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Caro
23rd-September-2006, 09:20 PM
A thought for debate.

In partner dancing, we always put the emphasis on the fact that this is a 2 persons activity, 2 people connecting together and dancing.
May be it’s just me in my post-southport blues, but I have been wondering if (multiple) partner dancing really wasn’t a solo activity. Let me explain.

Obviously what makes a dance is 2 people connecting in some way that they will produce something coordinated, which might even appear as a bit of magic to the ‘muggle’ eye. Now during a social event, you will dance with many different people. The more you ‘connect’ with a partner, the more likely you will think ‘wow this dance was fab’.
First level of connection (to me as a follower) is to respond to my lead – i. e. concentrating on my partner and doing what he wants me to do. Speaking the same (body) language with its codes: tension, compression, spins etc.
The second level is connecting through the music: making (vertical) sense of what I am hearing. There as a follower I need: a. to understand pretty quickly which bit of the music (like which instrument for example) my partner wants to interpret (assuming here that my partner is interpreting the music and not just doing random moves to a beat) and respond to that; and b. if I hear something different that I want to interpret, do it in a way that will not bother my lead (i.e. not destroying the connection). Now this can be difficult if we are not hearing the same thing and I might not be able to recognise what he is doing if I am blinded (‘deafed’) by something else in the music. This will create a tension between us and we will not connect that much.
To me, the dances that are fab are those when we both hear the same thing and interpret the music in the same fashion.

But then, even if you manage a great connection, it is pretty much impossible to tell what is going through your partner’s mind. He/She might be totally absorbed in the music, or being thinking ‘that move would have worked better here’ or ‘I wonder if I left the lights on at home’ or ‘my partner didn’t recognise I was doing this and messed up there’ or ‘I didn’t expect this’ or whatever.
Even if you give plenty of eye contact and smiles, there’s no way your minds will ever connect (or is there?).
The fact that we usually dance just 1 or 2 tracks with somebody then move on to a different partner and repeat that all night doesn’t help obviously.

Which brought me to the conclusion that although we are always looking for that perfect connection with a partner, we will never achieve it. When you dance, you are first and foremost alone, trying to connect with another person through a few square centimeters of skin and a tune. But you have your own and unique way of hearing and understanding the music, and your own and unique way of responsing to that (your style).
So are we - like kids running after a rainbow to touch it – vainly dancing after a pipedream?

Lynn
23rd-September-2006, 09:46 PM
Here's some initial thoughts, after reflection I may have others...

We will never know what another person is thinking in any aspect of life. We simply aim to communicate on whatever level we can. That communication doesn't have to be verbal, and often what we say isn't what we really mean and non-verbal communication can be more meaningful than words.

We often look for the connection in the dance itself, and we can get connection that way.

But for me the music is the medium through which I can get the best connection - the connection flows from the shared expression of the music.

Lead and follow doesn't have to involve actual contact (eg I had an early morning 'air contact' dance at SP, which alas my tired brain couldn't follow for an entire song).

You can have a very connected dance with a complete stranger, and a totally unconnected dance with your life partner.

True connection involves giving something to the dance, to your partner. This can be scary - is this person giving back? How is this person reading what I am giving? Am I giving too much? I often hover on the edge of this level of connection and hesitate, sometimes sensing the same hesitation in my partner. Those are the dances, though delightful, I always think could have been better. And often, if I do give in and connect more, I panic and withdraw again. Sometimes I regret that.

TA Guy
24th-September-2006, 12:00 PM
I wouldn't list 'mind-reading' as one of the requirements of a fantastic connection :), empathy maybe.

I read somewhere, or saw on TV, can't remember, that during a conversation, some ridculously high percentage of all communication being non-verbal. 80% or something. And loads of it being subconcious. Therefore, presumably, you can communicate a whole lot of information during a dance before you even hold hands :)

...Then you have the physical guide of the holding hands and the communication you can impart with that.

Then you have the guide of certain Modern Jive 'rules' (structure of moves etc.), and styles (Blues etc.) and what that communicates to you.

As you say, on top of that, you have the guide of the music and what that communicates to you.

Lastly you have the controversial communication of signals, or even verbal commands in a few rare cases :)

Putting it like that, it is communication rich activity with plenty of 'guides' to help you along. Obviously, connection breaks down when those five are misinterpreted, or interpreted differently. (And any others I have forgotten).

But those five do give plenty of room to get a fantastic connection without having to know every stray thought that goes thru your partners mind.

On the other hand, I am always slightly dubious about those who claim to have achieved a fantastic connection with a complete stranger. I don't doubt it's possible, but it seems to be claimed far more than would appear likely given the list above and all the inherent possible interference. Peoples idea of a 'fantastic connection' must vary I guess. Maybe it's like 'love at first sight' :)

Is it possible to get the absolutely perfect connection?
On instinct I say 'no'.
Even tho there may be huge amounts of communication, no communication is perfect, and I guess even something as mundane as floorcraft could be contrued as degrading the connection, and we all practise safe floorcraft don't we ? :whistle: There is always interference at some level in the connection.
But that's the scientist in me babbling. :eek:
Is absolutely perfect communications needed for a absolutely perfect connection?
Probably not, you could argue error-tolerance is built in (Thank God), and we're not talking about mind-melding unity here, just dance :)

You don't have to achieve perfection for it to be perfect.
It is an Art after all :clap:

MartinHarper
24th-September-2006, 12:12 PM
Even if you manage a great connection, it is pretty much impossible to tell what is going through your partner’s mind.

Yep. When I'm trying to connect to my partner, I'm trying to connect to her body, not her mind. The endpoint is to have two bodies moving as one, not two minds thinking as one.

Nice thread.

Lynn
24th-September-2006, 12:43 PM
As you say, on top of that, you have the guide of the music and what that communicates to you. Interesting, as for me music isn't what is 'on top' of the other things but the underlying essence. The dance adorns or 'decorates' the music. I don't have to be responding to the same part of the music as my partner for us to have the connection - but we do have to be hearing the music the same way and understanding what the other is doing and moving in harmony. The dances with harmony of movement, rather than simply mirroring, are those you know are heading for that good connection.

On the other hand, I am always slightly dubious about those who claim to have achieved a fantastic connection with a complete stranger. I don't doubt it's possible, but it seems to be claimed far more than would appear likely given the list above and all the inherent possible interference. Peoples idea of a 'fantastic connection' must vary I guess. Maybe it's like 'love at first sight' :) No, its a very rare occurance (for me anyway). The fact that its possible at all is simply an indication that you don't have to know someone, or anything about them, except how they are dancing with you, to that piece of music, to have good connection.

Beowulf
24th-September-2006, 12:55 PM
Good thread Caro.

This is something I've thought about in the past. When I dance I'm often so wrapped up in thinking about moves, the music, my Partners enjoyment (or lack thereof) of the dance that ,although I'm focused intently on the dance, the connection might not be there as there's just so much going on..

hmm.. A Star Trek Quote may be appropriate here..

Jenna: "What were you just thinking?"
Data: "In that particular moment, I was reconfiguring the warp field parameters, analyzing the collected works of Charles Dickens, calculating the maximum pressure I could safely apply to your lips, considering a new food supplement for Spot"
Jenna: "I'm glad I was in there somewhere"

:rofl: :whistle: :wink:

Perhaps I think too much when I dance to truely connect :blush:

TA Guy
24th-September-2006, 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TA Guy View Post
As you say, on top of that, you have the guide of the music and what that communicates to you.


Interesting, as for me music isn't what is 'on top' of the other things but the underlying essence. The dance adorns or 'decorates' the music. I don't have to be responding to the same part of the music as my partner for us to have the connection - but we do have to be hearing the music the same way and understanding what the other is doing and moving in harmony. The dances with harmony of movement, rather than simply mirroring, are those you know are heading for that good connection.


When originally writing, it was bad wording by me, I didn't mean to imply any league table or weighting :)

Mr Cool
24th-September-2006, 07:04 PM
[QUOTE=Caro;283332]A thought for debate.

In partner dancing, we always put the emphasis on the fact that this is a 2 persons activity, 2 people connecting together and dancing.
May be it’s just me in my post-southport blues, but I have been wondering if (multiple) partner dancing really wasn’t a solo activity. Let me explain.

Obviously what makes a dance is 2 people connecting in some way that they will produce something coordinated, which might even appear as a bit of magic to the ‘muggle’ eye. Now during a social event, you will dance with many different people. The more you ‘connect’ with a partner, the more likely you will think ‘wow this dance was fab’.
First level of connection (to me as a follower) is to respond to my lead – i. e. concentrating on my partner and doing what he wants me to do. Speaking the same (body) language with its codes: tension, compression, spins etc.
The second level is connecting through the music: making (vertical) sense of what I am hearing. There as a follower I need: a. to understand pretty quickly which bit of the music (like which instrument for example) my partner wants to interpret (assuming here that my partner is interpreting the music and not just doing random moves to a beat) and respond to that; and b. if I hear something different that I want to interpret, do it in a way that will not bother my lead (i.e. not destroying the connection). Now this can be difficult if we are not hearing the same thing and I might not be able to recognise what he is doing if I am blinded (‘deafed’) by something else in the music. This will create a tension between us and we will not connect that much.
To me, the dances that are fab are those when we both hear the same thing and interpret the music in the same fashion. :yeah:


Nice post :worthy:

As a leader getting the right connection is paramount:yeah:

I like to start with a simple soft lead at the same time giving the lady 100% attention testing her to see how she responds to the music, my lead and the level of attention I get back in return. I do love attitude in followers:yeah:
I like to encourage a lady to feel she has freedom to add musical interpretion that might be a simple shimmy, break or jazz step when she feels fit.
And although i do have a positive lead the very best dances are where the physical lead is very light but the mental connection is very strong. :clap: :clap:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

Gadget
24th-September-2006, 11:09 PM
I don't think that the "connection" is that important. Or even the "communication".
What are you trying to communicate with your partner? How to move and what you hear within a song. When two people seem to 'merge' on the dance floor and move as one, it's not because they are communicating with each other really well - it's because they are both listening to the same music, hearing the same build up, break, marking the same instrument...The moves, the connection, the musicality and their presence on the dance floor all stems from them both moving in the same time with the music.

I can "connect" with complete strangers on the dance floor - this is not because I can "connect with them" and lead well; it is because I watch them while they are dancing. I step when they step, if they mark the beat with a foot fall, a knee bend, the hips,... when within the beat do they lift that foot? do they? is it simply slideing? pivoting? How does their torso move? is there a delay between torso and hips? is there a time pattern?...??? Mirror and match this timeing and movement while listening to the music and find out what they are dancing to. I'm not connecting with my partner; I'm listening to what they are dancing to and dancing to the same thing.
After you have this, any move or movement will seem "connected". :D

Is it solo dancing? Are you only influenced by the music? Or are you also influenced by your partner? Isn't the "partner" bit of partner dancing the manipultion of this influence? I think so. It's much easier to do this when you are both dancing to the same bits in the music ;)

Lynn
24th-September-2006, 11:16 PM
When two people seem to 'merge' on the dance floor and move as one, it's not because they are communicating with each other really well - it's because they are both listening to the same music, hearing the same build up, break, marking the same instrument...The moves, the connection, the musicality and their presence on the dance floor all stems from them both moving in the same time with the music.
:yeah: I've been struggling to find the right words to express what I mean about this. (Music as the babel fish that translates our expressions? Sorry, having a silly moment there.) Music is the shared element, movement is the individual expression that we seek to harmonise with our partner.

I don't think it has to be marking the same instrument though, in the same way that the music isn't just one instrument but several playing in harmony and creating the overall effect, partners can be marking different instruments but still be in harmony - as long as they both hear the same things in the music and appreciate what the other is doing.

straycat
25th-September-2006, 09:06 AM
Like Lynn, I've been finding it difficult to get the phrasing to reply to this thread. This is my fourth attempt...

First off, the question: "Could partner dancing really be a solo activity?" - no, no and a thousand times no! (good thread though)

I have to take answer this from my own perspective, my own way of dancing, of course. Everyone's different, and for some people, the answer could well be 'yes'. Not for me.

I've said this before - a good dance is a conversation. The communication goes on at many levels, some visual, some tactile, and as much as possible through subtle physical connection. I may be the leader of a dance, but I'm not controlling it. I'm directing it, manipulating the overall shape of it, but it's a partnership, and my partner has just as much input as I do. I may lead her into a move, but the way she does it, the way she moves, the way she interprets the music, showing me more meanings in it, it's the physical response she gives back... all that gets fed back into what I lead next. It's constant communication, both ways, and it's when this process is working at its height that you get start to get some incredible shared and un-repeatable spontanaeity of moves.

Can you have this kind of dance with a complete stranger? Absolutely - yes. We've all had great conversations with complete strangers, and this is exactly the same.

Is connection important? No - it's not just important - it's the key to everything - it's what makes the dance - it's the ultimate holy grail - and it's why I dance.

SnowWhite
25th-September-2006, 09:15 AM
I've said this before - a good dance is a conversation. The communication goes on at many levels, some visual, some tactile, and as much as possible through subtle physical connection. I may be the leader of a dance, but I'm not controlling it. I'm directing it, manipulating the overall shape of it, but it's a partnership, and my partner has just as much input as I do. I may lead her into a move, but the way she does it, the way she moves, the way she interprets the music, showing me more meanings in it, it's the physical response she gives back... all that gets fed back into what I lead next. It's constant communication, both ways, and it's when this process is working at its height that you get start to get some incredible shared and un-repeatable spontanaeity of moves.

Can you have this kind of dance with a complete stranger? Absolutely - yes. We've all had great conversations with complete strangers, and this is exactly the same.

Is connection important? No - it's not just important - it's the key to everything - it's what makes the dance - it's the ultimate holy grail - and it's why I dance.

Well said Straycat264!

And just as in any conversation - if it is a one-sided thing, with one person monopolising the discussion, then no matter how interesting that person's point of view - it just doesn't work.

But when that connection is made...... OH WOW! :drool:

alex
25th-September-2006, 09:47 AM
When two people seem to 'merge' on the dance floor and move as one, it's not because they are communicating with each other really well - it's because they are both listening to the same music, hearing the same build up, break, marking the same instrument...The moves, the connection, the musicality and their presence on the dance floor all stems from them both moving in the same time with the music. ive seen one professional couple practice with no music, or with just the leader wearing headphones. they said it was to work on their connection, and by the looks of it, it seemed to work. they had also tried with just the lady wearing headphones, but didn't know if it made the connection better or worse.

Lynn
25th-September-2006, 11:03 AM
I've said this before - a good dance is a conversation. The communication goes on at many levels, some visual, some tactile, and as much as possible through subtle physical connection. I may be the leader of a dance, but I'm not controlling it. I'm directing it, manipulating the overall shape of it, but it's a partnership, and my partner has just as much input as I do. I may lead her into a move, but the way she does it, the way she moves, the way she interprets the music, showing me more meanings in it, it's the physical response she gives back... all that gets fed back into what I lead next. It's constant communication, both ways, and it's when this process is working at its height that you get start to get some incredible shared and un-repeatable spontanaeity of moves.Been thinking a bit more about this. What I want to communicate is 'this is what I'm hearing in the music' and get feedback.

Sometimes what I'm getting from the lead is 'this is a move', 'this is another move'. That may be because they are beginners and that's the only vocab they have, or they may not be hearing anything in the music to express. My response is 'Ok', 'yep', 'ok'. Its not a conversation - I'm listening and responding. (Otherwise called following...:rolleyes: ). I usually don't like to interrupt unless the lead 'says' 'did you have anything to add?' (not always at the point in the song where I have anything to add so I just end up wiggling and feeling a bit silly!)

The great dances for me are when the lead is saying 'this is what I'm hearing in the music' and I'm replying 'I'm hearing that too and this is what else I'm hearing' and the lead is going 'Cool, lets play with that as well'.

Caro
25th-September-2006, 11:11 PM
well first of all, thanks for the replies - enjoyed reading that :yeah:

Of course when I say 'you are first and foremost alone', or 'it is pretty much impossible to tell what is going through your partner’s mind' I am merely stating the obvious (yet frustrating) essence of our human condition. I could just as well argue that dancing could help transcending that but for the sake of having a (small) debate I decided to go for the counter argument. Much more provocative :devil: .

Especially I'd like to thank Lynn for sharing this:


True connection involves giving something to the dance, to your partner. This can be scary - is this person giving back? How is this person reading what I am giving? Am I giving too much? I often hover on the edge of this level of connection and hesitate, sometimes sensing the same hesitation in my partner. Those are the dances, though delightful, I always think could have been better. And often, if I do give in and connect more, I panic and withdraw again. Sometimes I regret that.

this is very personal and helped me to put words on thoughts I probably had somewhere in the back of my mind, helping me to 'materialise' those thoughts in some way. As a follower it is all so easy to simply expect everything from your leader, and forget that you have to give something too to take the dance from "very good" to "great" and "great" to "fab". Ans as always with giving a bit of yourself, this presents some degree of risk. To be honest this made me realise that I am probably not 'giving' enough in most instances, i.e. not risking myself in a dance (for some people this is scary believe me :blush: ).

Anyway, moving on.


I don't think that the "connection" is that important. Or even the "communication".


Have to disagree there Gadget. As Lynn and Straycat explained very well, I also think dancing is 'a conversation'.



The great dances for me are when the lead is saying 'this is what I'm hearing in the music' and I'm replying 'I'm hearing that too and this is what else I'm hearing' and the lead is going 'Cool, lets play with that as well'.

Doesn't happen very often, but when it does...:awe: It's like your just building your (you and your partner) own little bubble in the world, nothing exists appart from: hey, do you want to play with that too? I like what you did with this... can you hear that fun/slow/tender/angry bit coming? etc!

I think there is so much so can achieve with looking at your partner, if you don't have that great connection all the way through it's difficult to materialise what you might pick up from observing them. You need to give yourself in the dance as well rather than just matching/mirroring what they are doing (although :respect: for actually centering your dance around your partner - not many guys do that!) - back to Lynn's point earlier.


Anyway I guess some of the underlying questions for me, which have fed that reflection, are:
1. Have you ever felt alone (or lonely if you want) during a dance event (although dancing all night)? It happened to me at Southport (no sympathy rep please I am not particularly sad about it just stating an observation), although I was having one great dance after another, I felt that I rarely had the 'time' to really connect with somebody... may be something to do with binge dancing? Never happened before, or never that accurately. :confused:

2. Do you think that it is possible for one of the partners to experience a different level of connection in the same dance? Could you be having a fab dance when your partner is just having a 'good' or 'average' dance? Or vice-versa? I really wonder about that and never really got to the point where I shared my feelings about a dance I just had with a partner (again, is it a drawback of 'binge dancing'?).

Any more thoughts?

Gadget
25th-September-2006, 11:55 PM
I don't think that the "connection" is that important. Or even the "communication".Have to disagree there Gadget. As Lynn and Straycat explained very well, I also think dancing is 'a conversation'.
I still stand by that statement: to be a partner dance and dance with your partner, you don't have to have a physcal connection. You don't have to communicate with each other. If you are both dancing to the same song, then no communication is necessary - both people are dancing and harmonising with the music; adding their voices to the choir. It could be a solo activity.

However when you add communication into the mix, then you have something special: You are not only dancing within the song, but you are dancing with the influence of your partner and influencing your partner.


1. Have you ever felt alone (or lonely if you want) during a dance event (although dancing all night)? I have felt a few times drowned in a sea of "mediocrity". Feeling the music build, building the dance, punctuating moves to stress the music, and generally flowing with the music... then looking up/arround and seeing everyone dancing away - turning and twurling, throbbing to the pulse of the music rather than soaring with the melodys and tune. At these times (if I look out of the bubble) I think "can't you hear the music?". This is probably the most alone and isolated I feel on a dance floor.
I try and take my partner with me; if they are already with me, then it's a fantastic dance - I am not alone. We may be, but that's the good 'alone' where nothing else exists outside of the zone. :D


2. Do you think that it is possible for one of the partners to experience a different level of connection in the same dance?Yes.
I try and make every dance the best I can for my partner - the best dance of the night. To me, that makes it a good dance for me as well.
I hope for them it's a great dance, but if the connection is equal, how can I then have every dance being "great"? One person may comment that it's the best connection/dance they have had all night, but to me it may have been the worst :what:
I'm not sure whether this is a reflection on my dancing, everyon else's dancing, on leads vs followers, or on what else; I only know that the proposition is true - in a partner dancing, one partner can (and will) experiance a diferent level of connection from the other.

strobie
26th-September-2006, 06:06 PM
[my first post - be gentle :eek:]


The fact that we usually dance just 1 or 2 tracks with somebody then move on to a different partner and repeat that all night doesn’t help obviously.

I'm a total beginner, just did my 4th class yesterday so I can't comment on what it's like if you actually know what you're doing :worthy:. I hope I can however comment on what motivated me to start, and my impression so far!

I might be unusual here, but I don't really want to dance with strangers! For me it's a means to an end - I want to be a good dancer so I can connect with people I care about (well OK, person :blush: but I don't rule out enjoying dancing with other good friends as well :nice:).

I expect everyone wants to reach a point where they're not thinking about the moves, but feeling the music together with their partner; for me, I can't really imagine that without knowing the partner well - I would have thought there's all sorts of peripheral influences that affects one's perception of music and two random people are really quite unlikely to sense that right off the bat.

Isn't Nirvana when your dance partner is your life partner? I do hope so! :wink:

Dynamo
26th-September-2006, 06:40 PM
[my first post - be gentle :eek:]

I'm a total beginner, just did my 4th class yesterday so I can't comment on what it's like if you actually know what you're doing :worthy:. I hope I can however comment on what motivated me to start, and my impression so far!

I might be unusual here, but I don't really want to dance with strangers! For me it's a means to an end - I want to be a good dancer so I can connect with people I care about (well OK, person :blush: but I don't rule out enjoying dancing with other good friends as well :nice:).

I expect everyone wants to reach a point where they're not thinking about the moves, but feeling the music together with their partner; for me, I can't really imagine that without knowing the partner well - I would have thought there's all sorts of peripheral influences that affects one's perception of music and two random people are really quite unlikely to sense that right off the bat.

Isn't Nirvana when your dance partner is your life partner? I do hope so! :wink:

Welcome Strobie :clap: :clap:

You are right to pick strangers to learn from, the better the dancer the better you learn how to do the right thing. :respect:

You are not alone in wanting to dance mainly with your special partner. My elder sister dances almost exclusively with her husband and they look so well connected. I dance with her and another sister, but never get as connected to the married sister who knows best the ways of her husband.

For me dancing your partner can be more special, even despite any differences in level or ability etc.

Some very good comments from someone who must be finding so many things new. :respect: :respect:
come and join us you are most welcome

D

SnowWhite
26th-September-2006, 06:46 PM
[my first post - be gentle :eek:]

Isn't Nirvana when your dance partner is your life partner? I do hope so! :wink:

Strobie - May you find what you seek. :flower: I really hope so for you too!

Little Monkey
26th-September-2006, 09:05 PM
Isn't Nirvana when your dance partner is your life partner? I do hope so! :wink:

Sorry to be brutal and crush your dreams........ But just because the person is your life partner, doesn't necessarily mean that's the person you'll dance best with! Although of course it happens!

My partner and I both love dancing, and we both love dancing with each other. However, we can go out dancing and end up having the best dance of the evening with someone else. I wish Greg and I were each others favourite dance partners, and that we had amazing connection and 'chemistry' on the dance floor, but sadly we're not quite there yet... And it's very frustrating!

As I've said in another thread, there might be a lot of reasons for this. One is that I have a back injury, and Greg is very scared of doing anything that might hurt me (while other people might not think about it as much, and just go for it!), and can be overly cautious. Another reason is that I sooooooo desperately want to be a perfect dancer when I dance with him, and end up not relaxing properly.

Hopefully we'll reach the point one day of being each others dream dance partners. That would be nice. In the meantime we'll just keep enjoying our dances with each other:awe: (and with other people), as often as we can, which isn't often enough, living 480 miles apart....

Oh, but I have heard from other people that they think it looks like Greg and I have amazing connection when we dance together, which is good!

Aaargh, I want to dance with Greg now! :tears: