Dangerous moves w/o asking. Wot do u do?

[Patrick]

I guess we should all know you don't do tricky drops and lifts without asking beforehand, but what's the limit, and what do you do if someone exceeds it?

I have a dance partner who is a relative beginner. Last night someone did an ambitious move with her without asking, and strained her back (as far as I can tell, the cliffhanger airstep as in the Ceroc logo). We are just about to start practising today for a competition... She thought about telling him he should have asked, but didn't. Someone also hugged her so hard she strained her neck. :sick:

Strictly speaking, its none of my business, but I feel a little responsible as other men have probably seen us practicing ambitious moves together and maybe assume its OK? I have deliberately avoided trying moves like the cliffhanger with her as I know her back is not strong.

What should I do? What should my partner do? :confused:

(serious question, this is not a joke)

[Simon r]

I guess we should all know you don't do tricky drops and lifts without asking beforehand, but what's the limit, and what do you do if someone exceeds it?

I have a dance partner who is a relative beginner. Last night someone did an ambitious move with her without asking, and strained her back (as far as I can tell, the cliffhanger airstep as in the Ceroc logo). We are just about to start practising today for a competition... She thought about telling him he should have asked, but didn't. Someone also hugged her so hard she strained her neck. :sick:

Strictly speaking, its none of my business, but I feel a little responsible as other men have probably seen us practicing ambitious moves together and maybe assume its OK? I have deliberately avoided trying moves like the cliffhanger with her as I know her back is not strong.

What should I do? What should my partner do? :confused:

(serious question, this is not a joke)

Try some gentle streching before you practice this should be over a half our period so you are warm before you start.

Keeping your back straight and not allowing arching would also help

I would suggest talking to david B or Lilly B for the best advice.


They proberbly might suggest resting for a few days to let your partners back recover.

[straycat]

Always a hard one.
Hard and fast rules, at least one of which he evidently broke...

No arials ever without previous discussion with your partner.
No arials ever on a social floor (there's some debate about virtually empty social floors, but as a general thing, it holds true)

He needs to be told - if he isn't, he'll keep doing it to other people - he especially needs to be told that he's injured someone. This isn't to make him feel guilty - it's just to make him aware.

Definitely have a word with some teachers - for a lot of moves, there's ways a follower can block them entirely, if she doesn't want to be led into them (unfortunately, that doesn't hold true for everything). Well worth looking into.

Oh - and she should maybe think about things like yoga, or pilates, if she doesn't already. I do pilates myself, and the benefits it's had for my back (I have a weak back also) have been amazing.

[Twirly]

If she feels she can't mention it to him, ask one of the taxi dancers to have a quiet word, or get the teacher to make a general announcement in the class. The latter would be good to serve as a reminder to everyone, and would have the advantage of making the point without singling him out or getting into a confrontation.

Depending on how bad her back is, she might want to consider seeing a chirpractor or physio as well, particularly if you are going in for a competition. (And good luck btw!)

[Yliander]

I have a dance partner who is a relative beginner. Last night someone did an ambitious move with her without asking, and strained her back (as far as I can tell, the cliffhanger airstep as in the Ceroc logo). We are just about to start practising today for a competition... She thought about telling him he should have asked, but didn't. Someone also hugged her so hard she strained her neck. :sick: a hug strained her neck?!?! She sounds like a fragile one.



I guess we should all know you don't do tricky drops and lifts without asking beforehand, but what's the limit, and what do you do if someone exceeds it?


Strictly speaking, its none of my business, but I feel a little responsible as other men have probably seen us practicing ambitious moves together and maybe assume its OK? I have deliberately avoided trying moves like the cliffhanger with her as I know her back is not strong.

What should I do? What should my partner do? :confused: the difficulty with this is what is an ambitious move – that is a very large variable – the move in the ceroc logo – looks to me like a move that in Aus is called a Hanger and is considered a baby/beginner aerial and when done correctly by both parties puts no strain on the either parties back. One person’s ambitious move is another’s bread and butter – if a lead asked me are you happy to do ambitious moves I would be rather confused as to what he wants.

If a girl doesn’t want to do dips/drops at all then she should inform the lead at the commencement of the dance – this has worked for me, haven’t had to do it often but when injured or not 100% would only do those sorts of moves with my dance partner.

An issue that I see for leads in the UK doing dips/drops/small lifts/aerials with unfamiliar partners is that as these sorts of moves are not taught particularly often many girls don’t know basic technique for them and therefore respond inappropriately and there is an increased risk of injury to both parties

Not really any advice so far so here goes – sounds like she should probably say no dips/drops/lets/aerials to dance partners she’s not familiar with and yes if a lead is dancing with an unfamiliar or beginner especially a beginner actually he shouldn’t be pulling moves that require prior skill knowledge

Specific to your partner – if her back and neck are so fragile that a hug can cause strain it may be a good idea if she did some training to strengthen her core/back/neck muscles – my choice would be pilates, yoga is also good for this as well

[Patrick]

[QUOTE=Yliander;273482]a hug strained her neck?!?! She sounds like a fragile one.

Well I saw the post-dance hug - it was very vigorous, so I assumed she knew him well. Actually she had never met him so it was completely inappropriate.

She said perhaps she should wear a badge saying "Fragile, handle with care", but I don't think she should need to really. But yes, she has unidentified back and neck problems which are easily triggered.

[Yliander]

Well I saw the post-dance hug - it was very vigorous, so I assumed she knew him well. Actually she had never met him so it was completely inappropriate.

She said perhaps she should wear a badge saying "Fragile, handle with care", but I don't think she should need to really. But yes, she has unidentified back and neck problems which are easily triggered. to be injured by even a very vigorous makes her fragile to me.

I sufferfrom neck problems that used to be easily tiggered strengthing work did wonders on this - IMHO your dance partners best defence is to strengthen her neck and back so they are less easily triggered

especailly as you two are wanting to get into obviously more complicated moves many of which require a fare bit of stength from the follow

[David Franklin]

to be injured by even a very vigorous makes her fragile to me.

I sufferfrom neck problems that used to be easily tiggered strengthing work did wonders on this - IMHO your dance partners best defence is to strengthen her neck and back so they are less easily triggeredIn my experience, although strengthening is a good thing, it only really helps if you have time to "tense" the muscles - if you're not expecting the move (or hug!) to be violent, it's still quite easy to aggravate things, particularly if you're already carrying an injury elsewhere in your spine.

And although I agree strengthening is usually going to help, it may well be there's an underlying problem that is always going to be there. I've had neck/shoulder problems for years - I saw physios and did all manner of stretching and strengthening - it helped somewhat, but it was never "right" and every now and then it would "go" again. It turns out I have a bit of bone sticking out of one of my discs, and the only true fix is surgery.

[Gadget]

Can a lead lead this move without the appropriate cooperation (and knowledge) from the follower?

If the follower knew what was coming up, why go into it?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Can a lead lead this move without the appropriate cooperation (and knowledge) from the follower?

If the follower knew what was coming up, why go into it?The leader can try - and then the follower can react badly, or late. Ouch.

[straycat]

The leader can try - and then the follower can react badly, or late. Ouch.

:yeah:

Blocking unwelcome moves takes experience and practice. Not always easy.

[Dorothy]

I don't think you men out there should ever assume the lady is willing and able to partake in anything but safe, tried & tested Ceroc moves. If we could reverse roles and throw men into all sorts of lunges, leans and dips, maybe you'd realise how painful it can be! I am not a fan of dangerous moves, but I like to admire them from afar :nice:

[straycat]

I don't think you men out there should ever assume the lady is willing and able to partake in anything but safe, tried & tested Ceroc moves.

To be completely honest, I've learned not even to assume that much :whistle:

[marty_baby]

to be injured by even a very vigorous makes her fragile to me.




Hi Patrick,

I'd have to agree with Y'der on this one. Dancing is physically demanding, and competition dancing even more so.



But hey, its not all bad:

1. You have found a nice dance partner, and you are taking her under your wing - thats the nice side of competiting.

2. Sounds like she really likes to dance. This Competition prep has highlighted weaknesses, which she can work on.

3. Working on the weakness will improve the whole enjoyment of her dancing - both in competition AND social dancing. It will also act as prevention to injuries for the future.



Best of luck with Scotland guys!

Martin

[David Franklin]

I'd have to agree with Y'der on this one. Dancing is physically demanding, and competition dancing even more so.Did I miss something? It didn't sound like it was the competition dancing was causing any problems - it was some idiot throwing his partner into an aerial without asking. (Yes, the hug sounds a bit more unusual, but from personal experience, once you've got one injury, it doesn't take much to pull something related).

Yes you want to be fit for competition dancing, but you also want to be smart. You don't have to do moves that aggravate your anatomical frailties, after all.

[marty_baby]

Did I miss something? It didn't sound like it was the competition dancing was causing any problems - it was some idiot throwing his partner into an aerial without asking. (Yes, the hug sounds a bit more unusual, but from personal experience, once you've got one injury, it doesn't take much to pull something related).

Yes you want to be fit for competition dancing, but you also want to be smart. You don't have to do moves that aggravate your anatomical frailties, after all.



Hi DF,

I didn't say competition dancing was causing the problems.

Perhaps I should add a bit to my earlier post.....
"....I'd have to agree with Y'der on this one. Dancing is physically demanding, and competition dancing even more so.... If a Dance partner is more fragile than average - that needs to be taken into account. That is not a bad thing, everyone is different - but its just a factor to be put into the Competiton prep, and choice of moves."


Best Wishes
Martin

[DavidB]

Can a lead lead this move without the appropriate cooperation (and knowledge) from the follower?

If the follower knew what was coming up, why go into it?
You can't 'lead' the lady to do something like this (by my definition of leading anyway.)

But you can physically 'make' the lady do moves like this quite easily.

There are some people who appear to define leading as anything you can make the lady do without telling her in advance.

[MartinHarper]

If she has "unidentified back and neck problems which are easily triggered" then I'd recommend that when dancing with someone new, she states "I have a bad back and neck, so please treat me gently", or something similar.


If we could reverse roles and throw men into all sorts of lunges, leans and dips, maybe you'd realise how painful it can be!

We can. I find it hard to imagine a painful lean, though. Could you provide a little more info?

[DavidB]

I find it hard to imagine a painful lean, though.Put the lady into a sway, with her hand behind her back. Now make her lean backwards, but keep her hand at the same height.

[Tessalicious]

We can. I find it hard to imagine a painful lean, though. Could you provide a little more info?Or do a simple comb lean, but bring your hips out of contact with the lady's so there is no support for the middle part of her body. Too many guys do this because this is taught as an easy lean and so without much technical detail, and it bloody hurts.

[Patrick]

Hi Patrick,

I'd have to agree with Y'der on this one. Dancing is physically demanding, and competition dancing even more so.



But hey, its not all bad:

1. You have found a nice dance partner, and you are taking her under your wing - thats the nice side of competiting.

2. Sounds like she really likes to dance. This Competition prep has highlighted weaknesses, which she can work on.

3. Working on the weakness will improve the whole enjoyment of her dancing - both in competition AND social dancing. It will also act as prevention to injuries for the future.



Best of luck with Scotland guys!

Martin

Hi Martin

Thanks for your input, very helpful. In an attempt to reduce any confusion :confused: , this thread is about my partner for another competition, not Scotland. Wonder Woman and I are doing the Scottish Champs, but we haven't met yet.

You are right to mention the comp in relation to the freestyle 'accidents'. As I implied, this kind of incident could stop our preparation if my partner is injured, and we might even have to withdraw. :tears: I can understand now why some competition couples don't dance with other people, especially in the runup to a comp. :sad:

Patrick :cheers:

[dance cat]

a hug strained her neck?!?! She sounds like a fragile one.
I may have this wrong but didn't David Seaman cause himself a serious back injury by doing something like picking up his coffee cup (or was it sneezing?) and this was when he was still the England goalie! He could hardly be described as fragile! It is surprisingly easy to injure yourself and once you have an injury it can then come back very quickly.
As someone with joint problems I tell everyone I dance with that I don't do drops or lifts and some men are very good about it and others see it as a reason to attempt them even more. The advice about asking teachers to demonstrate how to 'get out' of these moves has been useful for me but the best thing might be to speak to someone qualified about strengthening the back muscles to provide more support. A good physio is priceless!

[bigdjiver]

It is not necessarily fragility. I like doing lifts whilst dancing, and some with 6 ft tall ladies, but the only time I strained my back was doing some banal beginner move, when my foot caught briefly on some gum on the floor. Whatever popped out caused me fieresome pain, but fortunately for me it popped back just as quick, and I have not been troubled in the years since.

[Missy D]

When I first started Ceroc so many men used to put me into drops even though I used to tell them that I was a beginner. Quite often I strained my back especially when men did that terrible "back breaker" drop from one side to the other. After a few strains I had a personal trainer show me how to strengthen my back and since then (fingers crossed) my back has been ok. Alot of men I have not danced with before do kindly ask me if I do 'drops' which is really considerate.

I was dancing with my regular dance partner on thursday and have been doing this particular drop move for a couple of years now. Out of the blue this couple just piled into us causing my latest injury. I now have a neck injury which is very painful. I landed up in A & E last night as my doctor was worried that I may have broken something.

Once I get back to into dancing I will have to tell people not to do any drops with me. Any ladies that dont like drops or cant do drops should tell the man as soon as the dance begins. And those that dont mind drops beware of the dangers that can happen on the dancefloor.

[Patrick]

Hi Missy D


I was dancing with my regular dance partner on thursday and have been doing this particular drop move for a couple of years now. Out of the blue this couple just piled into us causing my latest injury. I now have a neck injury which is very painful. I landed up in A & E last night as my doctor was worried that I may have broken something.

Really sorry to heat about your injury, hope it turns out to be not too serious. :flower: :flower: :flower: Just goes to show what can happen even when you and your partner are being careful.


When I first started Ceroc so many men used to put me into drops even though I used to tell them that I was a beginner. Quite often I strained my back especially when men did that terrible "back breaker" drop from one side to the other.

Yes, thats just what I mean. You would think leaders would be particularly careful with beginners, and not do this kind of thing without permission and rehearsing it carefully off the dancefloor first.


Alot of men I have not danced with before do kindly ask me if I do 'drops' which is really considerate.

Yes, the usual teacher advice is always ask, every time you dance with someone, even your regular partner. You never know if they have had an injury since last time or just don't feel like being thrown around. However, if you say 'yes', some guys evidently think it gives them licence to try out all their trickiest moves on you... I just spoke to another dance partner about this. One time she answered 'yes' to the 'do you do drops?' question. She told me "But I didn't think that meant actually to drop me on the floor... I haven't danced with him again".


Once I get back to into dancing I will have to tell people not to do any drops with me. Any ladies that dont like drops or cant do drops should tell the man as soon as the dance begins.

Yes I agree. Or even before the dance begins! Ladies hardly ever say this in my experience. Sometimes even the gentlest of leans is too much, and it helps to know that in advance.


And those that dont mind drops beware of the dangers that can happen on the dancefloor.

I suppose accidents can always happen even if you are very careful. But that doesn't excuse reckless behaviour, on either side. I have received injuries saving ladies who launch themselves kamikaze style towards the floor at the merest hint of a possible drop, sometimes when I had no intention of doing one. :confused: :eek:

Best wishes
Patrick :cheers:

[Gav]

I guess we should all know you don't do tricky drops and lifts without asking beforehand, but what's the limit, and what do you do if someone exceeds it?

I have a dance partner who is a relative beginner. Last night someone did an ambitious move with her without asking, and strained her back (as far as I can tell, the cliffhanger airstep as in the Ceroc logo). We are just about to start practising today for a competition... She thought about telling him he should have asked, but didn't. Someone also hugged her so hard she strained her neck. :sick:

Strictly speaking, its none of my business, but I feel a little responsible as other men have probably seen us practicing ambitious moves together and maybe assume its OK? I have deliberately avoided trying moves like the cliffhanger with her as I know her back is not strong.

What should I do? What should my partner do? :confused:

(serious question, this is not a joke)

Crikey, I'd been dancing about 4 months and had learnt the 1st move seducer and was dying to try it out. My best friend is a great dancer and her and her partner had been doing all kinds of mad and dangerous moves that night. I finally got a dance with her and did the seducer. It was done properly and all went well, then she walked off the dance floor and gave me a huge *******ing for not checking with her first.

My new-found confidence was shattered and she has apologised since for being so harsh, but I've never done any leans, dips or seducers without asking first since then.

I haven't learnt any drops, lifts or aerials yet, but I would never dream of leading one without asking first.

Someone (you or your partner) should really tell everyone who does that sort of thing without asking that it's not acceptable, but you might want to do it a bit more gently than my friend did!

If everyone who experiences it tells these people that they must ask first, they might get the message?

[Alice]

Yes I agree. Or even before the dance begins! Ladies hardly ever say this in my experience. Sometimes even the gentlest of leans is too much, and it helps to know that in advance.
Ok, I'd agree with this in principle- certainly you should warn your partner if you are dancing with an injury or if you never do drops before you start dancing.

However, sometimes it's not until the dance begins that you begin to get a feel for whether you will feel safe doing a dip with someone. In Oz, where the norm is to have 2 dances in a row, you can use the first one to test the water a bit and then be a bit more ambitious in the second dance. In London, where the norm is one dance, you don't always have a chance to suss your partner out before he starts throwing you into dips (ok, he should have asked first). In that case I generally abort if it doesn't feel right- or hang on for dear life so I don't hit the floor:devil:

[whitetiger1518]

I've only started to do drops in the occasional intermediate class. I am finding them quite hard, even with partners that are quite used to my style.

I don't have as much strength down my right side as is in my left, so even with partners that are familiar with me I wouldn't want to risk being dropped or (eventually) have ariels done on me without asking... It would probably have to ask that they don't do any ariels at all with me, and limit myself to beginner drops (I have no wish to land heavily on anyone!)

Cheers
Whitetiger

[timbp]

I'd like to see more teaching about aborting dips, drops and other dangerous moves.

Often a dip or drop is taught, and the teacher will say to abort if it's not set up properly, but nothing is said about how to abort without breaking the dance. There are two aspects to this: (1) follower decides not to dip, what does she do instead (which should still be a "follow" of the dip/drop lead); (2) follower does not dip, what does the leader do, other than look stupidly at her wondering how to continue the dance?

Recently I was dancing with someone and I led a dip without asking first. In this particular case we had plenty of room, there was no chance of collision, and the dip was set up perfectly.
So I didn't watch the dip. After setting up the dip, I started looking around, thinking about what to do next.

It was quite a shock when I heard my partner say "I don't do dips". I looked at her, and she was in a sit position, supported by me, where I had assumed she would be in a dip position. She had aborted the dip, but it felt no different to me than if she had done the dip. She had followed my lead, but not done the dip. -- That is not taught in any class I've been to, even in special dips workshops.

Obviously, I had not forced her into anything -- I set up the move and supported as much weight as she gave me (in this case, almost nothing).

Although I was a bit embarrassed at having led a dip without first asking, I am more happy that I experienced how an advanced follower can abort without breaking the dance. (The day after my dance with her, the follower taught an aerials workshop.)

[bigdjiver]

I'd like to see more teaching about aborting dips, drops and other dangerous moves...I would guess that trying to abort such moves would be much more dangerous than going with the flow.

[robd]

Whatever popped out caused me fieresome pain

That's why the button fly was invented BigD