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View Full Version : 'Advanced' or Suicidal Teaching?



Gus
5th-September-2006, 03:56 PM
Inspired by this new wave of openness I thought I'd take a different path on the Instructor thread.

Last night I saw a 'new' move taught from stage. To put it into perspective, its a well attended and established venues (about 160 dancers). Reasonably good standard but few really good dancers. At the end of the intermediate routine they always teach an advanced move for fixed couples only. Onto the floor duly go about 20 couples, with about 3 of them anywhere near 'advanced' level (IMHO). The move that was taught was, for the first time in a long time, one I've not seen before. Man does a basket ending up standing directly behind the woman on beat 5. He then leans woman forward as he counterbalances by leaning back. Then the woman (who has both her hands pinned to her side) has to slide backward (on her toes) through the guys legs hoping the guy will have the power/balance/timing to hold her so her face/body doesn't make contact with the tarmac. The guy then has to pull her forwards and up to the original position.:eek: :tears:

OK, leaving out the minor facts that the instructor couldn't do it himself properly, his demo came off second best a few time, few of the male dancers on the floor had the requisite power, the move was really badly taught ...... ASIDE form all that ... is this the type of move you expect to see taught from stage on a club night? My contemplation is that I'd find it hard to see how you could teach it safely in a workshop as it requires some power as well as technique.

Anyone seen any 'worse' moves taught?

straycat
5th-September-2006, 04:00 PM
Dear ... God .... :eek: :really:

No. I have not seen any worse moves taught. Ever. Who.... where.... WHY???

:what:

quiet_flame
5th-September-2006, 04:02 PM
:eek:

From the description of the move it sounds like something we call "the lawnmower" over here, minus the spin at the bottom which make the move work and therefore the lady is "relatively" safe...

I have seen some moves taught in a mainstream night that really shouldn't belng there, but to be honest, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head at 1am. Will get back to you on that one.

IMHO if the teacher can't do it, they don't understand the move well enough to teach it, because that sounds like a momentum based move, but if the dancer doesn't have the right timing, the momentum is killed and therefore the dancer must have strength... and a sturdy back.

I'm scared!

Lou
5th-September-2006, 04:16 PM
Leaving aside the fact the teacher shouldn't teach a move that they can't do - and that quiet_flame has already pointed out that they were even teaching it incorrectly without actually knowing the move...


At the end of the intermediate routine they always teach an advanced move for fixed couples only.

....at least they've made the effort to limit the class & fix the partners. It could be worse, Gus - they could so easily have included it in the standard intermediate routine!

MartinHarper
5th-September-2006, 05:42 PM
My contemplation is that I'd find it hard to see how you could teach it safely in a workshop as it requires some power as well as technique.

With 20 fixed couples, it doesn't seem that unsafe. Sure, the woman might end up headbutting the flaw, but from a relatively low height, and it's more likely to end up with a bruised shoulder than a faceplant. I can't see any permanent damage being done, and those who've volunteered should be aware of the risks. I take it nobody was injured in the end?

Gus
5th-September-2006, 06:15 PM
With 20 fixed couples, it doesn't seem that unsafe. Not that unsafe? From a risk assessment / teacher point of view lets walk this through.


If the lady is taller than the lad her momentum can take them both forward ... and the guy only has lateral stability.
If the lady slides backwards quickly, her momentum will take the guy down quickly. The pressure comes onto the lower part of his spine, his shoulder and arm muscles. The average age of these guys is late 40s and few looked like they can work out .. chances of muscle strain or worse?
From a static position the guy has to bring the lady forwards and up .... would you have the power.
Anything goes wrong (and you can't do this move slowly) and the lady hits the floor with her knees or face.

OK ... I could go on. To be frank, if any CTA teacher taught a move like that I'd expect to see them chucked out immedeatly.

David Franklin
5th-September-2006, 06:22 PM
With 20 fixed couples, it doesn't seem that unsafe. Sure, the woman might end up headbutting the flaw, but from a relatively low height, and it's more likely to end up with a bruised shoulder than a faceplant. If I'm understanding it correctly, it's not a move Bryony and I would have been prepared to learn on a dance floor without crash mats. At the end of the day, the woman starts off standing, and by sliding you are taking her feet out of the equation, so if she slides well it's basically a 5-6 foot drop. And a common way to stuff these moves is not controlling the fall, followed by overbalancing, so not only is the man not helping, he may even fall on her. A face plant may be unlikely, but face first falls can be very nasty - it was always Bryony's biggest fear when we did aerials - it worried her a lot more than doing a candlestick deathdive, for example. Even if you get your arms in the way, it's a heck of a jolt to the body, and unless you keep good tone, your face is going to whiplash into the ground anyway. Face first impacts are more likely to cause permanent spinal damage as well. So it's a small chance of fairly catastrophic injury. And for what? A drop that sounds like a complete aesthetic mess in any event.


I can't see any permanent damage being done, and those who've volunteered should be aware of the risks. I know of people who've had permanent neck problems as a result of this kind of thing. Seeing as you "can't see that happening", what was that about being aware of the risks?


I take it nobody was injured in the end?In practice, 99 times out of a 100, there are no big consequences. But it's like Russian roulette - you keep taking those chances, you keep thinking "Oops, nearly dropped her! I'll get it right next time", and sooner or later you'll catch a bullet.

exactly[/b] what happened with our worst practice accident. Bryony was falling just before she got round onto my shoulder, and I was grabbing her leg to stop her hitting the floor. So we thought "[i]all we have to do is get her round a bit more and we'll be there", instead of thinking "all I have to do is miss catching her leg and she's going to hit her head". Stupidity. Total stupidity. Of the kind I see repeated all over the place by people learning aerials. You never realise yourself how close you're cutting the margins - so you need a teacher who will do.]

Ghost
5th-September-2006, 06:34 PM
A face plant may be unlikely, but face first falls can be very nasty
:yeah:
It's one of the cardinal lessons to bouncers and law enforcement that you avoid moves that can cause this.

Conversely it's one the cardinal lessons to a lot of martial artists as a way to deal with serious violence. Put someone into the ground face first with their arms pinned and they ain't gonna be getting up in a hurry "You can hit him with your fist or you can hit him with the ground - which do you think's going to do more damage?"

But then I find a lot of Ceroc moves scary from a potential injury perspective....:sick:

Be Well,
Christopher

Andreas
5th-September-2006, 06:53 PM
What speaks against the 'lawn mower' idea is that in this move the guy stands behind the lady and only does a basket as opposed to an over-turned basket, which would have the lady face the guy.And I believe that is exactly the problem of what has been taught. The lawn mower is a 'reasonably' safe advanced move because the two partners are smack-close together, leaving the centre of gravity close to that of the guy. With a simple basket it will be further away for two reasons. 1) The lady bends easier forwards than backwards. 2) There is significantly less body contact in a basket than an over-turned basket. However, I beieve they nicked the move from Latin American where the lady actually does a vague resemblance of the splits after bringing her legs through the guy's.

Anyway, not a move that I'd teach in a class because of the danger of back injuries.

bigdjiver
5th-September-2006, 07:14 PM
:eek:

From the description of the move it sounds like something we call "the lawnmower" over here, minus the spin at the bottom which make the move work and therefore the lady is "relatively" safe...
Being what I am I have always wanted to do the "lawnmower", having seen it on many Australian videos. Is it taught in a class environment in Australia, or only in specialist workshops? Fixed or variable partners? Selected dancers?

Dan Hudson
5th-September-2006, 09:57 PM
[LIST]
OK ... I could go on. To be frank, if any CTA teacher taught a move like that I'd expect to see them chucked out immedeatly.

:yeah: agreed... dangerous... leave it for specialist workshops taught by instructors who can actually dance the move and teach safely

Yliander
6th-September-2006, 12:16 AM
Being what I am I have always wanted to do the "lawnmower", having seen it on many Australian videos. Is it taught in a class environment in Australia, or only in specialist workshops? Fixed or variable partners? Selected dancers?in my experience the lawnmower is taught in a fixed partner workshop in Australia

personally I learnt it as part of a performance routine

quiet_flame
6th-September-2006, 01:12 AM
in my experience the lawnmower is taught in a fixed partner workshop in Australia

personally I learnt it as part of a performance routine
:yeah:
Safety first. Always.

I've only known it to be taught either in a workshop or private lesson situation, where the student either has a spotter, or teacher standing right there ready to cathc the girl when (not if) the lead makes a mistake.

MartinHarper
6th-September-2006, 01:45 AM
I mis-spelled "floor". I feel stupid.

I have a somewhat unusual view of risk (cf passive smoking thread). It always gets me in trouble on these threads.


face first falls can be very nasty - it was always Bryony's biggest fear when we did aerials.

Well, full aerials are indeed risky. They're way past my risk tolerance, and I fully intend to avoid ever doing any of them, with anyone, at any time. Frankly, I think those of you who do do them are nuts, and while I'm happy to applaud you for pulling them off, I'd much rather you kept your feet under your head and danced, particularly as "complete aesthetic mess" sums up my opinion of 90% of aerials anyway. This is all something of a digression, though, because the move Gus is describing isn't an aerial.


The average age of these guys is late 40s and few looked like they can work out .. chances of muscle strain or worse?

Most of the class being 40+ does alter my opinion. I had assumed one would only be teaching something like that if you had a class of younger people (eg in an Australian class, where the average age is apparently much lower). So I'm coming closer to agreement with y'all. Still, the dangerous features of the move (woman's face close to a hard surface, heavy lifting required) ought to be immediately apparent to all viewing the demonstration, especially if the demonstrator is getting a fair share of bruises. People should take responsibility for their own safety and their own risk tolerance.


leave it for specialist workshops taught by instructors who can actually dance the move and teach safely.

A high quality instructor won't make it safer for me, because I'm incompetent, and there is therefore no guarantee I will be correctly doing any of the things the instructor has asked me to do to make things safe. The chances are particularly low that I'll be able to "spot" safely to make things safe for someone else. Additionally, a local instructor will know my dancing and therefore be able to tell me to skip a particular class. A specialist instructor doesn't have a clue who I am or what my ability level is, and will therefore have to trust in the ability of an incompetent dancer to self-select correctly.

As far as I can tell, if a move is dangerous, it's a dangerous move, period. All the forumites who've learnt aerials and such have random horror stories to tell. They all learnt from specialist instructors and took all relevant precautions, and they still got hurt. If a move looks safe enough for me and my partner, I'll happilly learn it using a video and some common sense. If a move looks dangerous, I won't take lessons in it if God himself is giving them, let alone some self-qualified dancer.

Gadget
6th-September-2006, 12:57 PM
It sounds like something I throw my kids into when playing - normally they would end up "swinging", cradled and held securely; exit like a high R&R kick (or flip them upside down :innocent: ).
My kids are 4/2/1yrs: There are only a couple of ladies who are small/light enough that I can support their full weight like that and that's what would be required to recover from this move. How can it be seriously considered as a move to teach outside of a 1 on 1 basis? :what:

Gus
6th-September-2006, 02:00 PM
How can it be seriously considered as a move to teach outside of a 1 on 1 basis? :what:Well, some teachers/promoters just don't care. Want to take a bet as to whether the teacher has any PLI?

Having said that, I remember the last time I went to a Ceroc freestyle in this area. A Ceroc teacher, as a 'fun' class, was teaching a traveling turning neck drop. Neck drops are hard to teach at the best of time ... but doing it with momentum and the lady doing a couple of fast turns before :confused: :tears: :eek: Not aware of any fatalities, but thats more by luck than judgement. Seems even CTA is not immune from crass stupidity ... or is that excess ego:rolleyes: