Support in dips

[Tessalicious]

I know posting threads about actual dancing is practically illegal on the forum these days, but...

I have a question (more out of curiousity than need, as I very rarely lead the kinds of moves I'm asking about).

On Saturday night at Hammersmith, I danced with a particular guy I'd maybe danced with once or twice before, but didn't know other than that, and he put me into a few leans and dips. The leans were ok (I didn't feel like I was going to collapse in the middle from lack of support) but the dips were strange, because the support came from one hand on my shoulder blade (I think) and one hand on the back of my head! This felt really weird (not very supportive and a bit too intimate) to me, even though I've danced with a few (forumite) men who do the hair-pulling thing and that never felt insecure, even though the hand on the head wasn't for support in those cases.

So, my question is two-fold:

- for the dips and drops aficionados: what is the technically correct way to support a lady in a dip where her position means that she cannot take her full weight, but she is still within arms reach (i.e. a 45 degree angle to the floor)?

and

- for the ladies: where do you feel most comfortable being supported or most uncomfortable being supported, and does the hand on the back of the head bother you (whether or not full support is being provided) when it is a relatively unfamiliar lead?

[Andreas]

That is a question that cannot be answered generically. If you are keen to go through variations of dips then ask next time you see me. There are very different dips that all have different holding points. The only thing that they have in common is that you are off balance and need core strength or body tension. The better your body tension is, the easier and less scary you will find most if not all dips. I quite often have a hand behind the lady's head when I do dips in freestyle. This does not look as elegant as w/o the hand there but is a safety measure. I have danced with a lot of ladies that did throw their head back uncontrolled, which through the balance of the pose off and also could unpleasantly coincide with me bringing her back up. The effect in the latter case would be a rather hefty jerk in her neck.

If you are uncertain about a move that the guy has put you in you have two things to do, or try:
1. Place your inside foot in a position where you can take as much of your own weight as possible. (not all dips allow for that)
2. Find a place on the guy's body that you can support yourself on, like thighs or hips. NOT the neck! (again, not all dips allow for that)

There are no doubt quite a few dips where you can do sod all but either go through or dive out. Quite frankly diving out of a dip is in many cases relatively simple ;) If you go through with a dip make sure you keep your body tense: it is easier to bring up a board than a sack of spuds. :na: Also, think of ways that you could rescue yourself should the balance of a move go off. Just like any guy should always think of ways to make an emergency save of a tricky move, so should the ladies spend some time to picture body turns that could reduce the strain on the guy, if he had bitten off more than he can chew.

[Ickle Chick'n]

I know posting threads about actual dancing is practically illegal on the forum these days, but...

I have a question (more out of curiousity than need, as I very rarely lead the kinds of moves I'm asking about).

On Saturday night at Hammersmith, I danced with a particular guy I'd maybe danced with once or twice before, but didn't know other than that, and he put me into a few leans and dips. The leans were ok (I didn't feel like I was going to collapse in the middle from lack of support) but the dips were strange, because the support came from one hand on my shoulder blade (I think) and one hand on the back of my head! This felt really weird (not very supportive and a bit too intimate) to me, even though I've danced with a few (forumite) men who do the hair-pulling thing and that never felt insecure, even though the hand on the head wasn't for support in those cases.

So, my question is two-fold:

- for the dips and drops aficionados: what is the technically correct way to support a lady in a dip where her position means that she cannot take her full weight, but she is still within arms reach (i.e. a 45 degree angle to the floor)?

and

- for the ladies: where do you feel most comfortable being supported or most uncomfortable being supported, and does the hand on the back of the head bother you (whether or not full support is being provided) when it is a relatively unfamiliar lead?

hey chick, I knows what ya talking about. However I don't think there are set rules on which is the best way (generally) as every dip and drop is different but I know that some teachers tech for the guy to put his hand behind the ladies head when doing seducers etc (and others where they can get the hand there) the theory being it's something between you and anyone who might crash into you, a safety precaution if you like.

I think the thing we can't tell from your post that might make the difference is where and how his hand was placed on your head, and whether he was one of those chaps that you feel is a little...creepy maybe? I agree it could feel a little too intimate if you don't know the person but I suppose if they've been taught that way they might not realise that.

That said I remeber dancing with Captain fantastic at Rockbots once (when I didn't know him) and he did a dip and supported me in much this way and I felt totally secure and as it was a fairly busy floor I also felt he was looking after me, I remeber commenting to others afterwards about that. :flower:

Dunno if that really answers your questions but...

[Alice]

In my experience there are different types of guys who do this:

There are some guys who put a hand on the lady's head during a dip occasionally to protect her (ie guard her from another dancer who just got slightly too close to her head). Every now and then I've been grateful for it- but I don't like it much, feels way too intimate!!

And there are some who seem to do it every single time they do that kind of dip. I can only assume that it's down to their own lack of confidence- kind of covering all bases and being over-cautious. I commend the care they're taking... but it's probably unnecessary.

Then there are the creeps. Just stay clear:whistle:

[Gadget]

Personally I support the back of the rib cage - whether this is below the shoulder, on it, the middle of the back, ... etc. Any lower and there is a possability that they bend backwards. Any higher and I may force the neck forwards. Neither is particulary plesant.

I do use a hand on the back of the neck on occasion, but it's mainly for re-assurance, styling or to position my arm so that the follower can use it as an anchor. Safety? I don't dip/seduce unless I think it's safe.

[robd]

I am sure that either in intermediate classes or at a dips, leans, seducer workshop last year we were taught for certain dips to put one hand behind the ladies head so that we could move it out of the way quickly and easily should Space Invaders suddenly appear.

[Lee]

I don't think this guys actions are out of the ordinary, I do a Wurlitzer wrap in, into a right handed seducer and use the left hand as a backup (in case she slips away) or as a block to someone getting too close or just to stop the head being thrown back (which would send me off balance a bit).

Better to be more supportive than less.

Lee

[TA Guy]

It's just evolution. A safer method to dance. Hand on head is definitely the way it is taught down here at Mojive. If you pushed me, I could prolly work out when all the teachers went from the old method to the 'hand on head' method. It happened virtually overnight :)
Reason given is safety of course. I guess it's a bit like driving, You may be a brilliant driver, but there are always idiots on the road. Whilst you maybe perfect and never do drops etc in dancerous places, you never know when some twat is gonna do a columbian first move walk with a dip/drop on the end and plonk his ladies head somewhere she would rather he didn't.

It makes a lot of sense when you consider which various parts of the body you'd want protected the most. Leaving out those places where a hand would be completely inappropriate of course :)

[Allez-Cat]

... men who do the hair-pulling thing ...

Urch. Can someone explain/expand/expound?

[CJ]

Urch. Can someone explain/expand/expound?

If another couple have invaded your dance space, or bumped into you: the socially acceptable response is to get the girl with whom you are dancing to pull the other girls hair.

Bonus points if it's during a dip.:grin:

[Princess Fi]

If another couple have invaded your dance space, or bumped into you: the socially acceptable response is to get the girl with whom you are dancing to pull the other girls hair.

Bonus points if it's during a dip.:grin:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Remind me never to dance anywhere near you CJ!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Caro]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Remind me never to dance anywhere near you CJ!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

well it looks like the safest option is actually to dance with him then...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[littlewiggle]

[SIZE="1"]
- for the ladies: where do you feel most comfortable being supported or most uncomfortable being supported, and does the hand on the back of the head bother you (whether or not full support is being provided) when it is a relatively unfamiliar lead?

I personally don't like the hand on the back of the head and I hate the knee in the back type 'support' too!

[Gav]

I think the scariest thing is that there are so many different ways of teaching it.
Not about support, more about teaching consistency, but...
I was dancing with a woman of about the same experience/ability as me (and I had checked it was OK to do dips and leans), led her into a seducer the way that I had been taught and she told me that she wasn't expecting it because my lead was all wrong. Turned out she's just been in a lesson where it was taught differently.

[Gadget]

... she told me that she wasn't expecting it because my lead was all wrong.:confused::what: This worries me.

She is used to/wants to expect a dip - why? By saying the lead is wrong I read that as she dosn't want to be led into it - she wants a signal that she can respond to with the appropriate actions. And this is dangerously close to followers putting themselves into dips and expecting the lead to handle it.

A "wrong" lead is only 'wrong' if it dosn't lead your partner where you intended them to go. It is not necessaraly inaccurate, the force applied may be technically correct, but if your partner does not 'understand' your lead, then it's wrong.

[Gav]

:confused::what: This worries me.

She is used to/wants to expect a dip - why? By saying the lead is wrong I read that as she dosn't want to be led into it - she wants a signal that she can respond to with the appropriate actions. And this is dangerously close to followers putting themselves into dips and expecting the lead to handle it.

A "wrong" lead is only 'wrong' if it dosn't lead your partner where you intended them to go. It is not necessaraly inaccurate, the force applied may be technically correct, but if your partner does not 'understand' your lead, then it's wrong.

Well that makes me feel a little better 'cos she did end up in the right place and the move worked perfectly, she just wasn't too happy that it wan't the way she'd been taught!

[Daisy Chain]

I personally don't like the hand on the back of the head

Me neither. Messes up my hair. Don't these men realise that I've spent a whole 10 mins getting it looking this perfect?

Daisy

(A Coiffeured Little Flower)

[Green-eyed Monsta]

Find a place on the guy's body that you can support yourself on, like thighs or hips. NOT the neck! (again, not all dips allow for that)

I have certainly done this, but I just wondered how do you men feel about us ladies "attaching" ourselves to your various body parts? (WittyBird get your mind OUT of the gutter!!!)

Is it generally ok to attach an arm around the man's ribs or is there a better place we should be aiming for? :flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

I have certainly done this, but I just wondered how do you men feel about us ladies "attaching" ourselves to your various body parts? (WittyBird get your mind OUT of the gutter!!!)

Is it generally ok to attach an arm around the man's ribs or is there a better place we should be aiming for? :flower:I think I'd need to try it out with any particular move that you had in mind to be sure - but shoulder blades, upper arms, a spread hand across the guy's back - they're all good solid places.

[Andreas]

I think I'd need to try it out with any particular move that you had in mind to be sure - but shoulder blades, upper arms, a spread hand across the guy's back - they're all good solid places.

:yeah:

The lead needs to be aware where the follower bends naturally. This also applies the other way around. As a follower you need to make sure that you don't throw the lead off balance by attaching yourself to a body part that changes the centre of gravity significantly. He goes down, you go down and you are most likely to be his cushion. :D

[NZ Monkey]

:yeah:
Just make sure you don't grab onto his shoulders or behind his neck. Any lower on the guys body is usually close enough to his centre of mass to not cause him to topple over, or at least to not have to strain to prevent from toppling in my experience and tends to look better anyway. At least that's if he's doing his job right.

Not all dips allow for that of course, and some are actually easier if you don't hold on at all with your hands (I'm thinking laybacks here in particular).

[El Salsero Gringo]

:yeah:
Just make sure you don't grab onto his shoulders or behind his neck. I don't think I agree. What is more important is not to do anything suddenly, or jerkily. As I say, I'd want to check with any particular move, but the back of someone's neck or their shoulder can be a very secure anchor point. As long as the force is applied smoothly, the man is expecting it, and can brace against it.

[NZ Monkey]

I don't think I agree. What is more important is not to do anything suddenly, or jerkily. As I say, I'd want to check with any particular move, but the back of someone's neck or their shoulder can be a very secure anchor point. As long as the force is applied smoothly, the man is expecting it, and can brace against it.Hmmmm, depends on the dip I'd say. Definitely agree about the jerky point.

In hindsight I can think of a few dips where holding onto the shoulder from around behind the guys back is a good idea, but in these cases the force being applied on the shoulder is virtually straight down (i.e through the guys centre of mass - so it doesn't risk tipping him).

[Wave Dancer]

I have noticed since dancing over here, that generally guys don't seem to do as much dipping, dropping etc except with the girls they regularly dance with. I love dips, leans etc so I'm usually asking _them_ if they know or will do some.

I generally try and just take all my own weight, keep my balance (this largely depends on where you have your feet before the move begins), use the momentum of the move and know that I have a shoulder, waist, hand to hold onto while going down and coming up then I seem to be ok.

If I can take as much responsibility for the dip as possible, then this also increases the guy's confidence. Because of this, I'm not afaid to do dips or drops with anyone as I know I'm the one in control. I tend to throw myself into dips sometimes (which isn't good for the scare factor for the guy) but only because I know I'm in control.

If a guy is supporting me around the head, then I just accept this as part of the way he was taught or as the extra support that he prefers to give and feel happy that he cares about the safety needed in the move.

[Alice]

I tend to throw myself into dips sometimes (which isn't good for the scare factor for the guy) but only because I know I'm in control.

If a guy is supporting me around the head, then I just accept this as part of the way he was taught or as the extra support that he prefers to give and feel happy that he cares about the safety needed in the move.
Being in control is good, I agree... but I don't think it's ever good to "throw" yourself into a dip- for one thing, you can injure the guy doing it:eek:

[modchick]

- for the ladies: where do you feel most comfortable being supported or most uncomfortable being supported, and does the hand on the back of the head bother you (whether or not full support is being provided) when it is a relatively unfamiliar lead?

I don't like dips where they are supported around your neck - simply because after already having other issues with neck injuries (away from dancing) I find it can be uncomfortable and painful - esp if I try to over compensate on these types of drops!

Modchick

[Dynamo]

I don't like dips where they are supported around your neck - simply because after already having other issues with neck injuries (away from dancing) I find it can be uncomfortable and painful - esp if I try to over compensate on these types of drops!

Modchick

As a guy, I would not like to take the ladies weight through her neck. Full support must be through the back or her arms. ( ok.. the crucifix should for me take her weight through her shoulders)

I may place my hand or forearm there, as my upper arm and shouder can form a barrier if other dancers suddenly move close to my partner.

I may also place a little support behind the head which holds only a fraction of the partners head weight, so once she is lowred to a desired level , i may gently lower the hand below the head as an invitation to tilt the head back sligtly, knowing it is by invitation and i will watch her safety. This simulates a small ripple of the body

[El Salsero Gringo]

As a guy, I would not like to take the ladies weight through her neck. Personal preference is fine, but I know one move (I think it's called a Neck Swish - I suppose I'd categorise it as an advanced-level 'dip') that uses the back of the lady's neck as the only support. It looks fantastic, and the feedback from the partner I've learnt it with is that it is secure. The only slight source of difficulty for us was that occasionally she'd tilt her head a little too far back and my fingers would get crushed between skull and spine.

[peppercorn]

I.ve done these kind of dips before in classes but to be honest I think you really need to be able to trust your partner to do this. I wouldn't let just anyone do a one armed dip, Thats just personal preference. I think these could be dangerous if your not expecting it or you are too tense. I've hurt myself before 'cos a guy forced me into a drop I didn't know! :sick: