Spinning & Spotting

[Green-eyed Monsta]

:flower: Hi all!
I've been trying to learn to spot, but find it's actually making me dizzy. :sick: I've read some of the other threads and I think I'm following the instructions....

How important is it for the lady to "spot" while spinning?
Sometimes men will spin a lady as fast as they can, as many times as they can - do you still try and spot then?
And are men supposed to spot too, or is it just a girly thing?

[WittyBird]

Spotting is only good when pregnant (full term ) :what:

[ducasi]

How important is it for the lady to "spot" while spinning? In my experience, very few MJ dancers spot – or at least, if they do, they don't do a very good job of it.

Frankly, spotting looks weird, is difficult to do and don't make a big difference in dizziness – as you've found trying to spot can make you more dizzy.

[Twirly]

I actually find spotting helps enormously, but it does depend on the conditions/who I'm dancing with, and I have no idea if I'm doing it right or not, but it works for me. More experienced/better dancers will probably have better advice, but...

I actually use my partner as my spot - helps me maintain some sort of connection and tells me when to stop (but then if I'm spinning rather being turned, I only do one spin out of choice as yet - maybe more later). When it doesn't work is if he's moved away from where I was expecting him to be, or if it's club-style lighting and he's either disappeared into the gloom, or I come round to find a spotlight shining in my eyes (I hate this! :angry: )

You might want to practice your spinning and spotting on your own, in private. I agree, it's not easy - I learnt as a child in ballet, and it's amazing what stays with you!

[Freya]

Hmmm good points from all!

I found that when I learned to spot about 10 yrs ago during ballet training it did make me dizzy initially because it was totally different to how you would normally spin. It took time for me to adjust!

However it did stand me in good stead! I now can't do it properly as the way I spin in MJ is different style wise to how I learned to in Ballet! As Ducasi pointed out...spotting properly can look weird in MJ. I also found that I can't spot as well if I'm put into really fast spins!

So on to my point...I've modified how I spot to suit me and you will probably do the same.

Twirly made a good point about using your partner to spot as it helps connection and it tends to bring you back to face them and prevent overspin!

Traditionally you will focus on your "spot" start top turn leaving your head and eyes focused then whip your head around to re-focus when you can't turn anyfurther without taking your eye's off the "spot".

What I do is instead of leaving your eye's focussed on the spot I will whip it round as soon as possible so I'm leading the turn with my head and shoulders.

As I said it's not traditionally spotting but it does help me prevent myself from being dizzy and I think it looks better!

Although when doing really slow turns then keeping focused on your partner until the last possible moment will intesify the connection and mood of the dance!

So basically a case of trial and error is what is called for! Find out what works for you?!

[Twirly]

:yeah: What Freya said.

Also, been thinking, it sounds odd, but I unfocus my eyes whilst in the actual spin, as it's the watching everything go by really quickly that makes me feel nauseous. So I focus on partner, start spin, unfocus/relax eyes slightly, then as my head comes round, actively look for my lead...

[Sheepman]

In my experience, very few MJ dancers spot – or at least, if they do, they don't do a very good job of it. Probably true, but the majority of the best dancers do it, no doubt in part due to training in other dance styles, e.g. in ballroom or ballet.

I don't agree that it looks weird, maybe that's a matter of taste, but watching someone execute a series of perfectly balanced spins (e.g Nina or Robert Cordoba), spotting each one, looks far better to me than someone with a "wooden neck." I'd be interested to know how much attention judges give to spotting in competitions. (David...?)

And yes, it applies to the men too, but of course we get less practice :whistle:

It's definitely easier to practice on your own, than when dancing freestyle, it's easier to do on single turns than multiple turns, and I find it easier to do when doing spins rather than being led into turns by your partner.
Regarding the dizziness, there are 2 main ways in which the spotting should make this better, firstly the fluid in your balance mechanism doesn't have time to settle in the same way as it does if you have a continuous centrifugal force applied to it. Second is the visual effect, watching the world spinning around you will make you dizzier than focusing on a single point. When being led into fast multiple spins, the usual advice is forget spotting, total :respect: to those that can still do it.

Don't expect to get it right in a hurry, after several years of trying, I think I can do it OK on a single spin, given a few more years, I might master doubles...

Greg

[ducasi]

For an example of how spotting can look weird check this solo performance by Benji Schwimmer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0uRA1pGKqg), right about the 48 second mark...

[MartinHarper]

And are men supposed to spot too, or is it just a girly thing?

It's good to spot as a leader, as you're supposed to be looking after your partner to some extent. Spotting helps keep an eye on her and the dance space around her. That said, most leader-spins tend to be quick singles, so it doesn't matter much.

[Lynn]

Glad to hear that it makes you dizzy at first. I tried to learn it, but like GEM I found it was making me dizzier. :sick: I thought that maybe it just didn't work for everyone and stopped trying. I'd love to do it, I think it looks good and hope it would, eventually, help with feeling dizzy after multiple spins.

I'll give it another go.

[spindr]

If I conciously spot -- I get dizzy.

I think the problem is that I try to bring my head back to the exact spot, the momentum from the spin will carry me past where I intended to view. In effect, I overshoot -- and that can make me dizzy. If I turn the head round and stop slightly before the exact spot, then the momentum from the spin will naturally carry it into view -- and that seems to help. Probably lousy technique -- but feel free to try it.

SpinDr.

[David Bailey]

Frankly, spotting looks weird, is difficult to do and don't make a big difference in dizziness – as you've found trying to spot can make you more dizzy.
I think spotting done well can look good.

Also, I think spotting allows you a slight period of time (fractions of a second) where you can gain awareness of what your partner and the people around you are doing - e.g. to help to ensure you don't bump into them.

You don't really get that if you just keep your head moving around continuously, as it's all a bit of a blur.

[ducasi]

Wow, I just got my first ever negative rep for my initial comment on this thread. :really:


I think spotting done well can look good.I stand by what I said. Maybe slower spotting is ok – but we're not ballet dancers.


Also, I think spotting allows you a slight period of time (fractions of a second) where you can gain awareness of what your partner and the people around you are doing - e.g. to help to ensure you don't bump into them.

You don't really get that if you just keep your head moving around continuously, as it's all a bit of a blur.I'm not sure I follow – spotting means you're going to be less able to see what's going on around you – most of the time you'll be looking at your partner, and when you're not, things will be (should be) even more of a blur.

[Dave Hancock]

I don't agree that it looks weird, maybe that's a matter of taste, but watching someone execute a series of perfectly balanced spins (e.g Nina or Robert Cordoba), spotting each one, looks far better to me than someone with a "wooden neck." I'd be interested to know how much attention judges give to spotting in competitions. (David...?)

Would agree with you Greg that it doesn't look weird, don't think that much attention would be given to it by jusdges but would be surprised to see anyone look half as sharp not spotting over someone who did, certainly any time you see "proper" dancers dancing this is fairly obvious as the "wooden neck" style does tend to make people fall off the end of their spins.

[Dave Hancock]

In my experience, very few MJ dancers spot – or at least, if they do, they don't do a very good job of it.

Frankly, spotting looks weird, is difficult to do and don't make a big difference in dizziness – as you've found trying to spot can make you more dizzy.

Yes I'm the nasty person who negative repped you Duncan because quite frankly what you wrote was imho guff.

Spotting serves a number of purposes, following on from repping you I decided to try and phrase what I conseidered the benefits of spotting to be but give up and went to oneof many dance web-sites who give a little time and thought to spotting:-

"The following is a list of the most common benefits of spotting during turns:

Keeps dancer oriented and aware of the movement, direction, and location of the body in space.
Prevents disorientation caused by lack of visual focus.
Increases the overall speed of the rotation.
Makes the spin appear much faster and sharper than it actually is.
Reduces dizziness associated with spinning.
When you spot, the goal is to keep the head fixed in space while the body turns underneath. This is best accomplished by maintaining visual focus on a particular object in the room."

Without trying to be offensive I think what you wrote may be true for beginner'ish dancers which you've probably most experinece with but I can assure you that there are a fair few in the MJ scene who spot very effectively and in doing so lets them turn a lot more fluidly and shaper than those who don't.

Dave

[ducasi]

Without trying to be offensive I think what you wrote may be true for beginner'ish dancers which you've probably most experinece with but I can assure you that there are a fair few in the MJ scene who spot very effectively and in doing so lets them turn a lot more fluidly and shaper than those who don't. I'll keep my eye out for them this week. Perhaps I just am not noticing them.

[ducasi]

Something I've just thought about...

When doing turns, etc., often ladies are told to keep their elbows in front of their faces so they can see them and know where they are – hopefully not in their partner's face!

If you're spotting though, how can you do this?

[Yliander]

Something I've just thought about...

When doing turns, etc., often ladies are told to keep their elbows in front of their faces so they can see them and know where they are – hopefully not in their partner's face! ?????????????:confused: :confused: A girls elbows in front of their faces?!? I can't imagine any teacher telling a girl to have their arms up infront of their face - arms should be kept low - near to waist centre of gravity

and as I'm posting here are my thoughts on learning to spot/using spot in Ceroc

when first using spotting it will throw your spinning off as it is requiring you to spin a manner that is completely foriegn to you - it's very unatural to snap your head around in the manner required.

when talking about spotting in Ceroc - it's important to remember that it is different to spotting in ballet - although it is the same basic technique

in modern jive you don't spot exactly the same way as you do in ballet because you are

generally spotting at a slower speed,
to a moving object (your partner) and
very often not a complete 180 degree revolution


once a dancer is comfortable with spotting they will apply it with out really thinking about it - and with all skills it's when you apply it unconciously that you really feel the benefits of it

[ducasi]

?????????????:confused: :confused: A girls elbows in front of their faces?!? I can't imagine any teacher telling a girl to have their arms up infront of their face - arms should be kept low - near to waist centre of gravity
I'm not referring to free spins, but turns and assisted spins when the lady's hand is held above her head.

[Yliander]

I'm not referring to free spins, but turns and assisted spins when the lady's hand is held above her head.Oh that makes more sense

although I wouldn't advise anyone to spin that way - my reccomendation would be for the girl to keep her hand level with her hand level with her forhead and bringing the arm in so that the elbow is dropped sp that it is about the level of the her chin this causes it to be relatively tucked into the body - if a girl has her arm in a position that causes her elbow to be at her eye level it would stick out rather a long way and be rather dangerous

[David Bailey]

Wow, I just got my first ever negative rep for my initial comment on this thread. :really:
You clearly upset the Spotty Mafia. :rolleyes:


I'm not sure I follow – spotting means you're going to be less able to see what's going on around you – most of the time you'll be looking at your partner, and when you're not, things will be (should be) even more of a blur.
It works for me - that instance of relative stillness allows me to get a snapshot of the situation around me, and adjust if required.

I know that I've avoided problems using this technique - for example, if my partner has assumed I'm just doing a single spin and gets in too close, I can quickly get my arm out of the way to avoid elbowing her in the face.

That could be just me, of course, everyone else may be able to turn their head and look at things around them easily.

[ducasi]

... if a girl has her arm in a position that causes her elbow to be at her eye level it would stick out rather a long way and be rather dangerous
I guess I haven't clearly expressed the advice given, sorry – I've heard it so many times, I thought it would be a commonly understood piece of wisdom. I guess not.

The idea is not so much to keep the elbow at eye level or directly in front of the face, but rather it is ensuring the elbow is kept in front of the body, rather than out to the side.

As suggested to me in a PM, this is indeed related to keeping a good frame during the spin, and is good advice.

However, I've heard a number of respected teachers say this helps you keep your eye on your elbow, when they themselves undoubtedly spot during spins and so wouldn't be able to see their own elbow.

I guess for dancers who don't spot, and have trouble keeping frame during spins it is good advice, and once absorbed, the elbow will just always be in the right place, allowing the dancer then to spot her spins without worrying about elbows and frame.

[Yliander]

I guess I haven't clearly expressed the advice given, sorry – I've heard it so many times, I thought it would be a commonly understood piece of wisdom. I guess not. never assume anyone knows anything - to me is is good and bad advice...


The idea is not so much to keep the elbow at eye level or directly in front of the face, but rather it is ensuring the elbow is kept in front of the body, rather than out to the side.

As suggested to me in a PM, this is indeed related to keeping a good frame during the spin, and is good advice.

However, I've heard a number of respected teachers say this helps you keep your eye on your elbow, when they themselves undoubtedly spot during spins and so wouldn't be able to see their own elbow.

I guess for dancers who don't spot, and have trouble keeping frame during spins it is good advice, and once absorbed, the elbow will just always be in the right place, allowing the dancer then to spot her spins without worrying about elbows and frame.

Ok that makes more sense.

you do want to keep your arm ahead of your body and not out to the side

However I would think that the suggestion of keeping your eye on your elbow is a stepping stone rather than a permenant thing - being able to see your elbow lets you know that your arm is in the correct position - but once you are comfortable with the position/skill actually sighting your elbow would be no longer needed and IMHO watching your own elbow through a spin is not going to be conductive to dizzy free spinning

[DavidB]

Spotting is not the only way of preventing dizzyness. When was the last time you saw an ice skater spot?

Your brain gets 2 sources of information when you spin - one from the inner ear, and the other from your eyes. There is not a huge amount you can do about the inner ear, but you can significantly change the information from your eyes.

If you just start spinning whilst looking out at the room, your eyes reinforce the information from your ears that you are turning round.

When you spot, you are trying to minimise the amount of time you look at something moving, and maximise when you are looking at something fixed. Your brain then tries to make sense of this conflicting information, and hopefully assumes your head isn't moving.

However the problem with spotting is that you are moving a large heavy weight (your head) independently of the main part of your body. This makes it very easy to lose balance when you are learning how to do it.

Another way of not getting dizzy is to look at something that doesn't move as you spin, but without looking down. My only experience of this is when doing a turning lift with Lily. I will typically have one of my arms held above shoulder height that I can see, and I will focus on this as I turn. I don't see why something similar wouldn't work with an assisted turn.

Also practice helps your brain get used to spinning. Or so I'm told...

As far as judging goes, spotting would be quite low down on my list. Doing assisted turns and free spins on balance, at a variety of speeds, and a variety of revolutions, would be far more important.

[Lynn]

However the problem with spotting is that you are moving a large heavy weight (your head) independently of the main part of your body. This makes it very easy to lose balance when you are learning how to do it.Very helpful to know. I will perservere with learning how to spot now that I know I will have to go through a 'it gets worse before it gets better' phase. I don't think anyone ever told me that, so when it made me dizzier initially and more likely to go off balance, I just thought it wouldn't work for me.

The key thing I want in spins, and lack at times, is control. Control in balance, timing, direction - if spotting helps me to improve that, then I'll work on it.

[ducasi]

And now I've had my second ever negative rep. :what: Maybe I'll stop stating my honest opinions and just go back to the herd mentality.

Baaah!

Nice, though, to read comments from DavidB that seem to agree with what I've been saying to some degree. Strangely, I recall something similar happening last time I got into "me against the world" discussion.

Oh well...

[Gadget]

I think that 'spotting' in the classical "head whipping" style can make dancers look jearky and bird-like. Personally I don't think it looks good because the head movement is out of time with the rest of the body - like a dancer who turns too fast for the beat of the music and has to wait for their partner to catch up.

I have no idea what I do; look at a point, close my eyes and open them when I'm round I think :confused: Will need to find out. For lots of spins and rotations, I either do them in 180º segments so I can watch where I'm going, or try and fix the path I want to take and then focus on my partner while burling and rely on my peripheral vision to avoid collission.

I think that practice has a great deal to do with it, as does past dance experiance (in my case head-banging; try swurling your head {hair} round in circles for 3 mins without getting dizzy! :what: )

Other things that I find help are; taking a beat or so to regain ballance before doing another move (step/wrap/walk/pose...); immediatly reversing the turn to unwind (but not as far); coming to a gradual hault rather than an emergency stop.

I remember seeing an ice skater in a spin where her head went to one side during a fast spin to create a cool shape - that can't be easy! But the fact I've seen it done means I know it can be done (without falling over) so spotting is not essential to good spinning.

[azande]

And now I've had my second ever negative rep. :what: Maybe I'll stop stating my honest opinions and just go back to the herd mentality.

C'mon Duncan, don't throw your toys out of the pram just because a couple of people disagree so strongly with you to neg. rep you...

At the end of the day that should be the whole point of it!

[timbp]

Other things that I find help are; taking a beat or so to regain ballance before doing another move
I have heard that followers often don't have this option.

Some leaders apparently expect a sextuple top turn to lead into a complex pretzelly knotty thing.
Not a problem for me, as I can only lead a sextuple top turn with one follower (about 70% of attempts) and I can't lead any pretzelly knotty things.

[ducasi]

C'mon Duncan, don't throw your toys out of the pram just because a couple of people disagree so strongly with you to neg. rep you... Don't worry Luca, I don't think I'd make a good sheep anyway. :D

[Daisy Chain]

:yeah: What Freya said.

Also, been thinking, it sounds odd, but I unfocus my eyes whilst in the actual spin, as it's the watching everything go by really quickly that makes me feel nauseous. So I focus on partner, start spin, unfocus/relax eyes slightly, then as my head comes round, actively look for my lead...

:yeah: I do that, but I don't know how I learned to do it. One thing I have noticed is that I always finish facing my partner (unless the helpful soul has moved round my circle). How do I manage this? Is it magic?

Daisy

(A Revolutionary Little Flower)