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JamesGeary
5th-May-2003, 03:33 PM
So who was your favourites in each category?
As Amir and Lily's orange boy, and the other half of the Stevie Wong fan club, I'm going to discount my vote!!

And more scarily, will the Wongster cleaning up in Intermediate start a wave of bacofoil wearing Wong wannabies?

TheTramp
5th-May-2003, 04:53 PM
Just going from the people who reached the finals (since I didn't get to see a lot of the rest of the heats).

Open - Ben & Hollie (Didn't have all the moves, or the polish of some of the other couples, but I thought they danced the best to the music, and in the blurb, it says that it is all about musicality)

Advanced - Debs & Hillal

Intermediate - It scares and saddens me to say, the Wongster and Natasha

Showcase - Deb & Ben

Double Trouble - Who else, but Bill, Fran and Denise

Team Cabaret - She Bangs. Totally together the entire time. Maybe not the best dancers, but so well rehearsed....

Lucky dip - Again, who else but Wendy & her lucky man!

Steve

Bill
6th-May-2003, 09:15 AM
We had a long chat on Sunday night and Monday morning about the standard and the result of introducing the Open category.

I think it really worked and demonstrated just what a difference there is between the top dancers and most of the rest. I htink the Advanced is now much more 'open' in that almost anyone having a good day could win whereas over the last few yeras it's been a case of expecting one of a handful of couples to win.

Some of the quality in the Open was superb and all very different which really shows that there is more than one style. I think taking the likes of C&J, Tramp and a few others out of the Advanced means that this year I felt the overall standard of the Advanced dipped and a few of the Intermediate finalists could well have competed at Advanced level. And I don't mean any disrespect to the Advanced competitors - or the finalists but if you do take the likes of J&C and a few others out of the event then it's bound to suffer a little.

But on the whole I think there is a clear line of progression now from Intermediate up to the Open which should encourage many more dancers to enter the events - but does winning the Advanced - or reaching the final mean couples should have to move up to the Open next year :D :confused:

Everyone had fun and as folk keep saying that's what it's meant to be about.

DavidB
6th-May-2003, 01:11 PM
A few random thoughts

I thought the dancers managed to create a great event in a venue that was totally unsuitable for it.
- A dance event where dancers are not allowed to take bags in is ridiculous. It was nice to see so many people ignore this restriction.
- I could understand the ban on food and drinks if there were suitable alternatives available inside. There weren't!
- And if you are going to ban food and drink, then please tell people in advance.
- I would hate to perform somewhere that had so few people to the front, and so many to the sides. Maybe there is an argument for the showcase in particular to be done on the stage?

The comperes did a good job.

The standard of the intermediate was the highest I have seen.

The advanced was a true competition for advanced dancers - ie the best dancers who do it purely for fun. Having a separate open category for teachers (both current and prospective) and the handful of serious competitors was definitely a good idea.

Everything seemed to run pretty well. They managed to get back on track after the slightly late start, which is never an easy thing to do. The judges seemed to be well organised. The marks went up pretty quickly. The only thing I would have changed was the running order in the finals and put the showcase on first. Both couples did amazingly well to do back-to-back routines in the Showcase and then the Open. Is there actually a need for a Showcase final? And I would gather all the finalists near the stage when the prizes are awarded. It would make the awards run much quicker, and give us more time to dance.

The competition music was variable - ranging from poor to average. I can't recall a really good track being played. I was expecting far more variety in the style of music rather than just the tempo. The freestyle music seemed to be a lot better. I think Ceroc should leave the choice of competition music up to their Director of Dancing, rather than their Director of Music.

I was expecting more aerials in the Open. I'm actually quite happy that there weren't - hopefully it means the dancers thought they had to win by dancing, not by doing tricks. But I was still hoping to see something interesting when they did aerials.

I don't see the need for 'warm-up' tracks in anything apart from the first round of the Lucky Dip.

I personally have no complaints about the judging. I think it is fair to expect a panel of Ceroc teachers to want to reward Ceroc dancing. The style of some dancers particularly in the Open looks really good, but is not necessarily pure Ceroc. I would guess that the results would have been different had the Blackpool judges been judging. I also think the Blackpool result would have been different had the Ceroc judges been there. This is not a complaint - far from it. If you knew the same people were always going to win, it would take away some of the excitement. Similarly if all the competitions were looking for the same factors, with the same weightings, then it would get boring. It looks to me that musical interpretation is more important at Blackpool, whereas variety and complexity of moves is more important in London. Both represent perfectly valid criteria for competitions.

David

DavidB
6th-May-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I think Ceroc should leave the choice of competition music up to their Director of Dancing, rather than their Director of Music. Sorry - I just re-read that, and it sounded like a personal attack. It wasn't meant to be.

What I was trying to say was that the normal responsibility of the 'Music' side of ceroc (ie the DJs) is to play music that would appeal to the largest cross section of those dancing at a particular venue. Generally they do this very well. Probably the worst thing for a DJ is playing something that clears the floor.

However competition music is different. You don't have to keep everyone on the floor - I would hope they are not going anywhere. Instead the music should be selected to inspire the dancers to perform to the best of their abilities. And for the more advanced divisions it should also test their ability to show different facets of their dancing. The point I was trying to make (badly) was that 'Dance' side of Ceroc should have either the responsibility, or at least some input into the selection of the competition music.

David

Chicklet
6th-May-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by DavidB


The comperes did a good job.
.

Was paying very close attention and listening very hard from a fairly uncrowded position and caught about 10 words so if they did a good job then their equipment didn't.

What was her crack about the Forum when the Caberet came on?

Just curious because as I say, I couldn't make it out.

C

Dave Hancock
6th-May-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet

What was her crack about the Forum when the Caberet came on?


Think they said something about the fact that we ought to get out more

DavidB
6th-May-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
... caught about 10 words ...

... take your hands off my ears ... Could that have had something to do with it?

For most events I was standing on the floor, just in front of the DJs. I had no problem hearing what they were saying. I can't comment on how they sounded elsewhere. I don't know if there may have been a problem with accents - it never occurred to me at the time, but you only tend to notice different accents, not ones you are used to.

I said they were good because they did the basics (announcing heats and competitors etc), kept things moving, were always enthusiastic, didn't panic too much when things went wrong, and kept a sense of humour. They would never win awards as stand-up comedy duo, but they did a pretty good job. I have seen far worse.

Grant
6th-May-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
Was paying very close attention and listening very hard from a fairly uncrowded position and caught about 10 words so if they did a good job then their equipment didn't.
C
I think the problem was that in the upper level where you were sitting the roar of the air conditioning drowned out the compere. On the lower levels the volume and clarity was fine.
Notwithstanding the crack about our fabulous Scottish cabaret team I thought the comperes did a pretty good job of keeping the chat and the competition flowing. That can't be easy for an event which runs all day.
I agree with the perceptive (as usual) comments of DavidB regarding the event. The venue was dreadful - the place was so dark I had trouble finding anyone (and Sheena walked straight into a seat when she came in), I ended up standing up most of the day just to get a view (as did most people) and not being allowed to take in bags or water was a joke.
Having said that I had a great day watching all those top dancers and dancing with a few myself. Congratulations to everyone involved and special mention to Wends for a totally in character performance, the double trouble team of Bill, Fran and Denise for winning such a fiercely contested event and my personal favourites Popeye and Olive Oil for the fun and spontaneity they injected.
:cheers:
Grant

Chicklet
6th-May-2003, 04:53 PM
Fair point David!!!!!

But don't remember being engaged in any other activities:wink: at the time!!

I'm usually Ok with the accents - as long as I'm "listening" in the same one they are speaking, which doesn't always happen at first. Was expecting and listening in "estury" - was I right to try that?


Sounds like Grant sussed out what the problem was, guess I was just a bit unlucky this time and should have got up and tried another vantage point - will keep this in mind for the future.

C

Bill
6th-May-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Grant
The venue was dreadful - the place was so dark I had trouble finding anyone (and Sheena walked straight into a seat when she came in), I ended up standing up most of the day just to get a view (as did most people) and not being allowed to take in bags or water was a joke.
Grant

These were amongst the complaints listed from the last few years and although I feel there was a real improvement in terms of information, the website, the schedule and list of entrants and -and as David says, keeping to the schedule and making up the lost time - was a real bonus. I was just getting into the dancing when it was all over. Pity it can't go on till 1.00 !

The venue is poor but having fewer people certainly did help I think for competitors it's very difficult to get a good view while you are trying to find a space then dash off and get changed so I missed quite a lot this year but I have some footage.

If they could find a larger ( and better lit) venue then they could have a great competition on their hands. The level of competition is very good and the Open category is a real success and the main reason I would go again. There may still be some disagreement with some judging decisions but David has already said what needs to be said. Such a wise head on such young shoulders !!! :na: :wink


Didn't even see much of Nina in her Olive costume but hope to catch that in the official video. No doubt some rather tired and sore bodies around the country today :D Hope to see some of the successful Scots down at Dundee on Friday............and some of the other Forum regulars very soon in Scotland. You're always welcome :cheers: :hug:

TheTramp
6th-May-2003, 05:12 PM
and some of the other Forum regulars very soon in Scotland:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

DavidY
6th-May-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
Was paying very close attention and listening very hard from a fairly uncrowded position and caught about 10 words so if they did a good job then their equipment didn't.

I was following the advice previously given on this very forum (...Is Ceroc Too Loud...?) (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=15313#post15313) and wearing earplugs a lot of the time. I know my ears would have been ringing afterwards if I hadn't done this (although going round wearing earplugs is no fun & it's very difficult to talk to anyone!)

Having said that, where I was I could hear nearly all of what was said on stage - even with earplugs! :confused:

Agree with previous comments on the venue - the fact that it was dark and you couldn't see other people made it a bit anti-social. Blackpool was much lighter, open and sociable. There was also the ingenious way that the fabric on the roof seemed to funnel the heat right to where people were sitting on the upper level...

David

Graham
6th-May-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I thought the dancers managed to create a great event in a venue that was totally unsuitable for it.
Not for the first time I find myself agreeing with almost everything in David's post. (When are you going to get the hang of this forum and throw in a few inane remarks? :wink: )

As David said, a lot of things were done well, but the venue was appalling.

It was far too dark until someone obviously found the switch for the house lights during the early evening. For example, the men's changing area was in almost pitch blackness - I didn't dare put anything on the floor in case I couldn't find it again.
The tap water thing has already been mentioned, so I won't reiterate, but the bar prices in general were not exactly cheap - they had flyers indicating special CEROC "offers" - I'm just glad I didn't have to pay whatever their regular prices are! I can understand this if, for example, the venue was being provided free or very cheaply, but was this really the case? Given that many of the bars ran out of the most popular items, I think bar takings must have been substantial.
Virtually all the women in the group I was in complained about the state of the toilets.
Certain parts of the venue were distinctly smelly, and this was noticeable so early on I'm sure it wasn't the people who were there!
The bag check-in policy was intensely annoying. I had to dance the first (and, for me, only :tears: ) round of the lucky dip with my change, wallet and a mobile phone in my pocket because I didn't have time to go and check them in.
The acoustics were dreadful except in front of the stage.
There is insufficient seating generally, and almost a complete absence of comfortable places to watch from.

This was my first trip to the Championships, having previously competed in Scotland and Blackpool, and both those venues were far more suitable for a competition.

I also agree with David on the music, and I noticed one spot in particular (Intermediate Round 3) where Erick played what I thought were distinctly different tracks for each of the two heats. I also thought the final freestyle session was a bit too "safe", but maybe that's just the London norm?

I didn't have any complaints about the judging either, in the sense that I thought it was consistent, although I personally prefer a greater emphasis on musical interpretation which as David mentioned was more obvious in Blackpool.

Emma
6th-May-2003, 08:36 PM
Yeah but...it was fun, wasn't it?!:what::wink::hug:

Seriously though - yeah, it's a lousy venue. I hope the 'powers that be' (may they walk on perfumed carpets for ever more etc etc) will find a better, larger, better lit, bigger (BIGGER!!!) venue for next year. I hope that some minor miracle will occur and the venue owners will discover personal enlightenment through the selling of soft drinks at sensible prices.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner (song anyone?) but I am kindof used to grotty loos, horribly overpriced drinks and lousy door policy. This is how nightclubs are, isn't it? (maybe I should get out in other places more..??) I completely agree that the Blackpool venue was superior in absolutely every way. Someone find me a job 'up North' fer goodness sakes :wink:

jiveclone
7th-May-2003, 03:22 PM
I do not by any means regard £2 a pint for diet coke as a reasonable price.

However unfortunately it is quite common to have to pay that sort of price in venues used by CEROC and other modern jive operators in London and the surrounding counties (Berkshire, Surrey, Hampshire, etc).

There are a few venues which charge more reasonable prices.

However I think that the majority of venues charge £1-80 or more a pint, and £2 or more is quite common.

Jon
7th-May-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I noticed one spot in particular (Intermediate Round 3) where Erick played what I thought were distinctly different tracks for each of the two heats.

He did this in the lucky dip heat 3 too. Since I was in that round I thought it a bit unfair that the 2 heats had totally different styles of music one was dance the other latin. I know we are surposed to be able to dance to any music but as far as judging goes surely it's fairer to keep the music similar.

Jon
7th-May-2003, 06:00 PM
I thought that the queue outside the building was terribly slow, and was due to the bag searching being done. Just lucky it wasnt raining. I was starting to wonder if I'd make it onto the floor for the lucky dip at one point and I was near the front of the queue.

Not allowing food or drink in is dreadfull. Some of my group managed to sneek in sandwiches tho :waycool: Prehaps Ceroc should pay the venue more money so they dont have to make more by selling their own food.

And prehaps Ceroc should actually think about giving decent prizes out. After getting through 5 rounds of lucky dip the 3rd prize is a £10 boogie steps voucher how insulting is that. And 1st price was a £25ish voucher thats not even 1 shoe! If you work out before expenses how much Ceroc made that day it comes to approximatly £25k ticket sales and 4.5k competitor entries. And someone said they dont make a profit!

Ladies the Gents toilets were terrible too, some didnt even have loo seats!.

Drinks were over priced but hey thats London for you. Food was basic and just about edible, glad theres a Mc Donalds round the corner which most of my group visited.

Alots been said about the music but I actually thought it was really good.

The floor of the venue was terrible, the dance floor I couldn't spin too well on. But maybe that was due to the carpets being sticky and getting onto my dance sneekers.

But apart from all this it was a really good day, if they do something about the venue and the prizes it'd make a brilliant event.

TheTramp
7th-May-2003, 06:08 PM
Actually Jon, what I said was that I've heard people at Ceroc say that they don't make a profit. Which isn't quite the same thing....

Have to say, that I do agree that the prizes aren't good. And for the compares to spend all the time they did, emphasizing them was a bit insulting.

You say that the competition entries come to about 4.5K, which seems to be a pretty reasonable figure. The main prizes - for each of the freestyle competitions - are sponsored by Dance Holidays. The rest of the prizes don't really amount to much. Compare that with the prizes on offer at the Blackpool event - which are also in cash..... Well, they don't really compare!

Having said that. I think that most people enter for the 'fame' rather than the actual prizes, so maybe that's a fair trade-off??

As for the floor. Least said the better. Please find a new venue for next year....

Steve

bigdjiver
7th-May-2003, 07:33 PM
I agree with all the negative comments on the venue. Add that I hate the coloured lights.

Really this is the sort of event that ought to attract television and wider, and richer, sponsorship. People like Marks & Spencer run health based campaigns, and there are dozens of publications based around a healthy lifestyle. There are agencies that specialise in this sort of thing, and will probably work on a percentage basis.

However, going in this direction could well change the character of Ceroc.

Mike
8th-May-2003, 01:25 PM
I must say I had a fantastic day/night watching this event, The standards is just getting higher! The Team event was better than ever with the Showcase TOTALLY amazing, not sure why this isn’t billed as the top event. I thought the Open also took the freestyle to a new level.

Not much has been said about the results. Though C & J should have won the Showcase. Looking at the judging criteria I thought C&J won at least 4 out of the 6.…From the Ceroc Website : Points will be awarded for style, musical interpretation, innovative choreography, quality of dancing, synchronisation of dancers and entertainment value. Thought the Open was closer.. Again I really enjoyed Ash’s showcase but I think the competition was much stronger in this event compared to Blackpool.


For the open I did enjoy the individual styles of Ben & Hollie / Amir & Lilly. C & J look a little drained after the Showcase but managed to keep smiling!…I think Rachel mentioned this in another thread…C&J just have that something extra that puts them above the rest consistently! Can anybody explain what that is? They just seem to win/place sooo often.


From The Ceroc Judging Criteria/Rules for the Open

The dance must be recognisable as a modern jive like Ceroc. (Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, 50s style Rock 'n' Roll, Ballroom Jive etc are not modern jives and therefore are not permitted)

Points will be awarded for style, musical interpretation, synchronisation of dancers, quality of dancing as well as the variety and complexity of moves.

Looking at the above I possibly C&J won on average, but only just. Was B&H A&L disadvantaged looking ar the section that discusses (recognizable as modern jive)

Does anybody have a view on this?

Mike

DavidB
8th-May-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Mike
The dance must be recognisable as a modern jive like Ceroc. (Lindy Hop, Jitterbug, West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, 50s style Rock 'n' Roll, Ballroom Jive etc are not modern jives and therefore are not permitted)
{snip}
Looking at the above I possibly C&J won on average, but only just. Was B&H A&L disadvantaged looking ar the section that discusses (recognizable as modern jive)Both Amir & Lily and Ben & Hollie were doing Modern Jive (as I would define by the timing, the lead & follow, and the basic movement.) But they were definitely not doing it in the way that Ceroc teaches it, or the way that any Ceroc teacher dances it.

As I understand it, the judges were told to reward complexity of moves more as the level increased for Intermediate to Open. This tends to disadvantage any couple who emphasise interpretation of the music - they usually do simpler moves that give more scope for improvisation.

Clayton and Janine probably had the best balance of complexity of moves vs musical interpretation for this competition, and dererved their win.

David

Bill
8th-May-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Jon

And prehaps Ceroc should actually think about giving decent prizes out. After getting through 5 rounds of lucky dip the 3rd prize is a £10 boogie steps voucher how insulting is that. And 1st price was a £25ish voucher thats not even 1 shoe! If you work out before expenses how much Ceroc made that day it comes to approximatly £25k ticket sales and 4.5k competitor entries. And someone said they dont make a profit!As Steve says, some people do it for the 'fame' rather than the money so the cash reward is less important.

We had no idea of what the prize for Double Trouble was until we went on stage and personally no amount of money could replace the joy of having a winner's medal. I'll spend the cash but I'll always have the trophy and the medal. For someone who has never won a national event before ( and might never have the luck to do so again) it means a great deal to have the medal.

I really thought the cheque I had was between the three of us so I was delighted to have it to myself. :D :na:

For those who really travel eg the Aussies who were there in number, I can imagine a cash prize is very important although I would imagine that winning would be more important so it could be added to their dance CV.

Of course the money was a real bonus.........and I wouldn't have refused more :rolleyes: ............... but though it may sound a bit naff or almost sentimental I would have competed without any financial incentive. Just don't ask me to give up my medal :wink: :D

DavidB
8th-May-2003, 05:00 PM
I don't think anyone enters for the prize money. But if there is to be only nominal prizes, then only have a nominal entry fee. I'm not quite sure how Ceroc justify £25 entry for the open, and £20 for the showcase, especially if the main prize comes from the sponsors.

It has always struck me as spending a lot of money for the privilege of giving Ceroc a free cabaret performance.

David

Siobhan (Forum Plant)
9th-May-2003, 10:32 AM
I agree David- maybe they should pay US to perform/enter!

Dreadful Scathe
9th-May-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Siobhan
I agree David- maybe they should pay US to perform/enter!

hmm I think thats a tad facetious :) Don't think that'll happen ...

Grant
9th-May-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
hmm I think thats a tad facetious :) Don't think that'll happen ...
If they paid for the flamenco and tango demonstrations why shouldn't they pay for the best modern jivers?
Or did they make the demonstrators pay as well?:really:

Grant

DavidB
9th-May-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by jiveclone
I do not by any means regard £2 a pint for diet coke as a reasonable price. However unfortunately it is quite common to have to pay that sort of price in venues used by CEROC and other modern jive operators in London and the surrounding counties (Berkshire, Surrey, Hampshire, etc). It could be worse. We went to a Salsa dance last night (not quite sure why - I can't do Salsa!). I ordered a bottle of Budweiser, a diet coke and a pineapple juice, and it came to £14...

Debster
10th-May-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
I don't think anyone enters for the prize money. But if there is to be only nominal prizes, then only have a nominal entry fee. I'm not quite sure how Ceroc justify £25 entry for the open, and £20 for the showcase, especially if the main prize comes from the sponsors.

It has always struck me as spending a lot of money for the privilege of giving Ceroc a free cabaret performance.

David
Nope, didn't ever imagine entering for the prize, or being anywhere near getting one. As luck would have it ... :cool: ...

... but I do think that the showcase and cabaret performances deserve a lot more... having tried both now I have sunk absolute buckets of cash in preparing both of those performances (the entry fee is nothing in comparison). I'm not really complaining, nobody forced me and I really enjoyed it (most of the time) but the prize for those categories is laughable by comparison.

While I'm at it - a few other comments...

Not sure I agree that complexity of moves won the day... H and I relied heavily on musical interpretation, we had very few moves up our sleeves. (Mind you, I still can't quite grasp that we won, let alone why...)

I was happy with the music all day AND was actually impressed with the toilets that I used.

Hate everything else about the venue... especially £1.50 for water! We are in London - but!

And finally I have to say - I love the trophies!! They chose very attractive and elegant ones compared to some of the other sporting and dancing events I've seen. And the medals. To have them properly engraved is great. Well done Ceroc! I'm thrilled.

Mary
11th-May-2003, 02:36 PM
The venue - yep, it's pants!!! Even with the reduced number of people it's still a bum fight. Blackpool on the other hand was a joy to be at, and more fun ('serious fun' , isn't that meant to be the catchphrase?), and very friendly atmosphere, great floor, sitting, visibility, changing areas etc. etc., less stress, tension, injuries. The Ceroc Champs, now being a world event has outgrown it's venue - time to think bigger and better perhaps, not expensive cheapness.

Whingeing aside though well done to all the judges and DJ and the rest of the staff for working such a long and exhausting day - it's seriously hard work - well done. I actually had a great, if tiring, day as I was pleased with our result and had lots of support from our friends and fellow competitors. Dancers are a great bunch of people, generally. :cheers:

Divissima
12th-May-2003, 08:39 AM
Mary - are you Mary of Greg and Mary?? If so, big congratulations on your result!! I can't wait for the video to get a proper look at you guys :wink:

DavidY
17th-May-2003, 09:30 AM
Hmmm .... "Forum Etiquette" Dilemma: I've just posted on another thread to say that the Ceroc Champs website has (possibly a tad belatedly) been updated with results at www.cerocchamps.com/results.php (http://www.cerocchamps.com/results.php)
(and also some photos) - but then I notice there's a thread in this forum with a very similar title. Do I put the same post on both threads? Is this allowed??:confused:

David

DavidB
17th-May-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by DavidY
Do I put the same post on both threads? Is this allowed?? You should know better. It is bad enough having one post that is relevant to the original thread, but 2!!!!

Emma
17th-May-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
It is bad enough having one post that is relevant to the original thread, but 2!!!! :rofl: