The demise of double trouble????

[Bill]

Given how few folk have entered double trouble categories at recent comps - and no DT section at the Scottish Comp on Saturday - is the end of DT in sight?

Why, when DT is so much fun are so few folk entering? Do they think it's too difficult; they are unlikely to win; it looks stupid; that it's become too choreographed; too much effort??? :confused: :what:

As someone who has taught DT classes a few times and used to comptete in DT events I still like to watch it and have even thought baout doing it again some time but will there be any events left to compete in??

Any ideas why DT seems to be on the wain? HAs it pased its sell by date??

[TheTramp]

As someone else who quite enjoys doing DT, my only suggestion is that it`s not really taken that seriously. Finding a workshop teaching it is quite difficult - possibly only at a dance weekend - and hence, many people don`t do it, or just do it for a bit of fun...

There wasn`t a DT comp at either of the two competitions I did while I was over in Oz. And it seems that other `fun` categories - like Reverse Roles, Dancing Blind, Battle of the Sexes etc. - have taken over for now.

[bigdjiver]

Perhaps a lot of Double Trouble routines are heavily choreographed and fit better into the Cabaret category.
Natalie did a superb fun threesome class variation at Wellingborough on bank holiday Monday, allegedly suggested by Dave Archer.

[Bop]

I've noticed in general there is less double trouble in Scotland than Nottingham - possibly because John Sweeney wo was a DT master, taught several workshops in Nottingham and that followed through.

Last time I danced double trouble was with John when he did a workshop in Glasgow last year. I think its great fun and would love to do some more.

Bop

[David Bailey]

As someone else who quite enjoys doing DT, my only suggestion is that it`s not really taken that seriously. Finding a workshop teaching it is quite difficult - possibly only at a dance weekend - and hence, many people don`t do it, or just do it for a bit of fun...
I agree. Worse. when it is taught, the teaching is very much at the "Wow, look at this cool move you can do - with two people! Woo-hoo!" level. :rolleyes:

There's very little about musicality, about leading, about how to maintain a connection with two people, about adjusting style to different people, about avoiding doing the same moves with both partners, about.... Well, about anything except the "Isn't this a clever move" stuff.

I'd love to do a serious double trouble class, which actually focussed on these areas - but I doubt it'll happen.

[Patrick]

Why, when DT is so much fun are so few folk entering? Do they think it's too difficult; they are unlikely to win; it looks stupid; that it's become too choreographed; too much effort??? :confused: :what:

Any ideas why DT seems to be on the wain? HAs it pased its sell by date??

I am new to comps, but I've been surprised how reluctant most people are to even consider entering the intermediates. Fear of looking silly against the experts mostly. And if I suggest the higher/more specialised categories, a look of panic usually flashes across the ladies face!

I've had less than 2 hours DT classes, only know about 8 moves which I've hardly had chance to practice, but I would still enter just for fun if I could find partners.

I think its a problem with competitions in general that most people won't do them unless they think they are ready to compete with the best. But if they don't try, they probably never will be! A comp organiser recently encouraged me to enter the showcase section because airsteps weren't allowed in other sections. I said I was only intermediate standard, but the reply was 'even Phil and Yuko had to start somewhere!' Not sure I believe that, they must have been born brilliant... :whistle: :worthy: :worthy:

Oh yes, it often looks too choreographed, and sometimes a little twee.

[killingtime]

I do a bit of double trouble in freestyle but I guess I'd find it difficult to find partners for a comp level DT and generally I'd be competing against the likes of Bill who taught me everything I know (and is much better than me) anyway.

Still I'd like to do it, for a laugh though.

[jivecat]

I think its great fun and would love to do some more.

Bop

I think it's quite good fun - but not nearly as much fun as one-to one dancing.

[robd]

When I began dancing (all those years ago :rolleyes:) I really, really wanted to do DT. It looked so cool and seemed to have a practical benefit given the inevitable surplus of followers to leaders. I missed the first time it was taught at my local venue as I was too nervous to join the intermediate class and then missed the 2nd time it featured in an intermediate routine there too somehow. I planned on doing John Sweeney's class at Nov Camber but found it too crowded and difficult to see in that lower room. Then I just lost interest. Dancing for me is all about the connection with your partner and I don't feel that DT would give me anywhere near the same feeling as one to one dancing does.

I have had one dance with 2 very lovely forum ladies together :awe: - since we did little more than see how closely we could hold one another I am not sure that qualifies as DT but, boy, was it fun for me :yum:

Robert

[Bill]

I agree. Worse. when it is taught, the teaching is very much at the "Wow, look at this cool move you can do - with two people! Woo-hoo!" level. :rolleyes:

There's very little about musicality, about leading, about how to maintain a connection with two people, about adjusting style to different people, about avoiding doing the same moves with both partners, about.... Well, about anything except the "Isn't this a clever move" stuff.

I'd love to do a serious double trouble class, which actually focussed on these areas - but I doubt it'll happen.




Agree with your comments David. Unfortunately, like many categories it would appear that having some 'wow' moves not only attracts attention but can help dancers win a competition and probably get the audience going.

If Fran, Denise and I were good at anything I think it was on musicality and trying to find breaks in the music so we could try and play a little.

Some DT teams were heaidng for a more 'sleazy' approach and others were clearly choreographing a whole routine - regardless of the music. The class we taught at Southport last year was very busy and folk seemed to have fun but if style and technique is what people are after then look no further than our own Scot who teaches DT as well as anyone and I still think he, Shona and Alison were a fabulous team.

If it's meant to be about nice moves and obvious lead and
follow what about a fun comp - a DT 'Jack & Jill' ???

I certainly hope DT does pick up again as it is great fun to do and watch. :cheers:

[bigdjiver]

DT may be dying in comps, but it is a common occurrence in the CC class freestyles I attend.

[David Bailey]

Agree with your comments David. Unfortunately, like many categories it would appear that having some 'wow' moves not only attracts attention but can help dancers win a competition and probably get the audience going.
Sure - that's what competition dancing is all about. But DT seems to be about nothing but the "Wow" stuff, whereas it's possible to get classes on 1-2-1 dancing which focus on the other areas.


If it's meant to be about nice moves and obvious lead and
follow what about a fun comp - a DT 'Jack & Jill' ???
Ahh - now that would be interesting to see...

[killingtime]

If it's meant to be about nice moves and obvious lead and
follow what about a fun comp - a DT 'Jack & Jill' ???

Jack and Jill and Jill has a lot of appeal. I like lucky dips (I liked your suggestion a couple of nights ago about rotating again if you get through to the next round as well) and I'd probably be more likely to enter this than a "normal" one.

Though it would mean that you wouldn't be able to go for a theme where you could wear heels, Bill :D.

[MartinHarper]

There's very little about musicality, about leading, about how to maintain a connection with two people, about adjusting style to different people, about avoiding doing the same moves with both partners, about.... Well, about anything except the "Isn't this a clever move" stuff.

Indeed. I've come to regard Double Trouble as a pure "gimmick" dance, to be compared with blindfold dancers or continuous hijack dances. It's tough to take seriously a dance style where the phrase "please hold hands" is introduced as an important component of leading. Hokey-cokey references also do nothing to dispell the gimmick image.

Is Double Trouble anything other than a gimmick dance? Anyone got any videos of non-gimmicky Double Trouble? Best I could find was:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3627310350946049538
(ugh - Salsa!)

[Cruella]

I've had less than 2 hours DT classes, only know about 8 moves which I've hardly had chance to practice, but I would still enter just for fun if I could find partners.


At the Scottish comp last year i decided 2 hours before the DT round that i'd enter, i found 2 lovely ladies Tiggerbabe and LittleEm and we entered our team, it was the most fun i've ever had in a comp. OK may not have looked very professional but we enjoyed it! So just go for it Patrick. I personally find it boring to follow DT, i prefer to lead it. (I guess that's the dominatrix in me. :rolleyes: )

[ducasi]

At the Scottish comp last year i decided 2 hours before the DT round that i'd enter, i found 2 lovely ladies Tiggerbabe and LittleEm and we entered our team, it was the most fun i've ever had in a comp. OK may not have looked very professional but we enjoyed it!
I thought you looked rather good – nicely co-ordinated, some clever moves, and nice interplay between the three of you. :respect:

[David Bailey]

The worst bits about DT, for me, are:

Clever changing-of-hands without any purpose other than to say "Ooh, look, we're all holding hands together, aren't we clever"
Complete lack of musical interpretation. No-one ever stops for example. No pauses, because they don't look good.
Always doing the same move on both ladies
No clear indication of any connection


DT could be a great concept, but I agree with MH, at the moment it's a gimmick. Doesn't help when people dress up, change roles, etc - none of that makes me want to treat it seriously.

[MartinHarper]

Complete lack of musical interpretation. No-one ever stops for example.

Come now, at least 50% of any double trouble dance is spent with a follower wiggling on the spot whilst something clever is done with the other one.

[David Bailey]

Come now, at least 50% of any double trouble dance is spent with a follower wiggling on the spot whilst something clever is done with the other one.
Yeah , but that's not "pausing to interpret the music", that's "not being able to multi-task" :rolleyes:

[Bill]

Come now, at least 50% of any double trouble dance is spent with a follower wiggling on the spot whilst something clever is done with the other one.



Have to stronlgy disagree with you on both posts Martin. Unfortunately DT has become a bit gimicky and more and more complicated moves require one follower to wait around while the leader does something with the other follower. This, IMHO, is not 'real' DT but may be what judges now expect. If judges scored leaders down for having 1 follower standing still - or for obvious choreography then maybe there would be more focus on all 3 dancing together.

In Edinburgh Scot has always taught moves where there is continuous lead and follow - almost always involving both followers at the same time. When I competed I always made an effort to have both girls dancing with only a few moves requiring one of them perhaps in a comb while I led the other into a move.

Just go back a few years to Viktor, Lydia and Mick winning the Ceroc comp and you'll see superb dancing and swapping of leads showing us all you don't need big flashy moves - just well executed and fluent moves.

[Bill]

The worst bits about DT, for me, are:

Complete lack of musical interpretation. No-one ever stops for example. No pauses, because they don't look good.



DT could be a great concept, but I agree with MH, at the moment it's a gimmick. Doesn't help when people dress up, change roles, etc - none of that makes me want to treat it seriously.



Again, the fault may lie with the competition rules and the judges. As with other sections marks are awarded for appearance and 1 or 2 marks can make a real difference.

In at least 2 comps the girls and I did break and try and play with the music but some of the tracks played really don't allow for any great interpretation. As for changing roles - it's great when a team can change leaders during the track because it's more difficult to do and shows an ability to dance both parts eg Mick, Viktor and Lydia when they won in London ( sorry - second mention in 2 posts).

ps Cruella and the girls looked wonderful last year and had a hoot. With another 30 mins practice who knows what would have happened! :wink:

[David Bailey]

As for changing roles - it's great when a team can change leaders during the track because it's more difficult to do and shows an ability to dance both parts eg Mick, Viktor and Lydia when they won in London ( sorry - second mention in 2 posts)
Yeah - but so what? You don't see role-changing in 1-2-1 dancing competitions do you? (I now have an image of Lily leading DavidB into an aerial :) )

It's a gimmick.

[bigdjiver]

Yeah - but so what? You don't see role-changing in 1-2-1 dancing competitions do you? (I now have an image of Lily leading DavidB into an aerial :) )

It's a gimmick.To me it was a work of art.

[David Bailey]

To me it was a work of art.

OK, it's a good gimmick :)

[Bill]

Yeah - but so what? You don't see role-changing in 1-2-1 dancing competitions do you? (I now have an image of Lily leading DavidB into an aerial :) )

It's a gimmick.


Now there's an image !!!!:D

but only a few triples actually change lead so it's not compulsory and I still think it shows great ability and co-ordination to do it effectively and smoothly.

Be nice if 'gimmicky' moves were dropped and dancers concentrated on the music and on showing clear lead and follow. But as I said the winners of some comps have won with the more flashy and gimmicky moves so maybe you can't blame the competitors for doing what they think judges want :rolleyes:

[MartinHarper]

Maybe you can't blame the competitors for doing what they think judges want

When I call Double Trouble gimmicky, I'm really only going by what I see on the social dancefloor, rather than competitions.

[cms]

ive never competed at double trouble....ive never compteted in anything actually! but i often do double trouble at freestyle sessions, mainly with people i know. ive only done 8 hours of workshops and a few moves but like 1 to 1 dancing the lead and follow is really important and the guys have led me into dt moves ive never 'learned'!

i think it can be great fun!

C x

[Minnie M]

Yeah - but so what? You don't see role-changing in 1-2-1 dancing competitions do you? (I now have an image of Lily leading DavidB into an aerial :) )

It's a gimmick.

Check out Martin's avatar :worthy: :respect: taken during the DT he won at the Ceroc Champs with LilyB and his Ozzie girlfriend (sorry forgot her name - think it was Janet)

Personally the only person I enjoy doing DT with is DavidB & LilyB and that is because it is reasonably simple and usually to Rock 'n' Roll music.:clap:

Really really enjoyed the Rogers DT at WSM this year though :respect: but it wasn't DT as we know it :blush: :yeah:

[Sparkles]

I really enjoy double trouble, both leading and following, it's yet another added dimension to something I love doing and provides an oppertunity to share it with even more of my friends.

There are several problems though in that quite frequently we all fall about in fits of giggles and are having too much fun to take it too seriously :blush:. Another thing is that finding both good instructors and space to dance are problematic. I do DT workshops wherever possible at weekenders, but nowhere (that I know of) offers them outside of weekenders (nor do I expect they would be particularly well subscribed). As for practicing, most of the venues I go to are so crowded that doing DT is practically out of the question, there just isn't enough room!

It's a shame it's on the decline though... :sad:

[killingtime]

Another thing is that finding both good instructors and space to dance are problematic. I do DT workshops wherever possible at weekenders, but nowhere (that I know of) offers them outside of weekenders (nor do I expect they would be particularly well subscribed).

Scot was organizing a workshop in Edinburgh but had to cancel due to lack of numbers. Me and two lovely ladies were looking forward to it, I don't know how many other were signed up though.

Hoping he tries again though. I loved Bill's workshops at the BFG and would love to learn some more moves to my limited DT range.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Perhaps a lot of Double Trouble routines are heavily choreographed and fit better into the Cabaret category.

Ive noticed that in the last few years too, but no GOOD Double Trouble trio have set "routines" and only individual moves are choreographed. Judges dont like this and they can tell - I remember there was a trio of girls at C2D comp that were always doing choreographed moves, and quite rightly, they never got placed.

[Night Owl]

well I love double trouble and tho not great at it ,and cert not ready for any competitions,try and practice in freestyle as often as i can up here in Inverness,and look forward to the next workshop BTC :respect: runs on DT:clap:

[Bill]

Check out Martin's avatar :worthy: :respect: taken during the DT he won at the Ceroc Champs with LilyB and his Ozzie girlfriend (sorry forgot her name - think it was Janet)

:

I remember that - I was in the same comp and witnessed Martin doing the double superwoman - now is that a great move - or just a gimmick ??:confused: :rolleyes: