Ouch, that's my hand!

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

When dancing as a lead in the beginners class, recently i've noticed a couple of hand clutchers, or finger grabbers, or whatever you want to call them. You know when the ladies grip onto your hand so tight you can barely turn them properly or let go of their hand to push spin them?
Now, please don't think I am being insensitive, as it's not true, everyone has their own problems when they start out. But if I can't lead them properly then how are they going to properly learn, or moreso, how are the beginner men that they dance with going to?
Leave it to the taxi's perhaps? Well, thought i'd put my views out there anyway. :D

Lots of love to all my forum friends :respect:
xx

[jive_me]

If they're new or asking for advice I'll gently suggest relaxing and not gripping. While dancing I pull back so that I'm leading only by my fingertips...hopefully at that point there won't be a chance for them to grab. Or...keep changing hands so that they get the message that they can't grip.

xXx:flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

My experience with new dancers is they think they're *supposed* to be holding on with their thumbs. You do actually need to tell them (many times, because it sinks in only slowly) that their partner should never be able to feel their thumb on the back of their hand.

If they're not new, then just ask them - as a special favour to you - not to use their thumbs because you prefer it that way. That way you're not preaching but you achieve the goal you seek.

[Lynn]

My experience with new dancers is they think they're *supposed* to be holding on with their thumbs. You do actually need to tell them (many times, because it sinks in only slowly) that their partner should never be able to feel their thumb on the back of their hand.
This is something that is emphasised from the stage in local classes which makes it much easier for me (whether on taxi duty or not) to 'remind' ladies (or leads) with a smile 'remember, no thumbs required'.

I think it really stems from a fear of breaking contact with their partner, so reassuring them its ok to lose contact and easily picked up again can help, and if they are new, that holding on too tight is a common error (so that they know its not just them).

We had a lead who got round the 'no thumbs' by gripping tightly with his fingers. It was someone I've known for years so I was able to repeatedly remind him not to do that - and he doesn't anymore. Liek ESG says, these things can take time as people aren't aware of how tightly they are holding on, they're thinking about lots of other things. But its a habit that has to be broken as not only does it make dancing more uncomfortable, it can lead to an injury (esp on a turn/return).

[Ghost]

Personally I tend to shift to ballroom frame (buttefly grip I think it's called) and do lots of first moves, manhattens etc and let the taxis sort it out - but the taxis at Bow are pretty good at doing that :clap:

Be Well,
Christopher

[Tazmanian Devil]

When dancing as a lead in the beginners class, recently i've noticed a couple of hand clutchers, or finger grabbers, or whatever you want to call them.
I generally tell the ladies that it would be far more comfortable if they were to loosen their grip a bit.
When Taxi-ing I always go through the whole hand grip thing (repeatedly, I am sure when I go to bed the night after taxi-ing I mutter start in nice and close, hands at ladies waist level and no thumbs) I generally also do a demonstration on where I get random lady to grip onto my hand and attempt on turning her then get her to loosen the grip and do it again so as all ladies and gents can see the difference.
I do the same sort of thing with porridge stiring but thats another topic :flower:

Personally I tend to shift to ballroom frame (buttefly grip I think it's called) and do lots of first moves, manhattens etc and let the taxis sort it out - but the taxis at Bow are pretty good at doing that :clap:
Hey you do that with me :tears: Or is that cause we chat while we are dancing :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Ghost]

Hey you do that with me :tears: Or is that cause we chat while we are dancing :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Or I just really like manhattens......:clap:

Anyway what better move for me to be able to see you going :na: ?

:wink:
Christopher

[Beowulf]

There's a woman at my regular venue.. She's not a beginner by a long chalk. she insists on gripping my hand in a vice like grip and leading as well.

If that wasn't bad enough she gazes around the room chewing her gum with a look of bored indifference on her face. Mind you as she doesn't actually need me to dance as she's covered every base herself then I can't see what she needs to acknowledge my existance :)

Needless to say she's NOT one of my favourite dancers. An dI know this is petty, but if I get her during the class.. I Deliberately pause and slow moves down and put a lot of tension in my arms so when she tries to fly ahead and lead.. well.. I don't make it easy for her.

I should say something to her.. but she's been going longer than me.. and it's not my style. But yes.. to the original quesiton... I hate grippers

[Andreas]

But yes.. to the original quesiton... I hate grippers

Wouldn't go as far as 'hate' but I certainly dislike dancing with them. Had one of them Friday at Ashton's and the result was that yesterday at Funky Lush I started to get a swollen nuckle at one of my fingers, which I usually use most for leading. Sucks.

[MartinHarper]

You do actually need to tell them (many times, because it sinks in only slowly) that their partner should never be able to feel their thumb on the back of their hand.

Absolutely. Communication beats everything.

The other thing I sometimes do is physically remove their thumb from the back of my hand, and keep doing that until it stays off.

In freestyle I occasionally end up spending a lot of time leading from wrist/back/shoulder.

[Beowulf]

Wouldn't go as far as 'hate' but I certainly dislike dancing with them. .

ok.. I suppose "Hate" is the wrong word. I do strongly dislike grippers and I understand new dancers sometimes don't know better.. and for these I have the patience of a saint. I do my best to tell them about loosening their grip, not anticipating the moves, letting me lead etc.

What I do hate are the dancers who despite me and many others telling them repeatedly all of the above they still insist on leading and gripping. Luckily these dancers are few and far between.. but sadly not non-existent.

[LemonCake]

Now, please don't think I am being insensitive, as it's not true, everyone has their own problems when they start out. But if I can't lead them properly then how are they going to properly learn, or moreso, how are the beginner men that they dance with going to?

I know the problem well. But why are you not saying anything to them in class? When I am in class as a follower, I appreciate any tips from my lead on how to follow to make the experience better. When I am in class as a lead, I take the same responsibility to pass on tips - hopefully with extra value from my experience of following (which not many men have).


Absolutely. Communication beats everything.

The other thing I sometimes do is physically remove their thumb from the back of my hand, and keep doing that until it stays off.


:yeah: I do that too, every time after the first request. Done with a smile, it is very effective.

:flower:

[Gadget]

I know the problem well. But why are you not saying anything to them in class?When? The 5-6-7-8 count in has aready started before the partner reaches you, then the teacher is talking through the move (to talk over them would be rude) then they are demoing it (partner is watching them) and then they are walking it through again, then the gripper is off again to the next victim.... There are some dissadvantages to an efficient teacher :rolleyes:

I try to "say" it through my connection, using my first two fingers in sort of the reverse of scissors, forcing my partner's hand open, and/or slipping from the "grip" to only have a 'contact' point somewhere on the hand.

BTW JohnTheHappyGuy raised this issue in the thread Avoiding Pain (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4793) - I remember giving more detail in there.}

[Stuart M]

When dancing as a lead in the beginners class, recently i've noticed a couple of hand clutchers, or finger grabbers, or whatever you want to call them. You know when the ladies grip onto your hand so tight you can barely turn them properly or let go of their hand to push spin them?

The "no thumbs" thing is pretty much part of our standard talk through at the start of the refresher class, and if any of followers I'm dancing with does it, I'll gently prise their thumb off the back of my hand. Occasionally I'll try to demonstrate how gripping can screw up a move - in future I'll always do that bit, to maybe help make the point hit home. Apologies if we're letting "grippers" slip through. :blush:

It is a little difficult to deal with this in a refresher class, without wrecking a newbie's confidence completely. There's an element of "look, you can't even do the basic handhold correctly" which creeps in if the taxi keeps repeating it to a follower. Given that the newbie is trying to learn another 6 things at the same time, and gripping is a nerves issue as much as a technical error (e.g. when concentrating on her feet in a return, the follower may grip again), it's tricky to deal with.

Ash, I'd recommend mentioning it (with a :grin: ) to any beginner you dance with in a beginner's class. As to the correct moment to mention it, I'd say it's pretty simple. Immediately following the point where the return/letting go bit has gone t**s up because you can't move your hand freely...

[NZ Monkey]

Had one of them Friday at Ashton's and the result was that yesterday at Funky Lush I started to get a swollen nuckle at one of my fingers, which I usually use most for leading. Sucks.I remember not that long ago at Fulham almost having my fingers broken not once, but TWICE in a single night by grippers during spins. It was a good three days before I could move one of my fingers through a full range of motion again:tears:

As other people have said, I don't mind when beginners get it wrong, as long as they're trying to put it all together. They'll stop doing it eventually and in the meantime we can keep an eye on them to make sure they don't hurt us or anyone else if we can help it (They also tend to spin a lot slower, so you have more time to save yourself if you need to :devil: ). Just smile and give them a friendly reminder.

It's the ones who have obviously been around for a while and still do things like that who irritate me. Especially if they just ignore your suggestion and move onto the next poor lead who ends up dancing with a worried look on his face.

Thankfully, most of them are the first kind rather than the second :D

[Dreadful Scathe]

Especially if they just ignore your suggestion and move onto the next poor lead who ends up dancing with a worried look on his face.


Is "thumbs" a tactic mainly of followers or leads ? I ask because Ive heard it mentioned that some leads are bad for this but I cant think of many followers who try and grip too hard (course that may be down to MY lead, dunno)

[NZ Monkey]

Is "thumbs" a tactic mainly of followers or leads ? I ask because Ive heard it mentioned that some leads are bad for this but I cant think of many followers who try and grip too hard (course that may be down to MY lead, dunno)
Well, all the trouble I’ve ever had has been with followers gripping my fingers and keeping that hold as they spin during a return or something similar. This tends to twist the fingers of the guy, and if they start holding on really tight it can go pretty badly.

It’s not pleasant when a lady grips my hand using her thumb, but I don’t think that kind of grip has the same potential for things to go pear-shaped (since its easier to slip that kind of grip than the one I mentioned earlier) so perhaps I don’t notice it as much.

Purely from the leads perspective here. The leads are probably in a position to make life more difficult by using the thumbs than the followers are :D

[Twirly]

When? The 5-6-7-8 count in has aready started before the partner reaches you, then the teacher is talking through the move (to talk over them would be rude) then they are demoing it (partner is watching them) and then they are walking it through again, then the gripper is off again to the next victim.... There are some dissadvantages to an efficient teacher :rolleyes:


Quite few leads do this – went to a class (not my usual) a while back and every third lead I had to peel their thumb off… :what:

It doesn’t take that long – a quick lifting of the thumb and a “you don’t need that” with a :nice: can usually be squeezed in.

Even if you are into the move very quickly, before you’ve realised the problem, you can tell them when you come out – and if they look puzzled, just demo the move again to make the point. And if they look embarrassed, then just shrug, tell them not to worry and say that everyone does it at some point.

As for their concentrating on other things – that’s true. But isn’t this something pretty fundamental? If the new lead (or follow) gets into this habit in the first 2 or 3 classes, it’ll be harder to break (though sadly easier to break your fingers). :sick:

[Gav]

When? The 5-6-7-8 count in has aready started before the partner reaches you, then the teacher is talking through the move (to talk over them would be rude) then they are demoing it (partner is watching them) and then they are walking it through again, then the gripper is off again to the next victim.... There are some dissadvantages to an efficient teacher :rolleyes:


I have found that just keeping hold of the gripper before they move on and politely explaining it works well. It brings the whole class to a halt 'cos no-one can move around, which tends to get the teacher's attention!

While I'm sure that it's a bit annoying for some people to have the lesson held up an extra 20 seconds, I'm sure that if they knew the reason they'd be OK about it.

I'm fairly new so I don't have the confidence to do this all the time, but for the real beginners if no-one does it, they'll never learn.

[Dynamo]

I have found that just keeping hold of the gripper before they move on and politely explaining it works well. It brings the whole class to a halt ...
....

:yeah:

Hopefully the gripper will be gently reminded in a beguiner review class and or by a frienly taxi.

A tactic i have employed sometimes when you get to repeat with the same person.
Very gently squeeze their hand before the repeat, and now release the grip now to a lower than normal pressure, ensuring your lead is slow smooth and gentle.

Not gaurenteed, but can put at ease some of the determined panic grippers.

Persistant grippers I have very gently clasped around their complete hand so they feel a light lead with no opertunity to grip, so they find the move accomplished with very light force.

Hope this may solve a couple of grippers for you. :nice:

[AllanMcC]

I regularly hear the teacher tell the women in the class that if the man is using his thumbs, they should remind him to remove them, but don't think I've ever heard the teacher specifically remind women not to use their thumbs.
Allan

[whitetiger1518]

I seem to have the opposite problem....

My right hand doesn't have as much feeling in it as my left, and if you have a lovely light hold on me ( you guys know who you are :flower: ) then I tend to end up losing the hold altogether and turning what would have been an ordinary spin or return into a version of the ceroc spin...

The guys that dance with me are a very patient lot - Thanks to you all :worthy: :worthy:

Cheers

Whitetiger

[Listener]

I'm aware of "grippers" and the few I have danced with have actually tended to be more experienced dancers! Would happily advise someone I knew to be an realtive beginner but not quite sure I'm good enough to advise more exeprienced dances yet (and yes I know I should be able to comment/discuss I just don't).

One problem I often have is in trying to put my hand flat to indcate a "let go spin" (say after a yo-yo) and find the partner is still hooked round my fingers so I end up doing a normal return..........

[TurboTomato]

One problem I often have is in trying to put my hand flat to indcate a "let go spin" (say after a yo-yo) and find the partner is still hooked round my fingers so I end up doing a normal return..........

:yeah:

[Gav]

One problem I often have is in trying to put my hand flat to indcate a "let go spin" (say after a yo-yo) and find the partner is still hooked round my fingers so I end up doing a normal return..........


:yeah:

Fortunately there is a tactful way of dealing with this.
If you don't feel confident enough to just come come right out and say something, because they're more experienced than you or whatever, you wait until neither of you is dancing, then pull them to one side and ask them to help you work through a problem your having. Explain that when you want to lead that move, it's not going the way you intended and your not sure what you're doing wrong. That way they should discover that it's them in the wrong and you don't have to tell them.
Or, as in my case, you'll find out it is actually you in the wrong all along and not them at all!:o
Yes, I felt bloody awful because I'd talked about this terrible follower on this very forum and it turns out it was me not her! But my approach worked perfectly because I'm a better leader and she's none the wiser! :D

[Listener]

Or, as in my case, you'll find out it is actually you in the wrong all along and not them at all!:o


:rofl:

That'll no doubt be me as well but top tip cheers :nice:

[Jhutch]

I'm aware of "grippers" and the few I have danced with have actually tended to be more experienced dancers! Would happily advise someone I knew to be an realtive beginner but not quite sure I'm good enough to advise more exeprienced dances yet (and yes I know I should be able to comment/discuss I just don't).

One problem I often have is in trying to put my hand flat to indcate a "let go spin" (say after a yo-yo) and find the partner is still hooked round my fingers so I end up doing a normal return..........


:yeah:

Phew, its not just me who finds this happens to them then:clap: I thought that maybe i was pushing too hard or not hard enough or something (although maybe that is the reason in my case:blush: )


Fortunately there is a tactful way of dealing with this.
If you don't feel confident enough to just come come right out and say something, because they're more experienced than you or whatever, you wait until neither of you is dancing, then pull them to one side and ask them to help you work through a problem your having. Explain that when you want to lead that move, it's not going the way you intended and your not sure what you're doing wrong. That way they should discover that it's them in the wrong and you don't have to tell them.
Or, as in my case, you'll find out it is actually you in the wrong all along and not them at all!:o
Yes, I felt bloody awful because I'd talked about this terrible follower on this very forum and it turns out it was me not her! But my approach worked perfectly because I'm a better leader and she's none the wiser! :D

:clap: Thanks for that. I'll give it a try next time:)

[ducasi]

Fortunately there is a tactful way of dealing with this.
If you don't feel confident enough to just come come right out and say something, because they're more experienced than you or whatever, you wait until neither of you is dancing, then pull them to one side and ask them to help you work through a problem your having. Explain that when you want to lead that move, it's not going the way you intended and your not sure what you're doing wrong. That way they should discover that it's them in the wrong and you don't have to tell them.
Or, as in my case, you'll find out it is actually you in the wrong all along and not them at all!:o
Yes, I felt bloody awful because I'd talked about this terrible follower on this very forum and it turns out it was me not her! But my approach worked perfectly because I'm a better leader and she's none the wiser! :D
:yeah:

I've found that many of the problems I've had with dancers in the past have turned out to be, partly or wholly, a fault in my dancing.

[StokeBloke]

I am lucky. I have a fantastic teacher. He constantly drums this into the class in a light fun manner and explains the reasons why you need "fingertip control". It is attention to these sorts of details that (to me as a newbie) sets a great teacher out from a good one.

Being new I try to just weather the storm as I don't really feel in a place to be correcting other people. They go 'on my list', as I tend to make a mental note not to ask them to dance in the freestyle. Coward? Maybe :whistle:

It is very hard to try and work on not stirring porridge for example if your partner is clutching your hand like it's the ripcord handle on a reserve parachute, and your fingers are going numb!

The worst case I have had with the death grip was a dance with a lady who led me with the strength of a docker a couple of days back. She told me triumphantly that she had only been dancing a few weeks as she threw my arm across my chest and blasted off into a yo-yo almost dislocating my fingers in the process... me... I just grinned to myself.... you're on my list missus!

I love dancing! :flower:

[Lee Bartholomew]

Had my finger dislocated by a gripper a few weeks ago. Really hurt and had to pop it back. This was by someone who has been going for atleast three months.

Have now taken to telling beginners that they grip and why not to and if im dancing with someone I think should know better, I shake my hands till they let go, re-establish the connection and continue.

[Minnie M]

Had my finger dislocated by a gripper a few weeks ago. Really hurt and had to pop it back. This was by someone who has been going for atleast three months.

Have now taken to telling beginners that they grip and why not to and if im dancing with someone I think should know better, I shake my hands till they let go, re-establish the connection and continue.
I sometimes join the beginners class as a lead - and find there are so many newby ladies who grip hard

The hand hold and tension should be the very first thing tought to both follow and lead - is it not done any more ????

[Whitebeard]

I sometimes join the beginners class as a lead - and find there are so many newby ladies who grip hard

The hand hold and tension should be the very first thing tought to both follow and lead - is it not done any more ????

That's one of the purposes of the Ceroc Essentials at the start of every Beginner class. Moving in time to the music, the hand-hold (for the follow - likened to holding a shopping trolley), and compression/tension through experiencing those in-and-outs. Yes, some ladies remain tense, fail to lower the wrist, and perhaps grip too hard; others seem to arrive with that dreadful death bounce already in place (little hope I fear for them).

Although I now purposefully arrive after this session has been gone through (need to conserve my energies) I'm sure it is taught, with varying degrees of commitment and emphasis, at all Ceroc venues. I have been exposed mainly to two CTA trained teachers and it is hard to imagine two such contrasting styles. Both good in very different ways.

It's a start but, once dancing, the hand-hold (connection) is dynamic and variable and pretty well unteachable in the normal class environment. The oh so desirable smoothness, light yet clear connection (with those delightful fingertip moments to savour), just comes, or fails to come, in the fullness of time with continuing dance experience.

I remember many weeks agonising over the hand hold, particularly leader's right to follower's right. Now, the fingers roll with little thought and it's just a matter of assessing and adapting to the current follower's style.

[NZ Monkey]

It's a start but, once dancing, the hand-hold (connection) is dynamic and variable and pretty well unteachable in the normal class environment. The oh so desirable smoothness, light yet clear connection (with those delightful fingertip moments to savour), just comes, or fails to come, in the fullness of time with continuing dance experience.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but *I* was taught in class how to alter the handhold to maintain connection through the moves and dance. All it really takes is the teacher paying attention to details like that when they teach the move. Not everyone will listen to them of course but some will - so it is teachable.

[Shodan]

If I dance jive with "hand grabbers" I often tell them not to do that as not only does it ruin a dance, its laos very uncomfortable.

When dancing Tango or Ballroom style dances, if a lady grabs hold of my left hand (remember ballroom stance) then I either tell them once, but if they keep doing it I bend my hand out every now and then which bends their hand back and repositions their fingers. Its a subtle way that most ladies dont notice - especially as most dont realise they are gripping my hand.

Its just funny for me as I have bad circulation anyways (long story) and if a ballroom stance with the hands in that position it has been known to make my hand go dead. :rofl:

[Princess Fi]

I've found that most of the beginners who grip my hands when either leading me, or being led by me, are not aware that they are doing it. They look so nervous about not getting the moves right that they tense up while focussing really intently on the stage to follow the moves beig taught.

Rather than tell them outright (since they are nervous and are focussing so much on steps, timing, etc etc - it would just be one more thing), to get them to stop gripping my fingers, I just wriggle them* really obviously and quickly. I've found that when I do that, they lighten their grip since its too distracting to hold on to these wriggly fingers and focus on the class at the same time

*my fingers, not the beginner :blush:

Of course this doesn't stop the one or two who think that gripping is the way of the future

(like the bloke at my last class who not only insisted on gripping my hand, but bending my fingers backwards really painfully as a signal for a free-spin. Apparently I should "make my hand into a fist" so I don't get hurt by this "perfectly normal" lead.)

*mutter* aye I'll show you a fist mate *mutter* :mad:

[Whitebeard]

Apparently I should "make my hand into a fist" so I don't get hurt by this "perfectly normal" lead.)



I'm afraid I'm sometimes guilty of reverting unconsciously to the Lady Spin (which was taught this way) rather than doing it in the way now taught as the Ceroc Spin.

A hand on the right upper arm/elbow should alert you to what is coming.

[Princess Fi]

(which was taught this way)...

:confused: :what:

OMG - people were actually taught to bend a girl's fingers back till they hurt to get her to spin????

I'm not sure I even like the idea of the finger bending combined with the arm/elbow warning - for one thing as its not being taught anymore a whole host of people will not know to prepare for this, and end up getting hurt as a result.

(of course I could be misunderstanding the move you are describing - if its a case of 'slight pressure to the fingers' then OK, seems fair if risky during fast number)

[Genie]

So what do you do when you regularly get asked to dance by a man who grips with his thumbs, quite painfully sometimes, and 'has' been asked many times by various women not to and each time he takes it badly, like a personal insult.

I hate saying no to a dance, but the thumb thing is starting to hurt.

[Princess Fi]

So what do you do when you regularly get asked to dance by a man who grips with his thumbs, quite painfully sometimes, and 'has' been asked many times by various women not to and each time he takes it badly, like a personal insult.

I hate saying no to a dance, but the thumb thing is starting to hurt.

*Fi tries to resist the urge to say...*

kick him each time you do a return and claim its a style point you are very proud of and how dare he complain about it

*...bad Princess!*

[Jhutch]

So what do you do when you regularly get asked to dance by a man who grips with his thumbs, quite painfully sometimes, and 'has' been asked many times by various women not to and each time he takes it badly, like a personal insult.

I hate saying no to a dance, but the thumb thing is starting to hurt.

Grip back even harder?:devil:



Makes you wonder why he doesn't take the hint? Doesn't he think that as lots of people seem to object that maybe it is not someone being oversensitive or bossy or something, but actually his problem? Couldn't one of the men, or the teacher, explain that it is possible to dance without using his thumb?

[Whitebeard]

OMG - people were actually taught to bend a girl's fingers back till they hurt to get her to spin????


No, no, no. Silly wee princess ;-)

The hand on elbow was an indication that the follower should make a fist of that hand. And, honestly, the move did work. In fact the follower probably had more control of the impetus into the spin and because the couple could be closer there was less chance of the follower being thrown off balance.

However, I shall try to mend the error of my potentially finger-breaking ways.

[MartinHarper]

(like the bloke at my last class who not only insisted on gripping my hand, but bending my fingers backwards really painfully as a signal for a free-spin. Apparently I should "make my hand into a fist" so I don't get hurt by this "perfectly normal" lead.)

By way of background, several places teach the use of a "ball-and-socket" grip in certain moves, whereby the follower's hand is the ball that fits into the socket of the leader's hand, without any gripping. It's normally considered the leader's responsibility to mould the hand-grip as he sees fit, rather than being something the follower needs to know.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I went to a venue last night which, whilst it's one of my local venues (2 mins walk) I haven't been there for a year.

I struggled anyhow as the floor had been stripped and I was a bit off anyhow having not danced properly for a week or so, but almost every woman there was a gripper.

Also I found it nigh on impossible to lead a good majority of them. With one girl I went in to a werlitzer, which correct me if im wrong, is not an advanced nor complex move, she managed to grip on to my hand as I turned her, nelsoning her arm behind her back and pulling me to the floor.

She latrer said that it had hurt her shoulder and that I shouldn't do complex moves???!!! Turns out she had been dancing 6 months and even after I showed her what a werlitzer was, she still instested that it was complex?????!!!!!!????? (mind you the Ceroc Spin tm confused most of the girls and the Tango intermidiate lesson consisted of a first move, catapult and a penguin, absolutly no tango at all (unless the fact the routine was done to the Gotham project track counts))).

What can you do with these people? :sad:

[MartinHarper]

What can you do with these people?

Keeping the follow's left arm at about chest height and extended means that they can't easily turn under it, or self-nelson into it. You can also keep the prep before the move relatively small. Finally, when your partner self-nelsoned unexpectedly, you were ill-prepared and thus were pulled off your feet and hurt your partner a bit. It would have been better to react to the pull earlier by stepping forward.

[NZ Monkey]

Keeping the follow's left arm at about chest height and extended means that they can't easily turn under it, or self-nelson into it. You can also keep the prep before the move relatively small. Finally, when your partner self-nelsoned unexpectedly, you were ill-prepared and thus were pulled off your feet and hurt your partner a bit. It would have been better to react to the pull earlier by stepping forward.Keeping the arm high like this also puts the shoulder in a weak position though, and if she is prone to over rotating then this increases the chance of a dislocated shoulder by quite a lot.

Then she'll probably just go right through to the self-nelson anyway:devil:

I agree about keeping aware yourself though. It's your responsibility to look after your partner, regardless of how much danger they are to themselves (or how much danger you think they are to themselves). It's much better to abort a move that's going badly in a dangerous way than to just hope for the best. In this case someone got hurt.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Keeping the arm high like this also puts the shoulder in a weak position though, and if she is prone to over rotating then this increases the chance of a dislocated shoulder by quite a lot.

Then she'll probably just go right through to the self-nelson anyway:devil:

I agree about keeping aware yourself though. It's your responsibility to look after your partner, regardless of how much danger they are to themselves (or how much danger you think they are to themselves). It's much better to abort a move that's going badly in a dangerous way than to just hope for the best. In this case someone got hurt.

The move was a werlitzer where you have to set the hand at waist height.

When she self nelsonond, she moved backwards at the same time which is what paulled me off balance as she had a full on grip on my hand. There was absolutly nothing I nor anyone else in my position could have done.

Yes you should look after your partner when you dance, but your partner should help things by looking out for themselves.

[MartinHarper]

Keeping the arm high like this also puts the shoulder in a weak position though, and if she is prone to over rotating then this increases the chance of a dislocated shoulder by quite a lot.

Hmm. Fully extended is bad, I agree. It's not immediately obvious to me that an arm at chest height, 90% extended, makes the shoulder vulnerable. I'll take your word for it.
I'd like to think that self-preservation and avoidance of pain would kick in prior to any dislocation, but I do fear that's being optimistic.


It's much better to abort a move that's going badly in a dangerous way than to just hope for the best. In this case someone got hurt.

Certainly if you can abort a move, that's always preferable to pain and injury. That's why the occasional person who grips needs to be corrected as a matter of priority: it prevents folks from aborting moves if they start to go wrong.


The move was a wurlitzer where you have to set the hand at waist height.

Well, the move was a wurlitzer, where we are commonly taught to set the hand at waist height. I think the common teaching is simplified, and a better height is a few inches higher. It's more distinct from the lead for a nelson or wrap, it allows the follower to more easily keep her wrists low, and it's better at creating the straight line from lead-elbow to follow-elbow that is recommended.


When she self-nelsononed, she moved backwards at the same time which is what pulled me off balance as she had a full on grip on my hand.

I'm not intending to criticise here, just looking at possibilities. One thing that other forumites have talked about is "following the follower" when she does something unexpected. When your partner self-nelsoned and stepped back, that will have exerted a pulling force on your right arm. In this case, I guess the ideal response would have been to treat that force as if you were the follower, and thus step forward before the force rose to imbalancing levels. Easier to say than to do, though.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I'm not intending to criticise here, just looking at possibilities. One thing that other forumites have talked about is "following the follower" when she does something unexpected. When your partner self-nelsoned and stepped back, that will have exerted a pulling force on your right arm. In this case, I guess the ideal response would have been to treat that force as if you were the follower, and thus step forward before the force rose to imbalancing levels. Easier to say than to do, though.

Yeah It would have been and would have been a much easier option than landing on my ass.

Unfortunatly these things don't work in real life situations aswell as they do in one's head. It was all abit too quick. She was a large lady and im only little.