Dance or dancer?

[cerocmetro]

Here is one I thought I would extend from a debate going on in NZ at the moment between the franchisees.

I am asking you to put yourself in the position of the organiser, franchisee whatever.

Consider the majority of people who come along to Ceroc.
Consider what a dancer is.

Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance? I know there are other reasons, but I am interested in this distinction.

But then when people start to dance, if they do, do they then want to become dancers, if they are not already, or do they want to dance more, if they ever did?

Adam currently at 35,000 feet, not slept 32 hours and 9 hours away from teaching a class :sick:

[bigdjiver]

...Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance? I know there are other reasons, but I am interested in this distinction.Perhaps you might have a word with Mr. Ellard then, because I think that he should be very interested in that distinction too.

I tried to persuade him to alter the membership form to have tick boxes to ask such questions as whether "New" members had attended dance classes before, had done any variety of MJ before, had attended Ceroc before.

To my mind this information is vital to understanding how well Ceroc retains "raw" recruits, how good it is at attracting members from competitors, from other dance styles, and separating newcomers to Ceroc from old members rejoining or joining from other areas.

IMO Ceroc should be deriving a huge competitive advantage from data-mining its database and it is not collecting enough reliable information to do so.

[NZ Monkey]

Well, coming from a New Zealander who’s just moved over to the UK…

My feeling from NZ is that the punters are there to learn to dance (I know I was, and most of my classmates there were on the same wavelength I was) and to enjoy themselves doing that and practicing. In the UK the vibe feels the other way around – that people are there to have fun dancing first and foremost and that learning to dance ‘’properly’’ is a side effect of that.

This was one of the first things that really struck me as a difference here (call it culture shock if you want). Whether that’s a difference just between the evolution and teaching of Ceroc in different hemispheres or more of a deep seated Australasia/UK cultural difference I’m not sure. If I had to guess I’d run with the latter, but I haven’t really been here long enough to speak with any authority on that subject so please take that with a grain of salt.

Possibly not what you were after but it’s a slow day at work….

[under par]

Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance? I know there are other reasons, but I am interested in this distinction.

:

From the perspective of an organiser.. the punter wants to came and learn to dance.

From the perspective of a punter ... they would also like to learn to dance.

To learn to "be a dancer" correlates with a higher form of learning.

You learn to ride a horse before you learn to "be a jockey" or "showjumper".

You learn how "to fly a plane" before you learn what is required "to be a pilot".

Being a "dancer " has connatations of being within a dance troupe or theatre group or further education for fine tuning dance skills.

To become a dancer I would suggest a high degree of learning is required whereas to learn to dance or a dance takes far less learning.

Where as to learn to dance has a more mundane feel about it you will be taught steps / moves to this or that style of dance.

Back to your original question if any organiser believes punters turn up to Ceroc classes under the misapprehension that they are going to be taught to be a dancer... then the organiser is as deluded as the punters with that belief.

[whitetiger1518]

I definitely come for the fun of the dances and the good company of other similarly addicted people :grin: .

If I get to be a better dancer then I will love it even more, and hopefully won't embarrass myself quite so much by missing my cues :blush:

:cheers:

Whitetiger

[Andreas]

It'd be to dance for me. I have next to no aspiration of becoming a dancer. :cheers:

Since I believe this accounts for the majority of all people, I'd concentrate on that aspect as a teacher/organiser.

[MartinHarper]

Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance?

To meet hot chicks.

[DavidB]

I wouldn't like to define the difference between 'someone doing a dance' and a 'dancer'. Despite that, I'm pretty sure that all MJ classes (at least all the ones I've seen) just teach people how to do the dance.

There are a handful of people who do MJ I would class as dancers. Some are natural dancers. Others have trained in other dance forms. I don't think any became dancers purely from doing MJ.

But I think now there is a possibility that someone could do this - ie learn enough about dancing from MJ to be classed as a dancer. However they would have to go to several different teachers, as I don't believe any one teacher has that level of knowledge yet.

[tsh]

If I get to be a better dancer then I will love it even more, and hopefully won't embarrass myself quite so much by missing my cues :blush:


I think this something that the original question ignores.

I originally came primarily to learn to dance, but now that I come in order to dance I am also interested in improving or widening the dancing that I do.

Sean

[Beowulf]

truth be told.. neither.

I'm out there to get some exercise , meet interesting people and have a bit of a social life and a laugh.

the fact that it's dance is secondary. however to answer the original poster's question as best I can I'd say I'm going to learn to dance rather than to become a dancer.

[Dizzy]

IMHO I would say both.

I know that I go out dancing to have fun and meet people but every dance that I have is increasing my skill as a dancer and I am learning along the way.

I agree with UP in that to become a dancer, you must first dance to improve therefore both statements are true.

[Lory]

I don't know why but to me, the word 'Dancer' conjures up in my mind, someone who dances for a living

[Alice]

I don't know why but to me, the word 'Dancer' conjures up in my mind, someone who dances for a living
Yeah, me too. Thus, I'd rather say that I go to dancing to learn to dance- the social stuff is a big bonus:wink: but certainly not the sole reason to go for me.

In general, I'd say that the vast majority of attendees to MJ classes/events would be there to dance- they go for social reasons or to get fit, or simply to get out of the house. Getting better at dancing is an added side effect...

This emphasis on "just dancing" appears to be particularly noticable at weekenders. In the UK, most people I've spoken to go to a weekender to socialize and to freestyle, rarely if ever attending any of the workshops. This is reflected in the all-night (or nearly) freestyles at Southport and other weekenders. In contrast, a normal weekender with one of the Sydney companies will turn the music off at 1am (a "late" finish)- but nearly everyone will attend the workshops during the day.

[straycat]

Please delete, too far off topic :)

I read your original post before you edited it & replaced it with this, and was starting to reply when you removed it! :tears:

Since when was being off topic considered a problem on this forum? Was looking forward to the ensuing 'debate'... ruined, all ruined :whistle:

[Flat_Eric]

Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance?

I don't think this distinction is the appropriate way to answer the question. Please let me offer an alternative analysis that uses a standard psychology grid. The tool used is called the 6 human needs. it is taught and used by Steven Covey and Anthony Robbins in their corporate motivation seminars.

Summary of the tool: human beings are driven by 6 basic needs that they must have in their lives. These needs are as fundamental as breathing, eating, drinking and sleeping.

The 6 needs are:
1- Need for certainty: the stable aspects of your life
2- Need for uncertainty: taste for variety, mystery, change, surprises
3- Need for significance: be one and only, different from anyone else
4- Need for connection: the ability to connect with others
5- Need for growth: the ability to expand oneself, to stretch oneself
6- need for contribution: the ability to help others grow, to make the world a better place.

One of the consecutive ideas of this theory is that when someone does something consistently, s/he finds several of these needs addressed by the behaviour or activity. If you can identify what these needs are, you have a very powerful advertising tool to attract and retain people (probably what the franchisees are looking for).

Applying this to Ceroc, my analysis is that you need to distinguish:
- The gender: male and female
- The motivation: it's not the same when you start Ceroc and when you become a regular (probably the point that eludes people involved in MJ related business, with as a consequence, a specific communication per profile).

So:

MEN:
====
Beginner profile: mainly interested in:
- Connection: taken by a friend, wants to enhance his / her social life
- Significance: hope to reveal his inner John Travolta. Envies the skill of confirmed dancers, on the floor and in the reactions they manage to get from the other gender; compete / teach
- Growth: learning something new; becoming a taxi dancer

Regular profile: mainly interested in:
- Significance: Look at my moves. Me me me me me me me!!! Pushing others on the floor
- Connection: in a positive way, having great dances. In a negative way: sleazing around and pretending that women like it....
- Variety: different moves at each class; different dancers and dances every night
- Certainty: the polished Ceroc format in a known venue / environment; dancing with regulars
- Contribution: helping newbies

WOMEN:
======

Beginner profile: mainly interested in:
- Connection: the biggest driver for most women by far
- Significance: getting attention from the other gender

Regular profile: mainly interested in:
- Connection: as women are more congruent than men, the priority of their needs remains pretty much the same + women tend not to go dancing alone. That's another component that reinforces the connection bit
- Significance: becoming a skilled dancer; getting attention from the other gender; being able to express their feminity in the dance and the dancing context; compete / teach
- Certainty: the polished Ceroc format in a known venue / environment; dancing with regulars

FE

[Zebra Woman]

Interesting post FE.

I would just add two things on the womens' side

WOMEN:
======

Beginner profile: mainly interested in:
- Connection: the biggest driver for most women by far
- Significance: getting attention from the other gender
- Growth: most women want to become a better dancer

Regular profile: mainly interested in:
- Connection: as women are more congruent than men, the priority of their needs remains pretty much the same + women tend not to go dancing alone. That's another component that reinforces the connection bit
- Significance: becoming a skilled dancer; getting attention from the other gender; being able to express their feminity in the dance and the dancing context; compete / teach
- Certainty: the polished Ceroc format in a known venue / environment; dancing with regulars
-VARIETY!: We love it too! the joy of an amazing dance with a complete stranger is one our ultimate pleasures. IMO This experience is particulary potent for women rather than men - as it's the 'strange man' who is leading the dance.

I am fascinated by how different the dancing experience seems to be for men and women (or leaders and followers :rolleyes: )............. Is Andy Mc G still here?

ZW

[Cruella]

- Growth: most women want to become a better dancer


But do they want to become better dancers for their own acheivement or so they get asked to dance more?:devil:

-VARIETY!: We love it too! the joy of an amazing dance with a complete stranger is one our ultimate pleasures. IMO This experience is particulary potent for women rather than men - as it's the 'strange man' who is leading the dance.
There's plenty of them around!

[Minnie M]

.....:eek: ....
:really: not sure if I understand all that :what:

[Flat_Eric]

:really: not sure if I understand all that :what:

To summarise simply:
1- People's motivation when they start dancing evolves as they become more involved with it
2- For this reason, try a one-for-all communication / advertising as Ceroc franchisees are trying to do it (distinction dance / dancer) will not work.
3- By promoting those of the 6 needs that are most appealing to people depending on their gender and level, Ceroc increases their chances to attract and retain more dancers for a longer periopd of time

Is that clearer?

[bigdjiver]

Here is one I thought I would extend from a debate going on in NZ at the moment between the franchisees.

I am asking you to put yourself in the position of the organiser, franchisee whatever.

Consider the majority of people who come along to Ceroc.
Consider what a dancer is.

Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance? I know there are other reasons, but I am interested in this distinction.

But then when people start to dance, if they do, do they then want to become dancers, if they are not already, or do they want to dance more, if they ever did?...In the beginner class - want to learn.
Turn up at the end - probably want to dance
In the intermediate - want to learn
turn up near the end of it - want to dance.
sign up for workshops - want to learn.
quit after a few weeks - have learned enough, don't want to dance.

collect the numbers, perhaps apply guessed percentages instead of absolutes, and you should have a pretty good idea of your answer.

[ducasi]

Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance?This thread and poll (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6425) from last year is basically asking the same question. A surprisingly high number of folk (at least to me) thought of themselves as a "dancer" rather than "someone who dances".

Well worth re-reading (if I say so myself. ;))

[TA Guy]

I read your original post before you edited it & replaced it with this, and was starting to reply when you removed it! :tears:

Since when was being off topic considered a problem on this forum? Was looking forward to the ensuing 'debate'... ruined, all ruined :whistle:

Sorry!
I realized it was a bit 'contentious' and unfort had to scoot on out, and I'm one of those anal retentives who needs to get the post just right :)

Just as well really, as I believe I read in another thread the guy I was replying too has left the forum anyway.....

[Bara Davies]

Not sure that this is completely relevant to the discussion, (cos I think you are really talking about intentions when starting to dance?) but my own, simplistic, definition of a "dancer", in MJ terms, is a man/lead who has broken away from just doing taught moves, and moves me around to the music.
And I suppose, the corollory (?) of that would be that a woman/follower would be a "dancer" when she can follow it!! Or actually much MUCH prefers it.
(my very FIRST post!!!)

[Sparkles]

It'd be to dance for me. I have next to no aspiration of becoming a dancer. :cheers:

:yeah:

In fact I actively sought out MJ/Ceroc as a dance style because it offers exactly that - the oppertunity ot dance without people pressurising you into becoming a dancer.

I went to ballet classes when I was four years old and on my second class the teacher asked "Who wantes to become a ballerina when they grow up?" all the little girls apart from two of us started jumping up and down saying "Me! Me! Me!". The teacher looked at the other girl (who I still remember as miserable looking and slightly overweight) and said "And why don't you want to become a ballerina?" (in a rather accusatory tone), to which she shuffled her feet and said "I don't know". Then she asked me in an even more esasperated tone and my reply was "because I want to be a teacher like my Mummy" ( :blush: )... the teacher replied "Well, what are you doing here then?!"

:what:

I gave up six weeks later :sad:.

I love dancing. I love the challenge of interpreting the music and of following the leads of many many different people. I like the idea I can dance my way to a piece of music without being told it's wrong. I've been dancing (properly) for over 20years now, but I'm not a dancer and never will be one. And that's just fine by me ;) .

[Bara Davies]

Oooops - apparently I did one before!!! (It's age - memory gone . . .)

[Lynn]

(my very FIRST post!!!) Welcome to the forum. :flower:
but my own, simplistic, definition of a "dancer", in MJ terms, is a man/lead who has broken away from just doing taught moves, and moves me around to the music.
And I suppose, the corollory (?) of that would be that a woman/follower would be a "dancer" when she can follow it!! I got to the 'I don't want to learn moves, I want to learn how to dance' point fairly early on in MJ (I think about 6-8 weeks). So maybe the intention deep down is 'I'd love to be a dancer'. The reality is 'I'll never be a dancer, but I love to dance'. Just like I'll never be a singer but I like singing.

Of course to the non-dancers (like my work colleages, one of which commented today that I don't walk round the office like everyone else, I glide apparently :D ) - I'm a dancer!

[Emma]

I started Ceroc because I have always wanted to be a dancer. However, I was under no illusion that Ceroc would make me one. I just wanted the experience of dancing: and Ceroc provided that. The fact that it also provided a social life was a huge unexpected bonus. Initially the feeling of being 'able' to dance and the social life were the most important factors of going to the classes but gradually I became interested in becoming a 'better' dancer, and began to actively seek out ways of doing this. This allowed me to think of myself as more of a 'dancer' but as people have said before I think of 'dancers' as people who have had extensive dance training and may earn their living from dancing.

I don't think of myself as a 'dancer'. I am someone who goes dancing. Going dancing allows me to indulge my childhood dreams of being a dancer. It's also a rotten good time :waycool:

NZ Monkey: knowing your opinions on the differences between UK and NZ dancing I am slightly concerned that you believe it's probably a cultural thing! The cultures between the dance classes are clearly very different but I think it's a mistake to draw too many conclusions about UK culture based on attending Modern Jive nights :hug: :hug:

[NZ Monkey]

NZ Monkey: knowing your opinions on the differences between UK and NZ dancing I am slightly concerned that you believe it's probably a cultural thing! The cultures between the dance classes are clearly very different but I think it's a mistake to draw too many conclusions about UK culture based on attending Modern Jive nights :hug: :hug: Oh, I think you may be misunderstanding my intentions (don't worry, it happens a lot :devil: ). What I mean is that I think the ''purpose'' of ceroc here is to have a good time, and that's something that the company focuses on and does very well. In that respect ceroc uk and most of the cerocers here very much have their eye on the ball. I just don't think the same way of doing things would work as well in NZ though. I have a suspicion that I know just what the discussion Cerocmetro was alluding to is and I thought what I said might have been relevent to him. I don't think New Zealanders are so good at doing something just for the fun of doing it - which *may* be an issue Cerocmetro is facing thus sparking the ''dancing'' vs ''dancer'' debate. Even social sports in NZ are a serious(ish) thing in my experience for instance, and I'd include dancing in the same overall category of that :P

As I said, please take that with a grain of salt. I’m not really making massive assumptions about the UK here based on dance classes and parties. That would be like comparing the economy based on the price of a Big Mac.

[Alice]

As I said, please take that with a grain of salt. I’m not really making massive assumptions about the UK here based on dance classes and parties. That would be like comparing the economy based on the price of a Big Mac.
:yeah: :rofl: :rofl:

It could also come down to the culture of the dance/MJ scene in each country though...
(Just to throw another spanner in the works:devil: )

[Gus]

Even social sports in NZ are a serious(ish) thing in my experience for instance, and I'd include dancing in the same overall category of that :PHmmm in my limited experience I would tend to agree. Given the relative size of populations, I would say there are probably proprtionally far more 'serious' dancers in NZ as they are in the UK. I've been to a few clubs in NZ and they do seem to 'push their dancing. Whether its more fun I don't know. The last time I went I was still dancing at a reasonable standard but was totally intimidated by the standard/seriousness of dancing at a club night at Lorne St (Auckland) :sick:.

I would also say there there is a great difference in teaching workshops in NZ. I found the dancers far more attentive, focusing on more on the technique rather than just going with the flow. It was interesting that when I taught a 'back to basics' workshop it was packed out ... doubt if I'd managed to sell such a workshop in the UK.:o

[Emma]

As I said, please take that with a grain of salt. I’m not really making massive assumptions about the UK here based on dance classes and parties. That would be like comparing the economy based on the price of a Big Mac.Just checking!! :wink: :nice:

[Alice]

Hmmm in my limited experience I would tend to agree. Given the relative size of populations, I would say there are probably poroprtionally far more 'serious' dancers in NZ as they are in the UK. I've been to a few clubs in NZ and they do seem to 'push their dancing. Whether its more fun I don't know. The last time I went I was still dancing at a reasonable standard but was totally intimidated by the standard of dancing at a club night at Lorne St (Auckland) :sick:.

I would also say there there is a great difference in teaching workshops in NZ. I found the dancers far more attentive, focusing on more on the technique rather than just going with the flow. It was interesting that when I taught a 'back to basics' workshop it was packed out ... doubt if I'd managed to sell such a workshop in the UK.:o
There was a very good thread on (I think) the Aussie forum a little while ago comparing the attitudes of dancers at workshops in the UK, Oz and NZ, from the perspective of the teachers. I'll have to see if I can find it. It was talking about noise levels, how many people came, attention levels.... and how many people came up afterwards and asked questions or asked them to dance!!

[Gus]

It was talking about noise levels, how many people came, attention levels.... and how many people came up afterwards and asked questions or asked them to dance!!Don't know if its due to my aftershave but I rarely get asked to dance after a lesson :( Also, rarely get people asking me questions after a lesson, even if its been a technical one. In NZ that definitly was not the case.

[Dreadful Scathe]

In fact I actively sought out MJ/Ceroc as a dance style because it offers exactly that - the oppertunity ot dance without people pressurising you into becoming a dancer.

You heard it here first - Sparkles put the pert in oppertunity :)

the teacher replied "Well, what are you doing here then?!"

I can understand a teacher only teaching those with some sort of self belief and ambition....but from a 4 year old?? I imagine you need to wait until their age is at least double figures before that strategy will work.

And thats a cute thing to say as a 4 year old - lets hope you never lose that cuteness :)




I don't think of myself as a 'dancer'. I am someone who goes dancing. Going dancing allows me to indulge my childhood dreams of being a dancer. It's also a rotten good time

Oh what. Tally ho pip squeek. Lashings of Ceroc all round :)

[Emma]

Oh what. Tally ho pip squeek. Lashings of Ceroc all round :)

There are days when I yearn for a 'flick the V's' smilie.....:rolleyes:

[TallGuyNiceShoes]

What a great thread - first one I've read all the way through. Plenty of resonance with SPARKLES and her early ballet experiences.

Parallels here with education of children and the teaching of sport. It still seems to be the case that we teach children lots of team games with laudable intentions of team working alongside skill development and fitness but how many children go on to continue playing team games in early or later adulthood (apart from you sunday footballers!) - perhaps we should be teaching MJ (in fact I started doing so this week to chidlren aged 7-11)

I believe we should be helping to give children a joy of physical activity and an understanding of why it is important in their lives that will hopefully carry forward into their adult lives.

So - are we dancers or do we go dancing? I think it's all about how we want to be perceived by others. I know it kinda feels good when someone refers to me as a dancer as it kinda implies a certain skill level (oh how little they know) or dedication to improving. Being a 'dancer' suggests either a degree of professionalism (ie being paid to do it) or a time commitment to it that goes beyond the casual.

I guess it really doesn't matter whether you consider yourself or others consider you a 'dancer' - we all go dancing with a host of different motivations.

The dance organisations not least CEROC do however have to be mindful of our motivations to dance and this is where perhaps the distinction becomes more relevant. I had a chance to dance down on the south coast at Andy McGregors Rocksters and for the first half of the lesson found myself thinking this is too social, too much chat and talk by the teacher - let's get on with it but actually Andy had it bang on right - he was catering for his audience - the majority were fairly new and there for a new experience as well as to improve their dancing but he did make a point of helping me with some finer points of technique having identified the 'level' I was dancing at.

Does CEROC do this well - not so sure? As well as saying pay less if you come after the intermediate lesson ie. just the freestyle bit could a better deal be offered for those who want to come for just the intermediate and freestyle element. Beginners get a good deal when they get a lesson then a refresher lesson as well so could, say once a month, teachers offer an advanced class after the intermediate class (not just more moves but styling etc - hopefully without it becoming too elitist) in those venues where there is another room (all kinds of logistical issues I'm sure). I know this would be beyond the current duties of teachers but I think it could be popular - how one determines who is suitable for the class would be whole other issue but after a class or two I think it would be fairly much self-selective.

Dance or dancer? As long as it makes you happy who gives a damn. If, as indeed we are, we are first and foremost responsible for our own happiness through the choices we make then I will choose the class venues/weekenders/workshops/teachers/DJs/Dancers that do it for me.

Last night however made me reflect on what makes me 'dancing happy.' Sometimes it is just a bloody good dance where the dancing chemistry thing kicks in and everything just feels great with your partner but my most enjoyable dance was with someone farily new where the dance wasn't really technical or fancy just lots of smiles and FUN! The best dancer doesn't always make for the best fun. Quite the opposite can be true. I will never forget on my first weekender a couple of years back (I of W Rockbottoms) as a fairly average intermediate dancer bravely asking what I considered to be a a great 'dancer' to dance and within a bar or two the look of disappointment on her face as I didn't match up to her expectations. I learnt a lot from that and will never be that person for anyone else new or otherwise to dancing.

See you at Southport - I'll be the happy one - especially if Wes buys breakfast again!!

[Alice]

There was a very good thread on (I think) the Aussie forum a little while ago comparing the attitudes of dancers at workshops in the UK, Oz and NZ, from the perspective of the teachers. I'll have to see if I can find it. It was talking about noise levels, how many people came, attention levels.... and how many people came up afterwards and asked questions or asked them to dance!!
http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?t=2220
I found it- above is the link but it won't work if you're not a member:P
Apologies to Adss- pretty much quoted verbatim but I thought this was a fantastic post:clap: :clap: (bit long though...)


Hi, I have to say that what appeared different to me is simply just an other opinion and in some cases based on a single experience. However, here it goes:

Workshops
NZ - I found the students’ attendance to overseas teachers’ workshops really high. Furthermore, I found the students very attentive (more then the other nations) and when ever the teachers spoke the students were instantly silent and focussed on what was instructed. The students’ energy level was very high and as a teacher I didn’t require to ‘inject’ extra energy. Once the workshop was completed the social interaction with us by the students was on par with Australia (1-2 students). Overall: they were definitely there to learn about the moves

UK – I found the students participation on par with Australia (this does not cover dance camps as it is discussed below). The students’ attentiveness was great but not on par with NZ. Energy needed to be injected as the students were mostly semi-silent. The crowd did respond well to “increase of energy” activities – clapping, cheering, jokes, etc… – the curiosity seemed more about us, as the teachers, rather then the moves. What I did find great was the amount of “after class/workshop” feedback and questions. Once the workshop was completed the social interaction with us, by the students, was considerably higher then the other nations. Overall: it felt like they were there to learn about us instead of the moves. I do feel that this could be about making an opinion first on who was instructing before focussing on what was being taught. Overall: they were there to learn about us and then the moves.

AUS - I found the students participation on par with UK (dance camps not included). The students’ attentiveness was great but not on par with NZ. Limited energy needed to be injected as AUS social behaviour is visible during the instruction phase – in fact in aerials workshops the norm is to request their attention before I/we cover a point (this is not a negative, … just different). The crowd did respond above the other nations to “increase of energy” activities – clapping, cheering, jokes, picking on the other teacher :D. After class questions were less then the other two nations. Overall: Students are there to learn the moves in a very social environment.

Classes
NZ - cannot comment as I have never attended nor taught in a NZ class

UK – This will get me into trouble ;D
Inner London classes – I can only comment on two experiences – teaching at Hipsters and attending one of Ceroc Metro (I think that was the name) classes.

At hipster limited students attend the classes and mostly turned up for the freestyle/dance session at the end of the night. Beginner and intermediate class structure was similar to AUS. Hipsters at the time was supposably one of the most popular venues and yet the beginner class had less then 20 couples – it looked like there were very few higher level dancers in it. The intermediate class was bigger in size (60sh students) and it had varying level of experience. It looked like a few “advance dancer” were in the class. The peculiar aspect observed in this class was that a few students, although rotating, did not even try to attempt in doing moves they did not like. So we found ourselves looking at a few guys just standing there and watching. The crowed was not very receptive to our efforts to inject energy. This made it, at times, difficult to motivate the students as the venue lacked the social/fun feel present in most Modern Jive classes and in the West Coast swing class taught earlier on downstairs. The other difference was the use of a DJ. Although the CD player was next to us, we had to ask a DJ to play our songs throughout the class. Once the social dancing commenced, the class became overcrowded and clashing between couples were inevitable, even if standing still. Additionally, it didn’t take long (within a few songs) to tell who were the top dancers and where the varying cliquey group positioned themselves. With the exception of a west coast swing dancer, a few local friends, only two girls approached me for a dance. Very few moves were referred by names.

Outer London classes
The classes here were similar to the Australian classes. 99% of those attending were rotating through the class. There was a great mixture of advance, intermediate, and beginner level through out all classes. The students were very receptive to energy injection activities and were very social. Other then a funny accent, I couldn’t really differentiate between UK and AUS. No DJ was present and everyone dance with one another. Also, the foreign visitors (us) were continuously asked for a dance. The only other mention I would make was that we were asked to teach a kids class before the beginner class started. To date I have not seen this in Australia – although sometimes Modern Jive (AUS) does go out to the schools to teach.

Overall in the UK there were considerably higher percentage of ‘leadable’ moves contrary to ‘signature’ moves.

AUS – To date all levels do attend beginner and intermediate classes, although I often observe through out Australia “advance” dancers (and friends) sitting and chatting next to a running class instead of joining in. I think nobody uses DJs anymore for classes and all moves have names (many not consistent throughout Australia). Foreign visiting teachers always attract bigger crowds and students strive to have at least a dance with them. The classes have natural high/fun energy.

Overall in AUS there was a considerably lower percentage (in comparison to the UK) of ‘leadable’ moves contrary to ‘signature’ moves. An exception seems to be for QLD and ACT where the percentage is almost on par with UK.

Dance camps
NZ - cannot comment as I have never attended nor taught in a NZ Dance Camp

UK – basically the word that comes to mind is WOW!!
I attended Camber Sands and was blown away by the number of students (1500sh). The variety of dance styles, teachers, and participation surpasses AUS. The duration of the “dance day” was also longer the AUS. I think the day started at 9am and finished the following morning at 5am. Although there was a heavy presence of Modern Jive workshops, it was far off in simply being an all dance camp instead of a prominently Modern Jive Dance camp as per AUS. The other difference was that most of the teachers were male whilst in AUS it is fairly even. Also, contrary to AUS, there appeared to be a sizeable contingent of dancers there purely for the dance parties. The dancers were very responsive to our energy injection activities and they all participated whilst in the class (see Hipsters comment). Post a workshop there was always feedback provided and/or questions asked – greater amount (%) then AUS. DJs were provided to assist us in the workshops. The events was well organised/managed. The teachers varied in knowledge and I felt that some had not undergone teacher training – based on basic teaching DO NOT DO rules – i.e. mock/criticise students on the dance floor, explain and/or demonstrate what they are about to be taught, class structure, etc. Overall: incredibly inspiring to both teachers and students and an insight to many other dance styles and techniques.

AUS –
The dance camps are mostly focussed on Modern Jive with a small element of other dance styles (some camps have greater more then other). The days are shorter then the UK and 99% of the teacher have had some formal dance teaching training. The percentage of couples joining in for rotation instead of dancing on the side of the class with just their partner is considerably lower then the UK’s. So far all dance camps attended by me have taught baby and major aerial workshops – this could be because the space used for training in AUS is usually ample for the number of attendees – not the case at Camber Sands (UK). The number of foreign teachers also is usually limited, contrary to the UK (more students could equate to more money available to fund foreign guest teachers). Social dance party are less cliquey then UK. Overall: minimal insight to other dance styles and techniques, but extremely social.

Dancers’ Interest: Techniques Vs moves
UK seems to be more focussed at the technique aspect of Modern Jive
AUS seems to be more focussed at the moves aspect of dancing
NZ – not sure
PS: except for footwork where AUS is more about technique and UK about step movement

Freestyle

Musicality
UK appeared to have more musicality then AUS & NZ in freestyle. An example was whilst watching dancers at dance party, in the UK when the music slowed down they all attempted to reflect the change. I have not witnessed this in NZ and AUS. Musicality is taught in all nations.

Danced moves
UK – ‘introverted’ moves with the exception of competitors or dancers with a strong swing & hip hop influence. Most moves tended to make the guy stand out.
Adaptation of other dance style moves outside their main influences – medium

AUS - “extroverted (performance)” moves. However, most of the moves tend to make the girl stand out.
Adaptation of other dance style moves outside their main influences – high

NZ - “extroverted (performance)” moves. As par AUS, most of the moves tend to make the girl stand out.
Adaptation of other dance style moves outside their main influences – unsure

Floorcraft –
UK – medium (despite hearing UK dancers rating it as high)
AUS – medium
NZ - medium

Styling –
UK - seems to be focussed more about the body movement
AUS – seems to be focussed on the arms, and although to a lesser extent) feet movement
NZ – for years I thought for the guy it was focussed on the feet movement and, for the lady, on the hands movement

Dips –
UK - limited although many are taught at dance camps and workshops. This could be a direct result of the overcrowded venues.]
AUS – many … and before someone says it “yes, guilty as charged :D”
NZ – considerable amount, but less then AUS

Aerials –
UK - none seen except on the competitive floor. Although on the respective forums AUS is referred as the nation which does the most aerials during comps, this didn't seem to be the case when watching UK dancers at the Jive Masters.
AUS – Aerials are popular
NZ – Aerials are also popular but less then AUS, particularly on the dance floor.

PS.
1) If I had to place it in order of the nation who performs the most to the lesser amount of aerials on the competitive floor I would say: AUS, UK, NZ. However, in social environments: AUS, NZ, UK.
2) What was noticeable in the UK was that lots of Aus (Nicky&Robert performed/taught) baby aerials were used.
3) UK does have some of the best “aerial specialist” that I have come across (i.e. David and Lily).

Lead (guys leading skills) & Follow (lady following skills) - all nations are the same in the "following" arena. UK&AUS looked the same in the ‘lead’ arena. NZ looked like guys have stronger leads.
When it comes to “Girl Sabotage (girl taking over the lead) this was unseen in the UK.
However, it is more common & taught to be carried out at the end of a move in AUS.
In NZ, it is common to be seen at the end of a move although it is also taught to be carried out mid move.


Style influence
UK - Female influence (not seen), Male influence (major), Swing (major), Latin (moderate)
AUS - Female influence (major), Male influence (minor), swing (minor but supposably 10+ yrs ago considerable), Latin (major), west coast swing (major in last 4yrs)
NZ – Female influence (major), Male influence (minor), Latin (major), unsure on guys footwork styling influence. Overall some of the NZ influence is hard to depict.

Note: female focus seems to be on creativity (signature moves) & male influence on practicability (i.e. Leadable moves)

[bigdjiver]

... Being a 'dancer' suggests either a degree of professionalism (ie being paid to do it) or a time commitment to it that goes beyond the casual...For me it also includes talent. Every once in a while I dance with a beginner lady at Ceroc who has never done dance classes before and believe that I can see she has "It". I know lots of people that have been to Ceroc for a long time and seem to me to have no chance of ever being a "Dancer". They enjoy MJ, and learning at their own pace, and I enjoy dancing with happy people.:flower: I also enjoy watching "Dancers", to the point of embarassing them sometimes. (Sorry :blush: ) And there is a wonderful world between the extremes ...

[johnnyman]

The joy of doing Ceroc in my early years stemmed from a mixture of surprise and relief that I could do something that I didn't think I was capable of doing. Doing a competition six months after starting, which was the first Ceroc Champs at the now-defunct Equinox in Leicester Square and getting through to the Second Round of the Lucky Dip, was an achievement in itself.

I think after that and doing a few evenings and workshops heightened my determination to improve and develop my dancing so that it was not just a passing fad. It was also the joy of discovering I had a natural ability for something that normally somebody of a capable level would discover as a child, not in his late twenties.

[JiveLad]

Simple: I go to Ceroc to dance.

And....these days, if someone asks a generic question: "What do you do?" (which usually means what work do you do - although can also be answered at a more general level) I reply:

"I dance"

....I don't say "I am a dancer" - because that would imply I do it for a living (or part-time living).

Spekaing of which - time for Ceroc Metro tonite..........to dance

[Daisy Chain]

Don't know if its due to my aftershave but I rarely get asked to dance after a lesson .

I would ask, but I'm not brave enough. I do try to ask but don't quite manage it.

Daisy

(A Cowardly Little Flower)

[David Bailey]

Don't know if its due to my aftershave but I rarely get asked to dance after a lesson
Nah, don't worry - it's just coz you're ugly :na:

[happygoldfish]

I am asking you to put yourself in the position of the organiser, franchisee whatever. …
Do people come along to Ceroc to learn to become dancers or to dance? …

As a Ceroc organiser, I would say:
We do three types of classes … for beginners, for intermediates, and for teachers.

Not for competitions!

If people want to progress, they can become teachers.

Training people to compete, or even just to do medals, as in ballroom dancing, would completely change the atmosphere at Ceroc. :(

Adam, has any Ceroc beginner ever asked if you do medals?

[Spiky Steve]

Simple: I go to Ceroc to dance.

And....these days, if someone asks a generic question: "What do you do?" (which usually means what work do you do - although can also be answered at a more general level) I reply:

"I dance"

....I don't say "I am a dancer" - because that would imply I do it for a living (or part-time living).

Spekaing of which - time for Ceroc Metro tonite..........to dance

If I were to get on a bicycle then I would be a cyclist. When I get behind the wheel I am a driver.

However, if you say dancer then somehow it does imply you are a professional dancer.

Hence on discussion some time back we came up with these desciptions from what I can remember:

Social Dancer
- dance for fun
Social Dancer and competitor
- dance and compete for fun
Amateur Dancer
- dance and perform shows etc
Professional dancer
- Paid to dance
Dance Teacher
- Paid to teach dance but not to actually dance

I would say I am a very happy :grin: social dancer.

Steve

[bigdjiver]

In my eyes there are some people who just are "dancers". They respond to the music, and they can show that response with their body. It is a natural talent. Training and practice always helps, and much of it can be learned, but there is a quality that is innate.

[Spiky Steve]

In my eyes there are some people who just are "dancers". They respond to the music, and they can show that response with their body. It is a natural talent. Training and practice always helps, and much of it can be learned, but there is a quality that is innate.

:yeah:

Same can be said for lovers :devil: Training and practice can be more fun though.

[Jhutch]

I dont like to think that i go to dance or that i am a dancer as both bring images of people leaping about in leotards into my head:blush: I tend to think that i go to do ceroc:blush: as i don't associate anything with it at all. Is this a good thing or evidence that my mind has been taken over by Ceroc (TM):confused:

[Slider]

In my eyes there are some people who just are "dancers". They respond to the music, and they can show that response with their body. It is a natural talent. Training and practice always helps, and much of it can be learned, but there is a quality that is innate.
THAT'S ME!!!!!!



not

[Daisy Chain]

I was watching the dance floor last night and I think that I have the definition regarding whether women "go dancing" or "are dancers"

The vast majority of women that I watched last night "go dancing". ie they plonk the whole foot on the floor with every step (not nice to watch).

The women who "are dancers" move lightly about on their toes and rarely put their heels on the floor (lovely to watch - my eyes were drawn to these few women).

There are a few stylish exceptions who have the archetypal Ceroc style and use a heel lead with nearly every step (tend to be wearing dance trainers). Also usually lovely to watch as they tend to have stylish hip movements, but overall these women are not quite as lady-like as the heel-less dancers.

Still deciding if this definition can be applied to the men. I know quite a few men who are plonkers. I really hope that I'm not a plonker :what:

Daisy

(A Non-Archetypal Little Flower)

[MartinHarper]

The women who "are dancers" move lightly about on their toes and rarely put their heels on the floor (lovely to watch - my eyes were drawn to these few women).

I did hear this week (probably from Nina) that always dancing up on your toes can shorten the hamstring and cause health problems. Probably more of an issue for women because of the damage from wearing high heels.

[Daisy Chain]

I did hear this week (probably from Nina) that always dancing up on your toes can shorten the hamstring and cause health problems. Probably more of an issue for women because of the damage from wearing high heels.

Oh how we women suffer for our vanity. And then, of course, there are the cheesecutters and chicken fillets *sighs*

Daisy

(A Vain Little Flower)

[thainmaggiet]

I started ceroc because above all people seemed to be having fun!:nice:
I am learning slowly but surely, but I will never be a "dancer":sad:

However though I may never get to the ball:tears: I am certainly having one!:) :) :)