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View Full Version : What's the point of Beginner Moves?



Lou
5th-October-2006, 09:25 AM
Inspired by DavidJames' post here....


Re: shoulder-slide:

Well, I'm not sure it's a key beginner move, that's for sure. If there's only 16 beginner's moves, I'd rather not have 2 such similar moves - and to me, the manspin is better, because the man gets to do something with his spare arm.

So, I'd rather have each beginner move designed so that it teaches a key (and separate) concept - and I don't see how the shoulder-slide does that?

If we expand that even further, it seems to be that you've got 3 very similar moves in the Beginner's list. As you've pointed out, you've got the Manspin and the Shoulder Slide. In addition, I'd say you've also got the Step Across. All 3 of these moves start with a Left to Right hold, take the same amount of beats, and involve the couple changing places. The important variation is where the man places his hand as he steps in:


At waist level for the Manspin
At shoulder height for the Shoulder Slide
Above the head for the Step Across


If the point of Beginner moves is to introduce key concepts, then why have all 3?

However, if the point of Beginner moves is to get a complete dance novice able to dance as soon as possible, then these 3 are excellent in that respect. They're relatively easy to pick up. They introduce the concept of thinking ahead (as the Leader has to choose how to lead each one), and they enable Lead and Follow skills to be taught, as the leader has to lead his partner to change places. And, of course, a couple of them are handy in that you can us them to change the handhold.

These are Beginner moves, IMHO, not basic moves. If Modern Jive were a more structured dance form, with a more traditional teaching progression, then they could be the same thing. But if Ceroc™ continue to market themselves as providing a fun and flexible dance form that can be picked up by people who are new to dance... well, isn't the choice of Beginner moves perfect for that?

El Salsero Gringo
5th-October-2006, 10:38 AM
The important variation is where the man places his hand as he steps in:

At waist level for the Manspin
At shoulder height for the Shoulder Slide
Above the head for the Step Across
If the point of Beginner moves is to introduce key concepts, then why have all 3?A key concept that you didn't mention is that there are three basic heights for the leader's hand to go to - waist level, shoulder level, above the lady's head. If you teach the same basic footwork with three different hand positions you get the opportunity to learn that point.

bigdjiver
5th-October-2006, 11:00 AM
... well, isn't the choice of Beginner moves perfect for that?I think almost. Ceroc is teaching a social dance. Most of the beginner moves last only a few beats, apart from the slow comb. To me that is a tad too personal for many beginners, and is a move that is not in my normal freestyle kit-bag. I do not think that there are many partners that want to be looking at me close up, and my shirt buttons hold little fascination for all ofthe ladies that are much shorter than I.
I would have the basket walk around as a beginner move. It can be drawn out, is not too personal, and gives a good opportunity for social chat.

Lou
5th-October-2006, 11:25 AM
A key concept that you didn't mention is that there are three basic heights for the leader's hand to go to - waist level, shoulder level, above the lady's head. If you teach the same basic footwork with three different hand positions you get the opportunity to learn that point.
Good point, well made.


Most of the beginner moves last only a few beats, apart from the slow comb. To me that is a tad too personal for many beginners ...
Good point too. The switch from Comb to Slow Comb always puzzled me. Maybe it's to teach Beginners to wiggle?

TheTramp
5th-October-2006, 11:29 AM
Good point too. The switch from Comb to Slow Comb always puzzled me. Maybe it's to teach Beginners to wiggle?

There's nothing wrong in teaching the beginners to wiggle. Well, the female beginners anyhow.

There's never enough wiggling in Ceroc I say! :whistle:

Blueshoes
5th-October-2006, 01:13 PM
I know this is a Ceroc forum but.....

Many people go to venues run by different organisations as well as Ceroc, maybe they'll get hooked and go to one place on a Monday and a different one on a Thursday. My frustration here is that the different organisations teach the same moves differently (one example is the yo-yo which is taught with different rotation and different hand heights on the turn out), or teach the same move but call it something else. This must confuse the hell out of beginners.

Basically the organisations are trying to diversify from the middle ground, to "own their own moves" if you like. I have no problem with this in the long term as the individual can choose the variation they like, but for a newbe it makes things unnecessarily complicated.

Then there's the intermediate move variations - but that's for another thread.

ducasi
5th-October-2006, 01:16 PM
Good point too. The switch from Comb to Slow Comb always puzzled me. Maybe it's to teach Beginners to wiggle?
Aren't both the comb and the slow comb beginner's move? By including both beginners learn that they can play with timing.

El Salsero Gringo
5th-October-2006, 01:25 PM
I know this is a Ceroc forum but.....

Many people go to venues run by different organisations as well as Ceroc, maybe they'll get hooked and go to one place on a Monday and a different one on a Thursday. My frustration here is that the different organisations teach the same moves differently (one example is the yo-yo which is taught with different rotation and different hand heights on the turn out), or teach the same move but call it something else. This must confuse the hell out of beginners. Inevitable really. You've seen how everyone has their own ideas of how to 'improve' the beginner's moves on just here on the Forum. Now imagine everyone started to teach their own variations. I can tell you that the Salsa world is much worse though.

killingtime
5th-October-2006, 01:46 PM
At waist level for the Manspin
At shoulder height for the Shoulder Slide
Above the head for the Step Across


Well I suppose two of them are giving you an example of changing left to right hand. The last one doesn't. Even if we argue that the first two are really similar I'd say teach them both. If you have been coming a few weeks as a lead having two moves that lets you get to a right hand hold means that you feel you can hold a freestyle dance better (that you aren't just repeating the same moves over and over).

MartinHarper
5th-October-2006, 02:06 PM
Inevitable really. You've seen how everyone has their own ideas of how to 'improve' the beginner's moves on just here on the Forum. Now imagine everyone started to teach their own variations.

Indeed, and Ceroc Ent. has made its fair share of changes too. There's also the small matter of copyright law. Teach a similar enough collection of beginner move variations, with similar enough names, as another organisation, and you open yourself to "collection copyright" problems.
This would only apply if there are people who would use spurious legal issues to crush legitimate competition. Anyone know anyone like that?


This must confuse the hell out of beginners.

How many beginners do you know who take lessons with more than one organisation? Seems to me most folks have been dancing at least a few months before they start doing that.

Lou
5th-October-2006, 02:23 PM
Aren't both the comb and the slow comb beginner's move? By including both beginners learn that they can play with timing.
D'you know... it's odd, but I don't think they are. (Maybe you're too heavily influenced by Franck :wink: ). I don't think that the ordinary comb is still on the list. I've been to a few Ceroc™ beginners classes lately, and only seen the Slow Comb, and Debbie CerocWorcester only has the Slow Comb listed in her list of beginner moves here (http://www.cerockidderminster.co.uk/ceroc_beginners_moves.tpl).

However, in this case, I'm happy to stand corrected. :D


I know this is a Ceroc forum but.....

Many people go to venues run by different organisations as well as Ceroc... My frustration here is that the different organisations teach the same moves differently ...or teach the same move but call it something else. ...
...Basically the organisations are trying to diversify from the middle ground....
Well, in the case of the YoYo, it was Ceroc™ who (relatively) recently changed the move to include the bit where the man turns 180 degrees. I liked the Classic YoYo (which is, as you point out, still taught by other organisations). Remembering to do the right variation can be a bit tricky though, I agree. :D

I don't think anyone's trying to diversify. IIRC, Blitz's Basic is a First Move, and (West Country) LeRoc's Change Places is a Man Spin. This has been the case for years, and they have their names routed in history. But the names aren't too important in the grander scheme of things - I don't have to know what they're called to follow them... :wink:

Lou
5th-October-2006, 02:28 PM
How many beginners do you know who take lessons with more than one organisation? Seems to me most folks have been dancing at least a few months before they start doing that.

Depends on where you are, Martin. Down in Bristol you have a number of independent clubs teaching varieties of LeRoc that can vary from venue to venue. Add to that the Ceroc™ classes that have sprung up on the outskirts (along with the existing Ginger Jive classes), and you've definitely got that likelihood of overlap within a 20 mile radius. There's a number of LeRoc & Ceroc™ classes running closely in Glasgow (but I probably shouldn't mention that. :wink: ). We're not all in the rural wilds of Worcestershire, you know!

MartinHarper
5th-October-2006, 02:41 PM
Depends on where you are, Martin. Down in Bristol you have a number of independent clubs teaching varieties of LeRoc that can vary from venue to venue.

Sure, but do you find fresh beginners taking advantage of that right from the start? I assumed based on my experience with TRDC vs Ceroc that most beginners would stick to a single variety to start with. Perhaps different in Bristol area, with a more collaborative approach.

TiggsTours
5th-October-2006, 02:52 PM
A key concept that you didn't mention is that there are three basic heights for the leader's hand to go to - waist level, shoulder level, above the lady's head. If you teach the same basic footwork with three different hand positions you get the opportunity to learn that point.

:yeah:

Sometimes in an intermediate or advanced move you will need to lead the lady by bringing her hand to your waist, sometimes to your shoulder, and sometimes above her head (a fine art that can go drastically wrong!), if you haven't learnt how to do this in beginners, how can you possibly expect to progress?


There's nothing wrong in teaching the beginners to wiggle. Well, the female beginners anyhow.

There's never enough wiggling in Ceroc I say! :whistle:

:yeah:

Men too! I love a man who can wiggle!

TheTramp
5th-October-2006, 05:28 PM
~stuff~



:yeah:


Ack. Please don't tell me that we agree on something! :flower:

Baruch
5th-October-2006, 08:06 PM
My frustration here is that the different organisations teach the same moves differently (one example is the yo-yo which is taught with different rotation and different hand heights on the turn out), or teach the same move but call it something else. This must confuse the hell out of beginners.
As long as the moves are led properly, minor variations in how they are executed shouldn't make a difference. I learned to dance in a LeRoc class, and although there are minor variations, I've had successful dances with Ceroc beginners without difficulty.

As for the names, who really takes notice of the names anyway? Whether you call it a Manspin, a Change Places or a Pull-Her-Forward-While Turning-Anticlockwise-An-Ending-Up-On-The-Other-Side, the basic technique is the same. It's all in the lead and follow, and as Lou pointed out, you don't need to know what a move is called in order to follow it.

Gadget
5th-October-2006, 11:01 PM
At waist level for the Manspin
At shoulder height for the Shoulder Slide
Above the head for the Step Across

If the point of Beginner moves is to introduce key concepts, then why have all 3?

I think that the "Back Pass" and "Travelling Return" should also be included in the list - it follows the same beat structure and positioning for both the lead an follower.

Key concepts for each:
All
- the lead needs to start the follower moving forward first
- you don't have to be looking at your partner (/facing them) all the time
- changing hands is 'better' done within a move rather than simply "changing hands"
- different hand heights must be distinct to avoid misinterpretation.
- positioning and orientation on the floor: each one should end with the lead and follower swapping positions. 180º. No more. No less.
- take uniform and small steps; half way through the move, you should have only travelled half the distance to your partner. No more. No less.

Manspin
- Hand keeps at waist level
- The leads know that the spare arm may get trapped, so move it out the way on the beat before, or just in time. (fore-thought within a move)
- You don't need to be holding with your hand all the time, as long as you maintain contact with your partner
- The follower turning to face is led with the lead's body
- Once the hand is released, the lead can collect with either hand again
- how to predict where the follower's hand will be for a catch (how/where to place your hand to accept a lead's catch)
- people take different sized steps back; adapt to your partner.
core of the move:L-R hand hold, low, follower moves round back of lead (or/and lead turns back on follower)

Shoulder Slide
- Hand goes to shoulder height
- Hand is placed on the body; this contact point keeps the lead informed of the follower's position and progress - don't remove it; let the lead take it again.
- If you let go immediately, the follower's hand will naturally drop during progression of the move to the natural reset position for a catch.
- It (seems to) takes longer to travel from shoulder to catch in this move than from hip to catch in the man-spin; this can be used to the advantage of either partner {I have seen this taught at a beginner's class (regularly) and I agree with it.}
- most of the man-spin stuff
core of move:L-R hand hold, shoulder height, follower moves round back of lead (or/and lead turns back on follower)

Step Across
- Hand high = someone's going to turn. Above the lead and it's them. Above the follower and it's them. Above both and you're confused.
- both partners should turn to face simultaneously
core of move:L-R hand hold, raised, follower moves round back of lead (or/and lead turns back on follower)

Back Pass
- can only be a low hand unless you're seriously bendy
- If followers grip, this move cannot work
- leads need to take (pass) the hand rather than offer...
- followers shouldn't grab for an offered hand – the lead should position themselves/their hand so that the follower naturally collects on passing.
core of the move:R-R hand hold, low, follower moves round back of lead (or/and lead turns back on follower)

Traveling Return
- can work with either hand
- need to be aware of space on the dance floor and where the lead is sendin the follower
- followers should step-turn-step rather than turning as they step
core of the move:any hand hold, raised, follower moves infront of lead (or/and lead moves infront of follower)


Notes:
The primary difference between a man-spin and a back pass is the hand you start with.
The only fundimental difference between each of these moves is the height of the hand.
A cattapult start (or half-windmill start) are very similar to the coreof these moves.
If you can manage the "core" of the move, then you can dance that move: The rest is just polish and technique to make it go smoother, communicate better with your partner and look good.


Why are they taught as these moves instead of just one or two?
Because no matter the move, you only have three heights that your hand can/should be in on each count*. This teaches them all. As well as some other stuff.

(*There are only two 'distances' each arm can be in; extended or close. There are only four directions your arm can be in; infront, to either side or behind. There are seven different hand hold combinations; rr,rl,ll,lr,rr-ll,lr-rl,none. Your orientation can either be facing, to either side or behind your partner. And they can be infront, to either side or behind you.
This gives 3(heights) x 2(distances) x 2(arms) x 7(holds) x 4(orientations) x 4(positions) = 1344 possable basic variations for each count. Is it any wonder we leads get confused now & again?)

DavidY
6th-October-2006, 01:16 AM
D'you know... it's odd, but I don't think they are. (Maybe you're too heavily influenced by Franck :wink: ). I don't think that the ordinary comb is still on the list. There was an ordinary comb in the Ceroc Beginners' class I went to tonight...