PDA

View Full Version : The one most important factor in teaching?



David Bailey
28th-September-2006, 12:09 PM
OK, I realize this has been covered before (for example, in the “Assessing teachers’ levels (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5218)” and the “Mark of a good teacher? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5332)” threads), but I’d like slightly rephrase the question, with better conditions, and put in a nice poll because obviously we haven’t had many of those lately :rolleyes:

So, in a standard Ceroc / MJ weekly class environment, for the duration of the class only, what do you think is the most important factor for a teacher?

El Salsero Gringo
28th-September-2006, 12:15 PM
OK, I realize this has been covered before (for example, in the “Assessing teachers’ levels (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5218)” and the “Mark of a good teacher? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5332)” threads), but I’d like slightly rephrase the question, with better conditions, and put in a nice poll because obviously we haven’t had many of those lately :rolleyes:

So, in a standard Ceroc / MJ weekly class environment, for the duration of the class only, what do you think is the most important factor for a teacher?The most important attribute for a teacher is whatever it takes to get people to come back again the next week. I suspect different (successful) teachers have different ways of achieving this, so I don't think you could narrow it down to one attribute common amongst them all.

Juju
28th-September-2006, 12:19 PM
I don't actually do many lessons at all these days, but I can't resist a poll.... :wink:

I went for adaptability/interactivity, partly because it effectively covers a lot of bases, like crowd control and communication, and partly because I'll always learn better from someone who I feel is communicating with me.

WittyBird
28th-September-2006, 12:19 PM
Not another poll, aint you people got anything better to do? :whistle:

Lynn
28th-September-2006, 12:28 PM
I think its hard to narrow it down to one thing, and agree with ESG that different teachers have different natural strengths.

Since there are a wide range of different learners I'm not sure one 'important factor' would work anyway.

From the revision class point of view (which I know is different) the one thing I go for is helping the beginners feel they have achieved something - that requires adaptability most I guess as each beginners 'achievement' may be different and each week is often very different too in terms of how the revision material is covered.

Dizzy
28th-September-2006, 12:43 PM
As just said, I think that every teacher should use what they know works best and I think that a good teacher will be able to adapt their teaching to whatever crowd they have, be it beginners or advanced.

I also feel that teachers need to have that enthiasm on stage for the dance that they are teaching - popular teachers are able to put across that energy and enthusiasm whereas the not so popular teachers tend to just talk on stage and nothing else.

David Bailey
28th-September-2006, 12:50 PM
The most important attribute for a teacher is whatever it takes to get people to come back again the next week.
From a business point-of-view, yes.
From a "good teacher" point of view, I dunno.


I think its hard to narrow it down to one thing,
Hey, if you want easy, go sit in the Beginner's Corner :na:

Seriously, the reason I only allowed 1 choice was specifically to make people, err, choose the one factor that was most important.

So:

I also feel... .
Cheat!

El Salsero Gringo
28th-September-2006, 12:53 PM
From a business point-of-view, yes.
From a "good teacher" point of view, I dunno. No, I think from all points of view. The easiest way not to learn how to dance is never to go to a class. If you can't get people to come back for more lessons then it's totally impossible to teach them. Everything else can be fixed.

bigdjiver
28th-September-2006, 12:55 PM
...So, in a standard Ceroc / MJ weekly class environment, for the duration of the class only, what do you think is the most important factor for a teacher?Teaching is not about force-feeding information. If people want to learn they will find a way. The first job of a teacher can leave their pupils wanting more, whilst not delivering harmful information.


...for the duration of the class...:mad: its 30 or 45 minutes, ending on time.:mad:

David Bailey
28th-September-2006, 12:56 PM
No, I think from all points of view. The easiest way not to learn how to dance is never to go to a class. If you can't get people to come back for more lessons then it's totally impossible to teach them. Everything else can be fixed.
Technically, that's possibly covered under "charisma". Go on, vote, I know you want to...

But, you could get a "charismatic" teacher who pulls in the crowds, but doesn't actually teach you to dance very well - in other words, people return for the atmosphere, but don't improve.

Lynn
28th-September-2006, 12:58 PM
Seriously, the reason I only allowed 1 choice was specifically to make people, err, choose the one factor that was most important. OK, OK. I'll go for adaptability then for a really good teacher. No matter how well prepared you are with a good lesson plan, the right attitude etc, if you don't adapt your teaching to match your class then you will limit the learning that happens. (The most obvious way is speed of teaching a move and how often you go over a move. If the class are struggling you take your time, add in useful tips, reassure them etc.)

You could say good attitude is almost as important really (as Dizzy pointed out). If the teacher is having fun and is movtivated the class will be. If the teacher looks bored, fed up and doesn't want to be there...

But you can have a wonderful attitude and still be a poor teacher so I think to be a good teacher, then teaching in whatever way best suits the learning style of the majority of your class is a top factor.

Gadget
28th-September-2006, 12:59 PM
Comminication - if you can't communicate your ideas, then you can't teach. Having a raport, moving folk round, and all the other options are all aids to communication.

ducasi
28th-September-2006, 01:03 PM
The most important attribute for a teacher is whatever it takes to get people to come back again the next week. Our primary schools have teachers that their pupils keep coming back to. I guess they must all be great teachers.

Or perhaps the single most important factor for a teacher is the ability to teach.

Tessalicious
28th-September-2006, 01:06 PM
Comminication - if you can't communicate your ideas, then you can't teach. Having a raport, moving folk round, and all the other options are all aids to communication.That's true, and I might have voted for that, if that had been an option. But 'Good communication of the moves' is a completely different thing from 'Good communication' as DJ well knows.

And, although communication of the moves is a useful thing, it on it's own (as opposed to general skill at communication of all other aspects) is not as imperative as, particularly, the interactivity part of 'Adaptability/interactivity'. Either in getting people to keep coming to classes, or in getting those people to be better dancers as a result.


Our primary schools have teachers that their pupils keep coming back to. I guess they must all be great teachers.Oooh Dunc, not like you to be facetious :na: .

bigdjiver
28th-September-2006, 02:21 PM
Our primary schools have teachers that their pupils keep coming back to. I guess they must all be great teachers.

Or perhaps the single most important factor for a teacher is the ability to teach. My wife is a teacher. Her primary intake at one school included the local traveller camp. If the kids did not want to come to school, they did not come to school. She now teaches at a special school. If the pupils do not want to pay attention ....

I hated the teacher I had for English Literature. Years later I found his recommended reading list, and felt cheated because he had put me off reading so many great books. If I had tried Ballroom and Salsa at the places I tried those dances before trying jive I might not be dancing now.

People have to enjoy coming. The teacher is only one source of tuition, though obviously the most important.

El Salsero Gringo
28th-September-2006, 02:24 PM
But, you could get a "charismatic" teacher who pulls in the crowds, but doesn't actually teach you to dance very well - in other words, people return for the atmosphere, but don't improve.Well of course you could. But you are the person insisting on *one* attribute - don't blame me if one attribte alone isn't enough.
Our primary schools have teachers that their pupils keep coming back to. I guess they must all be great teachers.:confused: I think that's quite the stupidest thing you've ever written.

Primary school attendance is compulsory by law; unfortunately for Ceroc, attending dance lessons isn't. So keeping the pupil coming back to learn more is the first, hardest, and most important hurdle.

David Bailey
28th-September-2006, 03:01 PM
Well of course you could. But you are the person insisting on *one* attribute - don't blame me if one attribte alone isn't enough.
I'm just saying, it may not always be the most desirable feature. You know, trying to keep the debate alive, that sort of thing...

In other words, I don't think "popular" is necessarily the same as "good". Where, for me, "good" is defined as "teaches me something new".

A big crowd of regular dancers may be good, but not if they're only coming for the entertainment and social aspects.

TheTramp
28th-September-2006, 03:04 PM
In other words, I don't think "popular" is necessarily the same as "good". Where, for me, "good" is defined as "teaches me something new".

Isn't that rather too much a personal opinion? So, if you've been dancing for years, and go to a class, where the teacher teaches you some stuff that you know, by definition, that teacher isn't good. Even if the class is perfect for everyone else in it?

Just because a teacher doesn't teach you something new, surely you can appreciate the skills that he or she might have, and still rank them as being a good teacher?

ducasi
28th-September-2006, 03:16 PM
:confused: I think that's quite the stupidest thing you've ever written.

Primary school attendance is compulsory by law; unfortunately for Ceroc, attending dance lessons isn't. So keeping the pupil coming back to learn more is the first, hardest, and most important hurdle.
Thank you. :flower:

My point is that generally "keeping people coming" is not the best measure of whether a teacher is good or not.

Anyway, I think you're confusing cause and effect. Being a good teacher (cause) may keep folks coming back (effect).

But lots of other things may keep folks coming back. What if the teacher (or their regular demo) is hot? That might get people coming back – doesn't make them a good teacher. :)

Dreadful Scathe
28th-September-2006, 03:16 PM
OK, I realize this has been covered before (for example, in the “Assessing teachers’ levels (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5218)” and the “Mark of a good teacher? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5332)” threads), but I’d like slightly rephrase the question, with better conditions, and put in a nice poll because obviously we haven’t had many of those lately :rolleyes:

So, in a standard Ceroc / MJ weekly class environment, for the duration of the class only, what do you think is the most important factor for a teacher?
um...ability to teach ?

i.e. They do some stuff on the stage and the majority learn from it.

I'm sorry was this some sort of rocket science that i was unaware of? :)

MartinHarper
28th-September-2006, 03:19 PM
The sole characteristic of a good dance teacher is their ability to make their non-dancers into dancers, and their dancers into better dancers.

Warwick
28th-September-2006, 03:24 PM
Primary school attendance is compulsory by law.

No it isn't or Home Education wouldn't be possible. See http://www.education-otherwise.org

David Bailey
28th-September-2006, 03:29 PM
Isn't that rather too much a personal opinion?
Of course - which is why I said "for me" :)

I just don't want to see a "This is the only possible answer" non-debate.


Just because a teacher doesn't teach you something new, surely you can appreciate the skills that he or she might have, and still rank them as being a good teacher?
Indeed. Have you voted then?

TheTramp
28th-September-2006, 03:31 PM
Indeed. Have you voted then?

Yes. But you could have seen that, since it was you who made the poll a public one... :flower:

Dreadful Scathe
28th-September-2006, 03:31 PM
No it isn't or Home Education wouldn't be possible. See http://www.education-otherwise.org
er..im sure ESG is aware of that and he could have said "Education is complusory by law" if he held such a low opinion of other forumites that he'd expect such a pedantic response ;) ESG - you fool , lower your standards this instant :)

Tessalicious
28th-September-2006, 03:31 PM
I just don't want to see a "This is the only possible answer" non-debate.In that case, maybe the thread title should have been 'The most important factor in teaching to appeal to you individually, without implication that you want anyone to agree with you?'

TheTramp
28th-September-2006, 03:33 PM
In that case, maybe the thread title should have been 'The most important factor in teaching to appeal to you individually, without implication that you want anyone to agree with you?'

:rofl:

I'd have repped you for that. But I repped you too recently.

Can someone else please say something that I think is worth repping, so that I can rep Tess again please* :flower:






*Should this have been in another thread somewhere? :rolleyes:

tsh
28th-September-2006, 03:34 PM
I think the most important thing for me is attention to detail. All the other points help, but the one thing for me diferentiates between someone who is organising a social occasion, and someone who is teaching is that they have something to teach. If they can see something that people can change to make their dancing easier, and communicate it in a clear way, this is something that makes them a good teacher in the context that it interests me.

Anything that improves their ability to get punters through the door is really of very limited interest to me. If they're rude or offensive, then that matters, but having some good jokes doesn't make up for having nothing useful to teach!

I've just started a beginners boogie class here in France, and we've already (after 2 classes) touched on listening to the music, connection, not anticipating, lead or follow using breaks, spinning technique, bouncy hands - and I think we've learnt about 5 moves. It's not the same environment as a ceroc class, as there is no freestyle after the class - but i'm not convinced that this makes much of a difference.

Sean

Dreadful Scathe
28th-September-2006, 03:37 PM
Can someone else please say something that I think is worth repping, so that I can rep Tess again please* :flower:

You are a handsome talanted genius of a man.

That do ? hmmm...too unrealistic ? :)

TheTramp
28th-September-2006, 03:38 PM
You are a handsome talanted genius of a man.

That do ? hmmm...too unrealistic ? :)

You're so right. It doesn't have to be positive rep! :flower:

MartinHarper
28th-September-2006, 03:42 PM
The easiest way not to learn how to dance is never to go to a class.

I disagree. It's not compulsorary to go to a class to learn to dance - it is possible to learn both leading and following solely on the social dance floor. Given that, it's entirely possible for a popular but incompetent teacher to do more harm than good.

Additionally, teachers do not teach in a vacuum. A popular but incompetent teacher may be preventing students from finding less popular but considerably better teachers, particularly if they attempt to discourage students from looking at the alternatives (for example, by acting as if their group is the only one that teaches dance, or deliberately introducing confusion into the marketplace, or using a predatory pricing policy to kill off competitors, or banning customers who partake in lessons from competitors).

El Salsero Gringo
28th-September-2006, 03:43 PM
Thank you. :flower:

My point is that generally "keeping people coming" is not the best measure of whether a teacher is good or not.We're not debating the measure of a good teacher. We're debating what's important for a teacher. Not the same thing at all.
Anyway, I think you're confusing cause and effect. Being a good teacher (cause) may keep folks coming back (effect).

But lots of other things may keep folks coming back. What if the teacher (or their regular demo) is hot? That might get people coming back – doesn't make them a good teacher. :)Again, we're not talking about being a good teacher. We're talking about what's important for a teacher. If having a hot demo makes people come back, then that's important, for that teacher. Shame on David for not putting it on his poll.

In fact to be quite accurate, we're not even asked what's important for that teacher's class. So none of the stuff about what's being taught qualifies as an answer. What's important for the teacher is, simply, to get people coming back again.
No it isn't or Home Education wouldn't be possible. See http://www.education-otherwise.orgQuite true. I stand corrected.
I just don't want to see a "This is the only possible answer" non-debate.Then why did you ask for one?

El Salsero Gringo
28th-September-2006, 03:46 PM
I disagree. It's not compulsorary to go to a class to learn to dance - it is possible to learn both leading and following solely on the social dance floor. Given that, it's entirely possible for a popular but incompetent teacher to do more harm than good. Lord, the pedants are out in force today. Is it a field trip, or something?

OK - the best way not to learn to dance is never to go to a dance or a class.

And no, I'm not such a snob to think that some teachers are worse than no lessons at all. It's all dancing, of a sort, even if not up to "standard."

ducasi
28th-September-2006, 04:00 PM
We're not debating the measure of a good teacher. We're debating what's important for a teacher. Not the same thing at all.
Good point. The actual question is rubbish. What do you mean DJ by "for a teacher"?

Do you mean "for the teacher" or do you mean "of the teacher?"

For the teacher – that he gets paid, and yeah, like ESG said, that folks keep coming back (thus will continue to get paid. ;))

Of the teacher – i.e. for the class, that the teacher is good.

MartinHarper
28th-September-2006, 04:07 PM
I'm not such a snob to think that some teachers are worse than no lessons at all. It's all dancing, of a sort, even if not up to "standard."

Are we back to snobbery arguments so soon?
In that case, I'll argue that it's snobby to consider teacher-free learning to automatically be inferior to teacher-based learning, no matter how good the learning environment in the first case, and how atrocious the teacher in the second case. I feel like I've learnt more in a three minute social dance with some dancers than I have in a thirty minute class with some teachers.

Having said all that, I agree with you that popularity is an important factor in a good teacher. You can't teach anything to an empty room.

David Bailey
28th-September-2006, 04:08 PM
Blimey, what's this, misery day or something? :rolleyes:

El Salsero Gringo
28th-September-2006, 04:10 PM
Are we back to snobbery arguments so soon?Is 30 or so posts too soon? (I feel a poll coming on...)
In that case, I'll argue that it's snobby to consider teacher-free learning to automatically be inferior to teacher-based learning, no matter how good the learning environment in the first case, and how atrocious the teacher in the second case. I feel like I've learnt more in a three minute social dance with some dancers than I have in a thirty minute class with some teachers.In which case, reframe, and consider that the person you're dancing with for those three minutes *is* your teacher. More generally, unless it's true trial-and-error, if you're learning, someone is likely to be teaching!

David Bailey
28th-September-2006, 04:14 PM
We're not debating the measure of a good teacher. We're debating what's important for a teacher.
No, my intention was to debate what is the most important factor in a "good teacher". Apologies if that wasn't clear, I'll now go off and shoot myself.


Then why did you ask for one?
I wanted to focus people's minds (!) on a single issue. Always in the past this debate got mired in trying to define multiple qualities, arguing about what qualities to include, whether freestyle is part of the class, whether regular classes and workshops should be graded differently, etc., etc.

Whereas this thread's just got mired in mire... :tears:

My attempt was to pose a more tightly-defined question. "Attempt" being the operative word. :sad:

Dreadful Scathe
28th-September-2006, 04:23 PM
whats this thread about anyway ? :)

El Salsero Gringo
28th-September-2006, 04:39 PM
No, my intention was to debate what is the most important factor in a "good teacher". Apologies if that wasn't clear, I'll now go off and shoot myself.Even so: you can have the most important quality in a teacher (without which that teacher is nothing) and yet still it's not a measure of how good a teacher is - i.e. the more, the better.

For instance: number of legs. Vital for a Ceroc teacher to get this right. Having two is important; but having three doesn't make that teacher any better.

So the most important attribute is the one (whatever it is) that gets the class coming back week after week, whatever that attribute might be - charisma, hot demo, bribery whatever (did you get that bit already? :flower:). That's not to say that the better teacher has more of that attribute than the less good.

MartinHarper
28th-September-2006, 04:41 PM
Reframe, and consider that the person you're dancing with for those three minutes *is* your teacher. More generally, unless it's true trial-and-error, if you're learning, someone is likely to be teaching!

Does that mean I can call myself a teacher? I'm sure someone has learnt something from dancing with me, even if it's only "don't dance with guys in skirts".

TheTramp
28th-September-2006, 04:42 PM
Does that mean I can call myself a teacher? I'm sure someone has learnt something from dancing with me, even if it's only "don't dance with guys in skirts".

CJ is going to be so upset now.... :flower:

El Salsero Gringo
28th-September-2006, 04:43 PM
Does that mean I can call myself a teacher? I'm sure someone has learnt something from dancing with me, even if it's only "don't dance with guys in skirts".The difficult part is not in calling yourself a teacher. It's in getting other people to call you a teacher.

Alice
28th-September-2006, 05:04 PM
OK, I realize this has been covered before (for example, in the “Assessing teachers’ levels (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5218)” and the “Mark of a good teacher? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5332)” threads), but I’d like slightly rephrase the question, with better conditions, and put in a nice poll because obviously we haven’t had many of those lately :rolleyes:

So, in a standard Ceroc / MJ weekly class environment, for the duration of the class only, what do you think is the most important factor for a teacher?
I put adaptability as I think it covers a lot of ground. I realise people have different needs in a class, and a wide variety of levels- for me one of the most important skills for a teacher is to pitch the class to the people in it.

It's important for a teacher to be able to gauge the skill level of the class, and to focus the teaching accordingly, whether that means encouraging people to have fun or providing a high level of technical advice and support to a more advanced/serious group. This can include adapting the planned moves to suit the level mid-class (ie toning it down if it's beyond the group or adding variations to provide more of a challenge).

Gadget
29th-September-2006, 12:11 AM
The person who stands up at the front of the stage - they are not there to teach people how to dance. They are there to introduce people to dancing and what's involved in dancing Ceroc (or whatever other brand of MJ you care to flavour with). This "dance" has social codes, ethical guidelines, and is a whole package of entertainment and enjoyment. The "learn to dance" part is only a small part of the jigsaw.

A 'teacher' is not simply there to teach people how to dance, but to teach people about the whole MJ scene.

bigdjiver
29th-September-2006, 12:36 AM
I put adaptability as I think it covers a lot of ground. I realise people have different needs in a class, and a wide variety of levels- for me one of the most important skills for a teacher is to pitch the class to the people in it.

It's important for a teacher to be able to gauge the skill level of the class, and to focus the teaching accordingly, whether that means encouraging people to have fun or providing a high level of technical advice and support to a more advanced/serious group. This can include adapting the planned moves to suit the level mid-class (ie toning it down if it's beyond the group or adding variations to provide more of a challenge).:yeah: As I said my wife is a teacher. Probably the word she uses most often is "Relevance".
The word I treasure most used about her is "Inspirational".

MartinHarper
29th-September-2006, 12:43 AM
The person who stands up at the front of the stage - they are not there to teach people how to dance. They are there to introduce people to dancing and what's involved in dancing Ceroc.

This is true only for beginner classes. In improve/intermediate classes, I expect to be taught to dance. Even at Ceroc Enterprises venues.

David Bailey
29th-September-2006, 08:33 AM
This is true only for beginner classes. In improve/intermediate classes, I expect to be taught to dance. Even at Ceroc Enterprises venues.
:yeah:

I learnt a new step on Monday, in the improvers class - and it took me until halfway through the routine until I actually understood exactly how it should flow. And I was demo-ing it :blush: - so it's still possible to be challenged by dance moves at a normal Ceroc class, at almost any level I reckon.

tsh
29th-September-2006, 08:43 AM
A 'teacher' is not simply there to teach people how to dance, but to teach people about the whole MJ scene.

That may be true, but is it a criteria which can be used to diferentiate between good teachers and not so good teachers? I mean even I can stand up on stage and say 'it's OK for the girls to ask the guys to dance. etc...' I can probably even do it without having a script to read - and I'm not really someone who does standing on stages...

El Salsero Gringo
29th-September-2006, 09:27 AM
:yeah:

I learnt a new step on Monday, in the improvers class - and it took me until halfway through the routine until I actually understood exactly how it should flow. And I was demo-ing it :blush: :grin: That happened to me pretty much every week....

David Bailey
29th-September-2006, 09:30 AM
:grin: That happened to me pretty much every week....
Well, yeah, but no-one expects you to be good, you're just the teacher. The demo's the eye-candy, that's why they pick the gorgeous ones.

El Salsero Gringo
29th-September-2006, 10:18 AM
Well, yeah, but no-one expects you to be good, you're just the teacher. The demo's the eye-candy, that's why they pick the gorgeous ones.I meant that happened to me while I was demoing at Whetstone!

David Bailey
29th-September-2006, 12:33 PM
I meant that happened to me while I was demoing at Whetstone!

Hoist by my own petard :blush:

drathzel
29th-September-2006, 12:40 PM
can it not be multiple choice?????

TheTramp
29th-September-2006, 12:48 PM
can it not be multiple choice?????

I think that we had this discussion earlier in the thread.... :yum:

David Bailey
29th-September-2006, 12:49 PM
can it not be multiple choice?????
Blimey, explanations are a Sisyphean task here sometimes aren't they. :na:

OK, again, the reason I said "One" is to focus the mind, on the one thing. Not the "54 things", the one thing. :rolleyes:

El Salsero Gringo
29th-September-2006, 01:00 PM
Blimey, explanations are a Sisyphean task here sometimes aren't they. :na:

OK, again, the reason I said "One" is to focus the mind, on the one thing. Not the "54 things", the one thing. :rolleyes:How about just two then?

Go on, you know you want to.

Cruella
29th-September-2006, 01:02 PM
can it not be multiple choice?????

Maybe there was irony in Drathzels post! But i guess as she's female that wouldn't have occurred to you!:whistle:

David Bailey
29th-September-2006, 01:06 PM
Maybe there was irony in Drathzels post! But i guess as she's female that wouldn't have occurred to you!:whistle:

To paraphrase Terry Pratchett, I always assume anyone using five question marks is not being ironic.

Plus, I spent a lot of time trying to spell Sisyphean, you know, I'd hate to waste it.


How about just two then?

Go on, you know you want to.
I don't. I really don't.

Dreadful Scathe
29th-September-2006, 05:20 PM
:rofl:

El Salsero Gringo
29th-September-2006, 05:38 PM
Maybe there was irony in Drathzels post! But i guess as she's female that wouldn't have occurred to you!:whistle:Perhaps there wasn't. But then I guess as *you're* female, that wouldn't have occured to you!
I don't. I really don't.I bet you do really, and you're just shy.

David Bailey
30th-September-2006, 08:33 PM
OK, a quick snapshot of the results after a few days:


Crowd management: 1
Choice of routine: 1
Good communication of the moves: 11
Dancing ability: 0
Good (friendly) attitude: 1
Adaptability / interactivity: 7
Attention to individuals: 0
Useful tips (for example, floorcraft): 0
Charisma: 3
Other (please state): 3


The fact that "Good communication of the moves" is the clear favourite at the moment is quite a surprise to me - and this result is also not in line with most of the posts.

By the way, the reason I chose crowd management is because I think this is such an underrated skill. If you can't get people to pay attention, to move on smoothly, to listen to you, if you can't sort out the inevitable traffic snarl-ups, then to me it doesn't matter how good you are at the other things,

Gadget
30th-September-2006, 10:31 PM
Probably because people just read it as "good commiunication" rather than "...of moves"

(* by "people" I mean me :blush: )

ducasi
30th-September-2006, 10:31 PM
The fact that "Good communication of the moves" is the clear favourite at the moment is quite a surprise to me - and this result is also not in line with most of the posts.
What did you expect based on the discussion?

I'd say that "good communication of the moves" is as near as we could get to "ability to teach". That seemed to be a point raised by a number of contributors...

(Of course, perhaps you'll get more discussion from people who can't find the option they are looking for in the poll, and so it would maks sense for the poll and discussion to not reflect each other.)

David Bailey
1st-October-2006, 09:37 AM
What did you expect based on the discussion?
Dunno - I thought there'd be a more even spread, I guess.


I'd say that "good communication of the moves" is as near as we could get to "ability to teach". That seemed to be a point raised by a number of contributors...
Well, that may mean that people generally consider the moves to be the most important factor in the class, which again is interesting.

ducasi
1st-October-2006, 10:14 AM
Well, that may mean that people generally consider the moves to be the most important factor in the class, which again is interesting.
That wasn't in my mind when I ticked the box... Again, I was just looking for something as close to "ability to teach" as I could find. :)

David Bailey
1st-October-2006, 12:32 PM
That wasn't in my mind when I ticked the box... Again, I was just looking for something as close to "ability to teach" as I could find. :)
Yep, but the point was that people associate "good teaching" with "communications of moves", which to me implies that at least some of them (not necessarily you, but Other People :) ) think that "moves" are the most important factor in a class.

ducasi
1st-October-2006, 01:35 PM
Yep, but the point was that people associate "good teaching" with "communications of moves", which to me implies that at least some of them (not necessarily you, but Other People :) ) think that "moves" are the most important factor in a class.
I disagree with your analysis (I still think it's people associating "good teaching" with "communication"), but if the class sets out to do little more than teach a few moves, would it really be a surprise to find that many people think they are the most important factor in a class?

Lou
1st-October-2006, 06:36 PM
I disagree with your analysis (I still think it's people associating "good teaching" with "communication"), but if the class sets out to do little more than teach a few moves, would it really be a surprise to find that many people think they are the most important factor in a class?

:yeah:

It's the ability of communicating how to dance. It also implies that the teacher is aware of how to dance. Ironically, someone can be a good dancer, without knowing, technically, how they do it. The teacher at a class I regularly go to at the moment is an excellent example of this. She dances with style, and very nicely, however it's a great example of how to confuse a class full of early intermediates when she said "It doesn't matter which way you turn" to the men, whilst teaching a Hatchback. Many of them struggled, trying to work out which way to go, with several of them trying to do multiple turns. With her overuse of words like "push" and "pull" in her instructions to the class, she has a lot of ermmmm... vigorous dancers. IMO, by choosing to communicate using such words, and by communicating the instructions of how to do a move in such a confusing manner, means that her class don't learn as well as they might from another teacher.

So, yes, to me the communication aspect of the move is the most important factor that you list. But with the proviso that the person understands the subject that they are trying to teach.... :wink:

Lynn
1st-October-2006, 08:22 PM
By the way, the reason I chose crowd management is because I think this is such an underrated skill. If you can't get people to pay attention, to move on smoothly, to listen to you, if you can't sort out the inevitable traffic snarl-ups, then to me it doesn't matter how good you are at the other things,Well you could say that about several other things. And it is something that can actually be helped out by others eg taxi dancers. The teacher can tell people how many to move round and the taxi dancers can go round and make sure people don't get confused. I've seen this in action.

And getting people to pay attention isn't just about crowd control, its about being an effective communicator that they want to listen to. If you aren't explaining things well and people are getting confused, that's often when they all start talking to each other, trying to work out what you meant.

So I can see your logic for including it, but I would doubt it could be considered as the 'one most important factor'.

tsh
2nd-October-2006, 02:03 PM
The fact that "Good communication of the moves" is the clear favourite at the moment is quite a surprise to me - and this result is also not in line with most of the posts.


Maybe it's the factor that people notice most when they decide a teacher is not very good - so rather than identifying the good teachers, we're identifying what the poorer teachers are missing. The reasons someone comes away from a class feeling that they haven't got anything out of a class can be quite varied, but they may still feel the teacher hasn't communicated the moves well.

Sean

bigdjiver
9th-October-2006, 03:58 PM
a quote aquired from a newsgroup:

" I didn't see any mention of timing, knowing when and how to say something often carries more strength than a continued beating about the head and shoulders. If the idea is to teach, not only must the students adapt but the teacher must also adapt as well. A small push at the right time, in the right place... can change everyhing."

Tessalicious
9th-October-2006, 04:43 PM
:yeah: Exactly why I voted for adaptability.

The best example of this that I have ever seen was in the very first Ceroc (as opposed to MJ) teacher I was taught by: Bill Cooper. At the Jive Bar, on a particularly busy night when there were an unusually high number of ladies over for the intermediate class, he ditched the class he'd prepared and decided on the spot to do a Double Trouble class, to balance the numbers and make sure more people were dancing and enjoying themselves than otherwise would be - and it worked. The whole class had a great time, those of us who at that point didn't even know DT existed were introduced to this new idea, and the ladies got some camaraderie going too, where there would normally be some animosity with a large surplus of ladies (if this were done more often, maybe we'd have less complaints about ladies over and more leads who can do double trouble).

What makes a good teacher is dependant on the class (I totally agree with tsh's point about what seems most important being what's missing that that particular class needs) - and since the class will change every week, even in a regular venue, adaptability is key.

Naturally, you also need to be good at all the things you're adapting to.

frodo
9th-October-2006, 10:14 PM
...
By the way, the reason I chose crowd management is because I think this is such an underrated skill. If you can't get people to pay attention, to move on smoothly, to listen to you, if you can't sort out the inevitable traffic snarl-ups, then to me it doesn't matter how good you are at the other things,:yeah: - if you generally dance in large crowded venues especially with high turnover (or weekend events).

I would have thought it is a teachable/learnable skill to a moderate level.

I think it is definitely the best indicator factor in the list; that the teacher has given this (underrated skill) attention indicates an attention to detail, and the overall most effective teaching methods.