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Achelous
5th-September-2006, 09:16 AM
I've been going to Ceroc now for 8 months. For the first six months or so I mostly danced with those people who had started at about the same time as me. Recently to get out of the comfort zone I've been trying to ask 4 or 5 people each night to dance who I've never danced with before. Beginners - well I've always asked them and asking the more experienced women who I'd sort of avoided up to now makes the evening unpredictable - but in a good way.

But there is one group that I haven't really had the nerve to ask to dance yet. Yes it's the hot shot women dancers (the ones that don't take part in the lessons, sit in a group off to the side of the stage etc) I had my first refusal a few weeks ago with someone on the edge of that group (her privilege I know, she can dance with who she wants to, she might have been tired etc etc - but she probably thought I was rubbish) and it is a bit depressing when it happens to you.

So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

quiet_flame
5th-September-2006, 09:23 AM
Firstly, good on you for having the guts to ask the "hot shots" to dance, these are the people who will help you to improve to no end if you get a dance with them. I think the best thing to do is keep trying.
They were in your position once.
They should remember how it feels to be at that level.
I think my best advice I can give you is keep trying, try a different person each night, time will eventually be on your side and they will say yes.
Most Modern Jivers are very friendly, the trick is to get to know them.
Daunting I know, but welcome to Modern Jive, it's a crash course in politics, human relations and dance, all rolled into one.
Good luck!

Feelingpink
5th-September-2006, 09:28 AM
How about you go to a venue where you don't know the 'good', 'elite' or 'beginner' dancers from each other and just ask everyone? It's kind of a lucky dip ... but perhaps it will give you the confidence to deal with whatever happens. We all get knockbacks and people often turn down a dance for reasons other than 'you' (on Saturday night there was a run of fast songs and after the first one or two, I turned down one guy because I didn't want another - but did explain that). Good luck.

Andreas
5th-September-2006, 09:30 AM
Asking who to dance?

Yliander
5th-September-2006, 09:30 AM
I've been going to Ceroc now for 8 months. For the first six months or so I mostly danced with those people who had started at about the same time as me. Recently to get out of the comfort zone I've been trying to ask 4 or 5 people each night to dance who I've never danced with before. Beginners - well I've always asked them and asking the more experienced women who I'd sort of avoided up to now makes the evening unpredictable - but in a good way.

But there is one group that I haven't really had the nerve to ask to dance yet. Yes it's the hot shot women dancers (the ones that don't take part in the lessons, sit in a group off to the side of the stage etc) I had my first refusal a few weeks ago with someone on the edge of that group (her privilege I know, she can dance with who she wants to, she might have been tired etc etc - but she probably thought I was rubbish) and it is a bit depressing when it happens to you.

So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

Great to hear that you are starting to ask a wider range of people to dance - it's one of the best ways to improve your dancing.

As to the hot shots - my advice would be to try again with a different lady or even the same one to a different type of song, different part of the night

but don't go putting thoughts in their heads if they do say no - like you said there are any number of reasons she may have said no - the majority of them and most likely nothing to do with you personally

under par
5th-September-2006, 09:35 AM
I've been going to Ceroc now for 8 months. For the first six months or so I mostly danced with those people who had started at about the same time as me. Recently to get out of the comfort zone I've been trying to ask 4 or 5 people each night to dance who I've never danced with before. .
This a really positive attitude that will serve you well. Keep on asking your dancing will improve for the variety and your enjoyment will improve because you never know how good a dancer is till you dance with them





So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?


Re the group near the stage or those that do not participate in classes.. there are various reasons some women don't do classes.

I won't bore you with my understanding of those reasons.

You must though, ask, ask, and ask again as far as these ladies are concerned as you should with every level of dancer.


I would say after a 3rd refusal by any individual dancer you may wish to ask that person why? OR if you do not wish to confront the person then put them on your ignore list..... hopefully you will become such a great dancer that she will eventually ask you !!! Then its up to you:rofl:

David Bailey
5th-September-2006, 09:43 AM
But there is one group that I haven't really had the nerve to ask to dance yet. Yes it's the hot shot women dancers (the ones that don't take part in the lessons, sit in a group off to the side of the stage etc) I had my first refusal a few weeks ago with someone on the edge of that group (her privilege I know, she can dance with who she wants to, she might have been tired etc etc - but she probably thought I was rubbish) and it is a bit depressing when it happens to you.
Very depressing - good on you for trying though. :clap:

You don't say where this was? Did she give a reason or did she Just Say No?

One thing that may console you - the hotshots typically aren't really that good, believe it or not, as their attitude keeps them from learning beyond a certain level. Anyone can always learn from any class - it just gets more difficult with time as you have to think more by yourself.

If you can't motivate yourself to do that, you won't improve much beyond a certain level. Nina still does classes - I doubt they're better than her somehow.

Refusal Rows (or Audition Rows) really wind me up - don't get me started on Hammersmith, it's not a pretty sight...


So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?
Ask whowever you want, whenever you want. Refusals happen - my rule is, if I get refused by a woman more than once, I don't bother asking her again. But that's me.

CJ
5th-September-2006, 10:20 AM
There are no elite dancers.

There are some fantastic dancers who are way better than us mortals. (most of whom are delighted to dance with anyone. Remember: beginners want to dance like intermediates; intermediates- advanced; advanced- beginners. Advanced dancers do tend to enjoy a dance with beginners for 2 reasons: 1, passing on stuff to people who are where they once were. 2, dancing with beginneres does hone your leading/following skills.)

There are also some, erm, more exclusive dancers: these hang around some venues but not all. There are threads that refer to "Refusal Row" or "Iwontbe Avenue".

However good they think they are, they are not elite. Next time you ask, and I hope there is a next time, please remember this.

Patrick
5th-September-2006, 10:23 AM
Ask whowever you want, whenever you want. Refusals happen - my rule is, if I get refused by a woman more than once, I don't bother asking her again. But that's me.

My rule has been if I get refused 3 times, I don't ask again, but I'm thinking of revising that down to only asking once. I figure, if she is interested, next time she can ask me. I'm not short of partners who actually want to dance with me!

I was once turned down 3 times in one evening by one lady for specious reasons, which really hurt. Especially as she immediately danced with someone else after refusing me! Months later, I thought I must be good enough for her and asked her again. Gobsmacked to get yet another refusal.

If someone never intends to dance with me for whatever reason, it would be better if they said that, rather than giving poor excuses.

Missy D
5th-September-2006, 10:56 AM
This is so sad to read Achelous! I know what you mean though.

I have been dancing for 6 years now and competing for 5 years. I still get refused. This really upsets me still and often I wonder why. One day I will shout "why wont you dance with me"?

I remember one occasion when a good dancer asked me to dance I nervously said yes. I had only been dancing a couple of months so was not that confident. Anyway half way through the dance he stopped and said he couldnt dance with me and walked off. I went home after that so upset. I saw him at Hammersmith recently and obviously he didnt recognise me. He came up to me and asked me to dance, I accepted. When the dance had finished I told him what he did to me at the Casbah and he was really embarassed. A few people put me down in dancing when I first started which made me more determined to be a good dancer.

I could go on forever about 'hot shots' and Hammersmith but, cant be arsed. They know who they are and if they think they are so good then why are they not competing.

bigdjiver
5th-September-2006, 11:04 AM
...I would say after a 3rd refusal by any individual dancer you may wish to ask that person why?...I would not dream of asking anyone why they refused me. I pay them the respect of assuming that they have their own reason, and have the right not to be pestered. Sometimes I detect "shall I, shan't I?" and will press the invitation, but that is rare.

El Salsero Gringo
5th-September-2006, 11:27 AM
...if they think they are so good then why are they not competing.Um, can I just point out that not everyone sees competition as the natural pinnacle of good dancing... sorry, thanks, back to the thread...

straycat
5th-September-2006, 11:28 AM
Recently to get out of the comfort zone I've been trying to ask 4 or 5 people each night to dance who I've never danced with before.

Part of the 'out of your comfort' zone thing is going to be, alas, risking refusal. Good for you for taclking this one - it's not easy to start with. The key thing to remember is that a refusal generally says more about the refuser than the refused. There are exceptions to this (for example when a follower refuses someone who likes putting people into dangerous and painful dips) - but if someone you're never danced with before refuses you, that truly doesn't reflect badly on you.



So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

Yes you should, just don't worry about being refused. If someone turns you down, smile, accept that graciously, and go ask the next person straightaway.


My rule has been if I get refused 3 times, I don't ask again, but I'm thinking of revising that down to only asking once.

On any evening, unless the lady's said "ask me later" (I don't usually ask men twice) I'll not ask again. On subsequent evenings, chances are, I'll have forgotten she turned me down earlier (or that I'd ever asked her before). My memory's lousy :blush:




I was once turned down 3 times in one evening by one lady for specious reasons, which really hurt. Especially as she immediately danced with someone else after refusing me! Months later, I thought I must be good enough for her and asked her again. Gobsmacked to get yet another refusal.


You do need to forget about this 'good enough to dance with her' rubbish. I'm good enough to dance with anyone, and I always have been - and everyone is good enough to dance with me**. If someone's vain enough to think I'm not good enough to dance with them - well - they're welcome to their opinion - and I'd rather they refused than danced with me 'on sufference' - I want to dance for the joy of it - not to prove that I'm 'good enough' for anyone.



If someone never intends to dance with me for whatever reason, it would be better if they said that, rather than giving poor excuses.

:yeah:

Stray
** Sure - there are people I don't like dancing with, and have occasionally refused dances myself, but that's nothing to do with then being good enough, but rather because they do annoying things, like putting my back out or ripping my arms off etc.

jivecat
5th-September-2006, 11:34 AM
but don't go putting thoughts in their heads if they do say no - like you said there are any number of reasons she may have said no - the majority of them and most likely nothing to do with you personally

Sadly, I don't think this is true. Yes, there are good reasons for turning people down - tiredness, music, the need to freshen up, being some of them. A sincere refusal will be accompanied by an apologetic explanation, and if you're dealing with A Really Nice Human Being they will come and find you later to prove that their reason was genuine.

But most of the time hotshots leave the impression that they think someone is not good enough to dance with them - which, funnily enough, they never give as a reason for refusal.

If I was going to turn people down on a regular basis (which I am not about to do) then the first ones for the cull would be the ones that for whatever reason I didn't enjoy dancing with. So unless another (convincing) reason is given I assume that I, personally, have been given the thumbs-down.

I sometimes think I'm a bit over-sensitive about this, but obviously no more so than anyone else who's posted on this thread. Thanks, Achelou.

Anyway, don't let them grind you down!

killingtime
5th-September-2006, 11:56 AM
Firstly, good on you for having the guts to ask the "hot shots" to dance, these are the people who will help you to improve to no end if you get a dance with them. I think the best thing to do is keep trying.

Like DJ I disagree with this. The hot shots aren't always the best dancers, they might not help you improve your dancing at all since they might dance the whole dance "bored" or at least looking around the room. Definitely dance with experience dancers though.

I'll try and dance with a few beginners in an evening and, also, try and dance with a few people who are much better dancers than me. I learn from both in different ways.

Little Monkey
5th-September-2006, 12:15 PM
If I turn people down when they ask me for a dance, does that make me a hotshot? (Or is it my black and white shoes....:whistle: :rofl: )

I do turn people down from time to time. Why? Well, I might not like that specific track. I might be tired. I might have a sore back. The person who's asking may have hurt me in the past. Or have really bad BO. It might even be someone I've danced with before, who I really don't like dancing with (for whatever reason). Or I might have just watched that person dance with someone else, and seen the look of agony on his partner's face....

Does this make me a Bad Person? A Hotshot? :confused:

I do (most of the time) give an explanation as to why I don't want to dance (too tired, need to change my top, don't like the music etc). And unless it's someone I really don't want to dance with (yanker, perv or stinker), I will try to find the person for a dance later on.

I don't think it's a deadly sin to turn someone down for a dance, but I also know it's not a nice feeling to be refused. I don't like getting turned down, either, and always think that I get turned down 'cus my dancing isn't good enough (oh, to have better self esteem!). Luckily, there's lots of people out there who do like dancing with me!

My advice is to just keep asking as many different people as posible to dance. Personally I wouldn't ask someone again the same night, if they have already turned me down once that evening.

Good luck, and keep asking everyone to dance!:flower:

Daisy Chain
5th-September-2006, 12:38 PM
How about you go to a venue where you don't know the 'good', 'elite' or 'beginner' dancers from each other and just ask everyone? It's kind of a lucky dip ...

:yeah: I've had some of my best dances at strange venues.

I've even managed to ask a World Champion and a National Competition winner. If I'd known who they were, I wouldn't have had the nerve and would have lost out.

I just adore strange men...

Daisy

(A Strange Little Flower)

Gadget
5th-September-2006, 01:08 PM
Um, can I just point out that not everyone sees competition as the natural pinnacle of good dancing... sorry, thanks, back to the thread...
:yeah:

My tuppence worth: their loss.
I assume that you are there to dance and have a good time - if they don't want to be a part of that, then that's entirley their issue and nothing to do with you.
If you want to dance with good dancers, don't watch where you think they sit - watch the dance floor and see who you think are good dancers. Most of the truley great dancers intimidate a lot of people (just by being good) and so don't get asked as much as you might presume.

Glad to hear that you are dancing with a broad variety of partners :respect: lots of advantages and very few dissadvantages.

fletch
5th-September-2006, 01:34 PM
When I first ventured out of the Midlands, I didn't know anyone, so I went with an open mind and a big smile, and asked everyone,:love: I hope I haven't changed now I know a few more people,:confused: I try not to refuse, my exceptions are, I have already had a dance with the guy and feel he could want more than a dance,:what: I know the guy and he doesn't keep me safe (drops in a busy venue):mad: or overly inappropriate moves, :sick: and never refuse someone I haven't danced with before.:flower:

There is a guy who regularly posts on here, who in my opinion is the best dancer I have ever danced with.:worthy: After my first dance with him I said 'I bet you get frustrated dancing with inexperienced dancers' his reply was 'its my intention to be the best lead I can be, and to achieve this I need to dance with women of all abilities' that comment will remain with me forever.

:yeah: :respect:

keep asking :hug:

KatieR
5th-September-2006, 02:06 PM
But there is one group that I haven't really had the nerve to ask to dance yet. Yes it's the hot shot women dancers (the ones that don't take part in the lessons, sit in a group off to the side of the stage etc) I had my first refusal a few weeks ago with someone on the edge of that group (her privilege I know, she can dance with who she wants to, she might have been tired etc etc - but she probably thought I was rubbish) and it is a bit depressing when it happens to you.

So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

I remember one April Monday evening nearly 18 months ago now, I walked into a little hall called Kent House fresh off the plane from Australia. I didn't know anyone from Adam. I just asked a lot of people to dance because hey, thats what you do at a dance!

That venue was Jango and later on I found out that the people I had asked to dance with were the likes of David B, Tony, RK, Gus, Toby, David F, etc.... had I actually known who any of these people were, I would have run a mile as fast as my little legs would carry me. Some of those people are now very good friends of mine who I wouldn't have if I had let my own fear and intimidation get the better of me.

As they say ignorance is bliss, if you are new to a venue, ask a few different people while you still don't know who anyone is!!

David Bailey
5th-September-2006, 02:50 PM
had I actually known who any of these people were, I would have run a mile as fast as my little legs would carry me.
And who could blame you. :whistle: :grin:

MartinHarper
5th-September-2006, 05:32 PM
MJ is a social dance, and as such it's important to dance with a cross-section of dancing styles, abilities, and attitudes. That includes both people who are much better dancers than you, and people who think they are much better dancers with you.

Thoughts on dancing with "hotshots" who act bored during a dance:
* Dance primarilly for your own enjoyment. You can't force someone else to have fun, but you can have fun yourself and see if that's infectious.
* "Anticipation-catcher" moves may get your follower to pay a little more attention to you
* Now is a good time to try out some of the moves you find harder to lead. All practice is good practice.
* Don't repeatedly apologise (easy to get into that trap when nervous), but do say thanks, and do be appreciative.

As always, the best way to learn is to do it.


So how do you ask them to dance?

I hold out my hand, and say "would you like to dance?".
I tend to do two dances with people, though that does vary depending on my mood. A nice side effect is that it's it impossible to dance with everyone at a venue, so individual dancers who refuse me matter less. Also, when dancing with someone I don't know who I perceive as being much better than me, I can leave it up to them whether they'll then ask me for a second dance.

Mr Cool
5th-September-2006, 06:29 PM
I was once turned down 3 times in one evening by one lady for specious reasons, which really hurt. Especially as she immediately danced with someone else after refusing me! Months later, I thought I must be good enough for her and asked her again. Gobsmacked to get yet another refusal.


Well I would always prefer a lady to say no than dance with me and have a face like a slapped Bottom. :flower:
I only want to dance with ladies who want to dance with me thats half the fun.

As to elite dancers, what is elite? whats good to one is poor to another. I can think of several competition winners who are not that good at free style ( in many people's opinion) curiously I know many Mature ladies who are superb dancers ( in my opinion) who would never win a competition (Judges don't pick them do they :yeah: ) they just love to dance.:flower:
I also dance with people who have been keen dancers for ten years or more who I don't dance that well with. :respect: and then again there is the relativly new dancer who has natural rhythm who is a dream to dance with. thats the fun and variety of dance :cheers:
:waycool: :waycool:

Tessalicious
5th-September-2006, 06:58 PM
My rule has been if I get refused 3 times, I don't ask again, but I'm thinking of revising that down to only asking once. I figure, if she is interested, next time she can ask me. I'm not short of partners who actually want to dance with me!Fair enough, but I can think of occasions where I have had to refuse a dance (exhausted, need a drink, have already promised to someone else etc) and would gladly have gone back for the next one but the guy has disappeared, without having given me long enough to take note of what he looks like/is wearing so that I can find him later. I would say, if the first refusal offends you then don't ask again, if it was done for an understandable reason then always give the person a second chance.

Lynn
5th-September-2006, 07:48 PM
I've done the 'asking without knowing' thing with dancers that I now wouldn't ask.

And I have to make a confession here, OK, so I don't ask as often as other women. But I don't recall ever having been just flat refused. Postponed occasionally - for valid reasons and they've come back and asked me shortly after. Having said that, there are some guys, who I know do refuse dances, who I simply don't ask. If they want to dance, they can ask me, and its nice when they do.

And I don't join the queues either if there are a lot of ladies after one partner, I dislike all that competitive stuff. And I'm sure the 'popular' guys might like to get a chance to ask occasionally as well. Plus, while I would be 'waiting' to ask some really popular guy, I'm missing out on dancing with other people.

straycat
5th-September-2006, 10:37 PM
I would say, if the first refusal offends you then don't ask again, if it was done for an understandable reason then always give the person a second chance.

I don't get offended by refusals. In the rare case when someone does the refusal-on-obvious-pretext, then promptly dances with someone else (or something like that), it doesn't give me a good impression of the lady, but that's about it.

I won't ask again that evening though, unless, as I've said before, the refusal was accompanied by a nice explanation and an invitation to dance later. I just consider the ball to be in the lady's court, and she can ask me, or not, as she chooses. If she doesn't, no problem. If she does, great.

Yogi_Bear
6th-September-2006, 08:31 AM
I've occasionally asked an elite (i.e. highest ability) dancer for a dance without quite being aware of their eliteness. That makes it a good deal easier!

In general I've found that the really good dancers are also very friendly and quite happy to dance with distinctly non-elite partners. As I've said on another thread, I've had excellent dances with Nina and other top-flight teachers.

Problems like condescension, standoffishness and so forth are much more likely to come from - shall we say - 'clique' dancers who feel they have certain standards to maintain....:rolleyes:

under par
6th-September-2006, 09:33 AM
I don't think many of the top lady dancers actually get asked to dance often enough.

I know from what she has posted on this forum LilyB has said she doesn't get asked to dance a lot at some venues.

I have also observed Kate, Bex, Yuko and others at venues sitting out more than dancing some times.

Some men may be in awe of such great dancers but they really don't bite and do love to dance. So ask them.

fletch
6th-September-2006, 11:05 AM
Well I would always prefer a lady to say no than dance with me and have a face like a slapped Bottom. :flower:




But what if she has a face like a slapped bottom, dancing or otherwise:devil:

Ickle Chick'n
6th-September-2006, 11:35 AM
Asking people to dance can be so difficult for a loadsa reasons.When I'm coaching I always end my sessions telling ladies to ask guys as it's often more difficult for them cos they think if they ask, they'll have to be able to lead, a great pressure when you are starting out. I must say though, I have been dancing for about 4 years now and still find it difficult to ask people, not though a fear of being turned down as what's the worst that happens, they say no and you find someone who would like to dance with you instead of waisting time on them, just find it physical imposable to approach people at times!

Asked a guy at Cmaber once, by gently touching his back and saying "would you like to dance?" in my timmid ickle voice... he turned round, looked me up and down and said... "...no, I don't think so!" and walked off. I felt shocked, upset and dirty but my attitude now is fine, I found lots of people who enjoyed dancing with me and some who were pleasantly suprised as they didn't know me. Now I look forward to the day that person asks me to dance and I can choose whether to dance with him and tell him afterwards what he did (as Missy D was gracious enough to do :worthy:) or alternatively...look him up and down and say... "...no, I don't think so!" and walk off! People remeber you, if you danced with them when they asked, if you helped and gave them time when they were learning and the important thing is, as many have said, it's supposed to be for your enjoyment so keep asking people you don't know as you get some lovely suprises, as do they :flower: and don't let snobby dancers put you off, they're not worth worrying about, there are so many other lovely people out there!

I would just like to say however that just because people sit out of lessons doesn't make them hotshots as they may have a heap of reasons, eg. illness/injury or even like I've found lately - I was struggling to stay focussed in lessons so was drifting and it was doing nothing to help me or others as I was pantz so I started just socialising and freestyling for a bit and have now started back in lessons feeling more "with it" and more focused. (better for eveyone believe me, falling into people cos you're very "without it" can be dangerous when you wear very high pointy heels!!! :rolleyes:

Also some people mistake refusals, as I found last Southport when I stumbled across a post from Robd :flower: Saying someone he'd asked had refused him in early hours of morning saying they were tired and had gone onto the dance floor with someone else immediately...That someone was me and I had genuinely been too tired and had been dragged up by someone who wouldn't take no for an answer! ( I felt aweful but didn't manage to get back to Robd like I'd have liked to...wanna catch him this southport thought, if he'll have me!:D So a second chance is sometimes good!

Ask me at Southport if you're there!

TA Guy
6th-September-2006, 11:59 AM
I do not think cliqueyness is the problem.
I am a member of a clique at my local class night. I am not blind, I know this, it is just the way things have developed over the years. Yet, although we do not get asked much by beginners or improvers, we virtually (and I say virtually only because I do not watch my mates *all* the time :)) never turn down anyone who does actually ask... and a subset of those keep asking... and a subset of those even get assimiliated into the clique... Borg like :)

I think cliqueyness can be a symptom in some cases, but usually it boils down to the hotshot... ceroc snob... thing again IMO.

Like dating, fear of asking is your biggest enemy :)

straycat
6th-September-2006, 12:02 PM
Some men may be in awe of such great dancers but they really don't bite and do love to dance. So ask them.
:yeah:

In my experience, the really great dancers virtually always say yes.

robd
6th-September-2006, 01:25 PM
Also some people mistake refusals, as I found last Southport when I stumbled across a post from Robd :flower: Saying someone he'd asked had refused him in early hours of morning saying they were tired and had gone onto the dance floor with someone else immediately...That someone was me and I had genuinely been too tired and had been dragged up by someone who wouldn't take no for an answer! ( I felt aweful but didn't manage to get back to Robd like I'd have liked to


:eek:

Named and (not really) shamed. I shouldn't have put that in my Southport post and we did talk about it after you said it was you. It does give me a chance to talk about my view on refusals. I don't do a huge amount of asking (it's dancing and there's always more men than women) and that which I do tends often to be fairly safe bet and this combination of factors has meant I have been refused sufficiently few times to remember each one quite well. I don't take refusals well and though I have a not quite 'one strike and out' approach (I asked and danced with I Chick'n in the early hours of the next night at Southport), generally if I were to receive a no-reason refusal from someone with whom I had never danced then I would
i - Not ask them again
ii - Refuse them should they ever ask me
Not a particularly productive approach I know but what's good for the goose.

A refusal accompanied by a reason is fine - we all get tired, too hot, in need of water, etc. I occasionally refuse a dance for these reasons but always explain that and try to catch that person for subsequent tracks. Music that is too fast for my particular taste is a different matter - sometimes I will leave the venue and go to the foyer or whatever but I will not refuse dances on the basis of the music. I will explain to people who ask me when Ecuador or something like that comes on that the dance is likely to be crap but not refuse to dance it.



wanna catch him this southport thought, if he'll have me!:D


You might want to reconsider your choice of phrase IC :rolleyes: :D

Lory
6th-September-2006, 01:55 PM
So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

I say always have a go, you'll never know otherwise! :hug:

And never trust the opinion of others, make up your own mind about people from your own experiences!:cool:

You might get a fabulous surprise and the elite dancer of your dreams could make your night!:yum: :drool: :clap:

Or, as has happened to me, one of the 'GREATS' who has the fabulous reputation for dancing with everyone who asks:waycool: , might refuse you 3 times in one night!:rolleyes:

Once cos he'd just arrived and wanted to sort himself out, and requested I come back later :) (reasonable enough;) )

Secondly, cos he was just getting changed and having a drink.. come back again and ask me in a minute :) (reasonable enough;) )

3rd time. he was sitting down and so I went and sat next to him and gently asked 'is this a good time?:flower: to which he replied, I'm going now, i'm shattered!

(was that reasonable:confused: probably :rolleyes: didn't stop me feeling like poo though:sick: )

Flat_Eric
6th-September-2006, 03:26 PM
Yes it's the hot shot women dancers (the ones that don't take part in the lessons, sit in a group off to the side of the stage etc)

Since when does the non-attendance to the lesson make you a good dancer? In my experience, most of the best dancers -the kind that does not need to state how good they are by their social behaviour or by ostentatiously disregard venues where simpler intermediate moves are taught- attend the lessons when they are they're. Don't be deluded by the attitude. You will probably realise in a few months that the people you were so impressed by are perhaps not that good.

Now, about asking:
- 90% of the time, the people you are mentioning will accept your invitation as long as a) you are not apologetic about what you can do; and b) you don't pretend to be a better dancer than what you are at the moment; if you don't believe me, look at a someone like Dale St Rose (http://www.cerocchamps.com/results2005.htm). Dale's style is about doing simple moves as perfectly as possible. Considering his pedigree, one should consider his approach as effective, to say the least. He's not the only one to do that
- Don't get offended if you are refused, just move on. It's only dancing, these people don't know you. If they believe that your dancing revels the whole of who you are and judge you on that, they are probably not worth your while
- A woman will have a good dance as long as you **connect** with her. A fancy 47-beat move will not do that. You looking at her, smiling, being gentle, taking the time to feel who she is, supporting her in what she feels like expressing while dancing with you, saying "thank you" graciously in the end and even taking her back to her seat will
- Some people are just snotty. I've been dancing for quite a few years now and am generally not short of partners. Still, there is one girl who systematically refuses me no matter what. It's been going on since a dance we had during my first year that must not have gone so well. My take: I ask her once every 6 month, just for fun and strongly assuming she will say no. When she does, I tell myself she's missed another fabulous dance, that will rollover, like the lotto jackpot, to the lucky lady who will accept my invitation next.

Rejection only hurts if you believe it does. As long as you are congruent with yourself, attentive to patners and don't dislocate their arm (something quite common with advanced moves...), you can invite anyone, they'll have a good time with you and will accept the next time you ask.

FE,
" The only way to get smarter is to play a smarter opponent" (old chess saying)

Lory
6th-September-2006, 04:03 PM
I tell myself she's missed another fabulous dance,

And you'd be right, she will have also missed out on a totally unique, funny, gentle, silly, expressive and forgiving dance! ;)

whitetiger1518
7th-September-2006, 01:29 PM
And you'd be right, she will have also missed out on a totally unique, funny, gentle, silly, expressive and forgiving dance! ;)

mmmm sounds lovely (wishing bank balance and leave entitlement were much higher - so I could tour London) Are you guys coming up to Blaze??

Cheers

Whitetiger

Lory
7th-September-2006, 02:47 PM
Are you guys coming up to Blaze??



I am :cheers:

jacksondonut
7th-September-2006, 02:48 PM
I am :cheers:

So am I..:whistle: :whistle: :wink:

Flat_Eric
7th-September-2006, 11:18 PM
So am I..:whistle: :whistle: :wink:

Can't... am washing my hair...

TallGuyNiceShoes
8th-September-2006, 03:19 PM
The best dancer doesn't always make for the best fun. Quite the opposite can be true. I will never forget on my first weekender a couple of years back (I of W Rockbottoms) as a fairly average intermediate dancer bravely asking what I considered to be a a great 'dancer' to dance and within a bar or two the look of disappointment on her face as I didn't match up to her expectations. The rest of the dance was clearly torture for her (honest - I wasn't THAT bad) and I felt deflated. I learnt a lot from that experience and will never be that person for anyone else new or otherwise to dancing.

Clearly there are lots of 'elite' dancers who are not at all like this and it is a pleasure to be able to learn from, and enjoy dancing with, them.

Last night made me reflect on what makes me 'dancing happy.' Sometimes it is just a bloody good dance where the dancing chemistry thing kicks in and everything just feels great with your partner but my most enjoyable dance was with someone farily new where the dance wasn't really technical or fancy just lots of smiles and FUN!

Lee
8th-September-2006, 05:02 PM
There are no elite dancers.

However good they think they are, they are not elite. Next time you ask, and I hope there is a next time, please remember this.

:yeah: :yeah:

Just wait 6 months, get better and then when they ask you to dance cause they see how good you are, turn THEM down :devil:

Good for you though :clap: :clap:

Lee

Yogi_Bear
8th-September-2006, 05:11 PM
There are no elite dancers.

There are some fantastic dancers who are way better than us mortals. (most of whom are delighted to dance with anyone. Remember: beginners want to dance like intermediates; intermediates- advanced; advanced- beginners. Advanced dancers do tend to enjoy a dance with beginners for 2 reasons: 1, passing on stuff to people who are where they once were. 2, dancing with beginneres does hone your leading/following skills.)

There are also some, erm, more exclusive dancers: these hang around some venues but not all. There are threads that refer to "Refusal Row" or "Iwontbe Avenue".

However good they think they are, they are not elite. Next time you ask, and I hope there is a next time, please remember this.

Well, if you take the elite to be the top echelon of dancers in terms of ability then yes, if you made an objective asssessment you would come up with a list of elite dancers, allowing for some arguments at the margins as to who was or was not good enough. The problem seems to be with the connotations that have been attached to the word elite, though I'm more familiar with the use of the term in political science. Terms like exclusive, clique, refusal row, hotshot - we're getting into the social context here.

Gadget
8th-September-2006, 09:39 PM
Just wait 6 months, get better and then when they ask you to dance cause they see how good you are, turn THEM down :devil:
oh yea - great idea :rolleyes: nothing like perpetuating the snobbery.

How about this:
Just wait 6 months, get better and then when they ask you to dance cause they see how good you are, give them the best dance they have ever had and then remind them of what they have missed out on with that refusal.

{.. or am I just twisted? :devil:}

David Bailey
8th-September-2006, 10:05 PM
How about this:
Just wait 6 months, get better and then when they ask you to dance cause they see how good you are, give them the best dance they have ever had and then remind them of what they have missed out on with that refusal.
:rolleyes:

Or, ideally:
Just wait 6 months, get better and then dance with whoever you want to, however you want to, and whenever you want to, ignoring the hotshottery of others - because hotshots by definition are not elite anyway?

(Of course, that's the ideal - I personally am as good at holding a grudge as any and better than most. Do what I say not what I do....)

SteveK
9th-September-2006, 01:33 AM
A variation on the theme of asking elite dancers for dances - I've just come back from an evening at Ashtons. I had a lovely evening, and had dances with a wide variety of people.

Whilst the people I asked included some incredibly good dancers; but I was too intimidated to go and ask anyone of the crowd of regular forum posters (I recognised some of them from the photos on their profiles). Are any other of the less regular forum members also intimidated by the popularity of some members? Or should I have had the confidence to approach the regulars - I'm happy asking other elite dancers.....

Lee
9th-September-2006, 01:46 AM
Holly Moses, i (technically) got 2 responses in a row from one of my posts. One if you want to be clever and die.

Gadget i was joking :rolleyes: but have to agree with Mr James. :yeah:

Yer, sod all this snobbery ball, lets just enjoy the dancing. Cut out all this crap about 'I'm better than you'. :angry:

Lee

fletch
9th-September-2006, 04:20 AM
A variation on the theme of asking elite dancers for dances - I've just come back from an evening at Ashtons. I had a lovely evening, and had dances with a wide variety of people.

Whilst the people I asked included some incredibly good dancers; but I was too intimidated to go and ask anyone of the crowd of regular forum posters (I recognised some of them from the photos on their profiles). Are any other of the less regular forum members also intimidated by the popularity of some members? Or should I have had the confidence to approach the regulars - I'm happy asking other elite dancers.....

Did we dance, I hope so :flower:

So come on name names, :eek: who are these intimidating, popular forumites,:rolleyes: did you you dance with witty :na:

:flower:

Lory
9th-September-2006, 09:08 AM
Whilst the people I asked included some incredibly good dancers; but I was too intimidated to go and ask anyone of the crowd of regular forum posters (I recognised some of them from the photos on their profiles).

Did you recognised me, from my profile photo? :innocent: :na: :whistle:

littlewiggle
9th-September-2006, 10:58 AM
A variation on the theme of asking elite dancers for dances - I've just come back from an evening at Ashtons. should I have had the confidence to approach the regulars - I'm happy asking other elite dancers.....

Hiya - Me too - just back from Ashtons after a first visit. Well I did ask a forum member to dance and was promptly refused but never mind hey?!

A word to Kev who refused me a dance - you didn't need to be scared honey, I could see you were a beginner and I would have gone easy with you :rofl: :rofl:

Not sure how many guys I danced with from the forum - but had a couple of lovely dances with Spicy and also thanks to RobD for asking me!

Lory
9th-September-2006, 11:28 AM
A word to Kev who refused me a dance - you didn't need to be scared honey, I could see you were a beginner and I would have gone easy with you :rofl: :rofl:



Aww, he did try to find you I promise but you must have gone. :(

It was a tough job for the men last night, I know some of them even hid over the other side :devil: and I know Kev resorted to taking a break in his car in the end :rofl:

Anyway, it was lovely to meet you! :hug:

littlewiggle
9th-September-2006, 11:32 AM
Aww, he did try to find you I promise but you must have gone. :(

It was a tough job for the men last night, I know some of them even hid over the other side :devil: and I know Kev resorted to taking a break in his car in the end :rofl:

Anyway, it was lovely to meet you! :hug:

It's ok! Bless you! We did leave shortly before one but ahem, were still in london at 2 - slight problem with finding our way home!! It was lovely to meet you too - what a dancer! Fabulous and lovely with it :hug:

Cruella
9th-September-2006, 11:41 AM
I wish people would come over and introduce themselves, i don't know what Little Wiggle looks like and didn't know til just now (when i looked at his profile) what SteveK looked like. We don't bite (well i don't) so if you recognise me please come and say hi. :flower: I only look scary, i'm a pussycat really!:flower: Isn't that so Lory? :D

littlewiggle
9th-September-2006, 11:44 AM
Sorry I didn't get to meet you - it was all a bit daunting last night - felt a bit overwhelmed! Will see you at Southport :flower:

fletch
9th-September-2006, 11:45 AM
We don't bite (well i don't) so if you recognise me please come and say hi. :flower: I only look scary, i'm a pussycat really!:flower: Isn't that so Lory? :D

yerrrr its that Wittybird you need to watch she is the scary one :whistle:

:wink:

:rofl:

SilverFox
9th-September-2006, 11:53 AM
I know some of them even hid over the other side :devil::innocent: :innocent:


and I know Kev resorted to taking a break in his car in the end :rofl: A break! If I had his car I'd take a couple of laydeez....:devil:

Lory
9th-September-2006, 11:55 AM
I only look scary, i'm a pussycat really!:flower: Isn't that so Lory? :D

:yeah: ;)

OUCH...she made me say that :whistle:

Cruella
9th-September-2006, 11:56 AM
:innocent: :innocent:

A break! If I had his car I'd take a couple of laydeez....:devil:

But it's small inside, where would you put your ego? :whistle:

littlewiggle
9th-September-2006, 11:56 AM
:innocent: :innocent:

A break! If I had his car I'd take a couple of laydeez....:devil:

Hiya - I saw you come in and thought I'd ask you to dance a bit later on but you eluded me all night!!! You better run fast next time........

SilverFox
9th-September-2006, 11:57 AM
But it's small inside, where would you put your ego? :whistle:Are we back to the "Sex or Chocolate" discussion again?...

littlewiggle
9th-September-2006, 11:58 AM
Are we back to the "Sex or Chocolate" discussion again?...

Nope she said 'ego' not 'aero'!!!

SilverFox
9th-September-2006, 11:59 AM
Hiya - I saw you come in and thought I'd ask you to dance a bit later on but you eluded me all night!!! You better run fast next time........If you are who I think you are, I might just let you catch me....:whistle:

Cruella
9th-September-2006, 11:59 AM
Are we back to the "Sex or Chocolate" discussion again?...

Your just sore cos i wouldn't give you my 2 fingers last night!:wink:

littlewiggle
9th-September-2006, 12:00 PM
If you are who I think you are, I might just let you catch me....:whistle:

Well from what I hear - that is a compliment indeed! There was nothing stopping you asking me.............!!!

Cruella
9th-September-2006, 12:02 PM
Well from what I hear - that is a compliment indeed! There was nothing stopping you asking me.............!!!

Foxes are pretty good at sniffing out fresh meat. You'll be on the rota soon i'm sure. :D

fletch
9th-September-2006, 05:08 PM
If you are who I think you are, I might just let you catch me....:whistle:


Ho no not ANOTHER b$atch to the Fox's harem :rolleyes:

Yes I know I have probably spelt it wrong, but spell check wont get this:blush:



Well from what I hear - that is a compliment indeed! There was nothing stopping you asking me.............!!!

mmmm she's right Foxy :na:

Littlewiggle just be careful, :really: the Fox is renowned for refusing,:sick: or is that just me:tears:


:D

WittyBird
10th-September-2006, 01:40 AM
yerrrr its that Wittybird you need to watch she is the scary one :whistle:

Oh Gosh, I haven't laughed so much in ages :rolleyes:

CJ
10th-September-2006, 02:32 AM
But it's small inside, where would you put your ego? :whistle:

I'm sure you have somewhere, Di, big enough to hold his ego!!:whistle:

WittyBird
10th-September-2006, 02:37 AM
I'm sure you have somewhere, Di, big enough to hold his ego!!:whistle:

Mouth :rofl:

Lynn
10th-September-2006, 12:13 PM
Whilst the people I asked included some incredibly good dancers; but I was too intimidated to go and ask anyone of the crowd of regular forum posters (I recognised some of them from the photos on their profiles). Are any other of the less regular forum members also intimidated by the popularity of some members? Steve, I found the complete opposite. I first met other forumites at weekenders, I had only been dancing a few months, and it was lovely that lots of experienced dancers from the forum were dancing with me. :hug: But you have to speak to people first!

I wish people would come over and introduce themselves, :yeah:
I think posting on a forum can be an indicator that people are friendly, outgoing and willing to engage in dialogue with people they haven't even met. So why would they be different when you meet them?

SteveK
10th-September-2006, 08:38 PM
Steve, I found the complete opposite. I first met other forumites at weekenders, I had only been dancing a few months, and it was lovely that lots of experienced dancers from the forum were dancing with me. :hug: But you have to speak to people first!




I wish people would come over and introduce themselves, i don't know what Little Wiggle looks like and didn't know til just now (when i looked at his profile) what SteveK looked like. We don't bite (well i don't) so if you recognise me please come and say hi. :flower: I only look scary, i'm a pussycat really!:flower: Isn't that so Lory? :D


I think I've probably answered my original query about being intimidated more about approaching forum members than just elite dancers - the responses I've received to my post indicate that I really should have made more of an effort to introduce myself..... and similarly this applies to others in a similar situation! Some forumites might appear to be "elite dance gods", but based on the messages I've received yesterday/today, they are also fairly friendly too... (although some might bite :drool: )

quiet_flame
11th-September-2006, 07:36 AM
:yeah:
Always say hi,
Forumites are some of the friendliest people I know.

If you're ever in Oz, be sure to search me out,
hell you might even get a dance... I don't follow too badly, when I'm told i'm following

bigdjiver
11th-September-2006, 12:54 PM
There were at least 5 what I would consider "elite" dancers at Bedford on Sunday. I asked 4 of them to dance, and suffered from feelings of inadequacy in all of those dances, and performed below my best. Sorry ladies. It is something that I have to work on, though I do not like the idea of giving sub-standard dances whilst I do so.

CeeCee
11th-September-2006, 01:52 PM
I guess we never know when or why someone will refuse a dance and sometimes responses are out of character. Reading these posts made me think of something that happened recently.


originally posted by Feelingpink
We all get knockbacks and people often turn down a dance for reasons other than 'you'


originally posted by Yliander
like you said there are any number of reasons she may have said no - the majority of them and most likely nothing to do with you personally

I hope these posts help the girl in my story...

I don't know about 'elite' but there is a chap who dances in London whose reputation is well deserved. He's an awesome leader, stylish, strong, cute, charming, funny and he smiles such beautiful smiles. He's good and he knows he's good. I'm fortunate enough to have danced with him often and whether the music is fast or slow, each dance is a sublime experience. I've never been disappointed.

At a Saturday freestyle I was chatting to a lovely confident young lady who asked me to recommend someone to dance with. I spotted this guy and pointed him out. The young lady has been dancing for a couple of years but she didn't have the courage to ask him because she'd seen him dance many times and thought that he would be too good for her. She thought he might refuse. I encouraged her, saying that he's a lovely guy and I'd never known him refuse anyone.

She approached him, tapped him on the shoulder, he turned, she smiled, she spoke, then I was horrified to see him look her up and down, turn his back on her and walk away. She was left standing in the middle of the floor.

I felt so sorry for her. We girls talk about him a lot and no-one has ever mentioned him turning anyone down but I still felt responsible. I felt terrible, I'm sure she felt terrible too.

I didn't see her again that night and she had short break from dancing because of his behaviour. She told me that it knocked her confidence but thankfully she's decided to put it down to experience and has found the courage to ask for dances again.

straycat
11th-September-2006, 02:26 PM
[COLOR="Navy"]
I don't know about 'elite' but there is a chap who dances in London whose reputation is well deserved.

Did you know him well enough to tackle him about it? If we all learned the effect we had on others, it might raise awareness, and make us all more considerate for more of the time...

Certainly there's been the odd occasion when I've caused offence without realising it, and wished I'd been told sooner...

Lory
23rd-September-2006, 01:54 PM
Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

How's your mental health today? And, have you got any bite marks?:D

Andy McGregor
23rd-September-2006, 03:53 PM
Oh dear, oh dear.

Elite dancers?
Cliques?
Hotshots?

Where will it all end?

There are nice people with good manners and there are rude people with no consideration for other's feelings. And there are those who flit between the two camps depending on their mood.

Good manners are nothing to do with dance ability. You don't suddenly get bad manners because you become an accomplished dancer. Some beginners have bad manners too - that's because they have bad manners, not because they are beginners or expert dancers.

If somebody asks a person to dance and that person does not feel inclined to dance they should decline the offer in polite way that shows consideration for the feelings of the person they are refusing. To do otherwise would be rude. And we avoid rude people, don't we? Why would we ever ask that rude person for a dance and put ourselves in the firing line for more rudeness?

Of course we must express some surprise that somebody who has paid to dance the refuses to do so when offered the opportunity. But it is completely acceptable to decline an offer of a dance in a polite way. And, because they've paid to dance there is an expectation that they tell the person asking why they are unable to accept their offer of a dance at this time. Something like, I'm having a rest, don't like this track, etc would do the trick if accompanied by a word like "sorry".

And, while on the subject of revenge refusals, I've never read such rubbish. As well mannered individuals we should never behave in the same way as someone we criticise - it makes us less than equal to the person we have criticised. Not only have we behaved in the same way as that rude person, we have also been a hypocrite in behaving in a way we have said is unacceptable.

And, we must allow people to change. Sometimes those people who've been rude to us will have a change of heart and stop being rude. Give them a chance to become nice. Don't expect an apology, just expect niceness :flower:

So, there we have it. There are no hotshot dancers or refusal rows, there are rude people and there are polite people: some of them are good dancers and some are not. Please make sure you never become one of those rude people, no matter how good you get at dancing :flower:

Clive Long
23rd-September-2006, 05:44 PM
<< solid Aunty McG wisdom from dance heaven >>



And, we must allow people to change.
Especially this :yeah:

Clive Long
23rd-September-2006, 05:58 PM
This has just occurred to me.

I have had a busy old night. I have had my share of mediocre, drag around the floor, suppress-the-bounce kind of dances.

You approach me. My heart fills with dread. I know I am going to be yanked, pawed and none of it to a beat that I can feel. Am I allowed to say "thanks, but no thanks?" No explanations, no apologies. Just "No".

I have been called a hot-shot by three different women so I feel qualified to ask this question. :devil:

Wodge

marty_baby
23rd-September-2006, 06:21 PM
<< solid Andy McG wisdom from dance heaven >>






Bang on Andy! :nice:

fletch
23rd-September-2006, 06:50 PM
And, we must allow people to change. Sometimes those people who've been rude to us will have a change of heart and stop being rude. Give them a chance to become nice. Don't expect an apology, just expect niceness :flower:




Nice one Andy :worthy:

We all deserve a second chance :respect:

:kiss:

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
23rd-September-2006, 07:15 PM
Well I think it depends if she was being rude or not. If she was just being a stuck up snob then I wouldn't bother asking her again, it's her lost. I'm all for improving, but i'm not going to keep asking the same people to dance just because they've got a reputatuon of being good, if you're not gonna have fun then what's the point? Ok, so she might have been tired...but if she was sitting out of all the classes then I don't understand why she turned you down? Try once, maybe try twice, then she can forget it. Nuff said.

David Bailey
23rd-September-2006, 10:09 PM
You approach me. My heart fills with dread. I know I am going to be yanked, pawed and none of it to a beat that I can feel. Am I allowed to say "thanks, but no thanks?" No explanations, no apologies. Just "No".
You can say whatever you want - but if you're that rude, people will get upset. Lie, by all means, but it's good manners to provide some excuse.


I have been called a hot-shot by three different women so I feel qualified to ask this question. :devil:
That's nothing - I was told at a certain class I went to on Thursday night that you were "teaching Jive dancing", so you must be way qualified now... :na:

David Bailey
23rd-September-2006, 10:11 PM
Good manners are nothing to do with dance ability. You don't suddenly get bad manners because you become an accomplished dancer.
I disagree - we're not talking about manners, we're talking about dance etiquette in an MJ environment, which is not always the same as common sense.

For example, a beginner woman might half-expect it to be a "nightclubby" atmosphere, and so turn down a guy because she thinks he's on the pull.

Similarly, some people develop arrogance as they get more experience with dancing, so may be less willing to dance with "the plebs" than they were as a beginner.


And, while on the subject of revenge refusals, I've never read such rubbish. As well mannered individuals we should never behave in the same way as someone we criticise - it makes us less than equal to the person we have criticised. Not only have we behaved in the same way as that rude person, we have also been a hypocrite in behaving in a way we have said is unacceptable.
I agree - but then, holding a grudge for 10 years is a vital part of the dance scene too. :)


There are no hotshot dancers or refusal rows,
There definitely are refusal rows, my friend's mate's sister's cousin met a man in a pub who said there were, and you can't get much better corroboration than that in my book.

Lory
23rd-September-2006, 10:36 PM
I agree - but then, holding a grudge for 10 years is a vital part of the dance scene too. :)


:yeah: I develop a new grudge, almost every week! :D :rofl:

WittyBird
23rd-September-2006, 10:41 PM
:yeah: I develop a new grudge, almost every week! :D :rofl:

Nah no point. I just love to fcuk people off a lot - obviously :whistle:

straycat
23rd-September-2006, 11:26 PM
Nah no point. I just love to fcuk people off a lot - obviously :whistle:

Tart :whistle:

WittyBird
23rd-September-2006, 11:28 PM
Tart :whistle:

You know me so well, thee young fcukwit ye have a lot to learn child. :whistle:

straycat
23rd-September-2006, 11:37 PM
You know me so well, thee young fcukwit ye have a lot to learn child. :whistle:

You know me so little. Fcuking me off is much harder to accomplish than that, oh most ancient and revered one :wink:

WittyBird
24th-September-2006, 11:08 AM
Fcuking me off is much harder to accomplish than that, oh most ancient and revered one :wink:

Cheeky beggar :rofl: Has your infection cleared up yet?:whistle:

straycat
24th-September-2006, 12:16 PM
Cheeky beggar :rofl: Has your infection cleared up yet?:whistle:

Who - me? :innocent:

Yes, it has thanks. You really should have warned me what you had before dancing with me... but I forgive you :wink:

WittyBird
24th-September-2006, 08:26 PM
Yes, it has thanks. You really should have warned me what you had before dancing with me... but I forgive you :wink:

I thought you had that before we danced, IIRC I said 'I've got a stinking cold' and you replied with 'It's ok I'm on Anti Bi's for an embarrassing itch already'

30:15 your serve :D

straycat
25th-September-2006, 08:39 AM
I thought you had that before we danced, IIRC I said 'I've got a stinking cold' and you replied with 'It's ok I'm on Anti Bi's for an embarrassing itch already'

30:15 your serve :D

Clothears :hug: I said 'embarrassing b*tch'!

Silly Aunti Witty...

WittyBird
25th-September-2006, 10:39 AM
Clothears :hug: I said 'embarrassing b*tch'!

Silly Aunti Witty...

silly me, I thought you said 'I got it sh@gging my b1tch':grin:
40-15

straycat
25th-September-2006, 10:58 AM
silly me, I thought you said 'I got it sh@gging my b1tch':grin:
40-15

Out. (inconsistency with past statements, plus too crude, not enough actual humour, plain not up to scratch)

Oh - and that was the end of the first rally, so it's 15-love to me.
I think I've done enough entertaining-the-old-folk, off to do something challenging :wink:

WittyBird
25th-September-2006, 11:01 AM
off to do something challenging :wink:

Christ is that the time, I forgot Sesame Street was on :cool:

GSM

straycat
25th-September-2006, 07:27 PM
Christ is that the time, I forgot Sesame Street was on :cool:

Are you seriously saying that a slanging match with you is less of a challenge than watching Sesame Street? You really shouldn't be so hard on yourself...:hug:

WittyBird
25th-September-2006, 07:33 PM
You really shouldn't be so hard on yourself...:hug:

I wasn't aware we were having a slanging match but if that's what you want I can handle it :whistle:

I thought Sesame Street was your favourite programme :rolleyes:

Yogi_Bear
25th-September-2006, 10:35 PM
I wasn't aware we were having a slanging match but if that's what you want I can handle it :whistle:

I thought Sesame Street was your favourite programme :rolleyes:

Isn't this getting just a touch, how shall I put it...off thread?

WittyBird
25th-September-2006, 10:36 PM
Isn't this getting just a touch, how shall I put it...off thread?

Sorry are you making a point? :grin:

straycat
26th-September-2006, 10:52 AM
Isn't this getting just a touch, how shall I put it...off thread?

We're experts, and this is a form of dance. Where's the problem? :innocent:

Daisy
26th-September-2006, 11:36 AM
I've been going to Ceroc now for 8 months. For the first six months or so I mostly danced with those people who had started at about the same time as me. Recently to get out of the comfort zone I've been trying to ask 4 or 5 people each night to dance who I've never danced with before. Beginners - well I've always asked them and asking the more experienced women who I'd sort of avoided up to now makes the evening unpredictable - but in a good way.

But there is one group that I haven't really had the nerve to ask to dance yet. Yes it's the hot shot women dancers (the ones that don't take part in the lessons, sit in a group off to the side of the stage etc) I had my first refusal a few weeks ago with someone on the edge of that group (her privilege I know, she can dance with who she wants to, she might have been tired etc etc - but she probably thought I was rubbish) and it is a bit depressing when it happens to you.

So how do you ask them to dance? Should I even try - risking irreperable psychological damage in the process?

Can I ask why you bothering to ask these girls/women to dance? Surely there must be plenty of other beginner and intermediate ladies there for you to dance with, and seeing as you've only been dancing for 8 months some of them will be able to provide you with enough skill to help improve your dancing further.

When we first start driving we learn in a small car with a small engine. As we improve we progress to a medium size car with a 1500 or 1800 engine, even a 2000 if we're lucky. Seems to be you want to hop straight into a Jaguar or Porche......perhaps before your capable of driving it. Just because the car looks good doesn't necessarily mean we are able to handle it well, or that it's going to help make us a better driver.

These girls/women, who have knocked you back, consider themselves to be in the super car catagory. Therefore I'd pass them by and let them sit in the forecourt, waiting for their few meager dances with the teacher, or whoever they're hanging out for. Meanwhile, you can be dancing yer socks off with all the other lovely ladies, and gaining loads of relevent dance experience.:clap:

Andy McGregor
27th-September-2006, 04:56 PM
And it isn't just dancers who've been dancing 8 months that get refused. I got turned down twice on Saturday night when I visited the Mojive Black & White Ball in Southampton. Still, this is an improvement. The last time I went to Mojive in Southampton I got turned down 4 times, the time before that I was also refused 4 times! You might even say the Southampton ladies are getting more friendly :innocent:

My impression of Southampton dancers is that there is no culture of saying yes. The 10 Southampton women who refused me a dance in the my last three visits didn't seem to think they were doing anything out of the ordinary in making me feel small, ugly and unloved :tears:

And how was the Mojive Black & White ball? I won't be back, it was so bad I was happy to leave one hour before the end at midnight - for anyone who knows me this is a first, I've never, ever left a venue before the end :mad: Turned down twice. Music too loud. The DJ never finished a track, mixing it with the next track like a club dj. The DJ hadn't set up the sound system properly, there was far too much bass and the microphone fader was set far too high causing earth-shattering feedback for Warren of the Jiving Lindy Hoppers - the DJ didn't get the hint when Warren said "this mic's set so loud I'm holding it so far away I can only just see it". There was one track that actually made me leave the hall it was so loud :tears: And the DJ seemed to play mostly pop, one or two latin tracks and a few swing, but mostly pop and quite a few re-mixes with a thumping Ibiza type beat. On the plus side, the venue was fab, well lit with a great floor: most of the people were friendly and there was a chocolate fountain - but it was £18!!! I can be deafened far more cheaply in my own car if that's what I want:angry:

Rant? :innocent:

straycat
27th-September-2006, 05:38 PM
Rant

I know this is moving off-topic, but...
Before Ceroc South became Mojive, they were actually a lot of fun (as I recall)

Then they did the change, and the fun seemed to gradually drain away :tears:
By the time I actually left the area (2002ish) I'd not been to a MoJive evening in months. Sounds like it's gotten even worse, from what you and others have said - such a shame...
Oh - and vaguely on-topic again, I don't remember there being any 'elite' Mojive dancers the last few times I went :devil: - maybe they found some somewhere... :wink:

Note about the JLH - they drove up from London to Durham on Friday to perform (great show), left Durham at around 11:30pm, drove back to London, then were performing in Southampton on the Saturday - and some had jobs to do during the day.

Don't know where they get their energy from, but I want to find out :worthy: :respect: :worthy:

killingtime
27th-September-2006, 05:46 PM
Music too loud. The DJ never finished a track, mixing it with the next track like a club dj. The DJ hadn't set up the sound system properly, there was far too much bass and the microphone fader was set far too high causing earth-shattering feedback for Warren of the Jiving Lindy Hoppers

Second time I've linked to it but it reminds me entirely of this man's insights (http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/dance/djs.html).

David Bailey
27th-September-2006, 08:50 PM
A tale of Hammersmith refusal... Last week, a guy (nice guy, apparently, normal, reasonable dancer) was seen to ask a Hammersmither lady to dance.

Apparently, she looked him up and down, shrugged, shook her head and walked off.

Nice :angry:

Blimey, it's almost like the average salsa venue, that...:whistle:

Lou
28th-September-2006, 09:41 AM
Second time I've linked to it but it reminds me entirely of this man's insights (http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/dance/djs.html).
Ahhh... but it's all ruined by his front page...


...For three years I enjoyed modern jive at my local Ceroc® club, but I felt that there was more that could be done with dance. I noticed that the better keener dancers were sneaking off to do some mysterious other dance called "Lindy hop". I joined them, and after a while became a convert, body and soul....

He's a Lindy snob! Burn him! :eek:

MartinHarper
28th-September-2006, 09:56 AM
He's a Lindy snob! Burn him! :eek:

Ha.

http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/dance/ceroc.html

sidney
28th-September-2006, 09:59 AM
Second time I've linked to it but it reminds me entirely of this man's insights (http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/dance/djs.html).

Our dj is guilty of all those crimes in Leics, and he is not a dancer so he needs to read that or change his job.:sad:

straycat
28th-September-2006, 10:07 AM
He's a Lindy snob! Burn him! :eek:

Oh - the stories I could tell about Lloyd....

But I'm not going to. Hi Lloyd! :waycool:

Stray
PS - any vegetarians on the forum? (http://lloydianaspects.co.uk/opinion/veggie.html) :devil:

TA Guy
28th-September-2006, 10:31 AM
And it isn't just dancers who've been dancing 8 months that get refused. I got turned down twice on Saturday night when I visited the Mojive Black & White Ball in Southampton. Still, this is an improvement. The last time I went to Mojive in Southampton I got turned down 4 times, the time before that I was also refused 4 times! You might even say the Southampton ladies are getting more friendly :innocent:

My impression of Southampton dancers is that there is no culture of saying yes. The 10 Southampton women who refused me a dance in the my last three visits didn't seem to think they were doing anything out of the ordinary in making me feel small, ugly and unloved :tears:

And how was the Mojive Black & White ball? I won't be back, it was so bad I was happy to leave one hour before the end at midnight - for anyone who knows me this is a first, I've never, ever left a venue before the end :mad: Turned down twice. Music too loud. The DJ never finished a track, mixing it with the next track like a club dj. The DJ hadn't set up the sound system properly, there was far too much bass and the microphone fader was set far too high causing earth-shattering feedback for Warren of the Jiving Lindy Hoppers - the DJ didn't get the hint when Warren said "this mic's set so loud I'm holding it so far away I can only just see it". There was one track that actually made me leave the hall it was so loud :tears: And the DJ seemed to play mostly pop, one or two latin tracks and a few swing, but mostly pop and quite a few re-mixes with a thumping Ibiza type beat. On the plus side, the venue was fab, well lit with a great floor: most of the people were friendly and there was a chocolate fountain - but it was £18!!! I can be deafened far more cheaply in my own car if that's what I want:angry:

Rant? :innocent:

Funny how different people perceptions differ and just to balance things up...

I had a fabulous night, danced my little cotton socks off and stayed until the music stopped (when the DJ got an ovation by the way).

Personally, I would have preferred more variation in the tracks played, but I guess since Mojive had already done balls like 'Jive meets Swing' and 'Latino Loco' this year, this was the pop music one and in their defence, the music was essentially the most requested tracks from there request nights.
Mojive, unless it's a themed night, just isn't for Lindy types, Bluesey types etc.... it's for those who like dancing to Pop.

There must have been, what? 500-600 people there. I did see some Blues, even some WCS when the music suited. My only complaint was I couldn't move on Sunday. Brilliant night. LOL.


I know this is moving off-topic, but...
Before Ceroc South became Mojive, they were actually a lot of fun (as I recall)

Then they did the change, and the fun seemed to gradually drain away :tears:
By the time I actually left the area (2002ish) I'd not been to a MoJive evening in months. Sounds like it's gotten even worse, from what you and others have said - such a shame...
Oh - and vaguely on-topic again, I don't remember there being any 'elite' Mojive dancers the last few times I went :devil: - maybe they found some somewhere... :wink:

Note about the JLH - they drove up from London to Durham on Friday to perform (great show), left Durham at around 11:30pm, drove back to London, then were performing in Southampton on the Saturday - and some had jobs to do during the day.

Don't know where they get their energy from, but I want to find out :worthy: :respect: :worthy:

That's a bit naughty :) At least we all got free t-shirts when the change happened :)
Mojive have lots of elite dancers (in the best sense of the word). What they don't have is elite bluesey type dancers, because of the music played and the slight derogatory attitude towards Blues down here (gropers dance for geriatrics would sum it up I think). Must emphasize I don't share that view and wish there were more ladies down here willing to give Blues a go. It's a shame.

I was actually a bit disappointed in the JLH'ers. I've seen them before more than once and this time it just didn't do anything for me, maybe it was the Durham night and travel catching up. More likely it's just me, as I have seen so many of these caberet things over the years, I'm getting a bit jaded towards them I think. They were also very unfortunate in following Ian and Carmilla at the last ball three months ago, because that was exceptional. Truly worth watching. Made me understand just how bad a dancer I really am, which is a rare thing because I'm a big-headed sod. :whistle:

killingtime
28th-September-2006, 10:56 AM
Ahhh... but it's all ruined by his front page...
He's a Lindy snob! Burn him! :eek:

He has given up Ceroc but he talks about his reason in the post that Martin Harper gives. He also seems to be having the same argument about the Lindy turn as we have about which foot to step back on when doing the first move :rolleyes:.


Our dj is guilty of all those crimes in Leics, and he is not a dancer so he needs to read that or change his job.:sad:

Well I don't think (I've given my opinion in Should DJs Know How To Dance (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7619)) that you need to dance to be a DJ at dance venues but I do think you need to work harder if you aren't and I don't think that is the case with a lot of these DJs.


Oh - the stories I could tell about Lloyd....

But I'm not going to. Hi Lloyd! :waycool:

I don't think he is actually reading this.

Anyway I'm getting way off topic. So yeah elite dancers, and asking them to dance. Umm...

clevedonboy
28th-September-2006, 11:42 AM
He also seems to be having the same argument about the Lindy turn as we have about which foot to step back on when doing the first move :rolleyes:.


Lindy has "rules" (which of course are broken regularly) about which foot a leader will be on at the end of a given (musical) beat. Followers will mirror this. How each partner gets to that point is their choice. So a typical lindy shape begins with a back step but the follower could choose to dance a twist twist as long as her weight is correct at the end it doesn't matter on the leader could use a slip slop or a slide, as long as he leads a back step it's ok. Beats 3 & 4 are typically danced as a triple step but could be a kick down or a slow they all achieve the same. 5 & 6 is where it gets tricky. if dancing a 6 count move the leaders weight ends on the right so a repeat of 3 & 4 is needed. for an 8 count move the weight needs to be on the left so typically this is achieved by a step step but a hang out would be valid too (it would kill a Lindy Turn though). A strong lead on 5 & 6 of an eight count move is crucial to communicate to the follower that she needs to shift her weight to her right at the end of beat 6 and is part of the reason for 8 count moves going horribly wrong for inexperienced leaders. So we're on 7 & 8 - these are the beats where most styling occurs - again a choice of single double or triple time is fine but there are many variants that people have learned to tack onto the end of Lindy turns that in no way change the basic timing of he move. So no it's not like the first move debate.

David Bailey
28th-September-2006, 12:53 PM
{ stuff }
So no it's not like the first move debate.
Except that I also don't read those either :innocent:

straycat
28th-September-2006, 01:33 PM
That's a bit naughty :) At least we all got free t-shirts when the change happened :)

I never got one :confused:
Maybe I'm just bitter'n'twisted because of that...



Mojive have lots of elite dancers (in the best sense of the word). What they don't have is elite bluesey type dancers, because of the music played and the slight derogatory attitude towards Blues down here (gropers dance for geriatrics would sum it up I think). Must emphasize I don't share that view and wish there were more ladies down here willing to give Blues a go. It's a shame.

I think the 'gropers' perception started off when N&N first did some blues workshops in the area - and (according to some of the girls I talked to) either every geriatric groper in the country descended on some of those evenings, or the area just has an incredibly high incidence of geriatric gropers. Maybe they import them from the Isle of Wight :devil:

As for the general musical taste of the region, and at the risk of being even more 'naughty', Mojive seem to have been inspired by the McD's maxim that you can not only train people to eat excrement, but you can also train them to love it :tears: :devil:



I was actually a bit disappointed in the JLH'ers. I've seen them before more than once and this time it just didn't do anything for me, maybe it was the Durham night and travel catching up.

Which routines did they do?

Andy McGregor
28th-September-2006, 02:17 PM
Funny how different people perceptions differ and just to balance things up...

I had a fabulous night, danced my little cotton socks off and stayed until the music stopped (when the DJ got an ovation by the way).

Personally, I would have preferred more variation in the tracks played, but I guess since Mojive had already done balls like 'Jive meets Swing' and 'Latino Loco' this year, this was the pop music one and in their defence, the music was essentially the most requested tracks from there request nights.
Mojive, unless it's a themed night, just isn't for Lindy types, Bluesey types etc.... it's for those who like dancing to Pop. If you like pop and you like/need it loud you would have loved the night. Maybe I need to attend a few more Mojive nights to have my hearing impaired before I can stand those sound levels :whistle:

Personally I prefer a mix of music, I like pop, I like latin, I like swing, nu-tango, etc, etc. A bit of each suits me fine, but a diet of mostly pop played at high volumes is not to my taste. As I said, the rest of the night was fabulous - and I probably would have stayed to the end if it hadn't been so loud it drove me from the venue. But, as the saying goes, "when the music's too loud, you're too old". And I will be 50 on Monday :tears:

clevedonboy
28th-September-2006, 02:44 PM
And I will be 50 on Monday :tears:

are you tarting for rep again?

Happy birthday mate from Mr & Mrs Bum Sticking Out :flower:

TA Guy
28th-September-2006, 03:27 PM
I think the 'gropers' perception started off when N&N first did some blues workshops in the area - and (according to some of the girls I talked to) either every geriatric groper in the country descended on some of those evenings, or the area just has an incredibly high incidence of geriatric gropers. Maybe they import them from the Isle of Wight :devil:

Which routines did they do?

I missed those workshops. Damm. :)


Routines.... Tap, very short bit of pure Lindy, lots of Lindy strolls (line dancing to swing really). Some sixties routine, shuffling routine. Little bit of tailfeather humour. They did two half hour slots I think. To be honest, I stopped paying close attention after a while during both. Needed to rest and recover. :)

Andy McGregor
28th-September-2006, 03:30 PM
are you tarting for rep again?

Happy birthday mate from Mr & Mrs Bum Sticking Out :flower:No, sympathy :tears:

Dear Mr Bum Sticking Out,

I have to write to tell you that you have married the wrong woman. Her bum is perfect and sticks in a lovely way :flower:

Yours sincerely

P. Bottom

Mr Pert Bottom