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David Bailey
6th-October-2006, 03:25 PM
Given the discussion about Ozzie jumping-around-like-a-dervish style, with emphasis on athleticism and so on ( :na: - I'm just jealous ), it reminded me that the age scene in Oz is (I believe) generally younger than the UK - 20-30 not 30-40, say? I'm not sure why this is - presumably a different marketing strategy.

However, given that, and given the comments in the "Making ceroc cool? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9272)" thread, it appears that Ceroc UK don't really explicitly target the younger generation (18-30, say).

But are they missing a trick? Is there a potentially lucrative market, given sufficient marketing, in that age range?

Consider:

Younger people are used to spending more on an average night out than old tightwads like me,
They're more happy with paying for extra for merchandising and branding
They've seen various partner dance shows on primetime TV over the past couple of years
But they're not attracted to the standard "school-hall" model of Ceroc classes.


So, is there be a market for a kind of "Club Ceroc"?

Blueshoes
6th-October-2006, 03:47 PM
However, given that, and given the comments in the "Making ceroc cool? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9272)" thread, it appears that Ceroc UK don't really explicitly target the younger generation (18-30, say).



I was thinking of starting a similar thread, asking why there are so few young dancers. Personally I love watching the younger dancers (no comments here please) as they have an energy and style much different to old gits like me and DavidJames.:grin:

I hadn't thought along the lines of having seperate clubs for them but now it's been raised I think it's a really good idea - they can socialise with people of their own age and the class could be geared to the younger element. And if they want to broaden their horizons they can move on to regular nights.

A definite thumbs up from me!:)

Tessalicious
6th-October-2006, 03:49 PM
However, given that, and given the comments in the "Making ceroc cool? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9272)" thread, it appears that Ceroc UK don't really explicitly target the younger generation (18-30, say).Funny, I've heard so many criticisms that Ceroc is doing too much of just that - people are outraged at the preference for younger teachers and demonstrators, proclaiming that these people are much younger than most of the people doing their classe and that Ceroc should just target the people who are interested, not try to become younger.
Younger people are used to spending more on an average night out than old tightwads like meWe are?
(Most of my younger friends can't afford to do Ceroc more than once a week or a fortnight unless they taxi.)
They're more happy with paying for extra for merchandising and brandingWe are?

They've seen various partner dance shows on primetime TV over the past couple of yearsSure, but most would rather watch X-Factor.
But they're not attracted to the standard "school-hall" model of Ceroc classes.Interesting one, the only thing I don't prefer about the 'school-hall' type venues is that the drinks don't come out of a cold pipe.
So, is there be a market for a kind of "Club Ceroc"?Dunno, but is thar be from Somerset?

David Bailey
6th-October-2006, 04:09 PM
Funny, I've heard so many criticisms that Ceroc is doing too much of just that - people are outraged at the preference for younger teachers and demonstrators, proclaiming that these people are much younger than most of the people doing their classe and that Ceroc should just target the people who are interested, not try to become younger.
I don't think there is such a preference, at least not now.

And looking at the ceroc.com website, I can't see anything about age ranges, and the profiles (which I assume are selected to represent "who does ceroc") seem to be of all ages.

As for "young people being more willing to spend more money"

We are?
Yes, of course, that's why so much marketing is aimed at that particular demographic.

Ironic, really, as youngsters have less income than us oldies in general - but I guess more of it is disposable.


(Most of my younger friends can't afford to do Ceroc more than once a week or a fortnight unless they taxi.)
Extrapolating from "people I know" to "an entire age range" is probably not the most scientific analysis technique... :whistle:


Sure, but most would rather watch X-Factor.
What matters is, more of them are watching SCD / SDF than were watching it 5 years ago - so there's more exposure, there's more publicity, and there's more "cool factor".

Which conceivably could be exploited, to reach a demographic that (in general) has not been commonly-represented in Ceroc nights, but which offers some lucrative potential opportunities.

MartinHarper
6th-October-2006, 04:12 PM
Ironic, really, as youngsters have less income than us oldies in general - but I guess more of it is disposable.

No mortgage, no pension, no kids. In general.

Twirly
6th-October-2006, 04:15 PM
Didn’t you see my comments on the Clapham venues which are falling apart at the seams – both in “clubs”? I suspect that the reason that Ceroc uses them is that they are cheap because of their descript condition. To get anywhere halfway decent and club-like is going to cost a lot more money. £15 for a standard Ceroc class night anyone? Maybe more since dances don’t tend to be boozers so you don’t have the income there?

TheTramp
6th-October-2006, 04:19 PM
We have 3 nights in nightclubs (Jumping Jaks) in Scotland - Aberdeen (2) and Glasgow.

Of the 2 nights, I've been to, both seem to attract a younger crowd. Neither venue is falling apart at the seams (though, the decor isn't to my taste!). And it's the standard charge for Ceroc to get in....

Oh, and both are doing very well in terms of numbers.

Blueshoes
6th-October-2006, 04:19 PM
Funny, I've heard so many criticisms that Ceroc is doing too much of just that - people are outraged at the preference for younger teachers and demonstrators, proclaiming that these people are much younger than most of the people doing their classes and that Ceroc should just target the people who are interested, not try to become younger.

The question DavidJames is posing as I understand it is whether Ceroc should target specific evenings at younger people and leave the old fuddies (over thirties) to get on with their own evenings.

You would have a much better idea of this than myself Tess, would you prefer to go to venues with a target 18 -30 age range?

David Bailey
6th-October-2006, 04:24 PM
To get anywhere halfway decent and club-like is going to cost a lot more money. £15 for a standard Ceroc class night anyone? Maybe more since dances don’t tend to be boozers so you don’t have the income there?
Ah, but hence my "high disposable income" comments - if you explicitly target a "club-going" crowd, you'll be marketing to people who are used to paying more for a night out, so you can charge more for a night than a standard Ceroc £7 fee.

Also, you can probably charge more for drinks - £2 for a bottle of water, perhaps, which price would be met by complete wrath in a "normal" Ceroc atmosphere.

So yes, clubs might be more expensive (depends on the night though), but if you can charge more, then you've got a viable model.


The question DavidJames is posing as I understand it is whether Ceroc should target specific evenings at younger people and leave the old fuddies (over thirties) to get on with their own evenings.
Basically, yes. A "Ceroc Junior" if you will (boy, how patronising does that sound :) )

Twirly
6th-October-2006, 04:27 PM
We have 3 nights in nightclubs (Jumping Jaks) in Scotland - Aberdeen (2) and Glasgow.

Of the 2 nights, I've been to, both seem to attract a younger crowd. Neither venue is falling apart at the seams (though, the decor isn't to my taste!). And it's the standard charge for Ceroc to get in....

Oh, and both are doing very well in terms of numbers.

Well maybe it is possible – but my impression of clubs in London (since I don’t frequent them these days) is that they tend to be expensive. Particularly in central London, which here is where you’d probably have to place them to do what DJ is suggesting, though I might be wrong.

When I commented to someone at Clapham (a taxi dancer I think it was), they pointed out the correlation between bad conditions (the overflowing air conditioners that provide impromptu showers and bits of ceiling covering coming down – the place is littered with “take care” signs!) and cheap rent.

Twirly
6th-October-2006, 04:35 PM
Why does this have to be to the under 30’s? If we are talking about a better quality venue, I wouldn’t mind that, say for a Saturday night out, freestyle type thingy.

Am still not sure it would work for a standard Ceroc class night. You need to go at least twice a week really, and lots of people go a lot more than that. If it was £12, plus say 2 bottles of your water at £2, that’s £16 per night and £32 a week if you want to get to be any good. Plus probably some alcohol before, during or after, so +£40 per week.

Tessalicious
6th-October-2006, 04:35 PM
The question DavidJames is posing as I understand it is whether Ceroc should target specific evenings at younger people and leave the old fuddies (over thirties) to get on with their own evenings.

You would have a much better idea of this than myself Tess, would you prefer to go to venues with a target 18 -30 age range?Ick, what a horrible idea. I know one venue that was getting pretty close to that at one point, and that is when I stopped enjoying it (not naming any names, sorry). Part of the fun of Ceroc for me is the variety of people.

Mind you, I'm not exactly a typical 21 year old, so maybe I'm not the best one to ask.


And I'm not going anywhere where my donkey is too old to get in!

Dazzler
6th-October-2006, 04:46 PM
In Inverness we have a great range of people of all ages although we are definately lacking young guys...i am the youngest guy by a good few years but we have a few female dancers in thier early 20s, last night we went to a bar after the class, this bar is reasonably new and trendy but has a good dance floor (which is normally not used) and also a very accomodating DJ :grin: we danced there for a couple of hours and seemed to have a crowd of youngsters around us watching then tryin to recreate what we were doing!...i fully intend to take flyers next time!....the point i am getting at is that the venue does not have to be in a club to get attention of younger people but getting out there and busking in bars and clubs is :wink: if they are seeing it then ask 'where did you learn to do that?' you can simply say or give them a leaflet.....does anyone else think that this could be the way forward for recruiting a younger crowd?

David Bailey
6th-October-2006, 04:55 PM
Why does this have to be to the under 30’s? If we are talking about a better quality venue, I wouldn’t mind that, say for a Saturday night out, freestyle type thingy.
Because over-30's, generally, don't spend as much on nights out. We want value for money, we have other stuff to spend our cash on, and so on.

Again, extrapolating from "what I like" to "what everyone my age likes" is poor marketing technique.

To quote Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics) (as always):

Demographic profiling is essentially an exercise in making generalizations about groups of people. As with all such generalizations many individuals within these groups will not conform to the profile - demographic information is aggregate and probabilistic information about groups, not about specific individuals.
Or, in other words :na: :)


Am still not sure it would work for a standard Ceroc class night. You need to go at least twice a week really, and lots of people go a lot more than that. If it was £12, plus say 2 bottles of your water at £2, that’s £16 per night and £32 a week if you want to get to be any good. Plus probably some alcohol before, during or after, so +£40 per week.
Yep - and some young urban professionals would not blanch at all at that figure.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think this is as big a market as the current Ceroc UK market, and I am not a marketing research professional. But it's possible.

And the obvious extra bonus for Ceroc UK of this would be that it could "hook" people at an earlier stage, therefore getting them addicted younger and spending more money on Ceroc throughout their lifetimes.

Twirly
6th-October-2006, 05:20 PM
So why don't you post a poll for those under 30 on the forum? :devil:

I still suspect that there would be a market for somewhat classier nights out for those in the older demographic though. Those without kids particularly. What makes you think that there isn't?

David Bailey
6th-October-2006, 09:00 PM
So why don't you post a poll for those under 30 on the forum? :devil:
Because:
Polls are the :devil:'s work
It'd be non-representative; Tessalicious is sadly atypical



I still suspect that there would be a market for somewhat classier nights out for those in the older demographic though. Those without kids particularly. What makes you think that there isn't?
Because the only argument you've made is that "It's something I'd like to do", and that's not exactly a sound base for a detailed market research.

And I'm not sure there is such a market - look at the low take-up for Swish, Ceroc's plain attempt at the classy end of the market.

Whereas it's an established fact that the younger demographic spends proportionately more dosh on leisure - why else do you think everyone's chasing after their money in this area? Look at any relevant ad, see the age range it's targetted at.

Gus
6th-October-2006, 10:12 PM
And the obvious extra bonus for Ceroc UK of this would be that it could "hook" people at an earlier stage, therefore getting them addicted younger and spending more money on Ceroc throughout their lifetimes.Hmmm, my impression of the 18 to 30 year olds I see out on a Fri/Sat night is that they are mostly into wearing cool gear, getting intoxicated and getting laid. I'm not sure how a MJ night would satisfy/replace those criteria (though the post-break up attendees at some MJ clubs do seem to also persue the "getting laid" criteria :blush: ).

Gadget
6th-October-2006, 11:26 PM
We have 3 nights in nightclubs (Jumping Jaks) in Scotland - Aberdeen (2) and Glasgow.

Of the 2 nights, I've been to, both seem to attract a younger crowd. Neither venue is falling apart at the seams (though, the decor isn't to my taste!). And it's the standard charge for Ceroc to get in....

Oh, and both are doing very well in terms of numbers.
I think that's probaly more due to location rather than venue, although the fact it's a club will have a little influence.

MartinHarper
7th-October-2006, 01:18 AM
Hmmm, my impression of the 18 to 30 year olds I see out on a Fri/Sat night is that they are mostly into wearing cool gear, getting intoxicated and getting laid.

That's because you're old, Gus. If you were young you'd realise we have different priorities to that.

I mean, getting laid is way more important than wearing cool gear.

Gus
7th-October-2006, 12:22 PM
That's because you're old, Gus. If you were young you'd realise we have different priorities to that.

I mean, getting laid is way more important than wearing cool gear.Ahem, the first two criteria are pre-requisites to achieving the third criteria. :cool:

David Bailey
7th-October-2006, 03:02 PM
Hmmm, my impression of the 18 to 30 year olds I see out on a Fri/Sat night is that they are mostly into wearing cool gear, getting intoxicated and getting laid.
What, dancing doesn't get you laid? Hell. I wish someone had told me that 10 years ago :(

It's true that the "Can MJ ever be marketed at a younger crowd?" is the key question. Personally, I think there'd have to be some serious rebranding done - but if you could pull it off, it could be a money-spinner.

David Bailey
22nd-October-2006, 12:29 PM
OK, now that someone has launched MJ for the club market, maybe we can discuss this further:

From Lory's review of "Jive Nation" (!) at the Hippodrome:

The music - for ME, it was just toooooo clubby and LOUD! :blush: Don't get me wrong, I love the odd club track and I can get funky with the best of them:wink: but this was relentless. :rolleyes: And, if you couldn't dance (cos its too crowded) it would've be nice to be able to chat instead, which was also nearly impossible. All my favourite dancers were there but I didn't feel inclined to ask any of them, because the music didn't inspire me, plus, I know I'd have been dissapointed in my performance, due to the floor!

Now saying that, I CAN see the business logic to this - I definitely think this new night, might bridge the gap between the 'Club Scene' and the usual MJ format/venue. I think my daughter and her mates would love it and if it got them hooked, they might then graduate to accepting partner dancing as being really cool. Which can only be a good thing!:yeah:

I wish Simon every success but I can't realistically see people who're passionate about dancing, making it a regular night on their calendar.:confused:
What do other people think? Is it likely to succeed? Who'll be interested? What effect might this have on the "regular" MJ scene?

Comments?

Juju
22nd-October-2006, 01:43 PM
I think, rather than 'bridging the gap', it might 'fall between two stools'. It sounds like the night wasn't really to Lory's taste - her description certainly made me relieved not to have been invited (there are advantages to being a nonentity) as it sounds as though I'd have been hugely disappointed.

I don't see why the younger set would find a dodgy floor and having no room to dance any less aggravating than anyone else would, which would probably result in die-hard clubbers returning to 'normal' club nights and non partner dancing.

David Bailey
22nd-October-2006, 02:04 PM
I think, rather than 'bridging the gap', it might 'fall between two stools'. It sounds like the night wasn't really to Lory's taste - her description certainly made me relieved not to have been invited (there are advantages to being a nonentity) as it sounds as though I'd have been hugely disappointed.
Yes, it was very interesting to read the range of responses.

I think it's fair to say that the more experienced dancers are looking for something which is the almost exact opposite of a standard "club" night. Loud noise, crowded floors and modern dance music being part of the staple of the club experience - but things which experienced / picky MJ-ers hate.


I don't see why the younger set would find a dodgy floor and having no room to dance any less aggravating than anyone else would, which would probably result in die-hard clubbers returning to 'normal' club nights and non partner dancing.
Yeah, I'm also a bit skeptical. But then again, that's my default state of existence anyway...

It's fairly clear that a "Club Jive" would have to attract a totally new market segment. The trouble is, I suspect that the turnover rate is likely to be sky-high, and that as soon as they do get some experience, they'll try somewhere else.

Minnie M
22nd-October-2006, 02:36 PM
I must be the only person on this forum who was jiving (not Rock 'n' Roll) the first time round in the mid 50's.

We danced in dance halls, and church halls similar to today and the ambience was again very similar to todays dances. The music played is still played in some MJ dances (even though some tracks are 'copies') - but .......... in the late 50's disco came in and the loud music and bright flashing lights brought the 'drinking etc :whistle: ' crowds in, also the halls (and dance floors) got smaller, so it was far too crowed to jive especially with people spilling drinks etc., handbag dancing became much more fun.

In other words - disco killed the jive ............. :tears:

Feelingpink
22nd-October-2006, 03:28 PM
...

It's fairly clear that a "Club Jive" would have to attract a totally new market segment. The trouble is, I suspect that the turnover rate is likely to be sky-high, and that as soon as they do get some experience, they'll try somewhere else.Why does there have to be a high turnover? There are a ton of 'move monsters' lurking out there in MJ-land - and I suspect that the clubby end of MJ music would suit them down to the ground. Just a regular beat with no musicality required. Why on earth would they want to move on when they become 'more experienced'? There probably will be a small percentage who leave/move to another venue because they want something 'beyond' clubby music, but don't expect this would threaten the existence of a Club Jive.

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-October-2006, 03:41 PM
I think the venue, music and style of teaching selects the kind of customer who stays. A really clubby atmosphere might not have got some of us interested in dancing, but others instead maybe. I think there's a bit of the anthropic principle at work amongst those who say this could never work.

David Bailey
22nd-October-2006, 04:22 PM
Why does there have to be a high turnover? There are a ton of 'move monsters' lurking out there in MJ-land - and I suspect that the clubby end of MJ music would suit them down to the ground. Just a regular beat with no musicality required.
Because central London places tend to cater for that kind of market - "drop in" learners - who are less likely to return. For example, tourists.


Why on earth would they want to move on when they become 'more experienced'?
Because, from what I read, the atmosphere won't be suitable for more experienced / picky dancers (floor, loud music, etc.)


There probably will be a small percentage who leave/move to another venue because they want something 'beyond' clubby music, but don't expect this would threaten the existence of a Club Jive.
Don't get me wrong - I don't think it's an insurmountable obstacle. It just means that you'd need to adjust the business plan based on the likely turnover rate, which will probably be higher than Ceroc. It's more likely to be at the level of the salsa clubs in Central London, in my opinion.

It'd be interesting to see if the Hippodrome venue takes off. But even if it doesn't, that's not necessarily the kiss of death to the concept - it may be just that the business plan went wrong.

I think the concept is plausible.

Lynn
22nd-October-2006, 04:28 PM
It's more likely to be at the level of the salsa clubs in Central London, in my opinion. Quite possible. Which could mean its competing directly with salsa clubs and regular clubs in the same area?

If people want a regular club night, they'll go to a club. So its not going to be there for 'clubbers' but 'clubbers who want to learn to partner dance but for some reason wouldn't want to go to a regular Ceroc class night' perhaps?

Tessalicious
22nd-October-2006, 05:09 PM
Too many people of clubbing age (or attitude) are under the impression that Ceroc is for old people (dumping it in the same mental class as ballroom, swing and rock and roll), and would not be able to enjoy it if they found that to be the case, but don't mind the idea of partner dancing. Those people, particularly the ones that don't like latin music, *might* flock to Jive Nation in their hundreds - or they might not, just because London's a big place with a lot of different things for that kind of person to do. But the Hippodrome's as good a place to start as you're likely to find - we'll just have to wait and see whether they can make a success of it.

David Bailey
22nd-October-2006, 05:54 PM
Quite possible. Which could mean its competing directly with salsa clubs and regular clubs in the same area?
Well, yeah - for example, "Salsa!" just up Charing Cross road has a good salsa night going on Mondays.

But there's no such thing as no competition, and I don't believe there are any Central London Jive events on Mondays, so it's better than nothing.


If people want a regular club night, they'll go to a club. So its not going to be there for 'clubbers' but 'clubbers who want to learn to partner dance but for some reason wouldn't want to go to a regular Ceroc class night' perhaps?
That sounds about right. I think :confused:

Lory
22nd-October-2006, 06:16 PM
Too many people of clubbing age (or attitude) are under the impression that Ceroc is for old people

:yeah: But in a way it is! Its for everyone, old and young! :clap:

The point that I was trying to make in my review was, there are lots of 18-25year olds, who might have every potential to be a fantastic partner dancer and end up really loving it but they just don't get exposed to the possibility.:(


They want to go where 'other' 18-25year olds hang out. Going to a church or Town hall, where the lights are bright and lots of people who resemble their parents or worse, their grandparents, just doesn't appeal to them. :rolleyes:

Believe me I know, I have a 19year old daughter, some of you know her, she's a fab dancer and we've had this discussion many times.:devil:

She says things like, don't worry Mum, MJ will still be there for me, when I'm too old to go clubbing.:wink:
She says, her mates would think she was sad, if she went for a night out, to a town hall that finished at 11-30! They don't even go out before then!

Between the ages of 13 to 20, kids are far more influenced by the opinions of their peers, than good sense! ;) :D

As for Monday as a night out.... in Watford, its actually a very popular student night for clubbing but maybe that's just because it's cheap :confused:

David Bailey
22nd-October-2006, 06:30 PM
Believe me I know, I have a 19year old daughter, some of you know her, she's a fab dancer and we've had this discussion many times.:devil:
Interesting; as a test, can you ask her if she's any more likely to go to JXXX NXXXXN than Ceroc? (You may have to show her the web site address :na: )

Gus
22nd-October-2006, 07:47 PM
I think the venue, music and style of teaching selects the kind of customer who stays. A really clubby atmosphere might not have got some of us interested in dancing, but others instead maybe. I think there's a bit of the anthropic principle at work amongst those who say this could never work.Curious about why there is the thought that it will appeal to the clubby scene. From the SB lessons I've seen, there were no moves that were 'club' style, he doesn't dance club style, doesn't dress club style and ... how can I say this delicately ... is he a little old for the club scene? :whistle:

bigdjiver
22nd-October-2006, 08:22 PM
I must be the only person on this forum who was jiving (not Rock 'n' Roll) the first time round in the mid 50's.Alas no ...:tears:



We danced in dance halls, and church halls similar to today and the ambience was again very similar to todays dances. The music played is still played in some MJ dances (even though some tracks are 'copies') - but .......... in the late 50's disco came in and the loud music and bright flashing lights brought the 'drinking etc :whistle: ' crowds in, also the halls (and dance floors) got smaller, so it was far too crowed to jive especially with people spilling drinks etc., handbag dancing became much more fun.

In other words - disco killed the jive ............. :tears:
I started jiving Saturday nights in a scout hut. I moved away, but I suspect Disco never got into there ....

Groovemeister
23rd-October-2006, 08:34 AM
The thing is what you don't realize is that most night clubs are doing what you guy's are saying about "Ceroc, MJ".
Obviously the age group of people going out to night clubs is younger than the average MJ dancer but there is still a big problem in that industry with anyone going to clubs.

For one the bars that are open until 2-3 in the morning are taking away there buisness.

Also as well as all the other reason's that are associated with younger people not wanting to partner dance i.e. not cool, to many old people etc. we have a cultural problem in our night clubs which has come from the age of people doing drugs and drinking to excess which do not really mix with dancing.

One thing to look at is the American club scene it is completely different from our's not oin the mainstream clubs but in the underground more exclusive clubs as places like paradise garage once were. They are built around people going out dancing. Infact one club in new york called "shelter" even at this time opens it's door's on a saturday at 10 pm and finshes on a sunday at 10 pm not so people can get drunk or drugged up but so they can dance. Most of the dancers that go there who are in there 20's also do some sort of couple dancing because they know thats where most of there dancing started in other words they know their heritage.

We don't have that.

I have spoke about this many times because of my frustration about how people dance in clubs now. We have lost the will to want to go out and dance well in clubs. For instance I normally go to Southport for a soul music weekend in november and loved going at one time bacause i would get to dance along side some of the best dancers in the UK in the club scene. Apart from those people that were doing it 10-15 years ago there isn't anyone else bacuse no one dances in that way anymore.

This is also why alot of clubbers like the whole rammed dance floor feeling it means they feel like part of the crowd even if they can't dance they can be part of the homoginous group almost sexual. Believe me you go to somewhere like fabric and you will see.

I for one would say for "Ceroc, MJ" to get a truely sustained younger crowed through it's door's our club,drug, drink and everyother influence would have to change dramatically and I don't think that's within the directors of ceroc's powers

David Bailey
23rd-October-2006, 09:14 AM
{ snip stuff which is very true }

I for one would say for "Ceroc, MJ" to get a truely sustained younger crowed through it's door's our club,drug, drink and everyother influence would have to change dramatically and I don't think that's within the directors of ceroc's powers
Well, I don't think "Jive Nation" is going to transform the club scene singlehandedly.

On the other hand, there are "partner dance" clubs, very successful ones, that have been in Central London for the past 15 years now. They're called salsa clubs - "Salsa!" in Leicester Square, "The Finca" in Kings Cross, "Bar Rumba" in Piccadilly Circus and "Bar Cuba" in Kensington have all been doing salsa full- or part-time, and they've been doing OK out of it

So clearly a "nightclub"-based business model for partner dancing can work - the question is not whether it's fundamentally impossible, but whether the "image" of an MJ-like dance can ever be made "cool".

Which is what I had in mind with the "Making Ceroc Cool (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9272)" thread...

Daisy Fox
23rd-October-2006, 09:33 AM
My friend works in nightclubs and recently opened a new club in bedford. At the opening night party, his bosses had asked me if I would bring my dancing partner and do some Ceroc. His thinking was, that he was advertising the club as a dance venue, so why not have all types of dance. My friend said he thought it was a bad idea, but his boss was adamant.
We danced to three tracks, and everyone gathered round and watched and cheered. Afterwards I had loads of young guys and girls enquiring about where they could learn this type of dancing. I don't know if any of them ventured into a class.
I think MJ can be cool - but it might have to branch out to attract a younger audience. :grin:

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-October-2006, 09:38 AM
Which is what I had in mind with the "Making Ceroc Cool (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9272)" thread...Do you think we could extend the forum disapprobation with blatant plugs for your own dance events to cover blatant plugs for your own threads too? :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-October-2006, 09:40 AM
I don't think anyone's mentioned that Ceroc requires much more room on the dance floor than the same quantity of people muggle-dancing. If anyone doubts that, Friday's experience is good enough evidence. Since clubs need to pack them in to raise the door money, there's no incentive whatsoever to halve the number of people that will fit on the floor.

Daisy Fox
23rd-October-2006, 09:47 AM
I don't think anyone's mentioned that Ceroc requires much more room on the dance floor than the same quantity of people muggle-dancing. If anyone doubts that, Friday's experience is good enough evidence. Since clubs need to pack them in to raise the door money, there's no incentive whatsoever to halve the number of people that will fit on the floor.

I think thats very true for a friday or saturday night. But most clubs really struggle with mid week business and would welcome third parties using their venues - the lower numbers on these nights shouldn't be a problem. The other problem that clubs would have is a low bar spend, I know in my local venue, the majority of people drive to the venue and therefore drink squash all night, then there would be parking !!!!!!!!!!!

Lory
23rd-October-2006, 09:55 AM
One thought that sprang to my mind on Friday was..if this was a normal club night, no one would be on the floor yet (at 8-30pm) in fact, no one would even be in there yet! I think the culture of going to clubs late, has grown because no one wants to be in an empty club with no atmosphere, so people start going later and later.

I don't know how many of you have ever been given a flyer with get in free before 9pm, or been given special VIP passes that offer you free drinks but are only valid before a certain time, well we know why, its to get people in, to create the atmosphere for when the 'paying public' turn up.

Now, heres my idea, how about a group of MJ'ers getting together and offering their services? (obviously they have to like club music) They have to get there before 8-30pm, they get free drinks, inc. water and hey presto, a full floor, entertainment for the paying public, ready made atmosphere and free advertising for MJ :clap:

David Bailey
23rd-October-2006, 10:01 AM
I don't think anyone's mentioned that Ceroc requires much more room on the dance floor than the same quantity of people muggle-dancing.
So does salsa.

Oh - have I mentioned that there are salsa clubs around? :rolleyes:

Can people please get off the "Night club partner dancing is impossible" theme? It's clearly not impossible.


Do you think we could extend the forum disapprobation with blatant plugs for your own dance events to cover blatant plugs for your own threads too? :whistle:
Ahh, you're just jealous 'coz I thought of these hip thread titles months ago. Hmmm, I wonder what salsa thread link I can post...

Groovemeister
23rd-October-2006, 10:10 AM
Well, I don't think "Jive Nation" is going to transform the club scene singlehandedly.

On the other hand, there are "partner dance" clubs, very successful ones, that have been in Central London for the past 15 years now. They're called salsa clubs - "Salsa!" in Leicester Square, "The Finca" in Kings Cross, "Bar Rumba" in Piccadilly Circus and "Bar Cuba" in Kensington have all been doing salsa full- or part-time, and they've been doing OK out of it

So clearly a "nightclub"-based business model for partner dancing can work - the question is not whether it's fundamentally impossible, but whether the "image" of an MJ-like dance can ever be made "cool".

Which is what I had in mind with the "Making Ceroc Cool (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9272)" thread...

You cannot really base what is going on in London against the rest of the country. The population level means that most things work. This has been prooven time and time again you take this type of scenario out to the suburbs and you would be struggling may be not straight away but you will eventually.

The problem is we all love dance and think why would anyone not want to do this. With everything thats going on in most peoples lives it is very difficult to get them off their settee's at night let alone learning something that is very foreign to them.

I won't go into obesity and all the thoughts that are associated with that.

How many people on here have put on there own nights in clubs. I have 5 times this year and believe me it is hard out there at the mo. Handing out flyers, texting, calling people, when your out lay for a club is £1000 upwards you have to work it. It's a big risk for some one to take if it goes wrong and I had it go wrong twice.

Groovemeister
23rd-October-2006, 10:14 AM
My friend works in nightclubs and recently opened a new club in bedford.

Where ?

Gav
23rd-October-2006, 10:23 AM
Now, heres my idea, how about a group of MJ'ers getting together and offering their services? (obviously they have to like club music) They have to get there before 8-30pm, they get free drinks, inc. water and hey presto, a full floor, entertainment for the paying public, ready made atmosphere and free advertising for MJ :clap:

What a great idea. I'd be up for it.



Can people please get off the "Night club partner dancing is impossible" theme? It's clearly not impossible.


Abso-bloody-lutely.:respect:

I've danced MJ in Nighclubs in Norwich and Marrakech, although both times I was there without an MJ crowd. Once I was lucky to bump into an MJ'er, the other time I was lucky to find a "natural" follower!

Groovemeister
23rd-October-2006, 10:38 AM
Just to add my thoughts from the title MJ for the club market?

Club market( in general)= how many people you can get drinking large amounts of alchole on a friday and saturday night playing recent pop music with very little imagination and most people stumbling about drunk on the pull. Maximum bucks for as little layout as possible.

Ceroc, MJ = People dancing to a varied amount of music not exactly the latest all the time so random people may not join in. Co-ordination required and getting hot and sweaty so not much drinking going on. Dancing and hopefully not on the pull. Same layout for less return as far as the clubs concerned.

Mid week taking Ceroc, MJ to a club = Better surroundings less of the school hall feel, more professional look. Maybe more familier surroundings for younger people. Club gets people in the door but they wouldn't be drinking might be a problem.

Daisy Fox
23rd-October-2006, 10:46 AM
Just to add my thoughts from the title MJ for the club market?

Mid week taking Ceroc, MJ to a club = Better surroundings less of the school hall feel, more professional look. Maybe more familier surroundings for younger people. Club gets people in the door but they wouldn't be drinking might be a problem.

As long as the club can cover staffing, cleaning costs and make a bit of profit mid week then they should be up for it. If the night attracts a younger crowd, then mosts club managers understand that this is great marketing for their venue anyway, its just the greedy clubs that don't really get this concept. Used to work as an events manager - sometimes its not about making a huge profit mid week - but more about opportunities to invite new people into the venue to create new business.
I agree with David James - it could work very well.

Gav
23rd-October-2006, 10:47 AM
Just to add my thoughts from the title MJ for the club market?

Club market( in general)= how many people you can get drinking large amounts of alchole on a friday and saturday night playing recent pop music with very little imagination and most people stumbling about drunk on the pull. Maximum bucks for as little layout as possible.

Ceroc, MJ = People dancing to a varied amount of music not exactly the latest all the time so random people may not join in. Co-ordination required and getting hot and sweaty so not much drinking going on. Dancing and hopefully not on the pull. Same layout for less return as far as the clubs concerned.

Mid week taking Ceroc, MJ to a club = Better surroundings less of the school hall feel, more professional look. Maybe more familier surroundings for younger people. Club gets people in the door but they wouldn't be drinking might be a problem.

Lots of variables to consider?

Personally, I love to dance to all kinds of music from blues to swing to electro-hard-house. I also like going clubbing, having a few drinks and getting swallowed up on over-crowded dance floors (hope I don't get seen as "stumbling about drunk on the pull"). So I would be well up for getting into a club early to dance and stay there for clubbing later. It might be a way of getting more people interested?

Can't see it working in a backwater like Norwich, but I'd make an occasional trip into the city for it.

They would have to get the dance floors a little less sticky though! :sick:

Lynn
23rd-October-2006, 12:36 PM
Going back to the salsa comparison - that DJ has mentioned several times. I think its a fairly good comparison.

One of the reasons why I personally prefer not to go to local salsa clubs is the fact that they are crowded (maybe 150 people and space that I would say is enough for about 20 couples to dance), sound volume is too high to chat much, floors can be dirty and sticky with spilled drinks, and a certain number of people there are a bit drunk and liable to crash into you on the dance floor. (Plus smoky). These are all factors which put me off (from even going to the free nights)

But - lots of other people go and have a great night out. Therefore many of the things that we - the generally more than averagely addicted dancers who hang out on here - want from a dance night - good floor, space to dance etc - aren't as vital for other people. So we can't really use those as an argument against club nights not working.

PretzelMeister
23rd-October-2006, 12:54 PM
~snip~ we danced there for a couple of hours and seemed to have a crowd of youngsters around us watching then tryin to recreate what we were doing!...i fully intend to take flyers next time!....the point i am getting at is that the venue does not have to be in a club to get attention of younger people but getting out there and busking in bars and clubs is :wink: if they are seeing it then ask 'where did you learn to do that?' you can simply say or give them a leaflet.....does anyone else think that this could be the way forward for recruiting a younger crowd?

I think it's definitely worth giving a shot Dazzler.....

...a few of us were out for a few drinks in Glasgow on Friday night. Inevitably (!) ended-up having a few dances in the bars we were in (this is NOT unusual) and various (typically young) people approached us asking where we learned to do it, when the classes were, how much it cost, etc....

If we had business-card size 'flyers' to pass out to folks, with the discouted entry for first night, times of classes, venues, no need to bring a partner, web site link etc. then I think we'd definitely get more people in the door.

PM

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-October-2006, 01:58 PM
I think it's definitely worth giving a shot Dazzler.....

...a few of us were out for a few drinks in Glasgow on Friday night. Inevitably (!) ended-up having a few dances in the bars we were in (this is NOT unusual) and various (typically young) people approached us asking where we learned to do it, when the classes were, how much it cost, etc....

If we had business-card size 'flyers' to pass out to folks, with the discouted entry for first night, times of classes, venues, no need to bring a partner, web site link etc. then I think we'd definitely get more people in the door.

PMThere's a crew at Ceroc Wimbledon who go "nightclub busking" - with flyers - after Ceroc, I think, and I'm sure someone told me they do it at some Scottish venues.

TheTramp
23rd-October-2006, 02:11 PM
I agree with David James - it could work very well.


There's a crew at Ceroc Wimbledon who go "nightclub busking" - with flyers - after Ceroc, I think, and I'm sure someone told me they do it at some Scottish venues.

It does already work very well Daisy. 2 of the busiest week-day class nights in Scotland are in Jumping Jaks in Glasgow on a Tuesday, and Jumping Jaks on Aberdeen on a Wednesday.

Well, since we're already in the nightclub, we don't really need to go out busking. I know that a lot of people who've turned up early, while we're still dancing, to the nightclubs have subsequently started doing MJ.

This weekend, due to only being able to get the venue until midnight for the party, we're planning on hitting a nightclub in Inverness to carry on dancing afterwards. I'm sure that Franck will have a leaflet or two in his pocket....

Daisy Fox
23rd-October-2006, 02:23 PM
It does already work very well Daisy. 2 of the busiest week-day class nights in Scotland are in Jumping Jaks in Glasgow on a Tuesday, and Jumping Jaks on Aberdeen on a Wednesday.

Well, since we're already in the nightclub, we don't really need to go out busking. I know that a lot of people who've turned up early, while we're still dancing, to the nightclubs have subsequently started doing MJ.

This weekend, due to only being able to get the venue until midnight for the party, we're planning on hitting a nightclub in Inverness to carry on dancing afterwards. I'm sure that Franck will have a leaflet or two in his pocket....

Sounds great! Wish I lived a bit closer :grin:

David Bailey
23rd-October-2006, 02:26 PM
One of the reasons why I personally prefer not to go to local salsa clubs is the fact that they are crowded (maybe 150 people and space that I would say is enough for about 20 couples to dance), sound volume is too high to chat much, floors can be dirty and sticky with spilled drinks, and a certain number of people there are a bit drunk and liable to crash into you on the dance floor. (Plus smoky). These are all factors which put me off (from even going to the free nights)

But - lots of other people go and have a great night out. Therefore many of the things that we - the generally more than averagely addicted dancers who hang out on here - want from a dance night - good floor, space to dance etc - aren't as vital for other people. So we can't really use those as an argument against club nights not working.
I think you need to redefine what a club atmosphere does and doesn't provide, and what a churhc/town hall does and doesn't provide, to make a valid comparison.

A club typically provides:

Atmosphere
Chemistry (ahem)
Good seating / viewing / socialising opportunities
Good sound system


A church/town hall typically provides:

More and better dance space
Better value for money
Car parking
Cheaper drinks


So it's pointless trying to complain that a nightclub has a small dance floor, or that there's nowhere to sit down in a Ceroc venue. Each type of venue should be judged on its merits.

bigdjiver
23rd-October-2006, 03:33 PM
It does already work very well Daisy. 2 of the busiest week-day class nights in Scotland are in Jumping Jaks in Glasgow on a Tuesday, and Jumping Jaks on Aberdeen on a Wednesday.

Well, since we're already in the nightclub, we don't really need to go out busking. I know that a lot of people who've turned up early, while we're still dancing, to the nightclubs have subsequently started doing MJ.
FWIW I posted the Nightclub venue idea before Jumping Jaks opened, but not long enough before for me not to believe that it was probably already planned. But even then it was nothing new. I had danced Ceroc at the Leopard Lounge in Fulham before that, and was amazed to see the nightclub owners close the place when Ceroc finished.

Phil tried a night in Jumping Jaks in Dunstable, and it was a nightmare, broken glass on the floor for one thing.

Groovemeister
23rd-October-2006, 05:22 PM
If people danced like this in the clubs in the UK then Ceroc, MJ might stand a chance http://www.cheersparis.com/archives/video/videodc/flvplayer.html

Lory
23rd-October-2006, 05:40 PM
http://www.cheersparis.com/archives/video/videodc/flvplayer.html

Off topic.. did anyone else notice the girl in the biege suit? I wonder if the sweat eventually reaches the bottom of the jacket? :rofl:

Lory
24th-October-2006, 05:07 PM
Interesting; as a test, can you ask her if she's any more likely to go to JXXX NXXXXN than Ceroc?

Interview with Holly, at your request DJ (Daniel, her b/f is just an added bonus :D )

Background = Holly, 19, trendy student on gap year, working in central London, solo danced various styles all her life, tried Ceroc in the past, with me

= Daniel, 22, trendy, city worker, no formal dance training, regular club go'er

What's your overall perception of partner dancing?

Holly = I really enjoy it but it's mainly for older people and definitely not something to be done on the weekend
Daniel = Strictly come dancing, pompous, Glitzy, old people, old fashioned ballrooms.... oh yeah, I suppose Salsa's not too bad < was an after though



Would you try it, if it was the music that you liked?

Holly = would definitely be more appealing
Daniel= ditto


Would you try it if you knew some of your mates were going?

Holly = Oh yes, it'd be great fun
Daniel = I'd go and have a look, if I had nothing else to do but i'd need a few drinks before i joined in



Would it appeal to you, if it were in a famous west end night club?

Holly = Yes, much much more than a church or town hall
Daniel = Yeah, that'd be quite cool


What would be the biggest persuading factor, to get you to go along

Holly = knowing lots of people my age were going to be there
Daniel = Free beer :rolleyes:

One major thing came to light, they both said it wouldn't work for their age group en mass, cos very few of them would be able to accept that, asking for a dance didn't mean you were being chatted up/chatting someone up :confused:

Jhutch
24th-October-2006, 05:15 PM
One major thing came to light, they both said it wouldn't work for their age group en mass, cos very few of them would be able to accept that, asking for a dance didn't mean you were being chatted up/chatting someone up :confused:

I think this may be because people are in 'normal' nightclub mindframe where, if you asked someone to dance, you probably would be doing that. I found it difficult at first to ask women who looked as if they were there with a partner to dance. All i could compare it to was a normal nightclub where asking someone's partner to dance is not normally the done thing unless you know them well:)

However, you do get used to it though. I also found that some of the more experienced women asking me to dance helped a lot

Jhutch
24th-October-2006, 05:53 PM
I have only recently started dancing and am relatively young so i thought i would give some input:) My friends main questions when i have revealed that i have started dancing are...

whether you have to dress up or not. People seemed surprised that i go dancing in the same gear that i would wear down the pub (trainers, jeans and t-shirt). They seemed to think that it would involve dressing up in ballroom type gear
whether you have to have a dance partner or not. This was a concern of mine when people had suggested going to salsa nights before. When i went to Ceroc i thought this too; i was going with a girl i knew so i thought i would be dancing with her all nightI think that they are asking these questions as these are what they see as the main drawbacks. I think that a few of my friends may genuinely give it a try

Stuart M
25th-October-2006, 09:49 AM
...a few of us were out for a few drinks in Glasgow on Friday night. Inevitably (!) ended-up having a few dances in the bars we were in (this is NOT unusual) and various (typically young) people approached us asking where we learned to do it, when the classes were, how much it cost, etc....

If we had business-card size 'flyers' to pass out to folks, with the discouted entry for first night, times of classes, venues, no need to bring a partner, web site link etc. then I think we'd definitely get more people in the door.

PM
Well, business cards or no, looks like your gang had some sort of effect Mr. P - apparently there were 20 first-timers at JJ's on Tuesday night! :eek:

And on my taxiing night off, too :whistle: ... na, I did offer to help but jammy and the new crew did an excellent job ( :respect: to Scott and Lynn).

Feelingpink
25th-October-2006, 10:00 AM
Well, business cards or no, looks like your gang had some sort of effect Mr. P - apparently there were 20 first-timers at JJ's on Tuesday night! :eek:

And on my taxiing night off, too :whistle: ... na, I did offer to help but jammy and the new crew did an excellent job ( :respect: to Scott and Lynn).How fab! :clap:

tiger
25th-October-2006, 04:38 PM
i dont think there is much dressing up required for mj or clubs nowadays apart from maybe upmarket clubs.

bigdjiver
31st-October-2006, 12:41 PM
My friend works in nightclubs and recently opened a new club in bedford. At the opening night party, his bosses had asked me if I would bring my dancing partner and do some Ceroc. His thinking was, that he was advertising the club as a dance venue, so why not have all types of dance. My friend said he thought it was a bad idea, but his boss was adamant.
We danced to three tracks, and everyone gathered round and watched and cheered. Afterwards I had loads of young guys and girls enquiring about where they could learn this type of dancing. I don't know if any of them ventured into a class.
I think MJ can be cool - but it might have to branch out to attract a younger audience. :grin:I had a dance with Daisy Fox last night at Bedford, and, apart from the "out of my league" feeling, enjoyed it very much. I also really enjoyed a few dances with her friend. Daisy was kind enought to invite other Cerocers along to the new nightclub "Chapel 29" in Mill St. afterwards. She and a party of her friends had made the journey south because Brendan Cole was to be there. Unfortunately for Chapel 29 Brendan did not appear to be much of a draw for the target "Student" customer, and I suspect that the nightclub image deterred the Brendan fancs. This gave us room to do some MJ. Disappointingly I only managed to get two dances though. I had been hoping to present an "MJ is cool" image to the local male population by showing even an old geezer like me can get to dance with two pretty young things at the same time, but could not get the cooperation. The music being too loud for me to hold a conversation did not help. Instead I had to to watch a young lady who had refused me because because she was not going to dance any more MJ at the club because "it made the other dancers look bad" shortly afterwards leading two other ladies in "double trouble". To me this was presenting the image " MJ is for girls", which was the opposite of my ambitions. I left with Brendan doing a bit of Nightclub dance with six very happy Cerocers.
A fun and education night, but ultimately dissapointing. I had got a promise from a superb championship winning dancer that she would come along, and I would have loved to see her strut her raunchy stuff with Brendan, but she did not turn up, and a couple of superb leads that I had lured in with the promise that she would be there left without dancing because she had not turned up.
The night reinforced my perception that MJ and the current clubs culture don't mix too well, but if we got across the idea that men can actually go onto a dancefloor sober to some of the male wall huggers there we might have done some good.

Groovemeister
31st-October-2006, 02:44 PM
I don't think it was that really bigd it was more wrong place wrong time.

Monday night at 10pm not good for getting people out at the best of times. Also that club has got a bad rep from when it used to be Mission.

I think they have got a lot of work to do to get the right sort of crowd in there anyway let alone try and develope a couple dance scene.

Genie
31st-October-2006, 02:52 PM
In Inverness we have a great range of people of all ages although we are definately lacking young guys...i am the youngest guy by a good few years but we have a few female dancers in thier early 20s, last night we went to a bar after the class, this bar is reasonably new and trendy but has a good dance floor (which is normally not used) and also a very accomodating DJ :grin: we danced there for a couple of hours and seemed to have a crowd of youngsters around us watching then tryin to recreate what we were doing!...i fully intend to take flyers next time!....the point i am getting at is that the venue does not have to be in a club to get attention of younger people but getting out there and busking in bars and clubs is :wink: if they are seeing it then ask 'where did you learn to do that?' you can simply say or give them a leaflet.....does anyone else think that this could be the way forward for recruiting a younger crowd?

On Wednesdays and Thursdays at Jumping Jacks in Aberdeen, a large group of Cerocers head downstairs after the class to Chicago. We take over the dance floor there and the DJs are usually accommodating :) We get a lot of people asking us where we learnt to dance. We also sometimes go clubbing and end up cerocing, we get a lot of interest from younger people there.

I don't know about the younger crowd to be honest. I'm in my early 20s, so are a lot of people who go to the Aberdeen J.Jacks venues. I think it really depends on how you market it and where.

And I cannot afford anything :( But I make it to Ceroc on pure o/d. Because I love it so much. Young people like me have no income, bills to pay (and some of us have rent to pay) and we have about £4,500 of pure student fees to pay off (or, if you are me, you have £9,000, because you're doing a postgrad). So no. Young people can't afford it really :tears:

I would be very much against having 'separate' venues for different age groups. It would ruin the whole Ceroc idea - that of meeting people of all ages. If your venue happens to have very few young people, then I suggest doing as Dazzler suggested above. Marketing in places where young people are. Get together what young people you have (or invite some from other places like here *grin* if you don't have enough) and dance for them at the places they hang out. Hand out fliers and look like you're having fun and they'll come along in groups to give it a go :)

It's worth a try. It works for us. Also, get your younger people to pass word around their friends. Target the University bulletin boards, and make sure you mention Student Discount (we love that).

Or, if your venue/class is struggling, it might be worth doing a referral system. Say, if you bring someone new along, you get in for half-price, or something like that. Watch them start recruiting like mad! :yum:

Jamie
31st-October-2006, 02:59 PM
A couple of weeks ago, a couple of my friends from a MJ venue went into Leeds and into a night club.. I must say it was incredibly fun trying to follow when flashing lights were blinding us!

We danced MJ all night cos I got bored doing big-fish, little-fish, cardboard-box.. lol, was my first night out in night clubs, late starter I suppose, I'm 20 but that's old for a first starter isn't it?

It was good, we went into different rooms, danced some RnB tracks, danced to some "house" music, danced to everything really.. had everyone coming up to us asking where we dance and if they could give it a try..

It was well fun, we're doing it again soon, if that's not a good way of marketing MJ to a young audience I don't know what is!?

bigdjiver
31st-October-2006, 03:37 PM
I don't think it was that really bigd it was more wrong place wrong time.

Monday night at 10pm not good for getting people out at the best of times. Also that club has got a bad rep from when it used to be Mission.

I think they have got a lot of work to do to get the right sort of crowd in there anyway let alone try and develope a couple dance scene.I am not in the set to know about the reputation of the previous club, and I believe you are right about them having a hard time attracting their target market on a Monday. I suspect that several of the people I hoped would come along got there early, saw "nothing happening" and went to a more established competitor instead. I will investigate.
The club is superbly furbished, and has the ambience of the sort of place that you could take your loved one for a dine and dance evening, if they were set up for dine and dance. There was a locked large bar area which looked like it could be far enough away from the music to hold a comfortable conversation.
A lot of the difficulty I had was my age. It would worry all sorts of people if I was to start asking 18 years old girls in bunny girl costumes to dance. There were some older ladies I would have taken the chance with, but they were lodged in corners in the VIP lounge, "Brendaning".