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View Full Version : Crossing the Beginner to Intermediate divide



TurboTomato
29th-September-2006, 01:48 PM
Hi all,

I won't be surprised if this has been asked before so apologies if it has, but here goes...

I've been dancing for about 4 months now and made the switch to the intermediate class about 5 weeks ago. Now the way the beginners moves are taught (beginners class at 8, short freestyle and then off with the taxi dancers to go through the moves again) seems to work well with me - doing lots and often drums it in and things started to come more naturally and I could concentrate on doing stuff like actually moving to the beat! Now I am far more confident, and I can dance freestyle (ie not just doing the 4 beginners moves in a constant cycle) and I try to vary my moves and put most of the beginners ones into a rountine (so long as I don't get stuck in a first move into a first move etc which seems to be the bane of me if I'm not concentrating :na: ).

I really struggled with the inters class to begin with - the fact that moves don't get repeated week-on-week, no extra class with taxi dancers as the beginners have, compounded with the fact that the moves themselves are obviously a lot harder makes it a lot tougher. Recently (say the last 2 weeks) I have found the inter moves a little easier, so I think just learning any inter move can help you pick up another inter move more quickly (I try to break it down into bits of beginners moves I know - so this is a bit like a basket etc but with a blah blah) if you see what I mean. After the inter class has finished I'll usually take one of my regular partners and we'll go through the moves until I know what I'm doing, but rather like when I was a beginner, I will be concentrating on doing the moves rather than listening to the music and therefore actually dancing

So I guess my question is (along with my observations!) - I would like to be able to drop one or two intermediate moves into my routines so what are some nice simple ones I can do? And to the more experienced dancers - am I going about this in the right way or am I learning to run before I can walk? As I've read on here a lot, I'd much rather be one of the dancers that can do most of the simple moves well rather than a whole reportoire of bad intermediates

Thanks in advance

Paul

TheTramp
29th-September-2006, 01:52 PM
I think that most people struggle at first when they make the step up to intermediate.

The best advice I can offer, is not to true to remember the whole intermediate routine, but pick the move that you like the most, and concentrate on that. Try and get it in a couple of times every dance that evening, and soon it'll become second nature - it's all about muscle memory.

As you rightly say, it's not about doing hundreds of moves badly, but doing the ones you do well. Give yourself a little time. In a few months, you'll have a pretty reasonable repertoire under your belt, just from your one move a class. And it won't take long before it all starts to be easier anyway...

There might also be a 'classic intermediate moves' workshop, which takes the more popular and easier intermediate moves, and teaches some of them in one session. Least, we have them in Scotland :grin:

bigdjiver
29th-September-2006, 01:58 PM
There is supposed to one "Classic" move incorporated into each intermediate lesson. These are "useful" moves, and, as there are a limited number of them, they do get repeated more often.
The other tip is to watch other dancers. Pick the moves that you like the look of. If you cannot pick them up by watching, or if it might be dangerous to try, then pay particular attention to those when they come up in the intermediate.

David Bailey
29th-September-2006, 02:14 PM
So I guess my question is (along with my observations!) - I would like to be able to drop one or two intermediate moves into my routines so what are some nice simple ones I can do?
Travelling return? For some of my dances, I reckon about half the moves are travelling returns. Actually, I dunno if that's good or not, thinking about it :blush:

The sway's a nice move too - like the travelling return, it's nice and simple, but it allows a lot of variations in terms of things like timing.

The forward-and-back (Manhatten? I'm truly useless at move names) mambo-like move is nice too.


And to the more experienced dancers - am I going about this in the right way or am I learning to run before I can walk?
Sounds fine to me.

I was going to put in some clever comment about Tango and walking here, but I ran out of inspiration, so just assume it please.

TiggsTours
29th-September-2006, 02:27 PM
Well, there's a few bits of advice I'd give to anyone moving up to intermediates, so I've aimed my response at anyone who may be thinking of taking the plunge, not just answering your question.


Its really important to be confident with the beginners moves, and not to run before you can walk. The beginner moves will contain all the technique that you need to know in order to transfer those skills to the intermediate moves.
As a leader, as well as practising the moves after with a partner (which isn't a bad thing at all) why not write them down? I know alot of leaders really benefit from doing this.
As Trampy said, don't try to learn the routine, if you can take away one move from an intermediate class and use it in your repertoire, then the class has done what it set out to acheive.
Don't think that just because you're now intermediate you can't ask the taxi dancers for help anymore, they will be more than willing to help out. Only, please remember, the taxi dancer probably wasn't in the class, probably didn't even see it, so they may not know what you're trying to do. However, they will probably work it out if you try to go through it with them, and point out where things may be going wrong.
Relax! Try to remember how hard it was when you first started, and didn't think you'd ever get the hang of one of those first move thingys! The step to intermediates is a big one, and many experienced dancers only really learn one move in a class.

Chef
29th-September-2006, 02:45 PM
And to the more experienced dancers - am I going about this in the right way or am I learning to run before I can walk? As I've read on here a lot, I'd much rather be one of the dancers that can do most of the simple moves well rather than a whole reportoire of bad intermediates


I think you are going about it in a very sensible way indeed. The transition between beginner and intermediate can be extremely tough for leaders. Followers have their own problems but leaders have the twin tasks of moving themselves AND leading the other person in the partnership.

I think that by concentrating on a limited number of moves and doing them well will be short on instant gratification but will pay dividends.

A few tips.

Find the follower in the room that is so good that she scares other dancers and find a time where she is obviously sitting a track out and ask her if she will explain to you, when she feels she has time, how to do one simple beginner move, but do it really well. I have gained huge insights into my errors by finding out what a good follower expects of me. In particular don't bounce your hands in time with the music.

Do the beginners class and revision class as a follower. Being able to feel what a follower feels, what is helpful and what is bad shows you how you might alter your own lead for the better. It feels weird but it pays off

Book yourself on a weekender. They are great fun and something wonderful happens to your dancing just by being immersed in it for a few days.


The hard thing for leaders in your position is boredom. You have done your group of known moves over and over again and quite frankly you bore yourself. So leaders have this huge hunger for moves. It is a tough time and only perserverance and an ability to take the long view that gets you through.

Good luck. I hope it all comes together for you.

Stuart M
29th-September-2006, 02:48 PM
Trampy's advice about cherry-picking from the intermediate class is good. For a long time, after the end of the Int class I would just "memory dump" all but one of the moves, and try to use that one at least once per dance for the rest of the evening.
"Classic" moves reappear in Intermediate routines less frequently than things do in the Beginner's class - more moves so less rotation of them. It's important, therefore, to practice them when they appear: chances are it'll be months before you see it taught again.

Its really important to be confident with the beginners moves, and not to run before you can walk. The beginner moves will contain all the technique that you need to know in order to transfer those skills to the intermediate moves.
One idea which I'd not thought of before is making the "switch" gradually - why not alternate between the beginner's refresher class and the Intermediate class for a few weeks?

Don't think that just because you're now intermediate you can't ask the taxi dancers for help anymore, they will be more than willing to help out. Only, please remember, the taxi dancer probably wasn't in the class, probably didn't even see it, so they may not know what you're trying to do. However, they will probably work it out if you try to go through it with them, and point out where things may be going wrong.
I've always felt there's a case for a "spare" taxi who takes part in the Intermediate class, rather than do the refresher class. It's a bit frustrating when someone comes up to me and asks about something from the Intermediate class, and I've little idea what they were meant to be doing. More importantly, it must heighten the "once you start Intermediate, you're on your own" feeling for beginners.:(

David Bailey
29th-September-2006, 03:02 PM
Trampy's advice about cherry-picking from the intermediate class is good. For a long time, after the end of the Int class I would just "memory dump" all but one of the moves, and try to use that one at least once per dance for the rest of the evening.
:(
I spent a long time as a beginner (over a year) faithfully writing down each move after each class - lots of leaders did / do.

Now we have this newfangled Interweb thingy, that's probably not so important, as most moves are described on line (e.g. in the jiveoholic (http://www.jiveoholic.org.uk)site). But some written aides-memoire might be useful.

TiggsTours
29th-September-2006, 03:15 PM
I've always felt there's a case for a "spare" taxi who takes part in the Intermediate class, rather than do the refresher class. It's a bit frustrating when someone comes up to me and asks about something from the Intermediate class, and I've little idea what they were meant to be doing. More importantly, it must heighten the "once you start Intermediate, you're on your own" feeling for beginners.:(Absolutely agree, but that does really mean having 8 taxi dancers per venue, one leader and one follower per class, and working alternate weeks. I guess you could do it with 6, so you have 1 week in every 3 off, 1 week beginner review, 1 week intermediate, 1 week off. I think most venues would love to have this luxury, but taxi dancers are hard to come by, good taxi dancers are even harder!

Stuart M
29th-September-2006, 03:36 PM
Absolutely agree, but that does really mean having 8 taxi dancers per venue, one leader and one follower per class, and working alternate weeks. I guess you could do it with 6, so you have 1 week in every 3 off, 1 week beginner review, 1 week intermediate, 1 week off. I think most venues would love to have this luxury, but taxi dancers are hard to come by, good taxi dancers are even harder!
Well, I think you'd only need one per evening, so that's 6 overall if you just have one male/female taxi normally. There were venues in Scotland where having 3 taxis on duty wasn't unusual, and some refresher classes are probably small enough to be taken by just one taxi anyway (rarely the case at my local, admittedly).

Additional side-effects of such a system - there's another opportunity to iron out basic errors. The current structure still lets too many dancers with basic flaws through (a recent Recent thread about grippers suggest this, at least), since the step up is a personal choice. And, of course, it means one more dancer in the Int class who knows what they are doing :rolleyes:

Of course, ATEOTD it's cost/benefit analysis: losing revenue from one dancer, versus improved general dance level, and potential increase in workshop attendance. Unfortunately these are both fairly intangible.

TurboTomato
29th-September-2006, 04:28 PM
Wow, this place really is a mine of information! :D

I like the idea of taking one move from the intermediate class and just focusing on that - I'd not thought of doing that and it makes sense. More travelling returns is good as well as I can just put some of them in instead of a normal return with a beginners move.

Thanks all :respect:

TurboTomato
29th-September-2006, 04:34 PM
Book yourself on a weekender. They are great fun and something wonderful happens to your dancing just by being immersed in it for a few days.


I'm booked in to Storm at Camber next March :)

Chef, you must be pretty local to me - have you ever tried either of the Tunbridge Wells venues?

TurboTomato
29th-September-2006, 04:37 PM
I've always felt there's a case for a "spare" taxi who takes part in the Intermediate class, rather than do the refresher class. It's a bit frustrating when someone comes up to me and asks about something from the Intermediate class, and I've little idea what they were meant to be doing. More importantly, it must heighten the "once you start Intermediate, you're on your own" feeling for beginners.:(

Couldn't agree more - sometimes this happens if one of the regular taxis is not dancing as a taxi on that particular night, but it would make sense to have a pair in the intermediate class as well. It would certainly make the transition easier.

Lynn
29th-September-2006, 04:41 PM
Don't think that just because you're now intermediate you can't ask the taxi dancers for help anymore, they will be more than willing to help out. Only, please remember, the taxi dancer probably wasn't in the class, probably didn't even see it, so they may not know what you're trying to do. However, they will probably work it out if you try to go through it with them, and point out where things may be going wrong.:yeah: This week I danced (after I went off duty) with a leader who is just starting to put the odd intermediate move into his dancing. I had been taking the revision class so I didn't know the intermediate moves. He tried one out, after I'd followed it I pointed out that I wasn't in the class but had still been able to follow his lead - which was encouraging for him. But likewise it would have shown up any problems and we could have worked on that.

Beowulf
29th-September-2006, 04:54 PM
not 5 seconds after finishing the Intermediate class all the moves are out of my head. All I can do is my basic beginner moves again.

so If I can't remember them 5 mins after the class then there's no hope for me remembering them the next day or the next week.

I'm thinking about going back to beginner.. at least if I can't pick up some new moves I'll learn to do the ones I know better.

I lack the dancing gene.. I got an extra helping of the geeky nerdy schmuck gene instead. :rolleyes: :rofl:

I suffer from a rare case of Sinistralitis Duplo-Orthopaedic Inversionitis.. That is I have two left feet that think they're both right's. :wink:

tsh
29th-September-2006, 05:04 PM
One thing I found wasn't very clearly explained is that it's perfectly valid to use bits and pieces of different moves (either intentionally, or to get yourself out of something you wern't expecting to happen). This, I think, is the main reason why doing lots of different moves without much structrure from week to week still helps. You're learning by experience how the lead-follow works, rather than particularly learning moves.

Sean

tsh
29th-September-2006, 05:09 PM
not 5 seconds after finishing the Intermediate class all the moves are out of my head. All I can do is my basic beginner moves again.


Does it help if you try and run through the whole routine? I (still) find this much easier than remembering a specific move. It does rely on being able to get most of the way through the routine though, maybe missing out the semi-obligatory pointless armtwister move which never quite worked in the class.

David Franklin
29th-September-2006, 05:16 PM
I've always felt there's a case for a "spare" taxi who takes part in the Intermediate class, rather than do the refresher class. It's a bit frustrating when someone comes up to me and asks about something from the Intermediate class, and I've little idea what they were meant to be doing. More importantly, it must heighten the "once you start Intermediate, you're on your own" feeling for beginners.:(Alternatively, even having the teacher spend 3 minutes with the Taxis before the start showing them what he's going to teach in the Intermediate class would make quite a difference. Failing that, you can always ask one of the more reliable intermediates: "can you show me what happened in the intermediate class in case anyone needs help with it?". I used to do this quite often for my wife when she taxied at Jive Bar.

TheTramp
30th-September-2006, 06:09 AM
I've always felt there's a case for a "spare" taxi who takes part in the Intermediate class, rather than do the refresher class. It's a bit frustrating when someone comes up to me and asks about something from the Intermediate class, and I've little idea what they were meant to be doing. More importantly, it must heighten the "once you start Intermediate, you're on your own" feeling for beginners.:(


Alternatively, even having the teacher spend 3 minutes with the Taxis before the start showing them what he's going to teach in the Intermediate class would make quite a difference. Failing that, you can always ask one of the more reliable intermediates: "can you show me what happened in the intermediate class in case anyone needs help with it?". I used to do this quite often for my wife when she taxied at Jive Bar.

Ummmm. What's wrong with actually asking the teacher? And for the taxi-dancers to refer questions about the intermediate class to the teacher. I'm sure that most of those wouldn't mind helping out anyone who asks.... :whistle:

fletch
30th-September-2006, 07:21 AM
Book yourself on a weekender. They are great fun and something wonderful happens to your dancing just by being immersed in it for a few days.





:yeah: :yeah:


and sometimes something wonderful happens with you life and its changed forever :flower:

Beowulf
30th-September-2006, 10:41 AM
Does it help if you try and run through the whole routine? .


I normally just try to run through the door instead :wink: But I get told off for that.:blush:

It's an odd thing, Doing the classes no problem.. as soon as the teacher says you're into Freestyle.. POP!! my mind goes blank.

Gojive
30th-September-2006, 10:49 AM
I normally just try to run through the door instead :wink: But I get told off for that.:blush:

It's an odd thing, Doing the classes no problem.. as soon as the teacher says you're into Freestyle.. POP!! my mind goes blank.

That happens when you've been dancing for 7 years too - trust me! :wink:

I don't really think there's a wrong or right way to deal with this to be honest. Everyone's 'success story' will be different of course. I'd suggest you write down all the tips, and try them out in turn (give each a few weeks trial though), and see what seems to be working for you.

Whatever happens, don't despair! Everytime you attend an intermediate class (or any other for that matter), you will be learning something...it just might not be obvious at the time :)

Anyway, things that have worked for me, include writing down moves that I particularly enjoyed, practising all the moves from the routine during the freestyle period immediately following the lesson (say the first 15 mins or so), and weekenders! :clap:

Good luck, have fun, enjoy whatever learning curve you encounter, and keep dancing! :cheers:

DavidY
30th-September-2006, 11:00 AM
Anyway, things that have worked for me, include writing down moves that I particularly enjoyed, practising all the moves from the routine during the freestyle period immediately following the lesson (say the first 15 mins or so), and weekenders! :clap: :yeah: These are the things I used to do as well (took me a while to discover weekenders though). Writing moves down used to work for me - I had to make sure I did this when they were still fresh in my mind.

I've heard that running through moves in your mind immediately before you go to sleep is helpful, and a recent news story in New Scientist (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/dn10138-snooze-your-way-to-high-test-scores.html) seems to be saying something similar.

Stuart M
30th-September-2006, 05:57 PM
Ummmm. What's wrong with actually asking the teacher? And for the taxi-dancers to refer questions about the intermediate class to the teacher. I'm sure that most of those wouldn't mind helping out anyone who asks.... :whistle:
Ummm...nothing! We usually do at the moment.

Just suggesting ways of reducing the "you're on your own" feeling which beginners are currently left with, when they step up. It was something I felt when I was learning - whether it's a major issue, I'm not sure.

:D

Frankie_4711
4th-October-2006, 10:14 AM
Ummmm. What's wrong with actually asking the teacher?

I was wondering how long it was going to be before someone came up with the most obvious answer! They do usually say at the end of the class that they are happy to run through things if anyone has any problems or questions about the routine/moves (well, mine mostly do, anyway!).

Or an off duty Taxi who was in the Intermediate class instead of the on duty ones who weren't? I know I don't mind if someone asks me to do this when I'm off duty (which happens most weeks!), and I would hope that most Taxis are friendly, approachable and helpful enough to do the same.

But I do also like the idea of having a third Taxi (or pair?) on duty for the Intermediate class. Personally, I wouldn't even see that as an extra working week, as it's exactly what I would be doing anyway, just without the T-shirt! But with the T-shirt, people would then maybe feel less 'guilty' about asking for the help that I'm perfectly willing to give anyway!

TheTramp
4th-October-2006, 10:18 AM
I was wondering how long it was going to be before someone came up with the most obvious answer!

That's me. I can do obvious. It's the tricky answers I'm not so good at :tears:

Chef
4th-October-2006, 11:27 AM
I'm booked in to Storm at Camber next March :)

Chef, you must be pretty local to me - have you ever tried either of the Tunbridge Wells venues?

There are a number of other weekenders coming up before storm but they are not run by Ceroc. If you are interested in more information please send me a private message.

I am very local to you. I now live just south of Tunbridge wells. Tunbridge Wells High Rocks venue used to be my regular haunt when I started dancing back in 1999 when it was being run by RebelRoc. I used to be really addicted, dancing 6 nights a week, but feel much better now that I have cut it down to 4 nights per week. Fortuately, now that High Rocks is owned by Ceroc they have retained the same fantastic DJ. Unfortunately I don't get to go there because it clashes with my evening for learning Argentine Tango, but if the AT class is having a closure or we just feel too tired for a long drive to the class we still enjoy a night there.

I don't go to the Salomons Centre on the Wednesday because Weds used to be my regular night to visit my mother but now that evening has been changed so that I can go to West Coast Swing Classes. Salomons has never been somewhere that I really yearned to go to because I find the really dark decor oppressive and the floor poor to dance on. I would like to go once or twice because a number of my collegues also dance there.

Since you are also in the area I would like to reccomend Maidstone Ceroc on the Thursday night. Gordon and Sally are excellent teachers, provide a wide ranging mix of interesting music and are thoroughly nice people to know. Well worth the drive (but Maidstone councils policy on evening parking sucks - £1 for the evening).

Send me a PM if you want to chat about anything dancing.

Frankie_4711
4th-October-2006, 11:35 AM
... Since you are also in the area I would like to reccomend Maidstone Ceroc on the Thursday night. Gordon and Sally are excellent teachers, provide a wide ranging mix of interesting music and are thoroughly nice people to know. Well worth the drive ...

Well said Chef! Maidstone is a great venue - just wish I could get back there more often these days!

karlhudds
4th-October-2006, 05:29 PM
lol im not very good at getting into these conversations quickly lol but anyway here it goooooes

i belive once you have truly masterd the beginer moves to the point where your cutting them up and intertwining them up. lol sounds complicated allready lol it is'nt. and you have mastard things like the "slot" or "track" and or being able to dance without worring about other people. then in MY opinion putting intermedeate moves in a dance is like soooooooo easy lol but when youve dune all that then i would put you as an itermediate dancer anyway lol because in MY veiw a dancer can do three moves and make them all look realy good but keeping them all simple

happy dancing

SteveK
5th-October-2006, 01:07 PM
I think that most people struggle at first when they make the step up to intermediate.

The best advice I can offer, is not to true to remember the whole intermediate routine, but pick the move that you like the most, and concentrate on that. Try and get it in a couple of times every dance that evening, and soon it'll become second nature - it's all about muscle memory.




:yeah:

The other trick I've learnt is to only bother to remember the moves that you can lead. You can learn the move in the class, but if it is really hard to get someone who wasn't in the class to follow you afterwards, it's less worthwhile trying to remember it. The best way to try this is to go dancing with anyone only turning up for the freestyle. If they can follow you through the move, it's worth remembering; whilst if it goes pear-shaped, keep dancing and smiling but don't bother with it again.

TurboTomato
5th-October-2006, 01:12 PM
I am very local to you. I now live just south of Tunbridge wells. Tunbridge Wells High Rocks venue used to be my regular haunt when I started dancing back in 1999 when it was being run by RebelRoc. I used to be really addicted, dancing 6 nights a week, but feel much better now that I have cut it down to 4 nights per week. Fortuately, now that High Rocks is owned by Ceroc they have retained the same fantastic DJ. Unfortunately I don't get to go there because it clashes with my evening for learning Argentine Tango, but if the AT class is having a closure or we just feel too tired for a long drive to the class we still enjoy a night there.

I don't go to the Salomons Centre on the Wednesday because Weds used to be my regular night to visit my mother but now that evening has been changed so that I can go to West Coast Swing Classes. Salomons has never been somewhere that I really yearned to go to because I find the really dark decor oppressive and the floor poor to dance on. I would like to go once or twice because a number of my collegues also dance there.

Since you are also in the area I would like to reccomend Maidstone Ceroc on the Thursday night. Gordon and Sally are excellent teachers, provide a wide ranging mix of interesting music and are thoroughly nice people to know. Well worth the drive (but Maidstone councils policy on evening parking sucks - £1 for the evening).

Send me a PM if you want to chat about anything dancing.

Do you know Alan that dances at High Rocks then? He comes along to Salomons as well, but I think he taxis at High Rocks

I guess it's down to personal preferences but I actually prefer our regular DJ at Salomons to the one that does High Rocks - we had him standing in for our one while he was away for 2 weeks and I did High Rocks a couple of weeks back and I found myself dancing less than I would normally. But as I say it's all down to personal preferences, but I can't rate our current one highly enough - the tracks he puts on makes me want to dance and that is the point after all!

I guess that I'm not at a high enough level to particularly worry about the floor as yet but I really really enjoy dancing there - as I've said I like the music, I feel the atmosphere is nice and friendly, and Steve is a very good teacher, managing to mix good technical teaching while keeping it light hearted and a good laugh. I quite like the grand decor as well, even though it is a bit dark as you say!

Maidstone is a venue that I haven't tried yet so I shall add it to my list!

fletch
5th-October-2006, 01:14 PM
The best way to try this is to go dancing with anyone only turning up for the freestyle. If they can follow you through the move, it's worth remembering; whilst if it goes pear-shaped, keep dancing and smiling but don't bother with it again.

:yeah:


I offten get guy's saying 'did you do the class' my responce is no, but show me the routeen :waycool: its usually a good indicator weather its going to work or not. :flower:

Trousers
5th-October-2006, 01:55 PM
When I started jiving at the Finegans Wake (now known as the Stoke) in Guildford the Ceroc machine did not do these refresher classes that happen everywhere now.

The guy I went with just said 'do the second class, you'll cope!' and I did, although the first two weeks I went I was completely out of my depth at the end of the second lesson and could not remember diddly. So for the first two weeks I just legged it as soon as I got off the floor at 9.30.

Third week which was after a break of about 2 weeks did the same and it all seemed to click, could remember enough to keep me moving and could find enough women to say yes so that I didn't leave the floor.


Now we have these refresher classes I'm sure the newbies feel even more out of place and inadequate because they are shipped out of our presence whilst we all learn (or more likely watch) some supposedly more difficult moves. How big this so called divide must feel to them. I think these beginners refresher classes should be done during the 15 mins freestyle and then the people can have a go at the next class too.

Worked for me!

At the end of the day there are only moves and more moves. Some are difficult to learn some not so. But in freestyle no one genuinely thinks 'oh this is a newbie I ought not lead a double ringer etc.etc. because it's an intermediate move'. The task you, as a lead have, is to lead that move whatever it is well enough so that the follower can follow. Newbie Leads have the task to lead that move whatever it is well enough so that the follower can follow.
Where is the line of demarcation there - Gosh you are good you noticed there isn't one.

If we treat these people that are new to our dance like beginners they will act, think and behave like beginners. Treat them like dancers and they will raise their game to fit.


Oh I ain't posted for ages
That felt good
:)

fletch
5th-October-2006, 02:44 PM
Oh I ain't posted for ages
That felt good
:)

missed you :flower:

what you been up to :confused:


:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

Trousers
5th-October-2006, 03:05 PM
Me just waiting for something decent to post against.

There have been no good or even mediocre threads to post in for a couple of weeks.

It seems that every other new thread begins HOW? WHERE? or WHY? More than likely associated with a poll. There has been nothing remotely interesting to read in here.

This thread is crap too but I had a tuppenybits worth of input! Even then my point of view if accepted would invalidate the need for the thread in the first place.

I need to feel there is a point to what I write, inane drivel I try to avoid.

You know me - gimme a good bone to chew and I will (even if I get a slap from the Mods) - and when I find a good bone my self i'll throw it into the fray. But don't you think the subject matter in the threads of late has been dire? How long have u been dancing, when did you start, do you dance with fat people, do you dance with ugly people, are you confident or cocky. It's all ordinary.

And unfortunately I have not been able to rise to the occaision with a good thread - Nearly did one following the funeral I went to on Tuesday but couldn't be arsed in the end.

:sad:

Chef
5th-October-2006, 04:39 PM
I think we are going to have to take this chat onto private messages to aviod annoying the good folk here. Just in case you don't know how to use pirvate messages (PMs) yet then this is how you do so. In the top right of your screen there is an orange Private Messages link. Click on it and then on the left hand side of the page that opens there is a link to send a new private message - click on it. You then have a standard email style interface. Fill in the boxes and then hit send at the bottom of the screen when you have said your peice. The private messages page is the same place you go to open messages that have been sent to you. If you already know this then sorry.


Do you know Alan that dances at High Rocks then? He comes along to Salomons as well, but I think he taxis at High Rocks

I don't often get to know the names of the guys at dance venues because I don't dance with them that often (not as often as I should) but they all seem to know me because I am "that strange guy in Chefs trousers".



I guess it's down to personal preferences but I actually prefer our regular DJ at Salomons to the one that does High Rocks - we had him standing in for our one while he was away for 2 weeks and I did High Rocks a couple of weeks back and I found myself dancing less than I would normally. But as I say it's all down to personal preferences, but I can't rate our current one highly enough - the tracks he puts on makes me want to dance and that is the point after all!

Yes it is personal preferance but those preferances tend to change with time so it is always nice to hace a number of venues where there is a slightly different "flavour" at each. If you didn't like the DJ from High Rocks selection that much then maybe you won't think much of Maidstone. Maidstone also plays a fair bit of swingy, latin and bluesy type music much in the style of the High Rocks DJ (Bob). Still think it would be worth trying them out and making your own mind up.




I guess that I'm not at a high enough level to particularly worry about the floor as yet but I really really enjoy dancing there - as I've said I like the music, I feel the atmosphere is nice and friendly, and Steve is a very good teacher, managing to mix good technical teaching while keeping it light hearted and a good laugh. I quite like the grand decor as well, even though it is a bit dark as you say!

The quality of the floor is more important for the ladies because they are spinning on it a lot. So sticky, uneven or cracked floors give them much more trouble than us guys. I know my partner really doesn't like the floor at Salomons for that and wears dance sneakers instead of heels when she goes there. Steves a nice guy and a down to earth teacher. We have known each other long enough to remember when each other was slim.



Maidstone is a venue that I haven't tried yet so I shall add it to my list

From what you say the music might not be quite your taste but everything else I said holds true. You also get a nice bunch of other dancers in there as well.

Our next messages will be by PM.

Frankie_4711
5th-October-2006, 04:58 PM
... Steve is a very good teacher, managing to mix good technical teaching while keeping it light hearted and a good laugh ...

You could also try Rochester then, as Steve teaches there too. Not sure who DJs with him at Salomons, but got a feeling it could be Ian who DJs at Rochester, so you'd probably feel quite at home.

fletch
5th-October-2006, 05:42 PM
.

I need to feel there is a point to what I write, inane drivel I try to avoid.

And unfortunately I have not been able to rise to the occaision
:sad:


I try to avoid it also :rolleyes:


gosh :eek: not been able to rise to the occaision :whistle: thats what I had heard :wink:


:rofl:



.

Trousers
5th-October-2006, 07:53 PM
I try to avoid it also :rolleyes:


gosh :eek: not been able to rise to the occaision :whistle: thats what I had heard :wink:


:rofl:
.

i'm shocked!

fletch
5th-October-2006, 08:10 PM
i'm shocked!


what not scared :wink:

Trousers
5th-October-2006, 08:22 PM
what not scared :wink:

oh no



lol

TurboTomato
5th-October-2006, 11:32 PM
You could also try Rochester then, as Steve teaches there too. Not sure who DJs with him at Salomons, but got a feeling it could be Ian who DJs at Rochester, so you'd probably feel quite at home.

Ian rings a bell, so it could well be him. He likes to get up and dance as well!

whitetiger1518
9th-October-2006, 01:36 PM
At the end of the day there are only moves and more moves. Some are difficult to learn some not so. But in freestyle no one genuinely thinks 'oh this is a newbie I ought not lead a double ringer etc.etc. because it's an intermediate move'. The task you, as a lead have, is to lead that move whatever it is well enough so that the follower can follow. Newbie Leads have the task to lead that move whatever it is well enough so that the follower can follow.
Where is the line of demarcation there - Gosh you are good you noticed there isn't one.

If we treat these people that are new to our dance like beginners they will act, think and behave like beginners. Treat them like dancers and they will raise their game to fit.
:)

I was treated as a dancer on my first night with int dancers giving me at least a dozen moves that I hadn't seen before in my first sets of freestyle.... All it did was get me addicted even quicker... Ah welll bye bye spare time - I had no use for it anyway :)

Whitetiger

Gav
10th-October-2006, 02:21 PM
I think the difference between beginner and intermediate (as the status of a dancer) is a state of mind.

Those wonderful people :hug: that danced with me for the first time at Bliss will know how terribly underconfident I am about my dancing, despite having done it for 9 months and getting plenty of compliments. I really did regard myself as a beginner.

Bliss has given me bags more confidence and I no longer see myself as a beginner (still not arrogant/confident enough to think of myself as anything special) and having danced at my local venue for the first time since Bliss, last night. I'm told that the new confidence shows.

David Bailey
10th-October-2006, 02:37 PM
I think the difference between beginner and intermediate (as the status of a dancer) is a state of mind.
Absolutely. :yeah:

In fact, I'd go further and say that classifying dancers in that way is unhelpful.

What is helpful, is classifying classes in that way.

So I think "advanced dancer" is elitist, but "advanced class" just indicates a level of difficulty or prerequisites to do that class.

TurboTomato
12th-October-2006, 03:01 PM
Just wanted to say thanks for the tips - last wed the inter moves weren't too bad so I decided to concentrate on just one of them to put into a routine. We'd done the step-across in the beginners class, and it was based on that but you as you step under your arm, you drop the ladies arm behind your head and lead her round behind you with your right arm to begin with, then once all the way round, one clockwise spin and a return. A nice move :D And as SeriouslyAddicted can testify I put it into a freestyle routine on saturday, though only she can tell you how successfully :blush: Cherry picking moves like that seem to be a good way of learning :D

bigdjiver
12th-October-2006, 03:21 PM
I would suggest, where possible, we substitute "Learner" for "beginner".

David Bailey
12th-October-2006, 03:41 PM
I would suggest, where possible, we substitute "Learner" for "beginner".
:rofl: We're all learners!

(Yes, I know, we're all beginners too...)

Gav
12th-October-2006, 03:42 PM
:rofl: We're all learners!

(Yes, I know, we're all beginners too...)

Careful, someone'll suggest we all start wearing coloured wristbands! :rofl:

Jhutch
12th-October-2006, 04:09 PM
Just wanted to say thanks for the tips - last wed the inter moves weren't too bad so I decided to concentrate on just one of them to put into a routine. We'd done the step-across in the beginners class, and it was based on that but you as you step under your arm, you drop the ladies arm behind your head and lead her round behind you with your right arm to begin with, then once all the way round, one clockwise spin and a return. A nice move :D And as SeriouslyAddicted can testify I put it into a freestyle routine on saturday, though only she can tell you how successfully :blush: Cherry picking moves like that seem to be a good way of learning :D

Am finding this an interesting and quite useful thread.

Have been going to intermediate lessons for a while now and i find putting them into routines difficult. Part of the problem is that at the end of an intermediate class i find that all other intermediate moves that i have learnt disappear out of my head and i have to spend a couple of minutes trying to remember them:blush: Doing the routine in freestyle never seems to work quite right. What does seem to work better is the learn one move properly and do that in freestyle as much as possible. A bit annoying, especially as i wasnt really able to pick up anything from my first few intermediate lessons. This has meant that i have spent a lot of time just doing beginner moves and they seem a bit boring now:sad: Adding on intermediate moves one at a time is not really very satisfactory as i am still doing loads of beginner moves, but i guess that is the way things will have to be:nice:

Gav
12th-October-2006, 04:15 PM
Am finding this an interesting and quite useful thread.

Have been going to intermediate lessons for a while now and i find putting them into routines difficult. Part of the problem is that at the end of an intermediate class i find that all other intermediate moves that i have learnt disappear out of my head and i have to spend a couple of minutes trying to remember them:blush: Doing the routine in freestyle never seems to work quite right. What does seem to work better is the learn one move properly and do that in freestyle as much as possible. A bit annoying, especially as i wasnt really able to pick up anything from my first few intermediate lessons. This has meant that i have spent a lot of time just doing beginner moves and they seem a bit boring now:sad: Adding on intermediate moves one at a time is not really very satisfactory as i am still doing loads of beginner moves, but i guess that is the way things will have to be:nice:

Aha, but that's just impatience (and I'm the last person who should be preaching about patience).

I'm doing just that, adding one intermediate move at a time until I feel I'm good enough at it, then add another.

Personally, after 9 months, most of my freestyle consists of beginners moves (or simple variations of) and a few good intermediate moves.

I pride myself on the fact that I'm actually pretty good at the simple moves that I do, as opposed to knowing a lot of moves and not being especially good at any of them. Whether that's true or not, might be a different story, you'd have to ask someone that's seen me or danced with me!

SeriouslyAddicted
13th-October-2006, 08:55 AM
Just wanted to say thanks for the tips - last wed the inter moves weren't too bad so I decided to concentrate on just one of them to put into a routine. We'd done the step-across in the beginners class, and it was based on that but you as you step under your arm, you drop the ladies arm behind your head and lead her round behind you with your right arm to begin with, then once all the way round, one clockwise spin and a return. A nice move :D And as SeriouslyAddicted can testify I put it into a freestyle routine on saturday, though only she can tell you how successfully :blush: Cherry picking moves like that seem to be a good way of learning :D

And a very good lead it was too :respect:

SeriouslyAddicted
13th-October-2006, 08:58 AM
Aha, but that's just impatience (and I'm the last person who should be preaching about patience).

I'm doing just that, adding one intermediate move at a time until I feel I'm good enough at it, then add another.

Personally, after 9 months, most of my freestyle consists of beginners moves (or simple variations of) and a few good intermediate moves.

I pride myself on the fact that I'm actually pretty good at the simple moves that I do, as opposed to knowing a lot of moves and not being especially good at any of them. Whether that's true or not, might be a different story, you'd have to ask someone that's seen me or danced with me!

from a female perspective I would much rather dance with someone that does the beginners moves well :worthy: rather than somebody who tries to do complex intermediate moves badly - and in the process loses the rhythm or ends up injuring you in some way or other:sick:

Gav
13th-October-2006, 09:00 AM
from a female perspective I would much rather dance with someone that does the beginners moves well :worthy: rather than somebody who tries to do complex intermediate moves badly - and in the process loses the rhythm or ends up injuring you in some way or other:sick:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Might have to take a trip down to Kent then!

Frankie_4711
13th-October-2006, 11:04 AM
from a female perspective I would much rather dance with someone that does the beginners moves well :worthy: rather than somebody who tries to do complex intermediate moves badly - and in the process loses the rhythm or ends up injuring you in some way or other:sick:

Totally agree ...

BUT on the other hand ...

I've been leading for a year and a half now. I decided to learn the lead for 2 reasons:

1. I was beginning to get a bit bored in the Beginners class and thought that the change would do me good

2. There are always so many ladies to move around I thought that one extra 'man' a one less lady would be helpful

ie I didn't decide to learn it because I wanted to lead. Consequently for over a year I only did the Beginners class and the first freestyle dance that continues on from the class, so it didn't matter that I only knew Beginner moves. Also, once I'd learnt all the moves from the lead's side I chopped and changed between which role I took for the Beginners class depending on mood and numbers, so I got a bit of variety.

After a while though I actually wanted to lead, but by then I was already bored of only doing Beginner moves, and really wanted to move on, but didn't feel ready to sacrifice learning the intermediate moves as a follower (still don't!). So I asked a friend to teach me one new intermediate move each week - but that only lasted a few weeks for some unknown reason! So a few months down the line I have done 2 Intermediate classes as a lead (it would be helpful if all my teachers would demo the Intermediate routine so I can decide which role to take, otherwise I automatically do the follow just in case there's something new (from follower's POV) or tricky (from lead's POV) in there), one 'classics' class at a special event and picked up a few from my friend or just watching - a total of 15 Intermediate moves ... and I'm still bored - and I only take the lead for two or three dances a night! I can't imagine how bored I'd be if I was dancing the whole night with the same few moves! So I can totally sympathise with all you guys out there who just want to move on, but from the follower's POV, know how important it is NOT to too quickly.

Kinda contradicting myself here I know, but seeing it from both sides actually DOESN'T help in this situation!

What a pointless post! But I've spent the time typing it now, so it's gonna get posted!:rofl:

TurboTomato
13th-October-2006, 12:03 PM
And a very good lead it was too :respect:

You're too nice :hug: It's only because you follow very well and correct my mistakes :na:

SeriouslyAddicted
13th-October-2006, 01:19 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Might have to take a trip down to Kent then!
Look forward to seeing you down here!

bigdjiver
13th-October-2006, 01:30 PM
:rofl: We're all learners!Precisely my point, its "we" not "us" and "they".


... Have been going to intermediate lessons for a while now and i find putting them into routines difficult. Part of the problem is that at the end of an intermediate class i find that all other intermediate moves that i have learnt disappear out of my head and i have to spend a couple of minutes trying to remember them:blush: Doing the routine in freestyle never seems to work quite right. What does seem to work better is the learn one move properly and do that in freestyle as much as possible. A bit annoying, especially as i wasnt really able to pick up anything from my first few intermediate lessons. This has meant that i have spent a lot of time just doing beginner moves and they seem a bit boring now:sad: Adding on intermediate moves one at a time is not really very satisfactory as i am still doing loads of beginner moves, but i guess that is the way things will have to be:nice:I wish that teachers (they will not, so substitute more ladies) would tell new intermediates that most intermediate moves should be regarded as dance exercises, not something to be learned and applied. If you ask some of your partners in a class which moves they like best it will give a clue to which ones are worth learning. Sometimes the answer is "none of them".

Jhutch
13th-October-2006, 02:32 PM
Precisely my point, its "we" not "us" and "they".

I wish that teachers (they will not, so substitute more ladies) would tell new intermediates that most intermediate moves should be regarded as dance exercises, not something to be learned and applied. If you ask some of your partners in a class which moves they like best it will give a clue to which ones are worth learning. Sometimes the answer is "none of them".

Yeah, i know:nice: I do try to ask the women i am more friendly with which ones they like and which ones they don't. Added to this there are some where i don't feel comfortable doing them. The most obvious ones would be dips/drops but there are other ones where i am not happy that if i get things a bit wrong then i may end up hurting the woman. I haven't done this to anyone but there are some which just make me feel uneasy. It normally ends up with me trying to remember the easiest move:grin:

Yogi_Bear
14th-October-2006, 11:41 PM
Precisely my point, its "we" not "us" and "they".

I wish that teachers (they will not, so substitute more ladies) would tell new intermediates that most intermediate moves should be regarded as dance exercises, not something to be learned and applied. If you ask some of your partners in a class which moves they like best it will give a clue to which ones are worth learning. Sometimes the answer is "none of them".

I would agree. If you take out the intermediate moves that are just downright unleadable, potentially dangerous, boring, unlikeable, hard to remember or too difficult you will be left with a collection of moves to actually apply in your social dancing. From these, you will probably go on to devise your own variations or interpretations. And after that, you may stop thinking about accumulating a repertoire of moves but more about how to apply and develop what you know when faced with a dance partner and a particular piece of music.....that's when it gets really interesting.

Yogi_Bear
14th-October-2006, 11:44 PM
Yeah, i know:nice: I do try to ask the women i am more friendly with which ones they like and which ones they don't. Added to this there are some where i don't feel comfortable doing them. The most obvious ones would be dips/drops but there are other ones where i am not happy that if i get things a bit wrong then i may end up hurting the woman. I haven't done this to anyone but there are some which just make me feel uneasy. It normally ends up with me trying to remember the easiest move:grin:

Choosing the easiest moves is often the best idea. You know how to execute them, you proabably like dancing them. That will give you more scope to think about everything else that's going on.

Jhutch
17th-October-2006, 02:17 PM
Choosing the easiest moves is often the best idea. You know how to execute them, you proabably like dancing them. That will give you more scope to think about everything else that's going on.

Yes, these are the basic reasons why i choose to do the easy ones :) I have tried doing some of the harder ones while freestyling afterwards but they end up with me losing the rhythm (and that is if i manage to get the move right). Also, in the class, the woman knows what is coming next and so will be ready for that move. However, in freestyle she won't necessarily*, especially if she didn't attend the class. In such cases there seems little point on trying to get it right for the rest of the night. All it will do is knock my confidence and i think i am better off trying to get simpler stuff right and concentrate on dancing to the rhythm.

From reading above it seems as though most leaders try to write down moves? I haven't actually tried doing this but then i attend twice a week at the moment so the moves tend to be reasonably fresh in my mind. I just feel that if i haven't got it by the end of the session then i am unlikely to be able to do it until several months down the line - and at this time i am likely to be busy learning (at least some) of the ones that come up in the weekly classes. I suppose if you have a partner at home then it can help though as you can trial them out again at home.

Also, i think someone asked early in the thread for some easy intermediate moves? I think that the wurlitzer has to be the easiest that i have done so far.

What are women's views on neck breaks? The women i talk to most say that they dont mind them yet i haven't seen many people doing them in freestyle:sick: Is there a reason for this?


*One awkward thing is that if you are doing the first move or two moves of the routine then the woman might think you are doing the whole routine. When you go onto something else instead of the next move in the routine then she can get puzzled or stop and tell you what you should be doing. In this instance i find that a slightly firmer lead is best to show that you do know what you are doing (or at least think you do:blush: )

Gav
17th-October-2006, 02:25 PM
Also, in the class, the woman knows what is coming next and so will be ready for that move. However, in freestyle she won't necessarily*, especially if she didn't attend the class. In such cases there seems little point on trying to get it right for the rest of the night. All it will do is knock my confidence and i think i am better off trying to get simpler stuff right and concentrate on dancing to the rhythm.
*One awkward thing is that if you are doing the first move or two moves of the routine then the woman might think you are doing the whole routine. When you go onto something else instead of the next move in the routine then she can get puzzled or stop and tell you what you should be doing. In this instance i find that a slightly firmer lead is best to show that you do know what you are doing (or at least think you do:blush: )

I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames for this one, but what you're talking about is one of the lessons that followers have to learn, not one that you should be compensating for or they never will learn.
It seems that one of the hard things for beginner followers to learn is to not anticipate the next move, wait for a lead or a signal.
There have been several occasions when followers have thrown themselves at the ground in front of me (I've managed to catch them all so far) because they'e only seen drops/dips following from the move I've just done, whereas I've learnt plenty of non-dangerous ways to finish the move and in no way did anything to make them think a drop/dip was coming.

David Bailey
17th-October-2006, 02:57 PM
I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames for this one, but what you're talking about is one of the lessons that followers have to learn, not one that you should be compensating for or they never will learn.
Shoot, shoot, shoot... Hold on, no, that's all perfectly sensible advice.

The big danger of learning routines (and, for that matter, moves) is that you learn the routine and not the dance. Leads to anticipation, leads to fear, leads to the Dark Side etc.

Not just in MJ, by the way - it's a real problem in Tango with things like the "basic 8" move - for example, when followers anticipate a cross. The first few times you mess around with the timing whilst practicing, lots of followers are taken by surprise.

But MJ is particularly bad in this respect because most classes focus so much on the routine, and so little on the actual steps or technique.

It'd be very nice if Ceroc teachers were to mention that these moves can be done in any order during the beginner / review class, but I don't believe this happens, does it?

TurboTomato
17th-October-2006, 04:58 PM
It'd be very nice if Ceroc teachers were to mention that these moves can be done in any order during the beginner / review class, but I don't believe this happens, does it?

They don't but then the moves they tend to choose flow in order with some left- and some right-handed moves making sure that you end on the correct hand to start the next move. When I'm dancing with a beginner I stick to the 4 moves in order, for their sake rather than mine, maybe I should think about doing something different?

Alice
17th-October-2006, 05:19 PM
They don't but then the moves they tend to choose flow in order with some left- and some right-handed moves making sure that you end on the correct hand to start the next move. When I'm dancing with a beginner I stick to the 4 moves in order, for their sake rather than mine, maybe I should think about doing something different?
I'd say it depends on how new the beginner is.

I'd definitely agree that it would be easier on them to start off with the moves from the class in the order taught- but at the same time, learning to freestyle is also about learning to mix it up (ie follow).

If they're a really new beginner who might start to panic at a new order of moves, it might be helpful to start off with the moves exactly as taught, then warn them in advance that you're going to change the order. I've done this before myself if I notice they're the pedantic type:P (also useful if you forget the order of moves and do them the wrong way round:whistle: )

Frankie_4711
17th-October-2006, 07:49 PM
What are women's views on neck breaks? The women i talk to most say that they dont mind them yet i haven't seen many people doing them in freestyle:sick: Is there a reason for this?

I do a lot of neckbreaks, both as lead and follow - I like them. I suppose some women that are not that comfortable getting close may not like the middle bit where they are wrapped in towards their partner - I felt a bit uncomfortable with this when I was relatively new and wasn't sure what was happening - I learnt neckbreaks simply from following during freestyle (once the signal had been explained to me!), not in a class, so didn't have a clue what was coming, and suddenly I'm almost nose to nose with a complete stranger ... and then I'd forgotten by the next time, so was taken by surprise again ... several times! I learnt eventually what was coming, and by then was getting more comfortable with the whole 'being closer' thing.

David Bailey
17th-October-2006, 08:18 PM
They don't but then the moves they tend to choose flow in order with some left- and some right-handed moves making sure that you end on the correct hand to start the next move. When I'm dancing with a beginner I stick to the 4 moves in order, for their sake rather than mine, maybe I should think about doing something different?
But,. from this post in the "this week's routine" thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=287890&postcount=38), I understood that one of the main raisons-d'etre of the Beginners Moves is that they can be done in any order:

... every Ceroc beginner move starts and ends in exactly the same position with the same hand hold and the same orientation. This is what makes any move able to link to any other move with ease.
So therefore, why not mention this as part of the spiel for the teacher?

It'd only take 10 seconds, and should provide a lot of illumination.

Gojive
17th-October-2006, 09:00 PM
Yes, these are the basic reasons why i choose to do the easy ones :) I have tried doing some of the harder ones while freestyling afterwards but they end up with me losing the rhythm (and that is if i manage to get the move right). Also, in the class, the woman knows what is coming next and so will be ready for that move. However, in freestyle she won't necessarily*, especially if she didn't attend the class. In such cases there seems little point on trying to get it right for the rest of the night. All it will do is knock my confidence and i think i am better off trying to get simpler stuff right and concentrate on dancing to the rhythm.

I know it's easy to say don't let getting things wrong worry you, but it really is an ideal worth pursuing John. There isn't a dancer in this land, of any age and experience, that still doesn't make mistakes in nearly every dance they undertake (both leaders and followers). Do keep trying the new moves in freestyle - they are vital to progressing the learning curve of leading, and you get HUGE satisfaction when it all clicks into place, and you lead it perfectly on an unsuspecting woman/follower .



From reading above it seems as though most leaders try to write down moves? I haven't actually tried doing this but then i attend twice a week at the moment so the moves tend to be reasonably fresh in my mind. I just feel that if i haven't got it by the end of the session then i am unlikely to be able to do it until several months down the line - and at this time i am likely to be busy learning (at least some) of the ones that come up in the weekly classes. I suppose if you have a partner at home then it can help though as you can trial them out again at home.

I have scribbled notes from classes and weekenders, going back some 7 years....most of the time, I can't even read my own writing :eek: , but every now and then, a quick perusal of the notes makes me sit up and think "hey! I forgot I loved that move - must try it tonight!"



*One awkward thing is that if you are doing the first move or two moves of the routine then the woman might think you are doing the whole routine. When you go onto something else instead of the next move in the routine then she can get puzzled or stop and tell you what you should be doing. In this instance i find that a slightly firmer lead is best to show that you do know what you are doing (or at least think you do:blush: )

I know exactly where you're coming from with this :) . My way of combating it, is to think during the class of a basic move I can tag this new one on to. Then at the end of the lesson when you go twice through and into freestyle, I make a point of trying my link up out. This way, we're both still practising the moves that we've just learnt (after all, the lady/follower has paid to learn too! :wink: ), but it kinda removes the pre-empting scenario.

HTH :)

Gojive
17th-October-2006, 09:07 PM
And can I just say, what an absolute pleasure this thread is to read and take part in...a pure MJ thread, full of useful information and questions, and utterly devoid of chit-chat or chest puffers :clap:

More please :waycool:

bigdjiver
17th-October-2006, 09:51 PM
I think that telling a beginner class that the moves can be done in any order runs the risk of someone trying to do them in a different order in the class. Many beginners are in an overload state, and the lesson part of the lesson should be kept as simple and as repetitive as possible for them.

TurboTomato
17th-October-2006, 10:13 PM
But,. from this post in the "this week's routine" thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=287890&postcount=38), I understood that one of the main raisons-d'etre of the Beginners Moves is that they can be done in any order:

So therefore, why not mention this as part of the spiel for the teacher?

It'd only take 10 seconds, and should provide a lot of illumination.

Surely that's not right? Correct me if I'm wrong (I've only been doing this since June and there are people with far more experience than me on here) but the whole point of say a shoulder slide or a man spin is to swap hands (starting left, ending right) along with a few others.

Jhutch
17th-October-2006, 10:20 PM
I think that telling a beginner class that the moves can be done in any order runs the risk of someone trying to do them in a different order in the class. Many beginners are in an overload state, and the lesson part of the lesson should be kept as simple and as repetitive as possible for them.

I tend to agree. Most people in their first lesson are probably best off just learning the moves IMO and trying to match them to the music. When they go the second time they will learn other moves - these may all be new or have some repeated moves. If entirely new then they will probably be busy learning these new moves. However, if they come across new moves then it should then become clear to them that the different moves can be changed around.:)

Gojive
17th-October-2006, 10:21 PM
Surely that's not right? Correct me if I'm wrong (I've only been doing this since June and there are people with far more experience than me on here) but the whole point of say a shoulder slide or a man spin is to swap hands (starting left, ending right) along with a few others.

That's certainly the main reason for this move pushed in classes TT, however it's also one of a number of moves that you can use while you think "oh b*gger, what am I gonna do next :eek:!! " - in which case, you often find yourself catching L-R again in order to do another first move, instead of changing hands :blush: :wink:

Jhutch
17th-October-2006, 10:34 PM
Cheers Gojive/Budz/Iain!


I know it's easy to say don't let getting things wrong worry you, but it really is an ideal worth pursuing John. There isn't a dancer in this land, of any age and experience, that still doesn't make mistakes in nearly every dance they undertake (both leaders and followers). Do keep trying the new moves in freestyle - they are vital to progressing the learning curve of leading, and you get HUGE satisfaction when it all clicks into place, and you lead it perfectly on an unsuspecting woman/follower .



What i wrote does sound a bit more defeatist than i intended it to be. I know that i cant just do what works immediately but having done about 10 intermediate classes now, i have an idea of how far i can push things. For instance, i didnt try one of the intermediate moves last night but this was because i kept on banging my arm on my head and then stumbling forwards towards the woman. I think that one might be left until i have better co-ordination and balance rather than be left with a sore head and risk knocking people over!:D




I have scribbled notes from classes and weekenders, going back some 7 years....most of the time, I can't even read my own writing :eek: , but every now and then, a quick perusal of the notes makes me sit up and think "hey! I forgot I loved that move - must try it tonight!"


Noting down the moves that i like will come in useful so i will give it a try. Am sure i will forget some of them at some point:grin:

David Bailey
17th-October-2006, 10:35 PM
I think that telling a beginner class that the moves can be done in any order runs the risk of someone trying to do them in a different order in the class. Many beginners are in an overload state, and the lesson part of the lesson should be kept as simple and as repetitive as possible for them.
Well, hell, why teach them anything at all, if their tiny minds are overloaded with all this stuff? Why not just teach them merengue then? :rolleyes:

Seriously, I think it's important to stress that the routine is a demonstration - that the moves can be fitted in any order. The earlier beginners can be told at least that level of granularity, the better.

And then in the intermediate class, teachers could stress that the moves are demonstrations - that they too can be broken down into step-components, as required.

And then in the advanced class... Oh hold on, I was getting all carried away there for a second... :devil:

Jhutch
17th-October-2006, 10:38 PM
I do a lot of neckbreaks, both as lead and follow - I like them. I suppose some women that are not that comfortable getting close may not like the middle bit where they are wrapped in towards their partner - I felt a bit uncomfortable with this when I was relatively new and wasn't sure what was happening - I learnt neckbreaks simply from following during freestyle (once the signal had been explained to me!), not in a class, so didn't have a clue what was coming, and suddenly I'm almost nose to nose with a complete stranger ... and then I'd forgotten by the next time, so was taken by surprise again ... several times! I learnt eventually what was coming, and by then was getting more comfortable with the whole 'being closer' thing.

Cheers Frankie:)

Jhutch
17th-October-2006, 10:54 PM
I tend to agree. Most people in their first lesson are probably best off just learning the moves IMO and trying to match them to the music. When they go the second time they will learn other moves - these may all be new or have some repeated moves. If entirely new then they will probably be busy learning these new moves. However, if they come across new moves then it should then become clear to them that the different moves can be changed around.:)

Whoops:blush: Goof-up by me there, the last sentence should read

'However, if they come across repeated moves then it should become clear to them that the different moves can be changed around.'

FWIW I tried to mix stuff together after a few lessons (first lesson went straight out of my head:blush: ). Dont know if people told me to do this or not but i think i worked out for myself that they could be mixed around

Gojive
17th-October-2006, 10:56 PM
Cheers Gojive/Budz/Iain!


:eek: :wink:




What i wrote does sound a bit more defeatist than i intended it to be. I know that i cant just do what works immediately but having done about 10 intermediate classes now, i have an idea of how far i can push things. For instance, i didnt try one of the intermediate moves last night but this was because i kept on banging my arm on my head and then stumbling forwards towards the woman. I think that one might be left until i have better co-ordination and balance rather than be left with a sore head and risk knocking people over!:D

Heh! One thing I know you're not, from our other life, is defeatist :wink: . It certainly sounds to me, that you're moving in the right direction John. I reckon though, that once you've tasted one of those weekenders, you'll be throwing everything at everyone in intermediates :wink:



Noting down the moves that i like will come in useful so i will give it a try. Am sure i will forget some of them at some point:grin:

If you're like me, you'll forget 95% of them...but the 5% you do remember, will make it all worthwhile :waycool:

Gojive
17th-October-2006, 11:02 PM
Well, hell, why teach them anything at all, if their tiny minds are overloaded with all this stuff? Why not just teach them merengue then? :rolleyes:
No time for cooking, this is serious stuff now DJ! :na:




Seriously, I think it's important to stress that the routine is a demonstration - that the moves can be fitted in any order. The earlier beginners can be told at least that level of granularity, the better.

And then in the intermediate class, teachers could stress that the moves are demonstrations - that they too can be broken down into step-components, as required.



I agree - but I also see where BigD is coming from too. The trouble is I guess, is that the gulf between various members of a beginner's class can be that much wider than of those in inters and above (or sideways :wink: ). It's a case of striking a VERY FINE balance between "look, you can do this on week 1!!" and setting the foundations for progression upwards.

Hell, I'm not explaining this very well! :blush:

David Bailey
17th-October-2006, 11:16 PM
Surely that's not right? Correct me if I'm wrong (I've only been doing this since June and there are people with far more experience than me on here) but the whole point of say a shoulder slide or a man spin is to swap hands (starting left, ending right) along with a few others.
True - that's one of the main points of those moves (not the only one, but one of them). But a lot of the time you can just put a return in afterwards and swap back.

Re: ordering

I agree - but I also see where BigD is coming from too. The trouble is I guess, is that the gulf between various members of a beginner's class can be that much wider than of those in inters and above (or sideways :wink: ).
What, 0 - 6 weeks, compared with 6 weeks - 10+ years?


It's a case of striking a VERY FINE balance between "look, you can do this on week 1!!" and setting the foundations for progression upwards.

Hell, I'm not explaining this very well! :blush:
I know what you mean - maybe this could be something said in the taxi-dancer review class? I just want someone, vaguely teacher-like, to say it, at some point... :plaintive icon:

Gojive
17th-October-2006, 11:31 PM
I agree - but I also see where BigD is coming from too. The trouble is I guess, is that the gulf between various members of a beginner's class can be that much wider than of those in inters and above (or sideways ).



What, 0 - 6 weeks, compared with 6 weeks - 10+ years?

Well naturally the time span is way more for the inters etc, but the steepness of the learning curve is surely much greater at the lower end? That's what I'm getting at.

In a beginner's class, you're potentially teaching both those who've maybe never stepped foot on a dance floor in their lives, whilst at the same time pushing/developing those who are becoming quite competant/confident. How to please both?....



maybe this could be something said in the taxi-dancer review class? I just want someone, vaguely teacher-like, to say it, at some point... :plaintive icon:

Yes, I agree :)

Alice
17th-October-2006, 11:44 PM
I think that telling a beginner class that the moves can be done in any order runs the risk of someone trying to do them in a different order in the class. Many beginners are in an overload state, and the lesson part of the lesson should be kept as simple and as repetitive as possible for them.
I'm not sure I agree with you on this...

All you'd have to do is reassure them that the moves can be changed around in freestyle but for this class we're doing them in this order- XYZ. That lets them know that it's perfectly ok to do them as taught OR all mixed up:) Even if they're not up to mixing them around yet, they'll get the idea in their heads for later, and the beginner follows won't be as shocked to have them led in a different order in freestyle by more experienced leads.

:flower:

bigdjiver
18th-October-2006, 02:06 AM
Anybody that has watched me in a beginner class will testify that at some point my mind will wander and I will demonstrate that the moves can be done in a different order, that the other hand can be used to catch, that etc etc ...:blush: :confused: :tears: and that is after 1000+ beginners classes. (I helped out in a review class last week and was told by a first timer "Don't worry, you'll soon pick it up." (I was chatting, and didn't hear "from the top".)
I have seen so many beginners completely overwhelmed by such a new environment. I can trasmit the messages about the moves not having to be done in sequence instantly to a new lady by taking her on the floor and demonstrating that it is a male led dance and she does not have to worry that she has not "got" the moves immediately, but she has to learn to follow. The biggest problem I have found with beginner ladies is that they are trying to remember the moves as well as adapt to new people and a new environment.
I believe it is down to theproperly trained Taxi-dancers to fill in the gaps in their dance education for the men. They are dancing one-on-one and can assess how much information a new man is ready for. For many first timers I suspect that going through the class moves in robotic sequence is as much as they can cope with, and a good place to start.
The bottom line is that the system works.

Frankie_4711
18th-October-2006, 08:19 AM
I agree that it should be 'noted for future reference' preferably by the teacher, or by the Taxis, that the moves can be done in any order. I do find when dancing with Beginner leads in Freestyle that they will be going through the routine and suddenly either accidentally go into the wrong move or forget the next move completely and usually end up doing something approximating a Manspin or Shoulder Slide even if they haven't been taught it yet! I always reassure them that there is nothing wrong with this and if they are feeling adventurous enough and don't want to stick to the routine then that's fine, this is Freestyle after all and that's what it's all about - mixing it up a bit if they can, and that it's perfectly alright to do something different (might even show them how to execute the Man Spin/Shoulder Slide, or whatever they've nearly done, correctly)

If I am leading I will find out how long the lady has been dancing and do a quick assessment of her natural ability (is she one of those that stands on the spot and just sort of waggles her spaghetti arms, or is she actually attempting to dance?) and how scared she is. If she's been a few times and/or seems to be getting on OK I'll throw in a few new moves and mess with the routine order a bit just to get her used to it.

If she's trying to lead/anticipate I will firstly mention it to her and explain that she shouldn't in case that is not the move the lead is intending, and if she carries on I will deliberately change the move to demonstrate the point (call me evil, but these things have to be learnt somehow and I'm a great believer in learning from your mistakes!:devil: )

Nick M
19th-October-2006, 09:35 AM
When I'm dancing with a beginner I stick to the 4 moves in order, for their sake rather than mine, maybe I should think about doing something different?

In freestyle, for their sake, you should avoid sticking to the four moves in order. Change the order, miss one out, repeat one, whatever. They need to learn how to follow in freestyle, and helping them with this will be the greatest favour you can do for them.

bigdjiver
19th-October-2006, 05:07 PM
In freestyle, for their sake, you should avoid sticking to the four moves in order. Change the order, miss one out, repeat one, whatever. They need to learn how to follow in freestyle, and helping them with this will be the greatest favour you can do for them.The first timers say "I only know the four moves we did in class"
They get Hand Jive, Octopus and Basket walk-around. "You didn't know you knew those moves, did you?".
Then the explanation that it is a male led dance, and that they are not going to find it difficult, because the followed those moves perfectly, and one of them was not even a beginner move.
There is usually a transformation in attitude and confidence that is a wonder to behold, and one of the joys I get from MJ.

Frankie_4711
19th-October-2006, 05:27 PM
... They get Hand Jive, ...

:confused: :whistle: :devil::wink:

Jhutch
5th-December-2006, 01:43 AM
Hello there, still soldiering on:) Do other people find that their ability goes in waves? Some days i really feel like i am getting somewhere while other times i wonder what i am doing:sad: Reading part of ducasi's blog i see that he appeared to experience it some degree. A few weeks ago i went about five lessons in a row to different venues and didn't feel that i had picked up any moves at all (admittedly i was really quite tired during at least one lesson though - shame as the moves were the sort that you see other people doing and want to learn). After a disastrous Friday night freestyle session that made me wonder why i bothered turning up (:blush: ) i really felt down. However, then i went to Hammersmith after a week off and had a great time (didn't expect anything beforehand) and my workshop the next day went really well :clap: (IMO). My normal monday and wednesday sessions last week went well and i felt like i had picked up yet more moves:clap: i was beginning to feel like i was finally getting away from the 'havent i done this move at least 6 times during this dance already:confused: ' type feeling. Was looking forward to this evening although i did have a niggling feeling that things were about to go awry. and... didnt have a good time at all. Didn't pick up any moves from the class and felt that i had lost the ability to lead some of my more recent ones in the freestyle:sad: (although i did manage to lead the archispin i learnt in the workshop:really: ). Just generally felt unco-ordinated as well, my hands weren't able to do simple things like find other people' hands, narrowly averted several accidents (not sure if i was the one causing them in the first place but i always tend to assume that i did and that people think i am always bashing into other people. I have always liked to throw my hand out a bit theatrically when signalling a man spin and today someone else got hit :sad: :mad: Thing is though that it feels more natural throwing my hand out rather than just doing a small signal; maybe i should just do shoulder slides instead:sad: Having said all this, i am feeling quite tired at the moment and am getting over a minor cold, hopefully Wednesday will go better:)

TurboTomato
5th-December-2006, 10:30 AM
Sounds very familiar jhutch, I wouldn't worry about it. I have bad nights and good nights and am still frustrated by the lack of intermediate moves I can do. Sometimes I go along thinking I'm going to have a really good nights dancing and just can't get into it and other times, maybe I'm feeling a little tired, I go along expecting nothing and have a really good night.

Lee Bartholomew
5th-December-2006, 04:16 PM
Sounds very familiar jhutch, I wouldn't worry about it. I have bad nights and good nights and am still frustrated by the lack of intermediate moves I can do. Sometimes I go along thinking I'm going to have a really good nights dancing and just can't get into it and other times, maybe I'm feeling a little tired, I go along expecting nothing and have a really good night.

Think we all get like that at points and have nights like that.


I sometimes get to the stage where I find im doing the same moves over and over again and get bored with myself.

Wuzzle
5th-December-2006, 04:29 PM
Going to start crossing the divide tonight. Starting intermediate moves tonight.... should be fun maybe a little scary.

After reading here I think learning the one move i like the best and adding is a fairly safe way to go :grin:

Lets hope i can make the jump the and land safely without feeling to much like an ant. :sick: (on a side note I worked out how much it costs to go three times a week per year, think its time to ask the boss for a pay rise :whistle:)

Jhutch
5th-December-2006, 04:45 PM
Going to start crossing the divide tonight. Starting intermediate moves tonight.... should be fun maybe a little scary.

After reading here I think learning the one move i like the best and adding is a fairly safe way to go :grin:

Lets hope i can make the jump the and land safely without feeling to much like an ant.

Cool!

I found that the divide between the classes was quite large at first:really: Seemed to be so much more to take in. After all, when you have done a few beginner classes you find that you are repeating some moves so you don't have quite as much to learn. I found that it was best to treat the first couple as a learning experience and not expect to be able to do any of them afterwards. If you can then it is a bonus:grin: After a while you will probably find that some moves are similar to other ones you have done or are relatively easy, ie a slightly different variation on a beginners move

Lost Leader
5th-December-2006, 10:04 PM
This is such a useful thread.

There is little doubt in my mind that making the transition to intermediate classes is one of the two most difficult problems faced by any relative newcomer (the other being getting past the second night). I made the transition nearly a year ago and I certainly had my share of problems. For what it is worth here is the best advice I can give on the basis of my experience (I am looking at things mainly from a leaders perspective) - and I make no apology for repeating some of the excellent advice given by previous posters:

1. Do not be tempted to make the transition too early. It is difficult to generalise as to how long you need to spend in the beginer class but I will try; assuming you are someone who has had no previous partner dance experience then I would say that leaders need to spend 8 to 12 weeks doing the beginner and refresher classes. Followers can move up to intermediate level a little sooner, perhaps after around 6 to 8 weeks.

2. Make sure that you really know all the beinner moves first - it sounds obvious but I mean really know them, not just the bare bones of the moves but a lot of the more subtle points as well. There's more to some of those moves than you might at first think. Once you do move up to intermediate still keep doing the beginner class as well.

3. Do the refresher classes - if your venue has a good one it can help very much with point 2 above. If you are fortunate to have more than one venue nearby then try the refresher class at each and try goinmg to the one that is the best as the standard does vary quite a bit from what I have heard.

4. Ask a Taxi dancer if they think you are ready to move to intermediate, in fact ask the opinion of more than one.

5. Do not approach intermediate classes with the belief that you will be able to learn the whole routine - you almost certainly wont be able to do this, especially to begin with. I think a healthy attitude to adopt is that if you are able to take just one or two moves from a class and gradually start to introduce them into your free-styling then that claass can be counted as very successful. After almost a year of intermediate classes I can still only very rarely execute all four moves even moderately successfully by the end of the class but I now generally do not let that worry me as much as I did to begin with. After all you only have half an hour to learn four sometimes quite complicated moves, only one or two of which you might have done before.

6. Most intermediate classes consist of four moves. One is a variation of one of the beginner moves so these are often the easiest to pick up on (and often the most useful for free-styling) Next there is usually one of the 18 or so core intermediate moves, such are the Pretzel, Accordian, Duck Comb etc.). These are quite important but there will probably be some that you find quite difficult. Then there are another two moves which can be any of the 600 or so other MJ moves and may include footwork, dips and so on. Given the vast number of possible moves there will inevitably be some you simply find difficult, other which don't suit your style of dancing, some that are hard to lead and others which you don't personally like for some other reason. Not being able, or simply not wanting, to do such moves is fine. Think of these moves purely as optional - all that is happening is that the teacher is showing you the move and thus ging you an opportunity to try it and decide if it is one that you potentially might like. There is absolutely no shame in deciding you do not like a particular move - there are after all over 600 to choose from and you will only ever use a small fraction of that number in freestyling.

7. You may find it helpful to try doing the intermediate classes with a fixed partner for a while instead of rotating partners round the class. This is especially true if you would otherwise end up sitting out parts of the lesson because of uneven numbers. Doing the class with a fixed partner gives you more time to learn the moves and can also help get over some of the potential problems of embarrassment and intimidation youi might feel when you "mess things up" when partnering some of the more experienced dancers in the class. There is a vast range of experience in an intermediate class - you might only have been doing MJ for a few weeks but quite a few of the dancers there will have been doing it for several years. Once you become more confident you can always go back to rotating in the class. I know that dancing with fixed partners in class may be seen as contrary to the Ceroc ethos but it works for me in that I found I could get more out of the intermediate classes once I stopped rotating, though I would not necessarily advocate this as a long term strategy and obviously not everyone is necessarily able to find a fixed partner.

8. If you are really having difficulty with a particular class do not be afraid to duck out of it and take a break - it will give you a chance to cool down and save your energy for the second period of free style. This can be easier to do if doing the class with a fixed partner.

9. Doing a "beginner improver" workshop can be helpful just before you move into intermediate classes - it will help to refine your technique on the beginner moves and introduce a few of the simpler intermediate moves to give you a head start.

10. If you are really having problems with a particular move which you want to get ironed out try asking for advice from the teacher or one of the taxi dancers, or why not ask one of the more experienced dancers to help you - most will be very flattered to be asked for advice.

Wuzzle
5th-December-2006, 11:48 PM
Well i jumped in with both feet :grin: was great fun. Couldnt tell you all the names of the moves like. However it was slyck. Cant wait to do more tomorrow :D

Problem what do you do if you like most of the moves.. hard to just pick one. Didnt freestyle much afterwards tho :blush:

Whats the bets that all knowledge learnt will be out of mind by the mornin :yum:

Lynn
6th-December-2006, 12:52 AM
Hello there, still soldiering on:) Do other people find that their ability goes in waves? Yep. That's normal. For everyone. (I'm a follower and a fairly beginner lead, haven't had the chance to try the intermediate class as a lead yet).

But I noticed a pattern in your frustration...

didn't feel that i had picked up any moves at all
i felt like i had picked up yet more moves
Didn't pick up any moves from the class One suggestion might be that for a few weeks don't worry about learning any new moves. Dancing is about more than moves, so you can still be learning a lot without focusing on moves. That gives you a different approach to classes and freestyle and means you can concentrate on things like leading technique, styling, fitting the moves to the music etc. (I'm trying to do this in beginners classes as lead.)

SteveK
6th-December-2006, 05:39 AM
Snipped...7. You may find it helpful to try doing the intermediate classes with a fixed partner for a while instead of rotating partners round the class. .......... I know that dancing with fixed partners in class may be seen as contrary to the Ceroc ethos but it works for me in that I found I could get more out of the intermediate classes once I stopped rotating, though I would not necessarily advocate this as a long term strategy and obviously not everyone is necessarily able to find a fixed partner.


9. Doing a "beginner improver" workshop can be helpful just before you move into intermediate classes - it will help to refine your technique on the beginner moves and introduce a few of the simpler intermediate moves to give you a head start.

Sorry - have to disagree a bit with the comment about not rotating. The whole point of leading isn't just being able to do your moves; it's working in tandem with your partner to where both of you might like to go next. It's easier to learn this if you dance with a larger number of followers?

Unless your partner is really experienced, I reckon you are better off staying in the rotation. Some followers will help you how to do the moves, and then you can practise this on others who aren't so experienced. Isn't this approach also a tad selfish (although you do acknowledge this).

I agree with the comment about workshops being though.

The thing to remember is that you don't need to remember that many moves; wouldn't all the followers agree that a reduced variety of simpler moves done well (with plenty of eye contact and a nice smile) is much better than loads of flashy complicated moves?

Jhutch
6th-December-2006, 03:01 PM
But I noticed a pattern in your frustration...

One suggestion might be that for a few weeks don't worry about learning any new moves. Dancing is about more than moves, so you can still be learning a lot without focusing on moves. That gives you a different approach to classes and freestyle and means you can concentrate on things like leading technique, styling, fitting the moves to the music etc. (I'm trying to do this in beginners classes as lead.)


Hi there:) Am aware that there is a lot more to dancing than simply how many moves you can or cannot do:) I do try and improve the things you state as well although i think that my hitting of the breaks has gone down recently. However, i was previously finding myself thinking more about hitting the breaks almost to the exclusion of everything else at one point. I would finish thinking 'that went well' but would have very little idea whether i was leading moves well or whether my partner was enjoying it:blush: I also got some strange looks as i tended to do sound-effects for the drums (poo-tish) (stopped doing that after replicating it in a mirror!)

Anyway, i think someone mentioned it somewhere (but i cant find it:confused: ) that one of the problems is that you get bored of doing the same moves over and over again. Spending a couple of hours doing the same limited number of moves gets quite dull after a while. Being able to do a new move is also good if it is a move you like doing and can also be a landmark that can help you feel that you are getting somewhere (although i know that there is more to Ceroc than that - please dont all shout at me:) )

TurboTomato
6th-December-2006, 03:22 PM
I also got some strange looks as i tended to do sound-effects for the drums (poo-tish)

:rofl:

LMC
6th-December-2006, 11:21 PM
Anyway, i think someone mentioned it somewhere (but i cant find it:confused: ) that one of the problems is that you get bored of doing the same moves over and over again. Spending a couple of hours doing the same limited number of moves gets quite dull after a while. Being able to do a new move is also good if it is a move you like doing and can also be a landmark that can help you feel that you are getting somewhere (although i know that there is more to Ceroc than that - please dont all shout at me:) )
As has been said many times before, don't worry about boring us followers - we get different moves from different leads. But regarding your boredom with yourself with limited moves - as a new intermediate lead myself, I feel your pain - "oh s***, I'm leading ANOTHER yo yo"...

but it really really really is truly true that a lower variety of moves led WELL makes for a far nicer dance for the follower than a string of all-different moves led badly. One outstanding dance for me was with a first time guy who could only remember the yo yo. So that was what he led. For an entire track. Beautifully too :rofl: - and he's still lovely to dance with as an intermediate.

Lynn's made an excellent point here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=314925#post314925):


I noticed last night a difference as a lead - I'm no longer thinking about 'how do I lead this move' but I'm thinking 'how do I lead this lady'.
to which I could really relate, as I realised that fairly recently too! It really adds interest to a limited number of moves if you add in the thinking about adjusting to different followers with the same moves :nice:

Thinking about how you can adapt your style to the music a bit more also adds interest - e.g. something with a really strong beat suits armjives; something smoother suits flowing moves like the Octopus, hitting breaks, etc.

As a taxi for several months, I learned to lead all the beginners' moves quite well. And found that there were some, that for some reason, I never really used - dunno why, just didn't! So thinking over that can help too :) You can adapt some of the moves to give you more thinking time too, which might also stand you in good stead for learning intermediate moves - try a basket with a couple of walk steps forward before you turn the lady out. Put an extra 'octopus' or armjive in - taught as 3, you can usually get away with 4 or 5 - probably no more than that (!) if you need some thinking space. Try an armjive swizzle, then reverse the swizzle the other way (careful if your follower has stiff shoulders as this is a bit unexpected) - etc: sure you can think of other variations.

TurboTomato
7th-December-2006, 02:15 AM
Had a bit of a special intermediate class tonight as it was the last one before our venue closes for Christmas. Yep, we did Triple Trouble!! :D I was terrible, but what a hoot!!! :rofl:

Good on you steve for putting it into the lesson :respect: I was terrified at first but had a lot of fun.

SeriouslyAddicted
7th-December-2006, 09:39 AM
Had a bit of a special intermediate class tonight as it was the last one before our venue closes for Christmas. Yep, we did Triple Trouble!! :D I was terrible, but what a hoot!!! :rofl:

Good on you steve for putting it into the lesson :respect: I was terrified at first but had a lot of fun.

Gutted I missed it - sounds like a blast - perhaps you can give me a re-run on Saturday!

StokeBloke
7th-December-2006, 11:12 AM
Seriously considering my first Intermediate class this coming Monday or Tuesday. Maybe see how the beginner class goes on Monday and if all is well stay on for the intermediate. I mean what's the worst that could happen? I get it wrong and look like a prat... so nothing new there then :o

Gav
7th-December-2006, 11:43 AM
Seriously considering my first Intermediate class this coming Monday or Tuesday. Maybe see how the beginner class goes on Monday and if all is well stay on for the intermediate. I mean what's the worst that could happen? I get it wrong and look like a prat... so nothing new there then :o

Relax, when I first did it I was tense and nervous for a couple of months. Always got the moves in the end but sometimes it took me a few rotations and I used to beat myself up about it.

One week, I'd been getting annoyed with myself and a friend pulled me out of the line near the end of the lesson and made me watch. It was only then that I understood. 80% of the class hadn't got the moves quite right and the lesson was nearly over, and there I was kicking myself because I didn't get them first time around!

Genie
7th-December-2006, 01:29 PM
Yes. There were a couple of men coming through to intermediate at one of my classes. One of them is a lovely man who tries so very hard. He's a good lead, doesn't grip and I enjoy dancing with him. But in his first intermediate class, when I got to him, he was really worried he wasn't quite getting one of the moves right. I had to point to a few other leads that he admires at the point and say "they just made a mess of it too." Which was actually true :-)

TurboTomato
7th-December-2006, 05:36 PM
Gutted I missed it - sounds like a blast - perhaps you can give me a re-run on Saturday!

Not coming on saturday, doh! :na:

But if you and emma and someone else are up for it I'll do it next week :D

Wuzzle
7th-December-2006, 06:32 PM
Well 3rd times a charm. I guess... The first attempt i had great fun. Last night was a bit more ify... could follow it to a point but still was a little bit ropey.. Infact i did think about giving up and watching at one point :blush:

Some moves look harder than they are and then there was the footwork :eek: triple step....

Lisa
7th-December-2006, 07:33 PM
Wuzzle- your dancing in 6? weeks is really really good so keep going!!

Moves from my Tues class: Basket Pivot, Octospin, Open Turn Hip into DH Sway & anti clockwise cleaver (glad you had fun)
Wed:First move triple steps, wraparound, wurlitzer turn, sway

Will continue to do one or two of the beginners plus moves each class from the wkshop you did so hope that helps. I know you liked the manhattan so next week that's for you.

Lisa x

PS i thought your triple steps were pretty good.:hug: They can be hard to learn but gr8 to use for those faster tracks. As always- I'm happy to go through anymove with anyone

Wuzzle
7th-December-2006, 08:02 PM
Wuzzle- your dancing in 6? weeks is really really good so keep going!!

Moves from my Tues class: Basket Pivot, Octospin, Open Turn Hip into DH Sway & anti clockwise cleaver (glad you had fun)
Wed:First move triple steps, wraparound, wurlitzer turn, sway

Will continue to do one or two of the beginners plus moves each class from the wkshop you did so hope that helps. I know you liked the manhattan so next week that's for you.

Lisa x

PS i thought your triple steps were pretty good.:hug: They can be hard to learn but gr8 to use for those faster tracks. As always- I'm happy to go through anymove with anyone

Yeah well beginner moves thankfully get repeated lots so twice a week I think got me yoyos in my sleep. :rofl:

Plus there is an excellent taxi service and teacher :flower:

Still feel like an ant among giants when you see some of the moves couples can pull off. But hey willing to learn after all thats the fun.. eeep :eek: time to gooooooooo........

StokeBloke
12th-December-2006, 10:28 AM
Seriously considering my first Intermediate class this coming Monday or Tuesday. Maybe see how the beginner class goes on Monday and if all is well stay on for the intermediate. I mean what's the worst that could happen? I get it wrong and look like a prat... so nothing new there then :o
UPDATE:
Well I bit the bullet and did my very first intermediate class last night. OK, I know what they say about tempting fate, but it was a breeze! I got all three moves committed to memory straight off, and in the following freestyle I danced the routine a little till I got bored, then spent the evening tossing the odd intermediate move into the mix like a good'n! :D

We did a side by side/back pass type thingy/dip/sideways lean - pretzel r/h catch - yo-yo variation without the spin straight into a comb with the guy spinning out... sorry about the description/names.

I actually found the intermediate moves we did easier than I thought they would be - I know I'm setting myself up here for a huge fall! Hehehe. In freestyle they worked far better as they seem much longer and this gives you bags more thinking time.

I went in with the sole aim of having fun, not falling over, but not coming away with any moves at all for the first class - I ended up with three! Chuffed! You betcha!!! I even got to freestyle with Kick Ass Katie (I think). Great night, can't wait for Stafford tonight. If you're going to be there watch out for the guy with the big grin who can pretzel ;)

I love dancing :clap:

rubyred
12th-December-2006, 10:36 AM
I love dancing :clap:
And that's what its all about!

Congratulations :cheers: I look forward to my pretzel with you whenever I am in Stoke or you are up North.

fletch
12th-December-2006, 10:48 AM
UPDATE:


I even got to freestyle with Kick Ass Katie (I think). Great night, can't wait for Stafford tonight.

I love dancing :clap:


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

good for you

so! does this mean you might venture out ? there are a few of us going to Stockport on Staurday I will be leaving from Stafford, I could get you on the way :hug:


:cheers:

TurboTomato
12th-December-2006, 11:01 AM
UPDATE:
Well I bit the bullet and did my very first intermediate class last night. OK, I know what they say about tempting fate, but it was a breeze! I got all three moves committed to memory straight off, and in the following freestyle I danced the routine a little till I got bored, then spent the evening tossing the odd intermediate move into the mix like a good'n! :D

We did a side by side/back pass type thingy/dip/sideways lean - pretzel r/h catch - yo-yo variation without the spin straight into a comb with the guy spinning out... sorry about the description/names.

I actually found the intermediate moves we did easier than I thought they would be - I know I'm setting myself up here for a huge fall! Hehehe. In freestyle they worked far better as they seem much longer and this gives you bags more thinking time.

I went in with the sole aim of having fun, not falling over, but not coming away with any moves at all for the first class - I ended up with three! Chuffed! You betcha!!! I even got to freestyle with Kick Ass Katie (I think). Great night, can't wait for Stafford tonight. If you're going to be there watch out for the guy with the big grin who can pretzel ;)

I love dancing :clap:

Bloody well done chap :clap: That's a lot better that I did in my first inter class - you must be a natural :D

Lee Bartholomew
12th-December-2006, 01:09 PM
I was quite lucky / unlucky in the fact that when I started MJ, my local class didn't have a beginners lesson.

I went back to the class this week and their intermediate lessons were as challenging as a beginners lesson elsewhere.

I guess how hard the intermediate moves are, depends on the teacher/class

StokeBloke
13th-December-2006, 01:33 AM
My second intermediate class tonight (this time in Stafford). Yessss! It was great fun. I didn't get it all like last night, but I had a blast! I even got to try out one of my new intermediate move during the freestyle. As well as the last three moves I got from last night... that's four longer moves that I can link up with a few beginner moves and before you know it... you're dancing. Ohhh and I kept up the eye contact too and it makes an unbelievable difference. In just eight weeks, Mike has turned me from a stumbling klutz into someone who can ask a lady for a dance and wing it through a whole track with a little bit of rhythm and style :)

If you haven't been to Stoke or Stafford you are missing out. The Stoke venue is brilliant, and the Stafford venue is so friendly it's untrue. Honestly... show up to Stoke on a Monday, or Stafford on a Tuesday and I promise I'll dance with you... now if that doesn't put you off nothing will :wink:

I love dancing (still) :clap: :clap: :clap:

Lee Bartholomew
13th-December-2006, 08:04 AM
Assume that offer goes to the ladies only. lol

Glad you are enjoying it. It does become an addiction. I was reluctant to go dancing when I first got dragged, kicking and screaming by my then girlfriend, but I enjoyed it so much, I now teach.

Gav
13th-December-2006, 09:36 AM
Sounds like there really is no hope for you now! :D
Well done on progressing quickly, seems like you're doing the right thing. When I first moved up I used to kick myself for not remembering all of the intermediate moves, then I realised that I only really needed to pick 1 or 2 moves that I like to remember. Why waste effort remembering moves that I don't really like doing?
Keep up the good work. :respect:

Wuzzle
13th-December-2006, 12:37 PM
Sounds like there really is no hope for you now! :D
Well done on progressing quickly, seems like you're doing the right thing. When I first moved up I used to kick myself for not remembering all of the intermediate moves, then I realised that I only really needed to pick 1 or 2 moves that I like to remember. Why waste effort remembering moves that I don't really like doing?
Keep up the good work. :respect:

Well i think am developing a slight problem with having intermediate moves.. been for 4 times now at intermediate level. I haven't found a move so far that i really dont like. Think i am trying to remember to much perhaps. If i went with take one move i like i'd be stuck with choosing..... perhaps the easy moves are quicker to remember but if your talking about moves you enjoy... might be in trouble... though i gone three times last week possibly three times this week.. will slow down once my work hours go back to normal....

This keeps up my brains just going to turn into fizz. :yum: Some are more more fun than others but i find myself thinking what i havent in a while.

Brain at the moment likes the First move something or other. Course not to forget how many yoyo variations there are now....

Would be interesting to know what followers like while learning the intermediate moves. At least we can think oh dont like that move... do they have much choice? Less they hijack the move your doing :whistle:

Oh yeah might need treatment for this addiction.... :rofl:

Gav
13th-December-2006, 12:42 PM
Well i think am developing a slight problem with having intermediate moves.. been for 4 times now at intermediate level. I haven't found a move so far that i really dont like. Think i am trying to remember to much perhaps. If i went with take one move i like i'd be stuck with choosing..... perhaps the easy moves are quicker to remember but if your talking about moves you enjoy... might be in trouble... though i gone three times last week possibly three times this week.. will slow down once my work hours go back to normal....

This keeps up my brains just going to turn into fizz. :yum: Some are more more fun than others but i find myself thinking what i havent in a while.

Brain at the moment likes the First move something or other. Course not to forget how many yoyo variations there are now....

Would be interesting to know what followers like while learning the intermediate moves. At least we can think oh dont like that move... do they have much choice? Less they hijack the move your doing :whistle:

Oh yeah might need treatment for this addiction.... :rofl:

Don't be silly, there's no treatment or cure, you just have to live with it.

Same goes for StokeBloke too, if you like & can remember all the moves go for it! I just found it easier to pick a move or two and work on them 'til I had them totally sussed, then work on one or two more.
It does mean that my repertoire of moves is slightly limited, but I'm quite proud that I do them all fairly well.

SteveK
14th-December-2006, 01:40 AM
Would be interesting to know what followers like while learning the intermediate moves. At least we can think oh dont like that move... do they have much choice? Less they hijack the move your doing :whistle:

Oh yeah might need treatment for this addiction.... :rofl:

You could ask followers which moves they like - the only problem is that different followers will like different moves :grin:
If you can lead it well, and they can follow it easily, you can be 100% sure that some followers will like it some of the time....

Treatment for the addiction is easy - a prescription of more dancing!!

Wuzzle
14th-December-2006, 10:35 AM
Treatment for the addiction is easy - a prescription of more dancing!!

Unfortunately i've thought of that already.. this will be my second week going to all three... :rofl: That might change depending on where i can fit playing pool though. Who knows my bank balance once i come off my overtime might be tone my addiction down... might... maybe... nah... :whistle:

Is there such a thing as having to much fun? :clap: :clap:

SeriouslyAddicted
14th-December-2006, 10:33 PM
Is there such a thing as having to much fun? :clap: :clap:

Never!! :clap: :clap:

Lee Bartholomew
14th-December-2006, 10:34 PM
Always best to have fun till you can't walk

Wuzzle
15th-December-2006, 01:07 AM
Always best to have fun till you can't walk

:yeah: Gonna be feeling my legs tomorrow.... think they are numb at the moment... what can i say about tonights moves.. well two words....

SLYCK MOVES..... :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap:

Does anyone else find it hard to sleep after a good night of Ceroc?

bigdjiver
15th-December-2006, 07:49 AM
... Does anyone else find it hard to sleep after a good night of Ceroc?There is a reason so many of my posts are at 3 a.m., and I am seldom alone.

Genie
21st-December-2006, 02:48 AM
Does anyone else find it hard to sleep after a good night of Ceroc?

Actually I find a good (and enthusiastic) night's Ceroc helps me sleep better. By the time I have listened to a few Amici Forever tracks and drank my hot chocolate my mind has joined my body in a need for sleep. Which is saying something, for an insomniac :)