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MartinHarper
14th-September-2006, 04:34 PM
A question that's been bothering me for a bit.

Are WCS triple-steps meant to be danced "swung" or "straight"?
Additionally, is WCS meant to be danced to music that is "swung" or "straight" or both?

clevedonboy
14th-September-2006, 04:41 PM
A question that's been bothering me for a bit.

Are WCS triple-steps meant to be danced "swung" or "straight"?
Additionally, is WCS meant to be danced to music that is "swung" or "straight" or both?

swung triples, swing music BUT

in practice a lot f WCS tracks (e.g. love potion number 9) are cha cha cha so are straight leading to straight triples if your feet are following the music. Socially it makes no difference. David F posted something about this WRT competitions though

Lindsay
15th-September-2006, 11:57 AM
Some answers can be found @ www.swingworld.com/articles.htm
Re. straight/swung, depends on the music, both work.

El Salsero Gringo
18th-September-2006, 01:34 PM
swung triples, swing music BUT

in practice a lot f WCS tracks (e.g. love potion number 9) are cha cha chaUnless I am much mistaken the triple step in a cha cha is on a different beat of the bar to the triple step in wcs, though.

straycat
18th-September-2006, 01:44 PM
Unless I am much mistaken the triple step in a cha cha is on a different beat of the bar to the triple step in wcs, though.
You are not even slightly mistaken :wink:

(although a scary number of people don't ever seem to figure it out)

Mr Cool
19th-September-2006, 10:33 AM
You are not even slightly mistaken :wink:

(although a scary number of people don't ever seem to figure it out)

Not as scary as the number of dancers who think triple steps should be danced regardless of what the music is doing.:rofl: :rofl:
:waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

Caro
20th-September-2006, 06:33 PM
Unless I am much mistaken the triple step in a cha cha is on a different beat of the bar to the triple step in wcs, though.

ok I'm probably just going to reveal my own ignorance here (for a start I don't dance chacha and I don't know what MH means by swung or straight - would be nice if somebody explained though :flower: ), but:
- yes you should start WCS by dancing 2 normal steps on 1,2 and then triple on counts 3,4,5 and 6 (assuming it's a 6 beats pattern) but with a mixture of 6/8 beats and more complex patterns then you could end up doing the triple steps at any time, couldn't you?
- Although it is generally a good idea to begin a major phrase with a new pattern (hence step step on 1,2 and triple on 3,4 then it varies with the pattern), there are also other ways of phrasing the music (well if I remember correctly from Jordan and Tatiana musicology DVD:rolleyes: ).
- And anyway you can syncopate at pretty much any time as well to fit something you hear in the music...

So is there really beats to which it is 'incorrect' to triple in west coast :confused: ?

I know I tend to triple a lot even in MJ if the song is bluesy/swingy, I can't help it my feet seem to have their own will ... :blush:

Caro
20th-September-2006, 06:57 PM
just found some stuff that might be useful although fairly technical :rolleyes:
- just in case I wasn't the only one not to know the difference between 'swung' and 'straight' :wink:

In music, a swung note or shuffle note is the rhythmic device in which the duration of the initial note in a pair is augmented and that of the second is diminished. A swing or shuffle rhythm is the rhythm produced by playing repeated pairs of notes in this way. Lilting can refer to swinging, but might also indicate syncopation or other subtle ways of interpreting and shaping musical time.

In some jazz music, especially of the big band era, there is a convention that pairs of written eighth notes are not played equally--as the notation would otherwise be understood--but with the first longer than the second. The first note of each of these pairs is often understood to be twice as long as the second, implying a triplet feel, but in practice the difference is rarely that pronounced (see "amount of swing," below). This is an assumed convention of notation in many styles of jazz, but usually does not apply to jazz before the early 1930s, latin jazz, bebop, or to the work of composers writing in the 1950s or later, unless "swing" is specified in the score.

Notes that are not swung are known as straight notes.

Dorothy
21st-September-2006, 06:52 PM
Interesting reading,not sure if I get it, but I can recognise music that "swings".

I didn't think West Coast Swing music 'swung' though (on the whole)?

timbp
21st-September-2006, 10:37 PM
Interesting reading,not sure if I get it, but I can recognise music that "swings".

I didn't think West Coast Swing music 'swung' though (on the whole)?

Vaguely relevant article: http://www.swing-dancer.com/200603C.html

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-September-2006, 11:48 AM
but with a mixture of 6/8 beats and more complex patterns then you could end up doing the triple steps at any time, couldn't you? ...
So is there really beats to which it is 'incorrect' to triple in west coast :confused: ? No, to the first, yes to the second.

In WCS your triple must be on 3 & 4, or 1 & 2, (or 5 & 6 or 7 & 8 if you're counting up to 8 across 2 bars)

In a ballroom cha cha your triple step is 4 & 1. (or 4 & 5 and 8 & 1 if you count to 8 across two bars)

There's no way in Lindy or WCS (as far as I know) to switch to dancing on the back-beat like you do in a Cha Cha. You can do it in Ceroc and it's downright weird.

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-September-2006, 11:52 AM
I don't know what MH means by swung or straight - would be nice if somebody explained though :flower: Straight triplets: think one-and-two, three-and-four

Swung triplets: think one a-two, three a-four

spindr
22nd-September-2006, 01:03 PM
Straight triplets: think one-and-two, three-and-four

Swung triplets: think one a-two, three a-four
:yeah:

From the mists of memory there is a counting scheme suitable for expressing syncopations.


1 n e n and n a n 2 n e n and n a n 3, etc., etc.

the gap between each "word" is 1/8th of a beat long.

So, "1 and 2, 3" becomes

"1"
wait half a beat
"and"
wait half a beat
"2"
wait a full beat
"3"

this is a "cha-cha-cha" rhythm.

Similarly, "1 a 2, 3" becomes

"1"
wait three-quarters of a beat
"a"
wait a quarter of a beat
"2"
wait a full beat
"3"

this is a "strict" jive triple step.

Obviously, you can play with the timing so that you vary things -- you may need to, to fit the music well.

SpinDr

P.S. Of course, some teachers just get confused and call all sorts of odd timings, e.g. mixing "and" with "a", etc. -- they seem to be frightened of explaining timing. My favourite is when they try to make the steps in a cha-cha-cha take equal amounts of time, i.e. 2/3rds of a beat each, ugggh!
P.P.S. See also http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/dance_styles.html if you like your rhythms in a more musical notation.

David Franklin
22nd-September-2006, 01:21 PM
No, to the first, yes to the second.

In WCS your triple must be on 3 & 4, or 1 & 2, (or 5 & 6 or 7 & 8 if you're counting up to 8 across 2 bars)Can't find the link now, but I'm sure I've seen 1 2 & 3 4 5 & 6 (or possibly 1 2 & 3 4 & 5 6) as an alternative timing for straight eighths music. And of course if the count starts on beat 3, then you'd have 3 4 & 1 2 ... so the "triple" falls in the same place as Cha Cha.
In a ballroom cha cha your triple step is 4 & 1. (or 4 & 5 and 8 & 1 if you count to 8 across two bars). (N.B. I'm saying a triple can fall on 4 & 1 without it being a gross error, not that there's a mode of WCS dancing where tripling on 4 & 1 is the norm).


Straight triplets: think one-and-two, three-and-four

Swung triplets: think one a-two, three a-four
Basically this is correct, but I think you either mean "triple steps" (talking about the dancing) or "eighths" (talking about the music). Triplets have a specific musical meaning and at least to me, the mere mention of them strongly implies the music is "swung".

I don't know if this will help anyone, but here's my understanding of how this all works in terms of the music, and what "eighths", "triplets" and "swung eighths" actually mean. It's probably old hat to most of you, but I was confused for ages about what "eighths" meant, here's a bit of explanation as I understand it:

Firstly, an eighth is not an eighth of a beat, as I naively thought for many years :blush:. It's an eighth of a bar, and as a bar has four beats, it's actually half a beat.

So with straight eighths, we're dividing each beat up into two, and so we have:

Eighths: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---1
Beats:.. 1---&---2-------3---&---4-------1

Now a lot of jazz actually divides each beat up into three, or triplets (so there are 12 triplets in a bar), but the notes only fall on the 1st and 3rd triplets of each note:

Triplets: 1--2--3--4--5--6--7--8--9-10-11-12--1
Beats:... 1-----&--2--------3-----&--4--------1

Now the way you write music with triplets turns out to be a pain in the neck, so the musicians started saying, "let's write the music as if it were with eighths, but we'll know you have to play the "middle" eighths with the same timing as the 3rd triplet in each note. They often called this playing with a triplet feel. So now we have:


Triplets:................... 1--2--3--4--5--6--7--8--9-10-11-12--1
Eighths with a triplet feel: 1-----2--3-----4--5-----6--7-----8--1
Beats:...................... 1-----&--2--------3-----&--4--------1

Now the other way of looking at this is to say we're still playing eighths, it's just that the 'half notes' are shifted, or swung from the halfway point to lie closer to the end note. What's particularly interesting about this is we can now talk about the amount of swing. The "usual" amount of swing recreates that triplet count and so moves the & beat so it lies 2/3 of the way along. But you can have "lightly swung" music where the & beat is just delayed a little bit, or "hard swung" music where the & note lies even closer to the end (though in practice the & beat rarely ends up past about the 3/4 point). Straight eighths music, of course, is not swung at all - the & beats fall exactly half way between the full beats.

(Waits for someone with actual musical knowledge to correct this...)

Tessalicious
22nd-September-2006, 01:45 PM
Can't find the link now, but I'm sure I've seen 1 2 & 3 4 5 & 6 (or possibly 1 2 & 3 4 & 5 6) as an alternative timing for straight eighths music. And of course if the count starts on beat 3, then you'd have 3 4 & 1 2 ... so the "triple" falls in the same place as Cha Cha. My gut response to that is 'Ick' which is not entirely fair, but I can't bear to try and align WCS and Cha-cha musically, they are just so completely different.

If we're talking in terms of WCS, the first level of accepted syncopation (ie anything other than 1 2 3&4 5&6) is 1 2&3&4 5 6 (as taught at Southport in June by Deborah), and the '&'s are accented physically because they're different. I'm sure there are others, and the one you suggest works too.

However, it is different from the way a Cha-Cha triple step fits across a bar for the simple reason that the cha-cha-cha on 4&1 is supposed to be there, it's specified by the music and the dance doesn't work without it, unlike the WCS 'alternative timing' which is a syncopation and as such feels completely different from the set rhythm that fits into the dance.

(for an example of why just the fact that it is syncopation with attitude rather than just meant to be there, compare Bach with jazz)

All the other stuff, while I'm not sure how correct it is musically (the system you use is the American note-naming system of quarter and eighth notes) is probably quite a useful way of explaining it. The problem occurs with triplets when you have to battle with the concept of the fact that all of a sudden you have 12 eighth-notes in one bar.

Of course, the actual answer to this paradox is that they are no longer eighth notes, because they have been shortened - rather think of them as parts of beats, and while 'straight' music has 2 parts per beats, swung music has 3, where you step on the first and sometimes third only.

David Franklin
22nd-September-2006, 02:24 PM
My gut response to that is 'Ick' which is not entirely fair, but I can't bear to try and align WCS and Cha-cha musically, they are just so completely different.Um, I did point out that all I was saying was doing a WCS triple with the same timing as Cha Cha was not automatically wrong, not that you should be doing it all the time (i.e. trying to align WCS and Cha Cha musically).


If we're talking in terms of WCS, the first level of accepted syncopation (ie anything other than 1 2 3&4 5&6) is 1 2&3&4 5 6 (as taught at Southport in June by Deborah), and the '&'s are accented physically because they're different.The timing variation I gave was apparently suggested by Mario Robau as appropriate when dancing to "funky" WCS music, and he's about as authoritative a source as it gets(*). Yes, I find it weird, and no, I'm not saying it has the same feel as Cha-Cha. However it shows that you could end up doing a triple on 4&1 in WCS. (Though I don't think it "feels" like a normal triple, because the "pulse" on 4 changes the feel).

(*) Of course, the fact that it was someone quoting him, in a link I can no longer find, is about as unauthoritative as it gets...

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-September-2006, 02:45 PM
So, um, basically, what we're saying is that the triple step in WCS and the triple step in Cha Cha are on different beats?

Keith J
22nd-September-2006, 03:15 PM
This is a very interesting discussion!
I guess an added complication is the Follow in WCS is by default, very slightly behind the Lead on 1, catching up on the 'and', hits the '2' on queue, and then is into the triples. (3 & 4) - on a 6 beat basic. Its a difficult concept to deal with as many beginner and improver Follows start on 1 without a lead initiated and they should be 'weighting backwards if anywhere' and 'waiting' for the lead body to move backwards before coming forward. This is a huge contribution to the look and feel of WCS.

Would the natural progression to the discussion to be to look at what is going on between the 1 and 6? If its playtime, you can massage what is going on here. After all what we want to add is style and interpretation, and not do triples all the time.

I have thought for a while particularly in WCS, its a format and structure to give the body natural timing, i.e. a foundation which can always be relied upon to work when all else fails. So it becomes a metronome.

The techniques once solid allow bleeding of the time, and I would guess this is what interests us visually in the dance?
Some sound advice from Kyle and Rob Cordoba was think of the timing all in 2's and do not get hung up on the 6 and 8 packs when trying to dance with breaks and hesitations.

Here's Skippy's defn:
COUNT - ROLLING COUNT (Rolling Triple) -
Rolling count breaks each beat of the music into 3 separate parts: "&a1 - &a2 - &a3 - &a4" (through 8 beats of music). Musicians call this a “Dancers Count.” They refer to this form as “Swingin’ it” - which has to do with the "feeling" of the dance and not a particular KIND of dance. Rolling Count is the secret to an upper level dance performance. Rolling Count produces what we call "3 dimensional" dance.

Msfab
22nd-September-2006, 04:21 PM
Wow this is all so much clearer!:rolleyes:

Alice
22nd-September-2006, 07:38 PM
Wow this is all so much clearer!:rolleyes:
I'll second that:) Great explanation KeithJ!!! :respect:

Sheepman
22nd-September-2006, 10:18 PM
Perhaps a few pictures will help...

If you look at the wave form of a cha cha track, the beats are regular, it's not surprising that novices can't tell which count they should be triple stepping on!

The second wave form is for the Dynamic Breakers "Pride & Joy" strictly a blues track, but definitely one that swings, I've just shown a single triple here, which clearly shows that the interval between the "1 and" is longer than the interval between "and 2"

The third one is from Ciara's "1 2 step" definitely a great WCS track, but it doesn't "swing", the intervals (which are harder to make out - the letters below the wave correspond with the timing of the lyrics) are roughly equal.

I'm not about to take issue with Skippy Blair (!) but I think it is perfectly possible for WCS to feel great to many types of music. OK a cha cha expert will feel more comfortable doing cha when the music is right, does it have to be hip hop if I want to dance to modern RnB? But WCS is still a relatively new dance, and like MJ, it's adaptable, as can be seen by the development of Swango & Swamba... http://www.usaswingnet.com/swango.htm (were Amir and Cat beaten to it on this one? :really: )

I hope that helps someone, 'cos sorting out the waves took ages, and has given me a sore head!

Greg

Lynn
22nd-September-2006, 11:31 PM
Question - as a follow, do I need to know this sort of information? I used to think it was possible to just 'feel' the music - but I think I 'feel' the cha cha timing incorrectly (as in on 1 rather than on 2). So I guess I do need to think about it.

When the local beginners lindy teacher was telling the class that the triple in lindy had the same timing as cha cha, I knew it didn't sit right with the music but wasn't sure why in terms of fractions of beats etc, I just knew the timing was different.

I'd love to learn WCS (and be able to cha cha on 2), so I guess I'm going to have to think about all this, but how much do I need to get into theory, and how much can I just listen to the music and 'find my way'? (I know that depends on musical ability, I can hear things easily enough in music but have never studied the structure behind eg why music 'swings' or 'rocks'.)

Alice
22nd-September-2006, 11:38 PM
Question - as a follow, do I need to know this sort of information? I used to think it was possible to just 'feel' the music - but I think I 'feel' the cha cha timing incorrectly (as in on 1 rather than on 2). So I guess I do need to think about it.

When the local beginners lindy teacher was telling the class that the triple in lindy had the same timing as cha cha, I knew it didn't sit right with the music but wasn't sure why in terms of fractions of beats etc, I just knew the timing was different.

I'd love to learn WCS (and be able to cha cha on 2), so I guess I'm going to have to think about all this, but how much do I need to get into theory, and how much can I just listen to the music and 'find my way'? (I know that depends on musical ability, I can hear things easily enough in music but have never studied the structure behind eg why music 'swings' or 'rocks'.)
I think, as with many things, that a little technical knowledge can enhance your dance (ooh look that rhymes!)- an understanding of why/how it works can help you play with the rules:whistle:

However, the downside is that until that knowledge becomes automatic, there's a period of intense frustration cos you suddenly have to think about something you were doing automatically:tears: :tears:

Lynn
22nd-September-2006, 11:52 PM
I think, as with many things, that a little technical knowledge can enhance your dance (ooh look that rhymes!)- an understanding of why/how it works can help you play with the rules:whistle: I think it would help.

However, the downside is that until that knowledge becomes automatic, there's a period of intense frustration cos you suddenly have to think about something you were doing automatically:tears: :tears:I'll admit to having been really lazy about the music side of things, because I haven't had to work too hard at it. I really should think about it a bit more.

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-September-2006, 01:51 AM
Perhaps a few pictures will help...

If you look at the wave form of a cha cha track, the beats are regular, it's not surprising that novices can't tell which count they should be triple stepping on!Remember that a Cha Cha (usually? always?) has a clave beat (on the 1, 2and, 4, 6, 7 for a 3/2 clave, for instance) which gives it a very different feel to a WCS or R'n'B track.
but I think I 'feel' the cha cha timing incorrectly (as in on 1 rather than on 2).Listen for the clave and all will become clear. (example: listen to Michael Buble's "Save the Last dance for me": the clave (2/3, this time) starts 48 seconds in, and it's the tick-tick percussion sound.)

timbp
23rd-September-2006, 10:48 PM
A question that's been bothering me for a bit.

Are WCS triple-steps meant to be danced "swung" or "straight"?
Additionally, is WCS meant to be danced to music that is "swung" or "straight" or both?

Dance to the music you like, and let the music dicate whether you dance straight or swing.

Just had a day of workshops with Myles and Tessa (absolutely fantastic teachers). One session was musicology.

In one part of that class, they explained a bit about what "swing" means, then played 3 songs, all suitable for dancing WCS, for us to listen to the difference.

There was a swing song, to which one would dance (WCS 6 count) 1 2 3 a4 5 a6

A pop song (straight): 1 2 3 & 4 5 & 6

And a hip-hop: 1 2 a3 4 a5 6 or 1 2 a3 4 5 & 6

They did say you can dance straight to everything, but obviously it's better to match what the music is doing.

I hope I haven't seriously distorted what they were saying (I'm certain the bit about dancing to the music is right).

Mr Cool
24th-September-2006, 09:57 AM
Well ladies and Gents its all very well talking about musical phrases syncopations and the like. :wink:
However at the end of the day

It don't mean a thing (if you aint got that SWING) (Duke Ellington 1932):yeah:


Just feel the music and dance. :yeah:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

Minnie M
24th-September-2006, 11:26 AM
It don't mean a thing (if you aint got that SWING) (Duke Ellington 1932):yeah:
"Counting time ? The only count I know is Count Basie" Dawn Hampton (http://www.laughingcatarts.com/DHBframe.html) vertern singer and dancer from the Savoy Club (http://www.sacramentoswing.com/dawn_hampton.html) (often at local Swing weekends and at Herrange )

Caro
3rd-May-2007, 07:43 PM
Are WCS triple-steps meant to be danced "swung" or "straight"?


I don't think there's really being a satisfactory answer on this question, apart from 'do what the music says, i.e. swung triples if the music swings'.

I got an answer by Robert Royston last week-end (feel free to disagree :devil: - but personally I'll take his advice on board), so here goes:

On straight music (most of the music we west coast to), your triples should be swung in oder to accent the downbeats (linger on the downbeat).
It goes 'half half hold' if you want. 'hold' being on the downbeat. (that's the words he used to show me).
It also means that you will have more time to roll your foot through the downbeat.
Using rolling count it goes: 5 (step='half') and (step='half') a six (step='hold'). I think :nice:

So I guess you swung your triples in an opposite sort of way as in lindy (where you swing you do 5 (step) and a (step) six (step) - is that right?)

Geordieed
4th-May-2007, 09:45 AM
On straight music (most of the music we west coast to), your triples should be swung in oder to accent the downbeats (linger on the downbeat).
It goes 'half half hold' if you want. 'hold' being on the downbeat. (that's the words he used to show me).
It also means that you will have more time to roll your foot through the downbeat.
Using rolling count it goes: 5 (step='half') and (step='half') a six (step='hold'). I think :nice:

So I guess you swung your triples in an opposite sort of way as in lindy (where you swing you do 5 (step) and a (step) six (step) - is that right?)


Six is an upbeat though. The timing of WCS triples come in two different types. It depends on the music being danced to. The triple is devided into three or four sections. Basically it is the difference between old and new Swing. We dance in divisions of three for the modern style of Swing that we see today because of the music played. It will revert back to four with a delayed rhythm on the triple for old Swing music. When learning this the lecturer danced both rhythms to both kinds of music and showed how wrong it looks when you dance opposing styles.

Caro
4th-May-2007, 10:34 AM
Six is an upbeat though.

:eek: of course it is, sorry - got confused with backbeat I think !


On straight music (most of the music we west coast to), your triples should be swung in oder to accent the downbeats (linger on the downbeat).
It goes 'half half hold' if you want. 'hold' being on the downbeat. (that's the words he used to show me).
It also means that you will have more time to roll your foot through the downbeat.


Please read UPBEAT here instead - I'm talking about the EVEN counts: 2,4,6,8. Apologies for messing up and if I have confused anybody :blush:



It will revert back to four with a delayed rhythm on the triple for old Swing music. When learning this the lecturer danced both rhythms to both kinds of music and showed how wrong it looks when you dance opposing styles.

I think it would really help me to see that. Are you coming to Southport Ed ?

angelique
4th-May-2007, 10:58 AM
And there was me thinking that I had kinda got my head around this west coast swing stuff.......:confused: :confused:

Oh well, back to my box of jaffa cakes and a black n white movie...something I DO understand! :wink:

Geordieed
4th-May-2007, 11:26 AM
Hi Caro,


yes I am coming along to Southport. Look forward to catching up with you there. Southport this summer has the buzz about it from the last time Jordan and Tatiana came along. There are going to be quite a collection of dancers and some of the Line crowd have expressed that they are coming because of J&T making it over. The standard should be really high...

MartinHarper
4th-May-2007, 02:23 PM
It is the difference between old and new Swing.

Just to clarify, by "new Swing", do you mean "new West Coast Swing music", and thus music that doesn't swing?

Crossa
7th-May-2007, 01:04 AM
I got an answer by Robert Royston last week-end (feel free to disagree :devil: - but personally I'll take his advice on board), so here goes:

On straight music (most of the music we west coast to), your triples should be swung in oder to accent the downbeats (linger on the downbeat).
It goes 'half half hold' if you want. 'hold' being on the downbeat. (that's the words he used to show me).

Erm... It sounded like "half half whole" when he explained it to me, as in using the whole beat!:flower:

Caro
7th-May-2007, 10:27 AM
Erm... It sounded like "half half whole" when he explained it to me, as in using the whole beat!:flower:

cheers Crossa :flower:
but I'm pretty sure he did say 'hold'... Paul F was there (taking notes :flower: ) and that's what he wrote too!
Hold, whole... I'm sure it works to the same effect :wink: