much at all.
Ceroc teaching is all about the moves, which are male-led; so classes are always taught from a male point of view.

OK, to be fair, most partner dances are taught like that - but most other dances will talk about what the follower should do.

The problem with the demo being only a demo (and not a teacher) is that ladies have to infer how to put style into their moves. Even the female Ceroc teachers don't talk much about women's styling - most of their style points are still directed to the man.


In Salsa i find it all the time. isnt that strange or is it me.
Some ladies in salsa could do with a bit less styling, and a bit more rhythm / following. Don't get me started on salsa bloody shines, it's not pretty. :rolleyes:

Trouble
9th-October-2006, 10:37 AM
Some ladies in salsa could do with a bit less styling, and a bit more rhythm / following. Don't get me started on salsa bloody shines, it's not pretty. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


really,, i always found Salsa Shines wonderful if they are done well and ive always found plenty of advice for us ladies when being taught on Styling.....tell me What is it you dont like about them,, i sometimes incorporate moves i have learnt in Salsa into my Ceroc dancing and i think it can look quite cute.....!!!:flower:

Trouble
9th-October-2006, 10:39 AM
You could always try out the scene up here in Scotland :whistle: i know its a huge distance to travel but you may find that scottish dancers have a different style which may help you to progress :grin:

Either way i wish you all the best in your progression :respect:

Different Style,, now thats something i would like to try out.... how so different... ?? do you twirl differently, is it your drops???:innocent:

Dazzler
9th-October-2006, 10:47 AM
Different Style,, now thats something i would like to try out.... how so different... ?? do you twirl differently, is it your drops???:innocent:
I must admit that i am not sure what it is that apparently makes us dance different but i read a thread on here when i first signed up about scottish style!..several people from above and below the border stated that we do things different...now i am in no way saying scottish style is better :whistle: but it may still pass on some small tips depending on the route you want to go!

I suppose i should also make a point of travelling down south as i have not managed to leave the scottish circuit yet!...so perhaps i would also find it beneficial to travel farther afield?

In inverness (my local venue) we have alot of dancers who started learning MJ in england and the ladies do find them very different to dance with :nice:

Trouble
9th-October-2006, 10:50 AM
I
I suppose i should also make a point of travelling down south as i have not managed to leave the scottish circuit yet!...so perhaps i would also find it beneficial to travel farther afield?

:nice:


yeah you should....absolutely...sooner the better...:flower:

Dazzler
9th-October-2006, 11:01 AM
right how bout if i make an effort to travel to a venue in your neck of the woods.....then you must also travel to a venue up here? :cool:

Seems like a fair exchange which would be beneficial to both parties!

But then again....what if i get there and realise i am actually a **** dancer?..:rofl:

Trouble
9th-October-2006, 11:03 AM
yes i think that would be good. you must of course wear your scottish get up tho....that way, even if your a **?" dancer (which im sure you are not) nobody will give a "">$ as they will be aving a look. :whistle: :whistle: is he isn't he...!!!!!!

:respect:

David Bailey
9th-October-2006, 11:34 AM
Re: shines:

tell me What is it you dont like about them,,
How long have you got?

OK, in a nutshell, shines are a form of hijacking - very few women in salsa bother to actually consider their partner during shines, despite having wrenched control from them. Most of the time, it's up to the leader to try to figure out when (8 beat? 16? 24? 3.5? :rolleyes: ) the lady's actually stopped, because she'll almost never bother trying to transfer control back to you.

Hell, most salsa women won't even understand that they're effectively leading when they do shines. :angry:


i sometimes incorporate moves i have learnt in Salsa into my Ceroc dancing and i think it can look quite cute.....!!!:flower:
Yes, I hear there's a salsa class at Finchley that does that on Mondays. But don't tell anyone, it's a Secret.

I've not seen anyone do salsa shines in Ceroc, however - is that what you mean?

Trouble
9th-October-2006, 11:47 AM
yes,, you can do the basic shines especially when you have a little slow number on..... (thats the music not the dress)

its nice to take the lead from the man sometimes, it wakes them up....:whistle:

Chef
9th-October-2006, 12:37 PM
Most guys do end up dancing a particular repertoire of moves. As one or two of them have commented on here, the followers get to dance with a range of guys in a wide variety of moves, but they have the same moves all night. If this is what is frustrating you, then perhaps not a fixed partner????

I, like many other leaders have a repetoire of "prefered moves" and the reason that I prefer them is that I can generally get them to work with most people. There are many other moves taht I can do and would like to do but choose not to do for some or all of the following reasons.

1) If your partner has floppy arms then you cannot provide subtle leads and have a realistic hope that you will remain in control of your partner. So chuck those moves out of the list of possible things to do.

2) spinning. If you find your partner is a bit unsteady when spinning then it would be perverse and cruel to lead something that requires lots of spins to make it work. Chuck those moves off the list of possible things to do.

3) Positional accuracy. Lead your partner in one direction (like your left hand side) and she autopilots into your right hand side. She is not going to go where you lead her, she is going where she expects to go. Don't bother fight ing this one. Lead here where you want her to go, see where she actaully does go, then try and make something out of that. After a few trys, give up and only lead stuff that she will conform to her expectations. There is no point it developing into an unpleasant battle of wills. Being unsteady in spins can also mean that when you spin your partner you cannot gaurantee that she will end up where you left her, so the entry into whatever you were planning next may not be smooth or even possible. That will chop a lot of possible things off your list.

4) Space. If the space is not there than you cannot lead travelling moves without hitting other dancers. So don't lead them. If your partners movements at not controlled and tidy there is a serious risk that some thing that you could lead may hit other dancers so you have to limit what you lead to things that don't allow your partner to develop their wild side.

5) Tempo. If the pace is fast then there isn't time to get a complicated move off the ground with someone that you are not sure of. As the pace goes up then the complexity of the move needs to come down. If it doeesn't then then something somewhere will go wrong, the move will fall apart and you partner will feel like they have just been flung out of a spin drier. If it means that much to you to do this fantastic, complicated move at speed then you have to practice it slowly and get all the rough edges smoothed off first.

6) The hoppity skippity. For some reason your partner inserts triple steps at random into her movement. So you have no idea which foot she may have weight on at any particular time. So you cannnot lead a move like a manhatton where you rely on stepping forward on your left as she steps back on her right. In reality you are not leading at all. You have not lead a triple step so you don't have the faintest idea why your partner is doing them. Chuck out any move that may involve a ballroom hold because at some point you will tread on her feet or have to manhandle her to force her to step on the foot that you require.

7) Charge!!! No matter what you do your partner finishes one move and charges at your right hand side. You try leading nothing but that doesn't stop her. You try gently pressing her hand down to ground both her feet to get her to stop but that doesn't work. You can chuck out moves used to hit breaks or hesitations.

Having my own fixed partner means that I know what her skill sets is and she knows mine. So the range of things that we can do together is wider than the things that we can do with people that do not yet have all of those skills.

Having a fixed partner allows both of you time to work together and tell each other what you expect of each other. Followers learn from leaders and leaders learn from followers. Having a really complicated move to work through merely forces you both to start communicating with each other in order to make this joint enterprise of dancing together work. Each of you learns the skills to make the other persons role easier or indeed, possible.

Dancing with one partner can mean that you just develop bad habits that only the other person can cope with. So what you may be best off doing is communicating with other dancers and learning from them, and them from you, but not limiting yourself to just one person.

Some time ago a group of dancing freinds used to hire a local hall on a Sunday evening once a month. We would play new tracks that we had heard to the other people so we all gotr a wide expereince of music. We would also introduce new moves or techniques to each other that we had learnt elsewhere. To do this also meant that we had to fully practice and understand what we were doing before we showed the rest of the group. Since the hall was ours the timetable was also ours. If someone had a problem the rest of the group could help iron it out.

Dancers comminicating and learning together is the key, be it in a fixed partnership, a group of like minded dancers, or picking the brains of your teachers or other dancers. The great thing is that the resources are all around you.

Gordon J Pownall
9th-October-2006, 03:52 PM
Ceroc teaching is all about the moves, which are male-led; so classes are always taught from a male point of view.

OK, to be fair, most partner dances are taught like that - but most other dances will talk about what the follower should do.

The problem with the demo being only a demo (and not a teacher) is that ladies have to infer how to put style into their moves. Even the female Ceroc teachers don't talk much about women's styling - most of their style points are still directed to the man.


Some ladies in salsa could do with a bit less styling, and a bit more rhythm / following. Don't get me started on salsa bloody shines, it's not pretty. :rolleyes:

In fairness, Ceroc does teach moves and with the time limits, has little left over for style per se however I must add that (IMHO) there are Ceroc teachers who teach some points that can improve technique as opposed to just spouting out moves week after week.

In response to teaching - most teachers (certainly I) teach to the couple, not the man. There is an emphasis on (usually) the man leading and therefore most instructions will be directed towards the leader however I teach always to the couple ensuring that both have an understanding of thier own role and that of each other....maybe I'm a rarity...???:confused:

TheTramp
9th-October-2006, 03:55 PM
maybe I'm a rarity...???:confused:

There's no disagreement from me there!! :flower:

Trouble
9th-October-2006, 04:03 PM
In response to teaching - most teachers (certainly I) teach to the couple, not the man. There is an emphasis on (usually) the man leading and therefore most instructions will be directed towards the leader however I teach always to the couple ensuring that both have an understanding of thier own role and that of each other....maybe I'm a rarity...???:confused:

you are a rarity.. ceroc teachers i have been too and i have not done that many so dont take it as fact........talk to the man/leader.. unless a woman is teaching it in which case they sometimes give a few extra tips on how to make a move look better.

i hate to keep comparing but Salsa normally has a man teaching the man moves and a woman will interveen inbetween the moves and show the woman what styling is needed and how best to work that move.....i have not seen this done in Salsa apart from Camba.

why is this or does it happen wider afield and just not here in essex. !!!

David Bailey
9th-October-2006, 04:10 PM
In fairness, Ceroc does teach moves and with the time limits, has little left over for style per se however I must add that (IMHO) there are Ceroc teachers who teach some points that can improve technique as opposed to just spouting out moves week after week.
I agree - the Ceroc model doesn't allow time to teach style. If you have to teach 4 moves in 30-40 minutes, then another 4 moves in another 30-40 minutes, that gives little or no spare time to do anything else.

But when you're teaching in the round (eg. as most other dance forms), the demo gets more opportunity to actually speak. The Ceroc Microphone-and-Stage model of teaching means that the demo can't contribute verbally.

Trouble
9th-October-2006, 04:16 PM
thats a shame as im sure many women could benefit from that little bit of detail.

NZ Monkey
9th-October-2006, 04:17 PM
In response to teaching - most teachers (certainly I) teach to the couple, not the man. There is an emphasis on (usually) the man leading and therefore most instructions will be directed towards the leader however I teach always to the couple ensuring that both have an understanding of thier own role and that of each other....maybe I'm a rarity...??? In my old classes back in Auckland there was a definite pattern in teaching the moves.

1) The move is demonstrated
2) It’s talked through by the teachers, still demonstrating
3) It’s walked through with the class following the instructions (from the leads perspective).
4) Repeat step 3 if necessary
5) Walk through once again (from the followers perspective)
6) Repeat step 5 if necessary
7) Run through several times to a count
8) Run through with music, either with the rest of the routine or only a few moves depending on the teachers preference and time constraints etc…

Both the followers and the leaders got to see the move from their perspectives, but the leads get their instruction earlier because they have to actually lead the move and know exactly whats happening, and that takes more practice. Usually it's the ''demo'' teaching the follower role as well unless there is a clear difference in ability of the teachers.

And us guys need to be told everything more than twice to make it stick anyway. Not to mention our genetic disposition to having two left feet. :whistle:

David Bailey
9th-October-2006, 04:38 PM
In my old classes back in Auckland there was a definite pattern in teaching the moves.

...
5) Walk through once again (from the followers perspective)
6) Repeat step 5 if necessary
...

Both the followers and the leaders got to see the move from their perspectives, but the leads get their instruction earlier because they have to actually lead the move and know exactly whats happening, and that takes more practice. Usually it's the ''demo'' teaching the follower role as well unless there is a clear difference in ability of the teachers.

Interesting - I don't think I've ever seen steps 5-6 at a weekly Ceroc UK class.

Martin
9th-October-2006, 05:18 PM
Sydney Ceroc Australia perspective...

A)Show the first move (twice on a different angle each time if necessary)
B)Talk the class through the move briefly (twice). No footwork - emphasise weight distribution. lead and tension.
C)Teach guy's footwork (Twice if necessary).
D)Teach girl's footwork (Twice if necessary).
E)Walk through the move giving instructions eg step back on 1, step together on 2 etc.
F) Dance through by counting eg 1, 2, and 3, and 4.
G) Count through and dance with music.
H)Add any style tips for the move.


NB: Get music on as soon as possible

Lou
9th-October-2006, 05:21 PM
Interesting - I don't think I've ever seen steps 5-6 at a weekly Ceroc UK class.

It happens during a typical Bristolian LeRoc class too. We have 2 teachers, even during beginners classes.

There's pros & cons to it. You do get the style points and the ladies learn footwork & technique :whistle: , however you also do have the disadvantage that ladies tend to step through the moves without waiting to be led.

NZ Monkey
9th-October-2006, 05:24 PM
however you also do have the disadvantage that ladies tend to step through the moves without waiting to be led.Because they'd never do that anyway....:whistle:

ALexyMiss
9th-October-2006, 06:52 PM
So, obviously you need a fixed partner in order to compete. I went to Ceroc Champs last year but could only particpate in the Lucky Dip! Any suggestions on how to go about finding a fixed partner to compete with?

TheTramp
9th-October-2006, 07:51 PM
So, obviously you need a fixed partner in order to compete. I went to Ceroc Champs last year but could only particpate in the Lucky Dip! Any suggestions on how to go about finding a fixed partner to compete with?

Find someone you like dancing with. Ask them.

If there's no-one you like dancing with at the venue you normally go to, go to a different venue.

Advertise yourself on somewhere like here. Details about yourself, what you like to dance to, what your aims are, how much effort you want to put into it etc. would probably be good.