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TiggsTours
14th-September-2006, 04:41 PM
I've wondered this for a while now, it seems that every time I, or anyone else, dares to mention the dreaded "lindy" word on this forum, we get leapt upon by the anti-swing movement damning us to hell!

I've never once said that lindy is better than MJ, or swing music is better than latin, or lindy is superior to WCS or anything of the sort, all I've ever said is that I prefer it! If someone told me that they prefer salsa, I wouldn't immediately read that as them saying salsa is better than lindy, just that their taste angles more towards the latin dances than the swing dances, so why do we lindy dancers get treated like we think we holier than thou for daring to utter the words "I like to swing"?

jacksondonut
14th-September-2006, 04:49 PM
I for one have nothing against Lindy, I think it's fab... the only reason I had to give it up was for the sake of my poor old knees... :sad: I just found WCS was a gentler option for me.. :D

I get a lot of pleasure out of watching all the different styles in action, and Lindy is by far the most fun to watch... :flower: I would still be doing it now if I could.. :sad:

:cheers:

TheTramp
14th-September-2006, 04:50 PM
Nothing particularly...

But, when I did think about learning some lindy, about 5 years ago, the thing that put me off straight away, was the looking down attitude of some (a lot of?) lindy dancers about MJ. Even if that's where they first started dancing.

Even the ones that were particularly bad at lindy too!

Guess that first impressions do stay with you.

TiggsTours
14th-September-2006, 04:55 PM
Nothing particularly...

But, when I did think about learning some lindy, about 5 years ago, the thing that put me off straight away, was the looking down attitude of some (a lot of?) lindy dancers about MJ. Even if that's where they first started dancing.

Even the ones that were particularly bad at lindy too!

Guess that first impressions do stay with you.

You should try again then, I admit I felt the same way for years, but attitudes have changed, now lindy has started to draw on MJ influences, and if you speak to any of the good lindy teachers, they nearly all started in MJ, and still think alot of it, alot of them still even do it!

straycat
14th-September-2006, 05:00 PM
I think that certain Lindy people don't help our cause by damning MJ (ironically, the ones I can think of who do this tend to people who got their start from Ceroc, so it seems a tad ungrateful.)

I love Lindy. I find it the most fulfilling, exciting and versatile dance form I've ever tried. It did take me a while (years) to get into it though - it certainly doesn't offer the 'instant' fulfilment that MJ does. And I have to confess - I absolutely hated going from a dance form I could do well, to one where I was clueless :( - I think a lot of people suffer from that one.

I think that dance arrogance (in this case the 'my dance is the best' syndrome) is to be found to some degree in all dance forms I've tried... not just in MJ or Lindy. The 'lindy-bashing' thing is just one of the many manifestations of that, I feel.

mikeyr
14th-September-2006, 05:05 PM
I am most probably more known as a Latin style dancer, but I like Swing music almost as much, I have tried to work on a smooth Lindy slide technique for my blues dancing and hopefully will one day get around to learning Lindy properly. :D

clevedonboy
14th-September-2006, 05:14 PM
now lindy has started to draw on MJ influences,

Do they tell the followers to step back on the left then? :devil:

I've posted somewhere before on this topic. The only problems I've come across with my preference for Lindy outside of the forum has come from two groups within MJ - The Andy McGregors (who thinks that my Lindy has ruined my MJ), I suspect he's just always looking for a chance for a wind up. On the forum most of the Lindy Bashing falls into this category

Then there's the "experienced" Lerocer who has heard "stuff" about Lindy - you have to stick your bum out, they complain that it's not "elegant", you have to wear Black & Whites and Braces etc etc etc. In reality I don't believe these people know what it's like at all. They feel threatened for some reason and say these things it seems to cover their own fears that people might realise that they aren't really all that good at dancing.

Having said that there's a particular local MJ venue where we are treated with great respect, lots of people take an interest in what we do and the DJs play stuff for us to dance to - so :respect: to those accept our choice with good grace

Lory
14th-September-2006, 05:28 PM
I tried Lindy a couple of times a while back because I wanted to try a dance that had more foot work and musical interpretation (and Lindy's got a lot:waycool: ).

I enjoyed the lessons but i'm afraid my experience of a lot of the leaders, was to comment in derogatory terms, hmm.. your a 'cerocer' aren't you? :sick: :rolleyes: Like, you haven't washed for a week, have you?:sick: :rolleyes:

And I can also recall meeting the biggest hotshot of all times whilst doing Lindy.:eek:

Here's what I had to say about it at the time (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=67)

MartinHarper
14th-September-2006, 05:44 PM
I've not noticed the forum being anti-Lindy, in the last year or so. Did you have anything in particular in mind?


when I did think about learning some lindy, about 5 years ago, the thing that put me off straight away, was the looking down attitude of some (a lot of?) lindy dancers about MJ.

Odd. I dance with lots of MJ dancers, and some of them dislike Lindy. I dance with lots of Lindy dancers, and some of them dislike MJ. All this has no impact on my enjoyment of those dances, any more than when I dance with people who voted Tory, or believe in ghosts.

JonD
14th-September-2006, 05:47 PM
I danced a bit of Lindy a few years ago - I did a fair number of workshops with Graeme and Ann and thoroughly enjoyed it. It's a fun, expressive dance and I like swing music. One of the best freestyle dances I've ever had the pleasure to witness was a French guy at Rhythm Riot who was just incredible - Lindy, Balboa, Shag, Boogie Woogie all in the same track with 4 different followers jumping in and out at random intervals. Boy, that guy was good - stylish, smooth, musical, controlled, amazing lead!

I'd agree with Trampy that there is a section of the Lindy community that looks "down" on MJ and, before I got serious about AT, I was even told that I should switch to Lindy because it was a "proper dance". Equally, there is a section of the MJ community that seems to deride Lindy dancers for equally spurious reasons. (Oh, and there's a section of the AT community who look down on everyone else in the world, and another in the ballroom community and another in Salsa - there'll be pompous people in every style). "Knocking" another dance style says more about the "knocker" than the style.

Good dancing is good dancing. Different styles appeal to different people (the only reason my Salsa remains "agricultural" is because the music bores me: I don't want to put time into it despite having a dance partner who is a very good Salsa dancer). It's good to hear that there are signs that attitudes are changing in the Lindy community and I hope they change in the MJ community but I doubt there'll be a significant shift. Some people tend to be elitist about their passions - it makes them feel superior if they can "knock" someone else. (Strangely, these folk seem to be the ones who measure their skill by being able to perform a reverse sacada on toast or lindy whip with 99 flake or triple upside down chutney pretzel without being aware that the music has stopped and their partner is yawning - but that's a bit off topic).

Feelingpink
14th-September-2006, 06:12 PM
...

Strangely, these folk seem to be the ones who measure their skill by being able to perform a reverse sacada on toast or lindy whip with 99 flake or triple upside down chutney pretzel without being aware that the music has stopped and their partner is yawning - but that's a bit off topic.Are you sure you're not pregnant? :what:

JonD
14th-September-2006, 06:27 PM
Are you sure you're not pregnant?
I'll sue Marie Stopes if I am!

I was a bit peckish when I was writing that post

El Salsero Gringo
14th-September-2006, 07:23 PM
You should try again then, I admit I felt the same way for years, but attitudes have changed, now lindy has started to draw on MJ influences, and if you speak to any of the good lindy teachers, they nearly all started in MJ, and still think alot of it, alot of them still even do it!Two Lindy teachers on the same night both (independently) telling me that they started with MJ but gave it up when they realised it wasn't a proper dance and moved to Lindy because it was so much better - doesn't go down too well...

I tried it for a few months. Ultimately what put me off was the the music that was played in the freestyle session after the class didn't make me want to get up and dance.

The other venue I tried was exceptionally unfriendly to beginners, especially those not in two-tones, zoot suits, or braces.

Andreas
14th-September-2006, 07:49 PM
Nothing particularly...

But, when I did think about learning some lindy, about 5 years ago, the thing that put me off straight away, was the looking down attitude of some (a lot of?) lindy dancers about MJ. Even if that's where they first started dancing.

Even the ones that were particularly bad at lindy too!

Guess that first impressions do stay with you.

That is sadly quite true for most if not all other styles. Ceroc/MJ just isn't cool, full stop. But, what I have learnt in NZ was that you can actually gain acceptance for MJ by being able to also do their respective style to a degree that they respect. We 'introduced' Ceroc to the biggest ballroom school in auckland by simply attending their dance parties and dance the various ballroom styles but also, when applicable, Ceroc. And after less than a year they actually made a deal with Ceroc City to provide class vouchers to their respective studios. Obviously it is a bit sad that they need to be impressed to give things a chance but if we are honest, we are all the same. ;)

As for Lindy, I have to admit that this is so far the only dance style that my arrogance has stopped me from learning properly. After having some great private lessons with Rob Bloom in NZ, we went to a class about 4 years ago and decided that the class level was too slow. So we stupidly actually stopped Lindy alltogether and I could bite myself for it. Will need to make up for it at some point and also brush up on other Swing styles like Balboa and Shag etc.. :tears: :blush:

David Bailey
14th-September-2006, 08:20 PM
I think that certain Lindy people don't help our cause by damning MJ (ironically, the ones I can think of who do this tend to people who got their start from Ceroc, so it seems a tad ungrateful.)
...
I think that dance arrogance (in this case the 'my dance is the best' syndrome) is to be found to some degree in all dance forms I've tried... not just in MJ or Lindy. The 'lindy-bashing' thing is just one of the many manifestations of that, I feel.
Totally agree. It's a sign of dancer pettiness and immaturity to slag of other partner dance forms (well, except merengue. And bachata, of course. They're both pants.).

Good dancing is difficult - in any discipline. You can look dumb in any dance form; I speak from experience here.

Lindy-ers (and snooty salseros, tango freaks, WCS-ers, etc.) who look down on MJ are probably not well-rounded dancers - MJ has its own challenges, in terms of musical interpretation and improvisation, and is just as difficult to do well as any dance form.

clevedonboy
14th-September-2006, 08:35 PM
I tried it for a few months. Ultimately what put me off was the the music that was played in the freestyle session after the class didn't make me want to get up and dance.



If you don't like swing Lindy ain't the thing



The other venue I tried was exceptionally unfriendly to beginners, especially those not in two-tones, zoot suits, or braces.

I've never seen a zoot suit nor braces worn to a class (sure some love to dress up at the drop of a trilby) - I hope nobody gets the impression that you have to dress up just to go to a class

straycat
14th-September-2006, 08:45 PM
If you don't like swing Lindy ain't the thing


As with any kind of music, there's great swing, cr4p swing, and anything in between. The first regular Lindy venue I tried favoured the latter. Didn't stay long :(

Luckily most places I've been since have been pretty good - but not finding the music inspiring doesn't necessarily mean not liking swing music...

Minnie M
14th-September-2006, 08:48 PM
As with any kind of music, there's great swing, cr4p swing, and anything in between. The first regular Lindy venue I tried favoured the latter. Didn't stay long :(

Luckily most places I've been since have been pretty good - but not finding the music inspiring doesn't necessarily mean not liking swing music...
One of the best new swing DJ's around is Gary Boone :respect: the master IMO is still big Ron (Ronny Slide) :respect: :worthy:

(from ESG post below)
obscure jazz tracks from the 1920's = scratchy tracks :sick:
I hate that old boring jazz stuff :sad:

El Salsero Gringo
14th-September-2006, 08:48 PM
If you don't like swing Lindy ain't the thing



I've never seen a zoot suit nor braces worn to a class (sure some love to dress up at the drop of a trilby) - I hope nobody gets the impression that you have to dress up just to go to a classI like quite a lot of swing - the accessible stuff you're more likely to get at a Ceroc freestyle. At this class however I had the impression however that the DJ (who was also the teacher) had a hobby to dig up old wax cylinders of obscure jazz tracks from the 1920's and play them for people to dance to. If I said that the melody was sometimes totally obscured by the crackle and hiss of the authentic recording, I would be exaggerating only slightly. That's fair enough, I suppose, a lot of people liked the music - the freestyle was popular with a lot of skilled Lindy Hoppers. It just didn't suit my taste.

Lynn
14th-September-2006, 09:54 PM
I gave Lindy a go for a few months (there was a weekly free class 10 mins from where I live). My main reason for stopping was being kept awake at night by pain in my knees. I know, I probably wasn't doing it right - but we had no experienced teachers to show me how to do it right. We occasionally had visiting teachers or dancers and I did encounter a 'snobby' attitude to MJ (but its not too bad because they consider than by coming to a lindy class you have seen the error of your ways and are learning a 'proper' dance). But you get that in every dance style.

I haven't noticed any particular 'anti-lindy' vibe on this forum though - a few people have shared negative experiences they have had, but this has also been the case with other dances too.

clevedonboy
14th-September-2006, 11:26 PM
I like quite a lot of swing - the accessible stuff you're more likely to get at a Ceroc freestyle. At this class however I had the impression however that the DJ (who was also the teacher) had a hobby to dig up old wax cylinders of obscure jazz tracks from the 1920's and play them for people to dance to. If I said that the melody was sometimes totally obscured by the crackle and hiss of the authentic recording, I would be exaggerating only slightly. That's fair enough, I suppose, a lot of people liked the music - the freestyle was popular with a lot of skilled Lindy Hoppers. It just didn't suit my taste.


The swing I'd play for a MJ do is very different from what I'd play for a Lindy crowd. Most Lindy dancers will accept a far lower quality of sound in exchange for higher interest factor - there are no good quality (by modern standards) of great tracks like Minor Swing by Django Reinhardt - but you learn to love them anyway. If you get bitten by the music then Lindy does make far more sense. BUT you can still enjoy swing within the MJ scene - you'll just get tired quicker :wink:

El Salsero Gringo
15th-September-2006, 12:08 AM
The swing I'd play for a MJ do is very different from what I'd play for a Lindy crowd. Most Lindy dancers will accept a far lower quality of sound in exchange for higher interest factor - there are no good quality (by modern standards) of great tracks like Minor Swing by Django Reinhardt - but you learn to love them anyway. If you get bitten by the music then Lindy does make far more sense. BUT you can still enjoy swing within the MJ scene - you'll just get tired quicker :wink:I came to realise I was actually at the Jango of the Lindy world....

Mr Cool
15th-September-2006, 12:37 AM
[QUOTE=El Salsero Gringo;280225]Two Lindy teachers on the same night both (independently) telling me that they started with MJ but gave it up when they realised it wasn't a proper dance and moved to Lindy because it was so much better - doesn't go down too well...

I love lindy :yeah: (without the Hop::( )

Smooth swing all the way for me. I love MJ as well this dance embraces all the others, MJ allows so much and is a very proper dance with massive potential people tailor it to suit their needs. The very best lindy dancers have all done some MJ the ones who haven't tend to be less smooth and polished. Many MJ ladies can follow a Hollywood Whip as good or better than many lindy ladies at the end of the day good dancing of whatever style is serious dancing. :cheers: I love good swing music :clap: and positively hate boring Jazz music .:(

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

Andy McGregor
15th-September-2006, 01:15 AM
I've posted somewhere before on this topic. The only problems I've come across with my preference for Lindy outside of the forum has come from two groups within MJ - The Andy McGregors (who thinks that my Lindy has ruined my MJ), I suspect he's just always looking for a chance for a wind up. On the forum most of the Lindy Bashing falls into this category I'm up here in heaven and I can't believe the rubbish that is said about Lindy Hop on this thread.

Lindy Hop is a genuine dance, so is Modern Jive. The problem comes when people try to do both at the same time. I'm going to say this twice, they are two different dances. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT DANCES.

Nobody says, "I'm going to do a waltz in the style of a quickstep or a tango in the style of a cha cha cha. But some Lindy Hoppers, and this includes Clevedonboy, do their MJ in the style of Lindy Hop - this means they try to introduce Lindy footwork into their Modern Jive. Why? :confused: Did I mention they are TWO DIFFERENT DANCES?

On the subject of Lindy Hoppers. The only thing about them that makes me angry is that I get them turning up to my MJ dances and complaining that I don't play any music they can Lindy Hop to. My answer is that they've made a mistake. They come to the wrong dance, I run Modern Jive dances. Do people turn up to AT dances and complain that they don't play enough waltzes? No they don't, because they recognise that they are TWO DIFFERENT DANCES.

And, because they are two different dances I think it was misguided of Tiggs Tours raise the issue here :confused: In my experience of the Forum there has been very little knocking of Lindy Hop. The majority of discussion has been about MJ. That's because this is a Ceroc Forum, it discusses Ceroc which is a brand of MJ. If people want to discuss Lindy Hop they should visit a Lindy Hop forum because MJ and Lindy Hop ARE TWO DIFFERENT DANCES.

Can I do Lindy Hop? Yes I can - badly. I can also do waltz, quicktep, cha cha cha, salsa, west coast swing, tango, foxtrot, etc, etc. They are all different dances. I do them appropriately. I am not a Lindy Hopper or a Modern Jiver, quickstepper, foxtrotter or any other kind of dancer that needs to be categorised and applauded, derided or analysed. Do Foxtrotters look down on waltzers? The original question is rubbish and I'm amazed it was asked.

Andy

p.s. Am I back. No. But I will return once in a while like this occasion when the forum has started to get too far up itself and this is one of those times. Come on Tiggs Tours, join a Lindy Hop forum if you want to talk about that dance.

El Salsero Gringo
15th-September-2006, 01:20 AM
I'm up here in heaven and I can't believe the rubbish that is said ... on this thread.How I've missed you
p.s. Am I back. No.:tears:
But I will return once in a while like this occasion when the forum has started to get too far up itselfA bit like King Arthur you mean?

MartinHarper
15th-September-2006, 01:52 AM
It's a sign of dancer pettiness and immaturity to slag off other partner dance forms...

I'd like to agree with this. Regretfully, I can recall slagging off WCS quite recently, so I'd feel a little hypocritical. Salsa mafia memorably commented that Lindy was derived in part from dances created by blacks to mock the dance stylings of whites. I like to think that poking fun at other dancers is an important part of my dance heritage. It's a good excuse, anyway.


MJ has its own challenges, in terms of musical interpretation and improvisation...

I'm not sure quite what you mean here. There are other dances that are challenging in terms of interpretation and improvisation (eg Lindy, since it's relevant to this thread). Are you saying something about the different way musicality is expressed in different dances? I wonder if you could expand on this point?


(MJ) is just as difficult to do well as any dance form.

I think Lindy culture makes it easier to learn Lindy well, though I guess that is partly because of what I consider makes for good dancing.

----
Daring to reply to Andy, first time in a while.


Lindy Hop is a genuine dance, so is Modern Jive. The problem comes when people try to do both at the same time.

What problems does this cause?

straycat
15th-September-2006, 08:45 AM
Lindy Hop is a genuine dance, so is Modern Jive. The problem comes when people try to do both at the same time. I'm going to say this twice, they are two different dances. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT DANCES.

I don't think I saw that disputed anywhere on this thread... On the other hand, the two can co-exist quite nicely. Narrowing the problem down - where it can often not work as a mixture, is when people are throwing into an MJ dance badly-timed triple-steps, or all the skippy stuff the some wrongly assume is a lcore Lindy characteristic. Where it can work is if you bring in some of the more fundemental connection principles. MJ basically is a blank canvas into which you can blend stuff from lots of dances, if you do it right. Lindy being one of 'em.



On the subject of Lindy Hoppers. The only thing about them that makes me angry is that I get them turning up to my MJ dances and complaining that I don't play any music they can Lindy Hop to.

No arguments here - that's a fairly self-centered view. I'll quite often put in a request for swing music at a modern jive venue, but I'm not going to complain if the DJ isn't up for it.



p.s. Am I back. No. But I will return once in a while like this occasion when the forum has started to get too far up itself and this is one of those times. Come on Tiggs Tours, join a Lindy Hop forum if you want to talk about that dance.

Welcome (almost) back :)

This is actually the Land of 1000 dances area.


Sample and discuss dances beyond Ceroc and Modern Jive... Tango, Salsa, West Coast Swing, Lindy, Ballroom, Ceilidh, Gum boot dancing, Line dancing, Morris dancing, etc...

It even mentions Lindy in the description. Tiggs wants to discuss Lindy? Seems like a good place for it. If she wants to discuss the common jivers' perception of Lindy, I'm not sure I can think of a better forum for it.

Stray

clevedonboy
15th-September-2006, 09:20 AM
I came to realise I was actually at the Jango of the Lindy world....

that would be DJango then :wink:

Andy McGregor
15th-September-2006, 09:35 AM
What problems does this cause?
The problem arises when the guy leads MJ, girl attempts to do Lindy Hop footwork and timing. And, of course the guy does Lindy Hop styling/footwork and the girl/follower hasn't a clue what's going on and really doesn't enjoy the whole dance experience. Get a grip, Modern Jive has timing, it has footwork. So does Lindy Hop - they're different timings and footwork otherwise they'd be the same dance.

The other problem I have is one of doing mixed dances on the same dance floor. If everyone is doing pretty much the same dance it makes floorcraft easier. You can predict, to a greater or lesser extent, where the couples around you are going to go next if they're doing the same dance as you are. If they're doing a different dance this is more difficult - especially with a big, expansive dance like some people make Lindy Hop. At ballroom classes they make sure everyone is doing the same dance by announcing "take your partners for the tango/foxtrot/waltz/etc". This means everyone is doing the same dance and going the same way on the floor.


It even mentions Lindy in the description. Tiggs wants to discuss Lindy? Seems like a good place for it. If she wants to discuss the common jivers' perception of Lindy, I'm not sure I can think of a better forum for it. Quite right. Nothing against discussing Lindy Hop - although I still think a Lindy Hop forum would be a better place for it. I suppose what I am commenting on discussing a problem that nobody else can identify with - none of the contributions to this thread have agreed with the original premise. In case you've forgotten it's "what's everyone got against Lindy?" Not one responder has said they've got anything against Lindy so "everyone" has not got anything against Lindy Hop. The above answer perpetuates this myth by saying "the common jivers' perception of Lindy". Nobody has agreed with the assumption that jivers have a "common" perception. For myself I quite like watching Lindy Hop, would like to do it better but don't like doing MJ next to Lindy Hoppers and don't enjoy doing MJ with a follower who is trying to do Lindy Hop footwork.

I say that if you really want to Lindy Hop go to a Lindy Hop dance. And if you really want to talk about Lindy Hop in depth do it on a Lindy Hop forum. Then come back here to discuss MJ :flower:

clevedonboy
15th-September-2006, 09:45 AM
But some Lindy Hoppers, and this includes Clevedonboy, do their MJ in the style of Lindy Hop - this means they try to introduce Lindy footwork into their Modern Jive. Why? :confused: Did I mention they are TWO DIFFERENT DANCES?



Blimey thats me told off good and proper isn't it?

But um what exactly is the problem? in MJ a guy might go Slow Slow (L R) or he might go Triple Step Triple Step (LRL RLR) he ends up weighted correctly (if there is such a thing).

IF the music has a swing to it then my feet itch to triple step be it in WCS mode or Lindy - I find it a more suitable way to move from point A to point B.

I don't bounce when I triple step so there's no problem there & I don't demand that my follower should triple as well. I don't lead non Lindy hoppers into a Lindy Turn, I don't ask them to get into a set of Charleston steps or break steps like a Suzy Q. I do use some shapes from Lindy & WCS such as a Basket Whip, but I expect somebody somewhere is already teaching that as a MJ move. I might also change the timing of the footfalls to quick quick slow slow if the music has the right feel - but I'll only do that with followers who can cope

I've not had any complaints and women still ask me to dance with them so I can't be that bad :flower:

straycat
15th-September-2006, 10:15 AM
The problem arises when the guy leads MJ, girl attempts to do Lindy Hop footwork and timing. And, of course the guy does Lindy Hop styling/footwork and the girl/follower hasn't a clue what's going on and really doesn't enjoy the whole dance experience.

That's not a problem with Lindy - it's just bad leading.


Get a grip

Noooo! Keep GaG out of this one :tears:


Modern Jive has timing, it has footwork. So does Lindy Hop - they're different timings and footwork otherwise they'd be the same dance.

Actually - there's a fair bit more to it than that. That's the mistake I made about Lindy (one of 'em, anyway) - but I'm digressing - MJ has extremely loose footwork. In Lindy the footwork generally has far more precise timing, but chiefly as a means of keeping your connection with the floor, the music and your partner. It's flexible - it has to be - and you can adapt it to cope with most music. What you're talking about is forcing an unfamiliar footwork pattern on a partner. Which, again, is just bad leading.




The other problem I have is one of doing mixed dances on the same dance floor. If everyone is doing pretty much the same dance it makes floorcraft easier. You can predict, to a greater or lesser extent, where the couples around you are going to go next if they're doing the same dance as you are. If they're doing a different dance this is more difficult - especially with a big, expansive dance like some people make Lindy Hop.

Again - like MJ, Lindy can be adapted to fit the conditions. If you want, you can make it a slotted dance, or a very smooth compact one, make it fit MJ patterns, make it the huge flailing kickfest that certain people use to make it look so cr4p :tears: ... again a good dancer will make it fit, whereas a floorcraft deficient jiver can create just as much mayhem as a floorcraft-deficient lindy dancer.



At ballroom classes they make sure everyone is doing the same dance by announcing "take your partners for the tango/foxtrot/waltz/etc". This means everyone is doing the same dance and going the same way on the floor.

And it can still look like fairground dodgems...
Luckily they usually stay out of the middle when we're doing Lindy during the quicksteps and foxtrots :devil:


Not one responder has said they've got anything against Lindy so "everyone" has not got anything against Lindy Hop.

Except you... so I think Tiggs does have a point :devil:
(OK - so I exaggerate, but it's a good thread with some nice debate. Where's the problem?)



I say that if you really want to Lindy Hop go to a Lindy Hop dance. And if you really want to talk about Lindy Hop in depth do it on a Lindy Hop forum. Then come back here to discuss MJ :flower:

If we didn't have a Land of 1000 Dances thread, I might agree. But come on... one of the things I love about MJ is the sheer diversity of styles that people bring in from dances all the way across the board - ballet, Lindy, WCS, street, latin, tango, hiphop, contemporary, you name it. MJ at its finest is this incredible melting-pot of skillsets and talents, and this is only possible when we stay open to what's outside. Let's keep it that way, hey? :flower:

Andy McGregor
15th-September-2006, 10:55 AM
But um what exactly is the problem? in MJ a guy might go Slow Slow (L R) or he might go Triple Step Triple Step (LRL RLR) he ends up weighted correctly (if there is such a thing).

IF the music has a swing to it then my feet itch to triple step be it in WCS mode or Lindy - I find it a more suitable way to move from point A to point B. Leads doing Lindy footwork is much less of a problem than it is when you're doing MJ and leading a follower who insists on trippling almost every step. Sometimes you want the lady to double time from slow LR to fast LRLR. Difficult if she's insisting on Lindy Footwork and slipping in triple steps that haven't been led. In my MJ I pretty much lead all the followers footwork and am aware of which foot is weighted. When the follower keeps slipping in triples it makes the lead difficult as the lady is doing footwork you haven't led. That's because she's doing a different dance - did I mention that Lindy Hop and MJ are two different dances?



Except you... so I think Tiggs does have a point :devil:
(OK - so I exaggerate, but it's a good thread with some nice debate. Where's the problem?)I've nothing against Lindy Hop at all. As stray said, it's bad Lindy Hop that's the problem on a dance floor. There is a place for everything. And Lindy Hop in its place is great. Consider a horse, everyone likes horses. But you wouldn't want one in your lounge. Bad Lindy done at MJ dances is a bit like that. It's unwelcome. We have a fabulous Lindy dancer called Derek Hearnden who comes to most of our events. He does loads of Lindy and never gets in the way or causes any problems.

straycat
15th-September-2006, 11:05 AM
I've nothing against Lindy Hop at all. As stray said, it's bad Lindy Hop that's the problem on a dance floor. There is a place for everything. And Lindy Hop in its place is great. Consider a horse, everyone likes horses. But you wouldn't want one in your lounge. Bad Lindy done at MJ dances is a bit like that. It's unwelcome. We have a fabulous Lindy dancer called Derek Hearnden who comes to most of our events. He does loads of Lindy and never gets in the way or causes any problems.

So we've established that the problem is bad dancers, rather than bad Lindy Hoppers. OK. What're we arguing about again? :flower:

David Bailey
15th-September-2006, 11:22 AM
I like to think that poking fun at other dancers is an important part of my dance heritage.
:rofl:


I'm not sure quite what you mean here. There are other dances that are challenging in terms of interpretation and improvisation (eg Lindy, since it's relevant to this thread). Are you saying something about the different way musicality is expressed in different dances? I wonder if you could expand on this point?
Weeellll... I think it's that, simply because MJ has a loose tempo / musical requirement compared to other dances, it allows you much more scope.

Some other dances (such as salsa) have very little musicality elements in them - you are very much, as the saying goes, a slave to the rhythm. Even in AT, which is 100% interpretation, there are definite musical rhythms for most AT variants (milongas, vals's, trad AT etc.)

What I was trying to say was that I don't think MJ is really tied to the music so much as most other dances. So you have more rope to hang yourself with.

Andy McGregor
15th-September-2006, 12:52 PM
So we've established that the problem is bad dancers, rather than bad Lindy Hoppers. OK. What're we arguing about again? :flower:My point exactly. Pointless thread :whistle:

straycat
15th-September-2006, 01:00 PM
My point exactly. Pointless thread :whistle:

Oh yeah. That was what we were arguing about. Why is a thread that generates decent debate pointless? It got you back from heaven, after all - some might argue that it was worth it just to have you revisit the forum :devil:

Maybe Tiggs just started it because she misses you and wanted you back for a spell...

Andy McGregor
15th-September-2006, 01:18 PM
Oh yeah. That was what we were arguing about. Why is a thread that generates decent debate pointless? It got you back from heaven, after all - some might argue that it was worth it just to have you revisit the forum :devil:

Maybe Tiggs just started it because she misses you and wanted you back for a spell...The interesting debate is pretty much off topic or saying that the original premise of the thread is wrong.

Get a grip
15th-September-2006, 03:28 PM
Get a grip:

Hmmm.... blimey, I'm nowhere near as verbose as Big Mac. Do you suppose he's being paid by the word? Nice use of the phrase 'Get A Grip' - maybe it'll catch on...

straycat
15th-September-2006, 03:59 PM
The interesting debate is pretty much off topic or saying that the original premise of the thread is wrong.

No - there was interesting debate before you got involved :devil: :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
15th-September-2006, 04:46 PM
Consider a horseOnly if it's spherical. (please please please...?)
At ballroom classes they make sure everyone is doing the same dance by announcing "take your partners for the tango/foxtrot/waltz/etc". This means everyone is doing the same dance and going the same way on the floor.My inside information is that most ballroom dancers can tell from the music. Dancing a Tango to a waltz is going to be challenging, Even for DavidJames. (Especially for DavidJames.)
In case you've forgotten it's "what's everyone got against Lindy?" Not one responder has said they've got anything against Lindy so "everyone" has not got anything against Lindy Hop.I can, if it will help? (Brian: "You are all individuals!" - crowd: "Yes, we are all individuals!" - lone voice: "er, I'm not!")

David Bailey
15th-September-2006, 05:00 PM
Dancing a Tango to a waltz is going to be challenging, Even for DavidJames. (Especially for DavidJames.)
:yeah: I can't even dance a tango to a tango. :sad:

El Salsero Gringo
15th-September-2006, 05:11 PM
:yeah: I can't even dance a tango to a tango. :sad:I gather that's down to a dentistry problem though - you've still got your own teeth.

Andreas
15th-September-2006, 06:46 PM
Dancing a Tango to a waltz is going to be challenging, Even for DavidJames. (Especially for DavidJames.)

If we step away from the ballroom style Tango then I am sure DJ can actually do the task. There is Vals (also Tango-Waltz), AT to Waltz rhythms. ;)

El Salsero Gringo
15th-September-2006, 06:50 PM
If we step away from the ballroom style Tango then I am sure DJ can actually do the task. There is Vals (also Tango-Waltz), AT to Waltz rhythms. ;)Look, never let the facts get in the way of having a quick pop at DJ. (Right, DJ?)

Andreas
15th-September-2006, 07:41 PM
Look, never let the facts get in the way of having a quick pop at DJ. (Right, DJ?)

:rofl: I am sure DJ would actually suffer from severe deprivation if nobody would pull his chain for a while. :D

MartinHarper
15th-September-2006, 10:16 PM
I do use some shapes from Lindy & WCS such as a Basket Whip, but I expect somebody somewhere is already teaching that as a MJ move.

Aye, under the heading of "Octopull", if I recall correctly.


The problem arises when ... the guy does Lindy Hop styling/footwork (within MJ) and the girl/follower hasn't a clue what's going on and really doesn't enjoy the whole dance experience.

This is more of a problem with dancing the wrong thing with the wrong person that something inherently wrong with mixing MJ and Lindy. It is an easy mistake to make.


When you're doing MJ and leading a follower who insists on trippling almost every step. Sometimes you want the lady to double time from slow LR to fast LRLR. Difficult if she's insisting on Lindy Footwork and slipping in triple steps that haven't been led.

Hmm. Lindy footwork is meant to be lead/follow, and "fast LRLR" is a fairly common piece of Lindy footwork (10 beat lindy circles, for example). I'm curious as to why you think your partner isn't following the footwork that you're leading. Is she aware of your lead but choosing to ignore it?

Andy McGregor
16th-September-2006, 12:46 AM
Hmm. Lindy footwork is meant to be lead/follow, and "fast LRLR" is a fairly common piece of Lindy footwork (10 beat lindy circles, for example). I'm curious as to why you think your partner isn't following the footwork that you're leading. Is she aware of your lead but choosing to ignore it?I only have this problem with followers who triple their forward steps (I do not lead those triples, they just seem to do them :confused: ). And those people are usually MJers who also Lindy Hop or MJers who learnt to go back on the left and have to put in a quick shuffle to go back on the right foot in the first move :innocent:

I've received some nasty negative rep for my comments on here so I think I'll summarise what I've said before I disappear back onto my cloud. I have no problem with Lindy Hop, it's a dance and a very worthy one. And I don't think any modern jivers have a problem with Lindy Hop. I do have a problem with bad dancers who take up too much space or don't follow my lead.

Now I'm going back to my cloud where it's nice and safe from those nasty, nasty, rep comments. I think I've been put in my place - and I now realise that this is not my place :tears:

straycat
16th-September-2006, 01:13 AM
Now I'm going back to my cloud where it's nice and safe from those nasty, nasty, rep comments. I think I've been put in my place - and I now realise that this is not my place :tears:

Oh come ON!!! (not you, Andy)
Agree with what Andy's saying or not (I disagree with a fair bit) - negrepping someone for reasonably and logically stating an honest opinion is plain pathetic. If you take issue with it, argue it out. Calmly and sensibly. :angry: :angry:

David Bailey
16th-September-2006, 12:09 PM
Now I'm going back to my cloud where it's nice and safe from those nasty, nasty, rep comments. I think I've been put in my place - and I now realise that this is not my place :tears:
:eek: Come baaaaaaccckkk.... :flower:

straycat
16th-September-2006, 02:59 PM
Oooh - negrepped for my last comment too. Good way to prove my point :grin:

MartinHarper
16th-September-2006, 04:28 PM
I know how much Andy loves footwork discussions, so...


I only have this problem with followers who triple their forward steps (I do not lead those triples, they just seem to do them :confused: ).

I rarely lead triples in MJ, but then I rarely lead singles (ie step-hold) either. I normally end up just leading (eg) "move forward onto your right foot", in a way that's compatible with both. Kudos to you if you're always specifically leading one or the other. I'd find that awkward and difficult.

Of course, I do have to lead the difference between singles (or triples) and double steps, because doubles put my partner on a different foot to a triple. I've not found it any easier (or harder) to do that on followers who default to Lindy-ish footwork. I guess I sometimes need to lead the double slightly earlier in that case.

Question to other leads: do you share Andy's experience with triple-stepping MJers being hard to lead into specific footwork?


Those people are usually MJers who also Lindy Hop or MJers who learnt to go back on the left and have to put in a quick shuffle to go back on the right foot in the first move.

I agree that Lindy (and some other dances) do influence MJ in a way that goes against the R-L-R-L marching style for followers that I recall Andy promoting, and I've seen taught in Jango workshops. However, that only happens because the various MJ organisers have failed to agree on a standard follower footwork. If MJ had standard follower footwork, even if it was only introduced in intermediate classes in a very relaxed way, then the dance would be much more resistant to "corruption" from Lindy and suchlike.

Currently, I find it hard to agree that "MJ has footwork" when different organisers say such radically different things on the subject.

TiggsTours
20th-September-2006, 10:39 AM
Two Lindy teachers on the same night both (independently) telling me that they started with MJ but gave it up when they realised it wasn't a proper dance and moved to Lindy because it was so much better - doesn't go down too well...

I tried it for a few months. Ultimately what put me off was the the music that was played in the freestyle session after the class didn't make me want to get up and dance.

The other venue I tried was exceptionally unfriendly to beginners, especially those not in two-tones, zoot suits, or braces.
Fair enough. Sadly, there are people in the swing world who have this attitude, but I'm afraid there are far more people in the MJ world who have this attitude towards lindy than the other way round.

One of the best new swing DJ's around is Gary Boone :respect: the master IMO is still big Ron (Ronny Slide) :respect: :worthy:

(from ESG post below)
obscure jazz tracks from the 1920's = scratchy tracks :sick:
I hate that old boring jazz stuff :sad:
Absolutely :yeah: He plays loads of hip hop too, fantastic to dance lindy too, as the musical make up is exactly the same as swing. (That's why it has the word "hop" in the name!)

I'm up here in heaven and I can't believe the rubbish that is said about Lindy Hop on this thread.

Lindy Hop is a genuine dance, so is Modern Jive. The problem comes when people try to do both at the same time. I'm going to say this twice, they are two different dances. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT DANCES.

Nobody says, "I'm going to do a waltz in the style of a quickstep or a tango in the style of a cha cha cha. But some Lindy Hoppers, and this includes Clevedonboy, do their MJ in the style of Lindy Hop - this means they try to introduce Lindy footwork into their Modern Jive. Why? :confused: Did I mention they are TWO DIFFERENT DANCES?

On the subject of Lindy Hoppers. The only thing about them that makes me angry is that I get them turning up to my MJ dances and complaining that I don't play any music they can Lindy Hop to. My answer is that they've made a mistake. They come to the wrong dance, I run Modern Jive dances. Do people turn up to AT dances and complain that they don't play enough waltzes? No they don't, because they recognise that they are TWO DIFFERENT DANCES.

And, because they are two different dances I think it was misguided of Tiggs Tours raise the issue here :confused: In my experience of the Forum there has been very little knocking of Lindy Hop. The majority of discussion has been about MJ. That's because this is a Ceroc Forum, it discusses Ceroc which is a brand of MJ. If people want to discuss Lindy Hop they should visit a Lindy Hop forum because MJ and Lindy Hop ARE TWO DIFFERENT DANCES.

Can I do Lindy Hop? Yes I can - badly. I can also do waltz, quicktep, cha cha cha, salsa, west coast swing, tango, foxtrot, etc, etc. They are all different dances. I do them appropriately. I am not a Lindy Hopper or a Modern Jiver, quickstepper, foxtrotter or any other kind of dancer that needs to be categorised and applauded, derided or analysed. Do Foxtrotters look down on waltzers? The original question is rubbish and I'm amazed it was asked.

Andy.
I completely agree with all of this, you can't do MJ in a lindy "style" you do MJ, or you do lindy (or any other style of dance). You can dance MJ to swing music, but that doesn't mean you're doing MJ in a lindy "style".

That said, what exactly is "MJ music"? What I still love about MJ is that it can be danced to any style of music, including swing, so I think that saying the DJ is not playing enough swing for your taste is a valid complaint, same as saying they're not playing enough latin music. However, I wouldn't complain that a DJ wasn't playing enough lindy, or enough salsa, or enough West Coast! I used to complain that there wasn't enough swing played at MJ events, then I realised, if that's what I wanted to spend my whole night dancing to, I needed to learn lindy, so I did. I have to be honest, if there was the same amount of lindy venues around as there are MJ, I wouldn't grace the halls of an MJ event ever again, but there aren't.


p.s. Am I back. No. But I will return once in a while like this occasion when the forum has started to get too far up itself and this is one of those times. Come on Tiggs Tours, join a Lindy Hop forum if you want to talk about that dance.

I'm a member of two lindy forums, they never have discussions like this, they're not big on interesting debates, and they also wouldn't be able to answer the question "Why does the Ceroc Scotland forum have so many people knocking lindy?", so raising this question there would have been pointless.


I've not noticed the forum being anti-Lindy, in the last year or so. Did you have anything in particular in mind?


Some of the comments in this (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9648) thread, in response to my very simple (in a paragraph speaking about a number of dance styles, "Lindy - my favourie!".

El Salsero Gringo
20th-September-2006, 11:47 AM
Fair enough. Sadly, there are people in the swing world who have this attitude, but I'm afraid there are far more people in the MJ world who have this attitude towards lindy than the other way round.Really? There are people dancing Ceroc who have told you they started with Lindy but gave it up "becuse it's not a proper dance"??? I'm astonished.

El Salsero Gringo
20th-September-2006, 11:51 AM
Some of the comments in this (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9648) thread, in response to my very simple (in a paragraph speaking about a number of dance styles, "Lindy - my favourie!".I can't find anything anti-Lindy there - except one throwaway comment from Trampy. And to be honest, that's a pretty good testimonial for a dance :whistle:

TiggsTours
20th-September-2006, 11:59 AM
Really? There are people dancing Ceroc who have told you they started with Lindy but gave it up "becuse it's not a proper dance"??? I'm astonished.
No, but I find there are far more people in the world of MJ who are quick to jump down your throat if you dare to utter the words "I like lindy" than there are the other way round. I guess its that there are people in the world of lindy who look down on MJ as a dance form, I won't argue that, but there are plenty of people in the world of MJ who will look down on you as a person if you say you like lindy, I think that's a far worse attitude to have.

I can't find anything anti-Lindy there - except one throwaway comment from Trampy. And to be honest, that's a pretty good testimonial for a dance :whistle:Trampy's comment was a prime example of this attitude, not looking down on the dance form, looking down on the people who do it. I know it was throwaway, but there are many a true word spoken in jest!

You're right, reading back through the thread, nothing else was really said, it was just a feeling I got from it, I mentioned I like lindy, then loads of other people picked up on it, turning it into an MJ vs Lindy thread, why did that have to happen? If I'd said that salsa was my favourite dance, or WCS, or Tango, would anyone have made any further comment at all? I doubt it.

El Salsero Gringo
20th-September-2006, 12:14 PM
No, but I find there are far more people in the world of MJ who are quick to jump down your throat if you dare to utter the words "I like lindy" than there are the other way round.Maybe you only find them in one place because you're only looking in one place.
You're right, reading back through the thread, nothing else was really saidYou going to apologise to everyone on the forum now, seeing as it appears we don't have a downer on Lindy? (Just on the people who *think* we have a downer on Lindy...)

TheTramp
20th-September-2006, 12:16 PM
Trampy's comment was a prime example of this attitude, not looking down on the dance form, looking down on the people who do it. I know it was throwaway, but there are many a true word spoken in jest!

Sorry. I don't look down on people who do lindy. I was put off by people who do lindy looking down on me.

And it wasn't a throwaway comment. It was my actual experience of starting to learn lindy 5 years ago. Also, just for the record, I wasn't speaking in jest. Just relating my factual experience.

El Salsero Gringo
20th-September-2006, 12:28 PM
Sorry. I don't look down on people who do lindy. I was put off by people who do lindy looking down on me.

And it wasn't a throwaway comment. It was my actual experience of starting to learn lindy 5 years ago. Also, just for the record, I wasn't speaking in jest. Just relating my factual experience.Hmmm. This is what you said: "Nah. It's just that no sane person would want to do that!!"

How has a comment about my mental state (should I decide I'd like to dance the Lindy Hop) got anything to do with your factual experience?

TheTramp
20th-September-2006, 12:31 PM
Oops. Damn. Missed the fact that the 'this' in Tiggs post was actually a link to another thread. I thought that she was talking about this thread.

Sorry....

TiggsTours
20th-September-2006, 12:37 PM
Maybe you only find them in one place because you're only looking in one place.You going to apologise to everyone on the forum now, seeing as it appears we don't have a downer on Lindy? (Just on the people who *think* we have a downer on Lindy...)
No, I have nothing to apologise for. I was simply asking why people have something against lindy, I wasn't criticising anyone for it, just asking why. I was fully prepared to accept that there may be good reason for it, and I do accept that you, Trampy, and a few others have had genuine experiences to make you all feel this way, so I accept your feelings. I'm just saying that I personally have had far more derogatory comments aimed at me by jivers for doing lindy than I have lindy dancers for doing jive. Personal experiences, different for everyone.

Sorry. I don't look down on people who do lindy. I was put off by people who do lindy looking down on me.

And it wasn't a throwaway comment. It was my actual experience of starting to learn lindy 5 years ago. Also, just for the record, I wasn't speaking in jest. Just relating my factual experience.


Hmmm. This is what you said: "Nah. It's just that no sane person would want to do that!!"

How has a comment about my mental state (should I decide I'd like to dance the Lindy Hop) got anything to do with your factual experience?
Yes Trampy, that's the comment that I though ESG was talking about too, and that is the one that I felt that, although (I thought) spoken in jest, was a comment on the people that do lindy, not the dance itself.

El Salsero Gringo
20th-September-2006, 12:38 PM
Oops. Damn. Missed the fact that the 'this' in Tiggs post was actually a link to another thread. I thought that she was talking about this thread.

Sorry....You could have bluffed it and just told me that having met me, you think I'm barking.

TiggsTours
20th-September-2006, 12:39 PM
Oops. Damn. Missed the fact that the 'this' in Tiggs post was actually a link to another thread. I thought that she was talking about this thread.

Sorry....

Apology accepted.

TheTramp
20th-September-2006, 12:40 PM
You could have bluffed it and just told me that having met me, you think I'm barking.

Well, obviously that too! :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
20th-September-2006, 12:58 PM
No, I have nothing to apologise for. I was simply asking why people have something against lindy"Dear Forum members:why do you beat your wives?"

"We don't beat our wives."

"I accept that none of you actually beats your wife. I just want to know why you all beat your wives."

"None of us (with the possible exception of Trampy, who's answered your question in full) beats our wives."

"Yes, I understand that. But I must insist on you telling me why you beat your wives."

"(sigh)...."

straycat
20th-September-2006, 01:11 PM
"Dear Forum members:why do you beat your wives?"

"We don't beat our wives."

"I accept that none of you actually beats your wife. I just want to know why you all beat your wives."

"None of us (with the possible exception of Trampy, who's answered your question in full) beats our wives."

"Yes, I understand that. But I must insist on you telling me why you beat your wives."

"(sigh)...."

From where I'm sitting, it's looking more like:

"Dear Forum members:why do people beat their wives?"

"We don't beat our wives."

"I accept that none of you actually beats your wife. I just want to know why you think other people do."

"None of us (with the possible exception of Trampy, who's wives beat him) beats our wives."

"Yes, I understand that, but we're not just talking about you.."

"I know you aren't but we don't beat our wives! (although we like beating Trampy) "

etc :cool:

El Salsero Gringo
20th-September-2006, 01:14 PM
"I accept that none of you actually beats your wife. I just want to know why you think other people do."Go find some wife-beaters and ask them!

I'm tempted to say it's because Lindy, except when danced really well, looks silly. But so does MJ, too.

Tessalicious
20th-September-2006, 01:18 PM
I don't like Lindy much, it doesn't really do it for me. I don't have any particular problem with people who dance it though (except taxi-dancers that lead it on beginners).

But then again, I don't beat my wife either, so I guess I'm just boring.

straycat
20th-September-2006, 01:27 PM
Go find some wife-beaters and ask them!

They all seem to have run for the hills - apart from the ones who're saying "I don't beat my wives if they're any good, but the useless ones are another matter..."



I'm tempted to say it's because Lindy, except when danced really well, looks silly. But so does MJ, too.
:yeah:
I'd temper that by saying that there's no reason for beginner/intermediate lindy dancers to look silly. Unfortunately, there's a certain style adopted, by too many which, which does. On balance, yes, bad MJ, while bad (obviously), doesn't look as bad as bad Lindy. I think...



But then again, I don't beat my wife either, so I guess I'm just boring.

I don't know... judging by this thread, not beating your wife is rapidly becoming the new In Thing...

Lou
20th-September-2006, 01:36 PM
From where I'm sitting, it's looking more like:

"Dear Forum members:why do people beat their wives?"
But don't forget to call your thread "Why does everyone beat their wives?"*.

*I suspect the answer is "Because they dance Lindy".

BTW... if you're out & about in bristol this weekend, Clevedonboy, save me a dance. I wanna see how much you stick yer bum out. :na:

Clive Long
20th-September-2006, 01:39 PM
I'm tempted to say it's because Lindy, except when danced really well, looks silly. But so does MJ, too.
I have never danced Lindy.

From what I have seen of good Lindy dancers, Lindy looks exciting, fun, athletic and fast. The dancers seem to be enjoying themselves.

From what I have seen of good Lindy dancers, Lindy looks more demanding of the dancer (footwork, good tension) than MJ. So I can understand why a Lindy dancer might "look down" on an MJ dancer - even though, if true, that's a pointless and immature attitude. As a struggling Tango dancer, I acknowledge there will always be MJ dancers who look better dancers than me dancing Tango. Each to their own, que sera, sera, blah, blah.

I would like to have the time to learn Lindy.

As it is, I content myself with letting people down for WCS and Tango lessons at short notice :blush:

Wedge

Will
20th-September-2006, 01:40 PM
Sorry. I don't look down on people who do lindy. I was put off by people who do lindy looking down on me.

And it wasn't a throwaway comment. It was my actual experience of starting to learn lindy 5 years ago. Also, just for the record, I wasn't speaking in jest. Just relating my factual experience.

I have to echo this. I started going along to Lindy Hop classes a few years ago and had much the same experience.

I don't look down on Lindy-Hop as a dance, when done well it can look great. But in my opinion there is institutionalized snobbery within much of the Lindy-Hop crowd against ceroc.

Typical dynamic is :

- walk into lindy venue
- see some faces that you recognise but that you haven't seen for 5 years
- go and say 'hi'
- discusion takes place about when you last met (i.e. ceroc)
- diatribe ensues on how said person has "moved on" to a proper/better dance

Damage done!

There was even this guy who regularly used to turn up to Ceroc in Fulham every Thursday. He had started doing Lindy-Hop also. After the dancing finished we'd all go down the pub and have to listen to him lecturing us on how Lindy-Hop is so superior to Ceroc. Eventually one week I asked him why he kept coming to Ceroc if he thought that it was such rubbish and that Lindy-Hop was so superior. He said that there wasn't any Lindy-Hop on near him on a Thursday. I just felt honoured that he was prepared to slum it with the rest of us!!!

To be honest, I'm not surprised that there now appears to be a bit of a backlash.

(I just hope WCS doesn't go down this road too.)

Will

spindr
20th-September-2006, 01:41 PM
If anyone has anything against Lindy, then it's just small mindedness -- one might theorise that:

1). They all dress funny.
Yes, some Lindy hoppers may eschew the MJ uniform of sweaty black t-shirt and jeans.

2). They all talk funny.
Well, unless they're complete fanatics they probably talk like most dancers rather than: "Swings like a gate, dadio" or "Plant me now and dig me later", etc.

3). They bounce.
Guess what there's a hop in Lindy Hop. But the bounce should be in the knees -- not in the head. Of course, if you only ever see Lindy beginners (or do taster classes) then it's not surprising if they do bounce.

4). They stick their bums out.
So do some MJ'ers -- tho' probably not intentionally :devil:

5). They do dangerous kicky moves.
Well, Lindy beginners may shoe more shoe leather than they should -- but it takes a bit pratice to kick down. Kicky moves may well be more dangerous if you've dropped your MJ followers head down to the floor -- but that's not a fault of the Lindyers.

6). They move about differently.
'tis probably true that they might travel slightly differently on the dancefloor. But then so will a tango dancer.

7). They ask for fast music that you can't MJ to.
No, they ask for fast music that *you* can'y MJ to.

8). They do footwork.
Yes.

9). They do silly pecking head moves.
Sometimes.

10). Jealousy.
It takes some effort to learn.

SpinDr

WittyBird
20th-September-2006, 01:42 PM
As it is, I content myself with letting people down for WCS and Tango lessons at short notice :blush:


Yes Clive Long - The most unreliable person I know :D Still love ya Wedge :love:

David Bailey
20th-September-2006, 02:05 PM
If I'd said that salsa was my favourite dance, or WCS, or Tango, would anyone have made any further comment at all? I doubt it.
You're kidding, right? Did you miss the whole "WCS snooty" threads from a couple of weeks ago?

As for salsa or Tango - I think there's plenty of Tango comments, plenty of them negative (I've done a few myself), at least about the scene and the music and the teaching... Salsa? People will no doubt slag it off for a number of reasons; hell, I'll join in :)

So, the general question is: does Lindy have an "image problem" (zoot suits etc.) amongst the MJ crowd?

clevedonboy
20th-September-2006, 02:06 PM
lots of stuff


Good post that man :respect:

David Bailey
20th-September-2006, 02:09 PM
I don't look down on Lindy-Hop as a dance, when done well it can look great. But in my opinion there is institutionalized snobbery within much of the Lindy-Hop crowd against ceroc.
"institutionalized snobbery" - nice one :respect:

(although I might suggest "institutionalized snootiness" as a better phrase :) )


Typical dynamic is :

- walk into lindy venue
- see some faces that you recognise but that you haven't seen for 5 years
- go and say 'hi'
- discusion takes place about when you last met (i.e. ceroc)
- diatribe ensues on how said person has "moved on" to a proper/better dance

Damage done!
Blimey, that's exactly what it's like at most Tango venues too :eek:

clevedonboy
20th-September-2006, 02:15 PM
But don't forget to call your thread "Why does everyone beat their wives?"*.

*I suspect the answer is "Because they dance Lindy".

BTW... if you're out & about in bristol this weekend, Clevedonboy, save me a dance. I wanna see how much you stick yer bum out. :na:

Aww I don't think I'll be at any MJ events - Live band in Clevedon on Friday (have to support that) & then Baby Clevedonboy is making a flying visit on Saturday & Sunday before returning to his debauched life as a student in Brighton who does the odd gig (he did mention something about the band he plays in supporting The Kooks).

Suffice to say though I stick my bum out just the right amount

Theobromine?

Saxylady
20th-September-2006, 02:21 PM
Suffice to say though I stick my bum out just the right amount


And very nice it looks, too - worth doing Lindy just for that - specially in the reverse-back-Charleston...:nice:

TiggsTours
20th-September-2006, 02:25 PM
"Dear Forum members:why do you beat your wives?"

"We don't beat our wives."

"I accept that none of you actually beats your wife. I just want to know why you all beat your wives."

"None of us (with the possible exception of Trampy, who's answered your question in full) beats our wives."

"Yes, I understand that. But I must insist on you telling me why you beat your wives."

"(sigh)...."

Ahem.....


Two Lindy teachers on the same night both (independently) telling me that they started with MJ but gave it up when they realised it wasn't a proper dance and moved to Lindy because it was so much better - doesn't go down too well...

I tried it for a few months. Ultimately what put me off was the the music that was played in the freestyle session after the class didn't make me want to get up and dance.

The other venue I tried was exceptionally unfriendly to beginners, especially those not in two-tones, zoot suits, or braces.

TiggsTours
20th-September-2006, 02:41 PM
I have to echo this. I started going along to Lindy Hop classes a few years ago and had much the same experience.

I don't look down on Lindy-Hop as a dance, when done well it can look great. But in my opinion there is institutionalized snobbery within much of the Lindy-Hop crowd against ceroc.

Typical dynamic is :

- walk into lindy venue
- see some faces that you recognise but that you haven't seen for 5 years
- go and say 'hi'
- discusion takes place about when you last met (i.e. ceroc)
- diatribe ensues on how said person has "moved on" to a proper/better dance

Damage done!

There was even this guy who regularly used to turn up to Ceroc in Fulham every Thursday. He had started doing Lindy-Hop also. After the dancing finished we'd all go down the pub and have to listen to him lecturing us on how Lindy-Hop is so superior to Ceroc. Eventually one week I asked him why he kept coming to Ceroc if he thought that it was such rubbish and that Lindy-Hop was so superior. He said that there wasn't any Lindy-Hop on near him on a Thursday. I just felt honoured that he was prepared to slum it with the rest of us!!!

To be honest, I'm not surprised that there now appears to be a bit of a backlash.

(I just hope WCS doesn't go down this road too.)

Will

Fair point too, and I have to admit to being slightly guilty of this, but its mainly because, since I got into Lindy, I've found MJ a bit dull. Well, that's not true, I started to find that I was finding MJ a bit dull, and I didn't think there was enough swing played for my taste, so I figured it was time to switch to lindy.

However, if I go out to an MJ night (which does tend to be because there is now lindy on that night) then I still have a damn good night!

I used to think, like everyone, that lindy is really unfriendly, and that I could go to a lindy night and nobody would ask me to dance, then someone pointed out to me, wasn't it like that when I started MJ too? To be honest, yes it was. I didn't get asked to dance really, and certainly not be the good dancers, I had to get out there and do all the asking. Problem is that, as an experienced MJ dancer, I'm used to being asked to dance, and being asked by the good dancers, and for some bizarre reason I felt upset that that didn't happen in lindy venues, when there I was, a beginner who nobody knew. I sas it as lindy snobbery, funny thing is that I know lindy dancers who go to jive events, where nobody knows them, who say they experience exactly the same thing.

David Bailey
20th-September-2006, 02:43 PM
Ahem.....
Yeah, but surely he's answered the question?

That is, he didn't like the attitude of some of the teachers, the music, the friendliness of the scene or the outfits.

Apart from that, he loved it :)

Seriously, that type of critique can be labelled to any dance form - certainly to salsa and Tango, from personal experience. But if someone's honestly tried it, for several months, and honestly decided he didn't like it, what's wrong with that?

Of course, if someone's never tried it and disses it, that's a sign of prejudice. But I dunno if there's more prejudice towards lindy than towards other forms - and certainly there isn't based on the comments in the original thread.

Again, if you want to see some nasty comments towards another dance form, the recent WCS rantage is a good example - and I don't see much of a "What's everyone got against WCS" thread. (Famous last works)

TiggsTours
20th-September-2006, 02:43 PM
You're kidding, right? Did you miss the whole "WCS snooty" threads from a couple of weeks ago?

Yes, I was on holiday. Maybe I feel it only happens with lindy as that's the one I take personally. Perhaps the thread should be called "What have some people got against dance styles that are not MJ, or any other style of dance they personally do not enjoy?"

David Bailey
20th-September-2006, 03:05 PM
Yes, I was on holiday. Maybe I feel it only happens with lindy as that's the one I take personally.
Could be. We're all subjectively biased. Well, except me, I'm wonderful.


Perhaps the thread should be called "What have some people got against dance styles that are not MJ, or any other style of dance they personally do not enjoy?"
Yes - good plan. "Why are dancers prejudiced?" might be interesting...

TheTramp
20th-September-2006, 03:26 PM
Yes - good plan. "Why are dancers prejudiced?" might be interesting...

Along with "Why are dancers cliquey?".... :rolleyes:

David Bailey
20th-September-2006, 03:38 PM
Along with "Why are dancers cliquey?".... :rolleyes:
"Why are people silly" ? :)

TheTramp
20th-September-2006, 03:47 PM
Something in the water? :confused:

El Salsero Gringo
20th-September-2006, 06:03 PM
Ahem.....Those are Lindy dancers who have a downer on Ceroc. Not vice versa. Luckily, I remain one of those kind tolerant Forum folk who takes it all in his stride and doesn't let experiences like that colour me against Lindy, or Lindy dancers, or even Lindy teachers. So what's your point? I still don't beat my wife.

MartinHarper
20th-September-2006, 07:25 PM
diatribe ensues on how said person has "moved on" to a proper/better dance.

Damage done!

People who dance lots of Lindy and not much MJ tend to prefer Lindy to MJ - is this entirely surprising? It would be rather odd if people gave up MJ for Lindy, despite thinking that MJ was better.

Different people want different things out of dancing. Depending on what you want, different dances will appeal. If someone wants to do a lot of different dips and drops, and considers the skill involved in a well executed drop to be the acid test for good dancing, then they'll likely believe that MJ is superior to Lindy. How much of that is snobbishness, and how much of it is having an opinion?

Given that in the past I've been irritated by MJ dancers who dismiss "muggle" dancing (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4670), I guess I should ask that question of myself too.

Martin
20th-September-2006, 07:35 PM
I'm up here in heaven and I can't believe the rubbish that is said about Lindy Hop on this thread.

Lindy Hop is a genuine dance, so is Modern Jive. The problem comes when people try to do both at the same time. I'm going to say this twice, they are two different dances. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT DANCES.

Nobody says, "I'm going to do a waltz in the style of a quickstep or a tango in the style of a cha cha cha. But some Lindy Hoppers, and this includes Clevedonboy, do their MJ in the style of Lindy Hop - this means they try to introduce Lindy footwork into their Modern Jive. Why? :confused: Did I mention they are TWO DIFFERENT DANCES?

On the subject of Lindy Hoppers. The only thing about them that makes me angry is that I get them turning up to my MJ dances and complaining that I don't play any music they can Lindy Hop to. My answer is that they've made a mistake. They come to the wrong dance, I run Modern Jive dances. Do people turn up to AT dances and complain that they don't play enough waltzes? No they don't, because they recognise that they are TWO DIFFERENT DANCES.

And, because they are two different dances I think it was misguided of Tiggs Tours raise the issue here :confused: In my experience of the Forum there has been very little knocking of Lindy Hop. The majority of discussion has been about MJ. That's because this is a Ceroc Forum, it discusses Ceroc which is a brand of MJ. If people want to discuss Lindy Hop they should visit a Lindy Hop forum because MJ and Lindy Hop ARE TWO DIFFERENT DANCES.

Can I do Lindy Hop? Yes I can - badly. I can also do waltz, quicktep, cha cha cha, salsa, west coast swing, tango, foxtrot, etc, etc. They are all different dances. I do them appropriately. I am not a Lindy Hopper or a Modern Jiver, quickstepper, foxtrotter or any other kind of dancer that needs to be categorised and applauded, derided or analysed. Do Foxtrotters look down on waltzers? The original question is rubbish and I'm amazed it was asked.

Andy

p.s. Am I back. No. But I will return once in a while like this occasion when the forum has started to get too far up itself and this is one of those times. Come on Tiggs Tours, join a Lindy Hop forum if you want to talk about that dance.

Spot on Andy Mc - I fully agree (as did TiggsTours) :respect:

I have done numerous lindy weekenders in the UK (before MJ weekenders were invented)

Fun stuff and "another dance".

Yes some people are snobby about what they do. If they have the need to put down other dance styles or other people, that is more about the character of that person than anything else.

Mostly I have found Lindy dancers tell me in a roundabout way, or even directly - I am crap coz I dance MJ. Then again I have had a Latin dancer tell me I am wrong to include cha cha in my MJ. Chill out loser.......... I only do this when I know the girl follows well and will enjoy a change when the music is right, and I never make the girl feel out of place. It has a fair bit to do with perception and what the girl is comfortable with.

I have had people slag off MJ to me, but you have to respect the "numbers" through the door. MJ has more numbers through the door, cos it is simple and accesable and can grow to as complex as you like.

Good thread TT and well articulated AMc

Martin
20th-September-2006, 07:56 PM
On the subject of Lindy, I have not done it for a while, and last year I went to an Aussie Lindy weekend.

First night, I was not confident I could do the full biz as it had been a while.

So I watched for the Fri eve dance, a girl asked me to dance...
I told her, sorry I cannot dance Lindy, I will be happy to dance with you tomorrow after a few lessons.

She came straight back and told me, "obviously you are a dancer, as only a dancer would say that - let's dance anyway, your style, you lead"

:worthy:

Will
21st-September-2006, 12:54 AM
People who dance lots of Lindy and not much MJ tend to prefer Lindy to MJ - is this entirely surprising?
No. I think you need to re-read my post though as I never said otherwise.

It would be rather odd if people gave up MJ for Lindy, despite thinking that MJ was better.
I think you've mis-understood what people are saying here. No-one has a problem with people prefering to do (or watch) lindy-hop over ceroc (or visa versa). The problem is that there are alot of people within Lindy-Hop who simply see it as a fact (rather than a personal preference) that Lindy-Hop superior to Ceroc as a dance form and that anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.


Different people want different things out of dancing. Depending on what you want, different dances will appeal.
Again this is quite right, but hopefully you'll see again that this isn't what is being discussed.


If someone wants to do a lot of different dips and drops, and considers the skill involved in a well executed drop to be the acid test for good dancing, then they'll likely believe that MJ is superior to Lindy. How much of that is snobbishness, and how much of it is having an opinion?
Very cunning. Right at the end of your post you sneaked in the word "superior" rather than "preferable". In fact it isn't likely at all that people will see Ceroc as superior for the reasons you have mentioned, but I would agree that it is likely that people would prefer Ceroc over Lindy if they are like dips and drops.

People prefering one dance form to another doesn't lead to snobbishness in itself at least. People thinking that a dance form is factually superior to another dance form can lead to snobbishness, and in the experience of several people who've posted on this thread (including myself), this has led to alot of snobbery within the ranks of Lindy-Hop towards Ceroc.

A nice try at muddying the waters though Mr Harper :wink:

Will

detomo
21st-September-2006, 06:43 AM
I've always looked at lindy and wanted to learn it, but to learn it well looks like a big time investment :sad:

clevedonboy
21st-September-2006, 07:46 AM
I've always looked at lindy and wanted to learn it, but to learn it well looks like a big time investment :sad:

The same is true for many things in life I'm afraid, but that isn't a reason to shy away from giving it a go. I'm coming up on year of Lindy Hop now and feel comfortable dancing sociably , so yes it takes a lot of effort.

Graeme & Ann teach once a month in Exeter & I've heard that an experienced couple (Derek & Jane) are running a beginners class (maybe at the Uni). Why not pop along to one of those?

Graeme & Ann www.hoppinmad.co.uk

don't have details for Derek but you should be able to contact him through Paul Thornton www.southwestswing.org.uk

detomo
21st-September-2006, 02:38 PM
Graeme & Ann teach once a month in Exeter & I've heard that an experienced couple (Derek & Jane) are running a beginners class (maybe at the Uni). Why not pop along to one of those?



Cheers clevedonboy :)

Dance with Jane whenever I see her around, and talk to Paul most weeks, so know it is around in Exeter. Times clash with other things :mad:. But have promised myself to try in next couple of years.

Mr Cool
21st-September-2006, 04:21 PM
I'm up here in heaven and I can't believe the rubbish that is said about Lindy Hop on this thread.

Lindy Hop is a genuine dance, so is Modern Jive. The problem comes when people try to do both at the same time. I'm going to say this twice, they are two different dances. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT DANCES.

Nobody says, "I'm going to do a waltz in the style of a quickstep or a tango in the style of a cha cha cha. But some Lindy Hoppers, and this includes Clevedonboy, do their MJ in the style of Lindy Hop - this means they try to introduce Lindy footwork into their Modern Jive. Why? :confused: Did I mention they are TWO DIFFERENT DANCES?
Andy you are a superb dancer, leader and follower you have followed me on a few occasions Bogner and Swindon Ceroc come to mind. :respect:
I recall leading you into a hollywood whip or two with little problem. I think lindy (I prefer smooth style) MJ, WCS and AT can be mixed and matched. (It is how I prefer to dance) I find many MJ ladies can follow basic lead and follow swing and a little AT they enjoy the challenge. WCS in particular benifits from smooth swing moves I have noticed some of the top USA WCS dancers use them, it adds more depth and lets face it makes the dance more dynamic.
For me dancing is dancing I find sticking to one style restrictive and boring.
The fun of dance for me is to mix it up and see how the lady or follower responds.
I would never belittle MJ it is a fantastic dance that has few rules which is what I like.
Lindy adds a different dimension it can be danced to such a wide range of speeds which is wonderful. AT adds yet another twist to the dance as does blues, all including WCS can be danced to a variety of music.
At the end if the day dancing for me is about lead and follow, musicality, attitude and having fun. I look forward to our next dance. :clap:
:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

Andy McGregor
21st-September-2006, 04:53 PM
I look forward to our next dance. :clap:
:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:So do I :flower:

MartinHarper
21st-September-2006, 07:59 PM
In the experience of several people ... this has led to alot of snobbery within the ranks of Lindy-Hop towards Ceroc.

I want to be clear right from that start that where some people have found a lot of anti-Ceroc snobbery within the Lindy world, that I'm not telling you that those people weren't snobs, or that you shouldn't have felt like that. Often we form that kind of judgement from a whole range of things, and it's the way that something is said, rather than what is said.

Having said that....


It isn't likely at all that people will see Ceroc as superior for the reasons you have mentioned

Perhaps I should avoid speaking in hypotheticals then.

Recently we had a discussion on the demise of Double Trouble (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9526). DavidJames and myself both seem to feel that DT is a gimmick dance, when compared to MJ. Speaking for myself, I feel that musicality and connection are very important in partner dancing, and these are things that I see much of in regular Modern Jive, and little of in Double Trouble.

There's a lot of skill in Double Trouble, and I happilly acknowledge that. Many DT dancers dance better with two followers than I do with one. I can see that learning DT may improve general dancing skills, particularly in relation to doing multiple things at once. I do the occasional DT lesson, when it gets taught at a "fun class" at a freestyle. I didn't dismiss it out of hand, and I'll happilly mangle it in freestyles upon request. I don't feel snobby.

Still, if you ask me for my honest opinion, I feel that Modern Jive is a proper dances, whilst Double Trouble is a gimmick dance. Am I snobby merely because I hold that opinion? You tell me, I guess.

David Franklin
21st-September-2006, 09:34 PM
There's a lot of skill in Double Trouble, and I happilly acknowledge that. Many DT dancers dance better with two followers than I do with one.

Still, if you ask me for my honest opinion, I feel that Modern Jive is a proper dances, whilst Double Trouble is a gimmick dance. Am I snobby merely because I hold that opinion? You tell me, I guess.Well, if you went to the DT dancer who dances better with two followers than you do with one, and told him: "What you're doing isn't proper dancing, whereas what I'm doing is", then I'd say that was pretty snobby.

MartinHarper
22nd-September-2006, 12:10 AM
Well, if you went to the DT dancer who dances better with two followers than you do with one, and told him: "What you're doing isn't proper dancing, whereas what I'm doing is", then I'd say that was pretty snobby.

Interesting.
I'd actually think "what you're dancing isn't a proper dance", which is slightly different, and I try not to randomly blurt my opinions out to total strangers. Except online, of course. Still, maybe it is being snobby. Food for thought.

Does that go for everything? If a couple of friends repeatedly fall over to "I get knocked down", is that a proper partner dance, of equal value to Modern Jive? Is it snobby if I think that Tango is a better dance than the Macarena?

David Franklin
22nd-September-2006, 08:56 AM
Interesting.
I'd actually think "what you're dancing isn't a proper dance", which is slightly different.The problem I'm seeing is that you are stipulating his DT dancing is "better" than your MJ dancing. To my mind, if it's better dancing than yours, then you seem to be saying it's not "proper dancing" solely because it's a different dance style than yours, and that is almost the definition of snobbery. Unless you were admitting that your own MJ dancing isn't proper dancing either, of course.


I try not to randomly blurt my opinions out to total strangers. Fair enough. But not all are so reticent. I have had several Lindy Hoppers tell me how they'd moved on from MJ to a "real" dance form.


Does that go for everything? If a couple of friends repeatedly fall over to "I get knocked down", is that a proper partner dance, of equal value to Modern Jive? Is it snobby if I think that Tango is a better dance than the Macarena?I don't see anything wrong in thinking one style is better than another. The problem lies in applying that to individuals, in saying "X is doing Tango, Y is doing the Macarena, therefore X is a better dancer than Y", regardless of the fact that X is off time and yanking his partner all over the place, while Y has great quality of movement and musical interpretation.

Of course, absolute comments about a dance form are usually snobby, because the implication is that they apply to every individual doing that dance (or at least to every individual doing only that dance). As one whose been on the receiving end of "MJ isn't a proper dance" comments, I certainly got the subtext of "...and therefore you're not a proper dancer".

Dreadful Scathe
22nd-September-2006, 09:20 AM
I'd like to agree with this. Regretfully, I can recall slagging off WCS quite recently, so I'd feel a little hypocritical.

Hypocrisy!! On THIS forum?!?!?

I was going to be sarcastic there but I think thats banned too :)




I think Lindy culture makes it easier to learn Lindy well, though I guess that is partly because of what I consider makes for good dancing.

Lindy is simply more difficult: footwork, patterns and musicality are part of the foundations of Lindy - i wouldnt say that that is necessarily true for MJ. In other words - you can dance MJ quite badly quite quickly ;) It makes MJ a great beginners dance and as we well know, leads the dance lovers onto better MJ and other dance styles. There'll always be some who never progress beyond "bounce bounce first move bounce bounce catapult repeat"...possibly because they may not want to - and theres nowt wrong with that.





What problems does this cause?

A dogs dinner ? :)

Mr Cool
22nd-September-2006, 09:32 AM
Lindy hop is a great dance like MJ when danced well looks and feels great.:respect:
Many MJ dancers dislike lindy and as a lindy hopper and dance maverick :wink:
I have to admit there are some aspects of the dance I am not keen on.
Number one being when it is performed in a bouncy style with lots of kicks to set moves.
My preferance is the smooth style slides not kicks and purly lead and follow.
I have noticed that the best lindy hoppers have danced MJ in the past they tend to be smoother dancers.
Many lindy hoppers are moves/ routine obsessed. Many hardly ever dance, :eek:
I can never understand why so many lindy hoppers go to classes each week and dont dance at the end of the class what is that about:confused: how can you learn to dance without free practice:confused:
It is amazing how many lindy hoppers struggle to perform a basic swing out or whip in freestyle and yet they know 50 variations of the charleston. :rofl: (so sad) :yeah:

It really is simple stuff you don't learn to dance any form of dance attending lessons alone you have to dance free style to learn to dance isnt that the fun of it????
Get on the dance floor ask lots of people to dance (not just the usual clique)
Feel the music and dance :cheers:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

straycat
22nd-September-2006, 09:42 AM
A dogs dinner ? :)

:rofl: :respect:

Juju
24th-September-2006, 10:20 AM
Slightly off the point, but if I wanted to have a go at lindy where should I go? I live in the West Midlands. Can anyone recommend a venue/lessons? Ta.

Minnie M
24th-September-2006, 11:01 AM
Slightly off the point, but if I wanted to have a go at lindy where should I go? I live in the West Midlands. Can anyone recommend a venue/lessons? Ta.

How far are you from Gloucester ? Worth a trip to Gary & Sarah Boon (www.jiveandswing.co.uk) if you can manage it - they really are the tops, and such a lovely couple too :clap:

MartinHarper
24th-September-2006, 11:32 AM
How far are you from Gloucester ? Worth a trip to Gary & Sarah Boon (www.jiveandswing.co.uk) if you can manage it - they really are the tops, and such a lovely couple too :clap:

Yes, I'd certainly recommend Gary and Sarah as teachers (and dancers). Gary has a down-to-earth, no-nonsense approach to teaching. Sarah is a little quieter in comparison, and it's definately worth listening to everything she does say.

I'd also recommend TRDC (http://www.jazzjiveswing.com/index.htm) - their beginner/intermediate JazzJive classes are essentially Modern Jive mixed with simpler Lindy steps, whilst their int2/adv classes become pure Lindy. The teaching level varies from venue to venue, and also through the year, so you may want to phone first for details.

I'm not sure where you are in the Midlands, but I currently go to their Lindy classes in Worcester(Malvern) and Cheltenham(Staverton), so PM me if you have questions about those venues. You might want to check out Birmingham(King's Heath) or Stroud(Nailsworth) too, if they're more convenient.

Mr Cool
24th-September-2006, 01:03 PM
Yes, I'd certainly recommend Gary and Sarah as teachers (and dancers). Gary has a down-to-earth, no-nonsense approach to teaching. Sarah is a little quieter in comparison, and it's definately worth listening to everything she does say.

I'd also recommend TRDC (http://www.jazzjiveswing.com/index.htm) - their beginner/intermediate JazzJive classes are essentially Modern Jive mixed with simpler Lindy steps, whilst their int2/adv classes become pure Lindy. The teaching level varies from venue to venue, and also through the year, so you may want to phone first for details.

I'm not sure where you are in the Midlands, but I currently go to their Lindy classes in Worcester(Malvern) and Cheltenham(Staverton), so PM me if you have questions about those venues. You might want to check out Birmingham(King's Heath) or Stroud(Nailsworth) too, if they're more convenient.

I agree also Gary and Sarah are wonderful they tend to teach a slightly less traditional style and are further are away from you. The rock dance company class at Staverton the venue is Dowty social club easy to find (Dowty is massive) is five muinites frim junction 11
The class on wednesdays used to be the one to go to from memory the first class is jazz jive (not my taste) followed by a lindy class James hamilton normally teaches (not to everybodies taste) :respect: (It works for me) he does move quickly and makes you go through techniques over and over this is hard work but worth it. Good luck:cheers: :clap: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

MartinHarper
24th-September-2006, 05:15 PM
The class on wednesdays used to be the one to go to from memory the first class is jazz jive (not my taste) followed by a lindy class

It's now first class beginner's lindy, second class non-beginner's lindy.

clevedonboy
24th-September-2006, 07:09 PM
I think TRDC (jazzjiveswing.com) also teach in Birmingham (some of them have attended Graeme & Ann's workshops nr Worcester)

you could also ask at http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/uklindy_swing/

Juju
24th-September-2006, 07:16 PM
Thanks for the links, folks. I'll have a look at them all and hopefully give it a go. Wish me luck....

David Franklin
24th-September-2006, 07:41 PM
I'd also recommend TRDC (http://www.jazzjiveswing.com/index.htm) - their beginner/intermediate JazzJive classes are essentially Modern Jive mixed with simpler Lindy steps, whilst their int2/adv classes become pure Lindy.Can I just point out something here? You're saying the "beginner" classes are Modern Jive, and the "advanced" classes are Lindy. In terms of the thread title, how do you think that comes across do a MJ dancer? You don't think there might be just the teeniest implication that Lindy is superior to MJ there?

I freely admit this is partly a chip on my shoulder, caused by a MJC workshop James Hamilton taught several years ago. Advertised as "Advanced Jive", his first words were "Well, as far as I'm concerned, Advanced Jive is Lindy Hop, so that's what I'm going to teach". He then proceeded to teach several moves with set footwork, in a venue where no-one past the first row could see below his waist. Needless to state, the MJ dancers were left feeling more than a little lost. I have to say, there were more than a few of us who felt this was actually his intention.

Juju
24th-September-2006, 07:55 PM
Thanks for the links, folks. I'll have a look at them all and hopefully give it a go. Wish me luck....

Aieeee! So far it looks like they're either too far away to be a reasonable option on a regular basis, or on the wrong night of the week.... Nuts.

Juju
24th-September-2006, 07:57 PM
:flower: Thanks again anyway.

MartinHarper
25th-September-2006, 01:42 AM
You're saying the "beginner" classes are Modern Jive, and the "advanced" classes are Lindy.

No, I didn't say that. Since you ask, though, I'll provide a fuller description of the classes.

The Modern Jive/Lindy Hop hybrid known by the trademarked term "JazzJive" is primarily a teaching tool that gets people dancing, with a view to teaching them Lindy as and when they want to learn a "proper" dance. Compared to true MJ or Lindy, it has a vastly reduced move/movement vocabulary and far fewer people dance it on any kind of regular basis. There are no "advanced JazzJive" classes or workshops. With apologies to those who feel that all dance forms are created equal, in my opinion it is an inferior dance form to both Modern Jive and Lindy.

Beginner TRDC classes are suitable for beginners - not just to Jive or Swing, but complete beginners to dancing. As you may recall TRDC runs things in terms. The first class of the term, last time I watched, taught the First Move, in great detail, over 60 minutes, which seems standard. I've lead and followed a number of dances in my time consisting solely of first moves, and this is why. A couple of weeks later, you learn the Jockey, which is the easiest Lindy move in the book, and happens to fit in well with JazzJive.

After that you get intermediate TRDC classes, still teaching JazzJive. They are not suitable for complete beginners, but neither are they advanced. In JazzJive intermediate classes, you learn a few more JazzJive moves, some of which are also suitable for Lindy. In terms of moves, the level is below a Ceroc intermediate class. On the other hand, there's more emphasis put on lead/follow, moves are discussed in more detail, and there can be bits of musicality thrown in.

At some point (typically "Intermediate 2", but different venues progress at different speeds) you start getting taught pure Lindy. At this point, the student who has previously learnt JazzJive discovers, to their delight, that they already know five to ten Lindy moves, they already know six-beat Lindy footwork, and they already know about lead/follow, floorcraft, and so forth. Although these classes are the first pure Lindy classes, they are aimed at people who have prior experience with partner dance. These classes start off by teaching common Lindy moves that do not fit in to the JazzJive framework, such as the Swingout. Though these moves are harder than the First Move, nevertheless they get taught at three times the rate of the First Move.


You don't think there might be just the teeniest implication that Lindy is superior to MJ there?

No.

Many people believe that MJ is very accessible to beginners. TRDC uses this to make Lindy more accessible, as do Gary and Sarah. This demonstrates a recognition and respect by Lindy teachers of one of the advantages of Modern Jive. Accessibility is not a mark of inferiority, so this does not imply that MJ is inferior to Lindy.


I freely admit this is partly a chip on my shoulder, caused by a MJC workshop James Hamilton taught several years ago.

You've told us this story before. Time to move on?

Whitebeard
25th-September-2006, 04:07 AM
..... A couple of weeks later, you learn the Jockey, which is the easiest Lindy move in the book, and happens to fit in well with JazzJive.... .



Gee, I remember that. Even then, it used to play havoc with my poor old knees. Hated it.

TiggsTours
25th-September-2006, 10:38 AM
Can I just point out something here? You're saying the "beginner" classes are Modern Jive, and the "advanced" classes are Lindy. In terms of the thread title, how do you think that comes across do a MJ dancer? You don't think there might be just the teeniest implication that Lindy is superior to MJ there?

I freely admit this is partly a chip on my shoulder, caused by a MJC workshop James Hamilton taught several years ago. Advertised as "Advanced Jive", his first words were "Well, as far as I'm concerned, Advanced Jive is Lindy Hop, so that's what I'm going to teach". He then proceeded to teach several moves with set footwork, in a venue where no-one past the first row could see below his waist. Needless to state, the MJ dancers were left feeling more than a little lost. I have to say, there were more than a few of us who felt this was actually his intention.

Or, and this is just an alternative way of thinking, you could read it as saying, "If you can do MJ, then you can easily walk straight into Advanced Lindy, without bothering with the boring beginner stuff, because its so easy."

If it was the other way round, then I'd say you have more of a point, Advanced MJ / Beginner Lindy, that to me reads as "You have to be advanced at MJ before you could even attempt Lindy beginner, as it is a far superior dance form."

Please note, I am in no way saying that either of these are the way I think, I think everyone should go to beginner classes first as soon as they start any new dance style, no matter how good they are at anything else! The same applies for an advanced lindy dancer learning MJ for the first time, I would always advise them to start with the beginners.

David Franklin
25th-September-2006, 11:31 AM
Or, and this is just an alternative way of thinking, you could read it as saying, "If you can do MJ, then you can easily walk straight into Advanced Lindy, without bothering with the boring beginner stuff, because its so easy."Of course, since he did not say "Advanced Jive is Advanced Lindy Hop", that interpretation is somewhat hard to justify. And in fact:


If it was the other way round, then I'd say you have more of a point, Advanced MJ / Beginner Lindy, that to me reads as "You have to be advanced at MJ before you could even attempt Lindy beginner, as it is a far superior dance form."That was pretty much how it went. E.g. we were told "Now Ceroc teaches this as an difficult move, but it's actually a simplified version of a standard move from Lindy Hop". And the class was pretty much full of "Ceroc tells you to do it like this, but that's wrong, the correct way is from Lindy Hop..."

But the bottom line is I don't see a need to justify how I felt, because I know damn well I wasn't the only one who felt like that. I can say, bluntly, that that class was a terrible advertisement for Lindy Hop and JazzJive - I heard people (no, not me!) referring to it as a reason not to do a JazzJive class years later.

But apparently it's time for me to "move on". I must say being told that has completely changed my opinion of Lindy Hop... :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
25th-September-2006, 11:50 AM
But the bottom line is I don't see a need to justify how I felt, because I know damn well I wasn't the only one who felt like that. I can say, bluntly, that that class was a terrible advertisement for Lindy Hop and JazzJive - I heard people (no, not me!) referring to it as a reason not to do a JazzJive class years later.Apropos of not very much, I wonder what the person giving the class would say if he read these comments? I don't know James Hamilton even by reputation, but can he really have meant things to come out the way they did?

TiggsTours
25th-September-2006, 12:07 PM
Of course, since he did not say "Advanced Jive is Advanced Lindy Hop", that interpretation is somewhat hard to justify. And in fact:

That was pretty much how it went. E.g. we were told "Now Ceroc teaches this as an difficult move, but it's actually a simplified version of a standard move from Lindy Hop". And the class was pretty much full of "Ceroc tells you to do it like this, but that's wrong, the correct way is from Lindy Hop..."

But the bottom line is I don't see a need to justify how I felt, because I know damn well I wasn't the only one who felt like that. I can say, bluntly, that that class was a terrible advertisement for Lindy Hop and JazzJive - I heard people (no, not me!) referring to it as a reason not to do a JazzJive class years later.

But apparently it's time for me to "move on". I must say being told that has completely changed my opinion of Lindy Hop... :whistle:

Sorry, didn't explain myself very well, I was just trying to say, there are always more than one side to every story, I prefer to look for the positive side, rather than the negative.

Of course, the negative may well be the right one, but if you blinker yourself to it and always see the positive, you do nobody else any harm, and the world becomes a far shinier place. :D

Dreadful Scathe
25th-September-2006, 12:58 PM
Advertised as "Advanced Jive", his first words were "Well, as far as I'm concerned, Advanced Jive is Lindy Hop, so that's what I'm going to teach".

Going by that, he is an arrogrant ar5ehole. Calling something "Advanced Jive" to get the Jivers in and then doing a different dance style is nothing short of a con - I'm surprised you stayed. I've seen classes advertised as "intro to Lindy Hop for Jivers" and the like which is fine - people do want to diversify, but this example is particularly appropriate for this thread : if people are introduced to Lindy Hop as "Advanced jive" then that mans arrogance filters down to the newcomers too. Are you sure his name isn't "Richard".




You've told us this story before. Time to move on?

Let the rest of us be the judge of that - I hadnt read that before. lot o'posts on ere y'know.

David Bailey
25th-September-2006, 01:07 PM
That was pretty much how it went. E.g. we were told "Now Ceroc teaches this as an difficult move, but it's actually a simplified version of a standard move from Lindy Hop". And the class was pretty much full of "Ceroc tells you to do it like this, but that's wrong, the correct way is from Lindy Hop..."
Interesting - I can see how that could create a "Lindy is superior to MJ / Ceroc" atmosphere in students - in fact, it'd be hard to avoid.

There's a good comparison to be made with Jango I think - in that Jango is not a teaching tool, it's an attempt to create a new dance style. Also, I don't believe Amir disses MJ in that way.

I guess the main problem is that people confuse "learning curve" with "difficulty" or even "superiority". Tango has, by common consent, a massive learning curve - but I don't think it's inherently more "difficult" to dance good AT than it is to dance good MJ, or that AT is inherently "superior". They're both dances, and it's damned hard to be a good dancer in any form.


But apparently it's time for me to "move on". I must say being told that has completely changed my opinion of Lindy Hop... :whistle:
:rofl: It's like being told to "calm down" when you're worked up, isn't it? That never works on me either...

David Franklin
25th-September-2006, 01:47 PM
Interesting - I can see how that could create a "Lindy is superior to MJ / Ceroc" atmosphere in students - in fact, it'd be hard to avoid.

There's a good comparison to be made with Jango I think - in that Jango is not a teaching tool, it's an attempt to create a new dance style. Also, I don't believe Amir disses MJ in that way. I don't think Amir is entirely uncritical of MJ, but as you say, the fact that he considers Jango as "something different", rather than "what MJ ought to be" makes quite a difference in the way it comes across. As DS says, it makes a difference how you position the class.


I guess the main problem is that people confuse "learning curve" with "difficulty" or even "superiority". Tango has, by common consent, a massive learning curve - but I don't think it's inherently more "difficult" to dance good AT than it is to dance good MJ, or that AT is inherently "superior". They're both dances, and it's damned hard to be a good dancer in any form.Slight aside, but elsewhere you've commented about MJ not having an identity. And during the course of this thread, it's occurred to me that the dances I see as really "up themselves" are the ones with a very firm identity. Which it often feels is used to exclude people.

e.g. In Salsa you have the mystical 'sabor', which you can use to denigrate anyone you like. "Oh, they may be the Latin World Champions, but they can't salsa. They have no sabor!". In Lindy you get people saying "well, if it's <200bpm, it's not really Lindy", or complaining because people look too controlled when they're dancing. In the interests of discretion over valour, I won't start on Tango...

Conversely, I don't see that much in MJ. OK, there's a pretty strong "bouncing is the work of the devil" meme, but even that doesn't go so far as to say "he bounces, therefore he's crap". But we have, and accept, smooth dancers, hip-hop dancers, slotted, circular, etc. Y'know, that's actually pretty cool.

[What about WCS? I'd say it's complicated - it has aspects of the inclusiveness of MJ; look at the backgrounds of Robert Royston, Mario Robau, Robert Cordoba and Charlie Womble, for example. But then there's the whole "cult of Skippy" thing, and a rather unlovely snobbishness along the lines of "WCS has taught me to be such a superb lead/follow with perfect musical interpretation that I can pick up any other dance style in 30 minutes and do it better than a veteran of that style"].


:rofl: It's like being told to "calm down" when you're worked up, isn't it? That never works on me either...Of course, it doesn't actually bother me now. I mention it now because it upset me then. In much the same way as those who say on other threads "don't turn down beginners - remember how it felt when you were a beginner and got turned down?". A reply saying "Hey, it's 5 years since you were a beginner. Don't you think it's time you got over it?" is somewhat missing the point.

Dreadful Scathe
25th-September-2006, 02:36 PM
There's a good comparison to be made with Jango I think - in that Jango is not a teaching tool, it's an attempt to create a new dance style. Also, I don't believe Amir disses MJ in that way.

There is no arrogance in Amirs teaching or at Jango generally. Its an opportunity to take Modern Jive further, just as aerials classes would be if that was your thing. I wouldn't have thought its an attempt at a new dance style as it does have its roots in modern jive and its likely to remain that way. Are there any Jango'ers who have no MJ experience? Am I wrong again ? :)


They're both dances, and it's damned hard to be a good dancer in any form.

well said. Its certainly true the MJ is one of the easier dances to get into, but it can be danced to the highest level of skill. Amir is a good example - compare his MJ to the other dances he does - can anyone say that any particular style is inferior when they are done well? (apart from dance purists/bigots ;) )


* This has been a pro-Amir thread. Brought to you by DreadfulScathe SpinDoctors inc. Amir is god. Bow before him etc..*

Will
25th-September-2006, 03:29 PM
e.g. In Salsa you have the mystical 'sabor', which you can use to denigrate anyone you like. "Oh, they may be the Latin World Champions, but they can't salsa. They have no sabor!". In Lindy you get people saying "well, if it's <200bpm, it's not really Lindy", or complaining because people look too controlled when they're dancing. In the interests of discretion over valour, I won't start on Tango...
Can I then?

At the first Tango class I ever went to, I had a German woman stare me straight in the eye (she could do this easily as she was wearing stilts for heels - not to mention fish net stockings that on this occasion had clearly caught a Trout!) and tell me that "Tango is Life!"..... (I told her that football was mine and asked her how Bayern Munich were getting on - She's never danced with me since...)

Dreadful Scathe
25th-September-2006, 03:51 PM
Can I then?

At the first Tango class I ever went to, I had a German woman stare me straight in the eye (she could do this easily as she was wearing stilts for heels - not to mention fish net stockings that on this occasion had clearly caught a Trout!) and tell me that "Tango is Life!"..... (I told her that football was mine and asked her how Bayern Munich were getting on - She's never danced with me since...)
As a representative of the absent DavidB I feel i must say with some increduality ..."football is your life? but I thought you supported Man City!"

David Bailey
25th-September-2006, 05:36 PM
At the first Tango class I ever went to, I had a German woman stare me straight in the eye ... and tell me that "Tango is Life!".....
Sounds about right. There's a lot of bullsh&t like that in AT, more than in other dances I think.

At the end of the day, it's just shuffling your feet around, it's not the cure for cancer or something.

Juju
25th-September-2006, 08:43 PM
Sounds about right. There's a lot of bullsh&t like that in AT, more than in other dances I think.

At the end of the day, it's just shuffling your feet around, it's not the cure for cancer or something.

Yes, but - deranged German ladies/irritating jumped-up poseurs aside - "shuffling your feet around" is one of those things which make life worth living. Don't diss it.

MartinHarper
25th-September-2006, 09:41 PM
David F, your posting style suggests a lot of confidence that the word "advanced" was intended as an insult towards MJ dancers, and is an indication of snobbery and arrogance. It seems to me that you are reading a lot into a single word. You have your memories of a workshop to support this opinion, but this workshop was, as you say, "years" ago. Is it possible that James Hamilton may have changed in this time?

I ask because I am struggling to reconcile your very hostile assessment of James with my own experiences. I've frequently taken his classes, and attended a few of his events. So have a few other Ceroc dancers and at least one Ceroc teacher, and I can't say I've ever felt inferior or marginalised because I know and dance Ceroc. Possibly I am just being my normal insensitive self. It does seem like a pretty big discrepancy.

Later on, I read comments from Dreadful Scathe and DavidJames extrapolating from your memories of a workshop several years ago, which they weren't at, and concluding that the whole Lindy culture in the area today must be corrupted by his "arrogance". Again, that's not my experience.

----

Jango comparisons. Amir used to claim that Jango was a new dance style in its own right, rather than a mere hybrid. on his website About page (http://web.archive.org/web/20050307120413/http://www.fusiondance.freeservers.com/about.html):


Tango-Jive, a unique blend of modern jive dancing with tango inspired moves. Whilst many people have mixed such dance forms, often this has been limited to doing a few moves from one form, then swapping to the other then back again. Tango-Jive involves finding a real cross over which takes the best of both worlds and blends it into a complete whole, so you may not tell where the jive begins and the tango ends.

His current About page (http://www.fusiondance.freeservers.com/aboutjango.htm) does not make such claims. I don't know how much that reflects a change in his attitude, if at all.
I should point out that my opinions of JazzJive, and indeed the jive/swing hybrid Gary teaches, are entirely my own.

----

Substyles.
I find that MJ dancers are generally very tolerant of different dancing substyles, such as slotted MJ vs circular MJ. There are a few people who have strong opinions that certain ways of dancing MJ are incorrect, or the result of bad technique, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Personally, I've found much the same in Lindy. There are differences, though, such as the different treatment of vintage footage in the two scenes.

I don't mean to embarass Chef, who may have changed his opinion since this post a year ago, but I thought this was an excellent demonstration that MJ dancers can be every inch as dogmatic as Lindy dancers.


I have never, ever,ever, seen MJ in any of its forms taught as travelling in a circle. The men always stand in lines, side by side, with their partners in front of them. The class is taught and the women either end up where they started, or on the other side of the mans starting position.

So if you find you are dancing in a circle it is because you are not doing what you were taught.

So, no matter if you are dancing WCS or MJ you should be dancing in a slot because that is what you were taught. If you are all reasonable people you would arrange that your dancing slots are all parallel just like they are in the classes. Since parallel lines do not intersect no couple should intrude into any others dance space. Just like in the class.

So if your MJ circle dance that you have never been taught strays in to a anothers dance slot (be it WCS, MJ or cha cha) its your own fault for not doing the dance you were taught in the class.

Talking of good floorcraft. It is always wise to have a look along your dance slot before walking along it or sending your partner along it. But, if others would just dance in a slot they would never be in your dance slot to cause you a problem.

So before you whine that your MJ circle dance that scythes around the dance floor like the knives on Bodecias chariot sweeping all out of its path gets interupted by other people dancing in their own slot, just remember that it is you causing the problem because you can't dance in the slot as you were taught in the class. Nobody would have to compromise and squash together if everyone could just do what they were taught in the lesson.

{Rant over} My day is really going downhill fast.

Mr Cool
25th-September-2006, 10:31 PM
[QUOTE=MartinHarper;284148]David F, your posting style suggests a lot of confidence that the word "advanced" was intended as an insult towards MJ dancers, and is an indication of snobbery and arrogance. It seems to me that you are reading a lot into a single word. You have your memories of a workshop to support this opinion, but this workshop was, as you say, "years" ago. Is it possible that James Hamilton may have changed in this time?

Nice post Martin :worthy: :worthy:

I have attended lindy classes with lots of teachers including Frankie Manning:respect: (oldest swinger in history) Rob and Diane, Ryan and Jenny, Andy and Rena, (not my taste), Graham and Ann, Gary and Sarah and many more.
In my oppinion James Hamilton is as good as any of these, nobody works you harder( many can't hack it) his classes are not easy he drives you hard, he doesnt spend half the class talking you spend most of the class dancing.:respect:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

Dreadful Scathe
26th-September-2006, 08:44 AM
David F, your posting style suggests a lot of confidence that the word "advanced" was intended as an insult towards MJ dancers, and is an indication of snobbery and arrogance. It seems to me that you are reading a lot into a single word.

I dont think he is, His quote from James is "Well, as far as I'm concerned, Advanced Jive is Lindy Hop, so that's what I'm going to teach" even if it was "Well, as far as I'm concerned, Peachy Jive is Lindy Hop, so that's what I'm going to teach" it still comes across as arrogant, although slightly nonsensical in that case. His use of "Advanced" is deliberate unless he is so thick, or indeed arrogant, he cannot see the connotations.


You have your memories of a workshop to support this opinion, but this workshop was, as you say, "years" ago. Is it possible that James Hamilton may have changed in this time?

Whats that got to do with anything? Is your comment that James "may have changed" an suggestion that even if he WAS that arrogant at one point we should ignore it if he's alright now? DavidFs point is valid no matter what James is like now. Even if he has changed, you are sycophantically assuming its for the better based on your experience, which is just as valid as DavidF's.


Later on, I read comments from Dreadful Scathe and DavidJames extrapolating from your memories of a workshop several years ago, which they weren't at, and concluding that the whole Lindy culture in the area today must be corrupted by his "arrogance". Again, that's not my experience.

I had no such conclusion. I said "Going by that, he is an arrogrant ar5ehole" and he is. DavidF doesnt appear to be affected by this arrogance and I'm sure others in the class were similarly annoyed at the remark. It was just ONE Lindy Class. The conclusion "that the whole Lindy culture in the area today must be corrupted" because of that comment is a straw man argument invented by you and taped into cartoon speech bubbles as if they are popping out the mouths of me and DavidJames. And no one is falling for it.

Its ironic that you are arrogantly insisting that your experience is more "advanced" experience than DavidFs :)

Dreadful Scathe
26th-September-2006, 08:52 AM
if people are introduced to Lindy Hop as "Advanced jive" then that mans arrogance filters down to the newcomers too

Thanks Martin for the justification for your "conlusion" remark based on this quote. To explain this better then - I'm saying IF it was true, and repeated, then that arrogance would eventually filter down to any newcomers. I baulked at the display of arrogance from that one comment but i would doubt it would affect lindy hop culture as a whole, or that it was indicitive of any other teachers. :)

MartinHarper
26th-September-2006, 12:34 PM
His quote from James is "Well, as far as I'm concerned, Advanced Jive is Lindy Hop, so that's what I'm going to teach"

To clarify, I was referring to the use of the word "advanced" in his class names, today. David F was suggesting that the use of this word as a class name implies a belief that Lindy is superior to MJ. I think he may be reading too much into a single word.


Is your comment that James "may have changed" an suggestion that even if he WAS that arrogant at one point we should ignore it if he's alright now?

No, that's not my comment.
My comment is that it may be a mistake to interpret the name of someone's classes today, based on what you remember them saying in a workshop some years ago.

*shrug* I've taken five classes from James this month, and likely another couple tomorrow. Ceroc or Modern Jive hasn't been mentioned in any of them, positively or negatively. I don't intend to invalidate DavidF's experience. I simply wish to share my own experience. My apologies if you find this arrogant.

Dreadful Scathe
26th-September-2006, 01:21 PM
stop with the logical and thoughtful responses - newcomers will think we're all sensible*

*er..by association? ;)

Chef
26th-September-2006, 01:25 PM
I don't mean to embarass Chef, who may have changed his opinion since this post a year ago, but I thought this was an excellent demonstration that MJ dancers can be every inch as dogmatic as Lindy dancers.

It is OK. Even reading this back over a year since I first posted it I still don't feel embarrased about it. As for it being dogma, I decided to look it up an online dictionary and found the following for dogma


1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.
2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.
3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.
4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.

I cannot see that 1, 2, or 4 could apply to my post as it was only my personal opinion and therefore not an established belief, doctrine, or tenet.

I still believe that if a move does not go where you intended it to go then it was an error. Errors do occur as one learns, but I always thought that it is one of the points of having lessons is to try to reduce these errors. It was my own view that I went out for the pleasure of dancing and to be uncaring of the precision of my dancing would detract from the pleasure of my dance for me, my partner and those people around me that had to be concerened that my dancing would lead to a collision at any time.

I found that I was putting this case and some other people disagreed with me. That happens. So what. I found pleasure in increasing the precision of my timing, placement, musicality, smoothness so, having said my piece, I went of to enjoy my dancing in that way leaving other people to enjoy their own dancing in their own way.

The discussion did wake me up to the idea that some people were just unconcerned about who they bashed into on the floor so I just worked on a nice line in defensive dancing which would involve me keeping my partner on the far side of the threat so that I would take the knocks rather than her.

One person expressing an opinion is hardly Dogma. Of the dances that I do (all ballroom and latin dances, WCS, Arg Tango, Lindy (only for one year)) MJ is the only one that does not teach the importance or even the concept of floorcraft.

Andy McGregor
26th-September-2006, 02:04 PM
One person expressing an opinion is hardly Dogma. Of the dances that I do (all ballroom and latin dances, WCS, Arg Tango, Lindy (only for one year)) MJ is the only one that does not teach the importance or even the concept of floorcraft.Everything else Chef said is entirely correct. However this last paragraph is one I take exception to. There is not 'one person' expressing an opinion about slotted moves. There's at least two of us :innocent:

And it's not MJ that doesn't teach the importance of floorcraft. I teach it every week in one form or another, either the consolidation lesson, individually, in a workshop or in our weekly email. Here's a paragraph from the dance tip section of last week's email that we send to everyone on our list;

6. Floorcraft - Avoid collisions during freestyle by looking where you are about to lead your partner. If somebody is in the way or it looks like somebody is on a collision course you will need to stop or change what you're doing. When joining the dance floor you must be very careful to avoid those people already dancing - the rules are the same as for traffic: those dancing on the dance floor have priority over those joining it! There is a very similar situation when leaving the floor: once the next track has started you must avoid colliding with people actually dancing while you are crossing the floor. Also, when moving around the room please walk around the edge of the floor, do not cross through the dancers and do not cut the corners and walk through the dancers.

You will notice that this is rule 6: there's others.

But Chef is right that there are MJ classes that don't teach floorcraft. I've been trying to think of a class I've been to where they also teach floorcraft so that I can make it sound like we're not the only ones...

ducasi
26th-September-2006, 02:32 PM
It is OK. Even reading this back over a year since I first posted it I still don't feel embarrased about it. As for it being dogma, I decided to look it up an online dictionary and found the following for dogma

[ snip! ]
I pretty much agree with your sentiments. But I wanted to address this thing about dogma...

Did you look up "dogmatic" in a dictionary?

DOGMATIC: (adjective) inclined to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true.

There doesn't need to be a dogma in order for you to be dogmatic.

Sorry for taking this thread off-topic... :)

mikeyr
26th-September-2006, 03:34 PM
So if your MJ circle dance that you have never been taught strays in to a anothers dance slot (be it WCS, MJ or cha cha) its your own fault for not doing the dance you were taught in the class.

Cha cha isnt a slotted dance style, if thats what youre implying. There are plenty of circular, quarter (slip chasse), half turn forms and box forms in cha cha and rumbain fact it is more likely a tangent dance style. Floorcraft is just as important there too.

El Salsero Gringo
26th-September-2006, 03:55 PM
Cha cha isnt a slotted dance style, if thats what youre implying. There are plenty of circular, quarter (slip chasse), half turn forms and box forms in cha cha and rumbain fact it is more likely a tangent dance style. Floorcraft is just as important there too.I've been taught how to alter the angle of the dance in WCS too. Does that mean WCS isn't slotted?

By the way, in all the WCS lessons I went to, floorcraft was never mentioned once. Shocking.

Cruella
26th-September-2006, 04:06 PM
By the way, in all the WCS lessons I went to, floorcraft was never mentioned once. Shocking.
Perhaps that is because when dancing in a slot it's not very easy to bump another couple, unless they jump into your slot to start dancing!

El Salsero Gringo
26th-September-2006, 04:09 PM
Perhaps that is because when dancing in a slot it's not very easy to bump another couple, unless they jump into your slot to start dancing!So you agree with me that WCS doesn't teach floorcraft... and disagree wich Chef when he says "MJ is the only [style] that does not teach the importance or even the concept of floorcraft."??? :devil:

Cruella
26th-September-2006, 04:15 PM
So you agree with me that WCS doesn't teach floorcraft... and disagree wich Chef when he says "MJ is the only [style] that does not teach the importance or even the concept of floorcraft."??? :devil:

Like you, I haven't done enough WCS lessons to be able to comment as to whether they teach floorcraft. I've never seen it taught in an MJ class either and i've been to a fair few of them.

El Salsero Gringo
26th-September-2006, 04:17 PM
Like you, I haven't done enough WCS lessons to be able to comment as to whether they teach floorcraft.Oh, I think I have, in fact.
I've never seen it taught in an MJ class either and i've been to a fair few of them.It will be on the syllabus at Muswell Hill from now on.

Cruella
26th-September-2006, 04:22 PM
Oh, I think I have, in fact.
Oh good, perhaps you can show me all you learnt next time we dance.

It will be on the syllabus at Muswell Hill from now on.
Oh dear, are you allowed? Is it in the Ceroc script?

El Salsero Gringo
26th-September-2006, 04:31 PM
Oh good, perhaps you can show me all you learnt next time we dance.I don't think you need to be shown how to bump into other dancers...
Oh dear, are you allowed? Is it in the Ceroc script?Although I you're joking (I think!), it is included in course material, yes.

Cruella
26th-September-2006, 04:33 PM
I don't think you need to be shown how to bump into other dancers.
No, you're right, you've already shown me that enough times!

El Salsero Gringo
26th-September-2006, 04:37 PM
No, you're right, you've already shown me that enough times!I would argue, but you're a lady, and it is always the gentleman's fault.

Cruella
26th-September-2006, 04:39 PM
I would argue, but you're a lady, .

Wrong again!

El Salsero Gringo
26th-September-2006, 04:43 PM
Wrong again!Um, what was this thread about, again?

Cruella
26th-September-2006, 04:49 PM
Um, what was this thread about, again?

Don't have the foggiest, i haven't read it!

TheTramp
26th-September-2006, 05:06 PM
Um, what was this thread about, again?

Something about everyone disliking Lindsay. Poor girl :rolleyes:

Tessalicious
26th-September-2006, 05:25 PM
And here we see a perfect example of dreadful forumcraft, circular posting, being patronising to your posting partner, and yanking off onto a tangent. All we need now is for Cruella to start perving over ESG's tag-line...

WittyBird
26th-September-2006, 05:29 PM
All we need now is for Cruella to start perving...

LMFAO Cruella over to you:grin:

Cruella
26th-September-2006, 07:42 PM
And here we see a perfect example of dreadful forumcraft, circular posting, being patronising to your posting partner, and yanking off onto a tangent. All we need now is for Cruella to start perving over ESG's tag-line...

I've only just sussed out what a tagline is :blush:
Only you would know what he's got to be proud of Tessa, so spill!

jiveoholic
27th-September-2006, 01:56 AM
Those who cannot lindy, jive.
Those who cannot jive, line dance.

I can look up to some and down to others!

clevedonboy
27th-September-2006, 12:19 PM
Those who cannot lindy, jive.
Those who cannot jive, line dance.

I can look up to some and down to others!

I'll never look down on line dancers again - having done some WCS classes with a few, they've gone up in my estimation.

Lou
27th-September-2006, 02:10 PM
By the way, in all the WCS lessons I went to, floorcraft was never mentioned once. Shocking.
I've only ever been to 3 WCS classes. And floorcraft was covered in the one taught by David & Lily Barker. :D


I'll never look down on line dancers again..
...Yeah, but that's 'cos most of them are taller than you.... :whistle:

Dreadful Scathe
27th-September-2006, 02:12 PM
And here we see a perfect example of dreadful forumcraft

thanks :)

El Salsero Gringo
27th-September-2006, 03:01 PM
I've only ever been to 3 WCS classes. And floorcraft was covered in the one taught by David & Lily Barker. :D Let's see then - shall we wrap up this cretinous discussion about "which forms of dance teach floorcraft" by agreeing that actually it's the teacher that makes the difference, not the dance form?

clevedonboy
27th-September-2006, 03:02 PM
...Yeah, but that's 'cos most of them are taller than you.... :whistle:

Ahh but when I stop sticking my bum out and stand straight I'm a good 2 inches taller (mind you Matt & Becky would still be much taller)

Anyway if us Lindy Hoppers are supposed to look down on MJers then you must all be really tiny :grin: