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Frankie_4711
30th-August-2006, 06:31 PM
What are your views on Sabotage?

Leaders: Do you enjoy being sabotaged occasionally? Does it annoy you that you are no longer (albeit temporarily) in control? Does it put you off and ruin your train of thought/flow?

Followers: Do you ever use sabotage? If not, why not? Would you if you knew more about it/knew more moves etc?

Or whatever else you want to say on the matter!

I have learnt 2 sabotage routines, and have only taken away one move I can manage to use in freestyle ... some of the moves seem to require the lead to know that they're about to be sabotaged (eg I learnt one where you 'sabotage' a man-spin, except the man can't actually try to execute a proper man-spin as he would in normal freestyle, because he's not supposed to turn or the woman can't get into the right position!). Some of the other moves (at least the ones I've learnt) seem quite complicated and I just don't think I'd be able to carry them out on some unsuspecting man (one was an octopuss sabotage that involved all sorts of complicated leg work - I'm sure I'd just end up kicking him!).

I do enjoy using my one little move though, and have taken quite a few guys unawares. Most seem to enjoy it (at least, they smile or have a laugh and none have yet vocalised any complaints!), although some seem to think they've done something wrong, and one even asked me how he could lead it(!). I now 'sabotage' the ones that are getting used to it by NOT doing it when they think I'm going to! I don't use it on just anyone though - I do try to assess their capability and will only do it to someone I think will 'cope'.

I did do it to one of my teachers once and he liked it so much he taught it in one of his classes a few weeks later (a class I, sadly, wasn't at!)

Magic Hans
30th-August-2006, 06:35 PM
What are your views on Sabotage?

Leaders: Do you enjoy being sabotaged occasionally?

Does it annoy you that you are no longer (albeit temporarily) in control?

Does it put you off and ruin your train of thought/flow?
...

Errr ..... yes, no and yes!!!!

I remember the first time that I was sabotaged, on a first move at Stockport. It so threw me, that I had to resort to an eight beat arm-jive before I regained my composure!!!

Has there been a poll on this yet?? If not, maybe it's time for one!!

Mostlysane
30th-August-2006, 06:39 PM
I love it. Throwsthe next 2 or three moves i had planned out of the window. And it sure makes me pay a lot more attention to the partner.

I wish it was taught more often in the classes. I've only ever seen it in the fun routines they teach as ice breakers in the freestyles.

Andreas
30th-August-2006, 08:09 PM
Dangerous is all I can say ... and have said that before. ;)

Take the time when you are given and don't risk dislocated shoulders and twisted fingers by trying to get the better of the lead. You are not only risking your help but also that of the lead. I personally care for your health and even more for mine.

Magic Hans
30th-August-2006, 08:14 PM
Dangerous is all I can say ... and have said that before. ;)

Take the time when you are given and don't risk dislocated shoulders and twisted fingers by trying to get the better of the lead. You are not only risking your help but also that of the lead. I personally care for your health and even more for mine.

I mostly disagree with this. Dangerous, yes, if any manner of forcing or holding is happening, ie where the lead is using force or the follow is holding.

It situations where both lead and follow is light, I can see no problem.

David Bailey
30th-August-2006, 08:17 PM
What are your views on Sabotage?
It's Evil Beyond Words.


Leaders: Do you enjoy being sabotaged occasionally? Does it annoy you that you are no longer (albeit temporarily) in control? Does it put you off and ruin your train of thought/flow?
No, Yes, Yes.

Transfer of control should be, well, controlled - it should well-signalled both at the start and the end of the transfer.

Surprise change-of-leads are just plain silly - they may be fun in a muckabout kind of way, but so is pulling a funny face, that doesn't make it dancing. To me it's in the same league as the "kiss-on-the-tummy" thing discussed elsewhere - some people like it, some don't.

David The Grumpy.

David Bailey
30th-August-2006, 08:21 PM
It situations where both lead and follow is light, I can see no problem.
I've caused a major injury to a partner just leading a return with a slightly-unexpected twist. I've been dancing quite a long time, and she's a highly-experienced Ceroc teacher - so there's no such thing as totally safe.

But my concern is mainly with dance flow...

Beowulf
30th-August-2006, 08:38 PM
as a relative beginner if a woman took control from me and sabotaged the move that I was suggesting she do It would probably throw me quite considerably.. and would probably end up doing the in and out or side to side until I could think of what to do next. or until the dance ended.. which ever came first (probably the latter.. I'm not a fast thinker when it comes to moves)

Yogi_Bear
30th-August-2006, 09:38 PM
as a relative beginner if a woman took control from me and sabotaged the move that I was suggesting she do It would probably throw me quite considerably.. and would probably end up doing the in and out or side to side until I could think of what to do next. or until the dance ended.. which ever came first (probably the latter.. I'm not a fast thinker when it comes to moves)

Ah, this is the crux of it. You are suggesting that she dances, or inviting your partner to dance, a certain move. She considers and decides that something else would be more appropriate and leads it. This may throw you out of sync. Or it may not. Depends....

Gadget
30th-August-2006, 09:51 PM
What are your views on Sabotage?
Sabotage Treacherous action to defeat or hinder a cause or an endeavor; deliberate subversion

I sabotage all the time: I lead what the follower expects to be one move and I sabotage them half way through it to do something else. It's part of leading.

It's like leading when the follower isn't following - they are in auto-pilot (or have been taught that in this move you go from A to B to C and reset to D with a step-back-return-step-back :devil:.)

Some followers do occasionally sabotage me to lead for a bit, but reacting to the follower doing something I haven't lead so much a part of my dancing that I simply sabotage them back on the next beat. (most of the time unintentonally.)

My thoughts on whether it's good or bad - Dosn't phase me one way or another: I can take the lead back at any point. :D

frodo
30th-August-2006, 10:43 PM
What are your views on Sabotage?

Leaders: Do you enjoy being sabotaged occasionally? Does it annoy you that you are no longer (albeit temporarily) in control? Does it put you off and ruin your train of thought/flow?

Followers: Do you ever use sabotage? If not, why not? Would you if you knew more about it/knew more moves etc?

It's fine IMO - makes the dance more interesting without the leader having to think too hard.

The main exception is if the lady is doing alot of backleading, and I'm trying to get my lead in early with enhanced firmness. Proving there is a decent contrast between mainly responsive following and the hijack it's great.

ducasi
31st-August-2006, 12:02 AM
I'm cool with a bit of hijacking – just so long as it's for a purpose.

Some of the moves I like have a built-in invitation to do whatever you like now... Some followers like to do there own thing – which can make me look good, others just follow the suggested lead, and others yet ignore the lead and anticipate the move they think I'm leading next.

I'd much rather have a hijacker on my hands than an anticipator.

I'm not keep on elaborate hijacks though that involve the follower leading both herself and me. I like to decide for myself how I'm going to respond to my follower.

Lynn
31st-August-2006, 12:16 AM
OK. I'm getting confused. (But then again I've had two very tiring evenings and the biggest question taxing my tired brain at the moment is why am I not in bed already?)

By sabotage do you mean taking control of the leading? I don't do that, but I do at times vary my 'degree' of following. I take time to add my creative input into the dance (depending on my partner and how he feels about it). But I don't think that the same as sabotaging? If I'm following, I'm following. I might take time to add in decorations or varing the timing of my follow, but its like a pause in following, not taking control. I think.

bigdjiver
31st-August-2006, 12:40 AM
What are your views on Sabotage?

Leaders: Do you enjoy being sabotaged occasionally? Yes. Twice in about ten years I have really enjoyed a sabotage. One was where I was leading a yo-yo and the lady used her left hand to push off against my upper arm and do a double spin under my right arm. A justifiable reaction to the surprises I had been springing on her. The other involved a tickle under the chin.

Does it annoy you that you are no longer (albeit temporarily) in control? Does it put you off and ruin your train of thought/flow?Yes. Too often it ruins the dance. My brain is too tiny to deal with yet another variable. I have just about learned to cope with the lady backleading, or taking the initiative at a neutral point, or even "maypoling" (just stand there and I'll dance around you). I am still learning how to cope with the situation where when I have spent three moves formulating a favourite bit of choreography that goes with the music, and lining up the space to perform it, and the lady firmly blocks me and goes into "worm wiggling on fishing line" mode. I react by defensive dancing, and letting the lady have her own way.

Lynn
31st-August-2006, 12:46 AM
I am still learning how to cope with the situation where when I have spent three moves formulating a favourite bit of choreography that goes with the music, and lining up the space to perform it, and the lady firmly blocks me and goes into "worm wiggling on fishing line" mode. I react by defensive dancing, and letting the lady have her own way.Because of course the lady would never have a favourite bit of the music that she might enjoy responding to having had the last few partners she danced to that track with completely ignore the music.

I guess it comes down to deciding (as a follow) if you are dancing to a lead and his understanding of the music, or if you are dancing to a piece of music together, inspiring one another.

DavidB
31st-August-2006, 12:55 AM
What are your views on Sabotage?
Improvisation is the lady taking advantage of an invitational lead.
Embellishment is the lady adding something extra whilst still following the lead.
Sabotage is the lady deliberately not following an indication lead.

I like it when the lady improvises or embellishes a lead. Sabotage is a bit different.
1st time :wink:
2nd time :really:
3rd time :sick:
4th time :angry:

Lynn
31st-August-2006, 01:04 AM
Improvisation is the lady taking advantage of an invitational lead.
Embellishment is the lady adding something extra whilst still following the lead.
Sabotage is the lady deliberately not following an indication lead.That's a helpful distinction, thanks.

So what is varying timing? Eg I might take longer to do a return, slow down and ronde round (if it fits the music, not just for the sake of it). Its not invitational, I'm following the direction of the lead but not the timing, so am I embellishing or sabotaging?

bigdjiver
31st-August-2006, 01:45 AM
Because of course the lady would never have a favourite bit of the music that she might enjoy responding to having had the last few partners she danced to that track with completely ignore the music.
Oh yes she would, and I know she would, and in the last experience I was lining up a first time partner for one of my "Oooh, I liked that" moves leading into an own brand lady invite to play. She had already had two "worm on a line" sessions that she had instigated. It would have been better if she could have managed something a lttle different each time. If someone is going to interrupt they should have something to say, and not repeat themselves. David B has it right. :mad:

but the rep gremlin would not let me reward him :mad: :mad:

Gadget
31st-August-2006, 07:24 AM
So what is varying timing? Eg I might take longer to do a return, slow down and ronde round (if it fits the music, not just for the sake of it). Its not invitational, I'm following the direction of the lead but not the timing, so am I embellishing or sabotaging?
Depends on what's led :wink:
Only a few leads actually lead the timeing of a turn* : most it's just raise the hand and expect the follower to turn. On these it's taking advantage of an invitation to turn.

{*only a few leads can lead the timeing of a turn}

Frankie_4711
31st-August-2006, 08:28 AM
~SNIP~ It would have been better if she could have managed something a lttle different each time. If someone is going to interrupt they should have something to say, and not repeat themselves. David B has it right. :mad:~SNIP~

Absolutely! I would never use the same sabotage move more than once in any one dance, or even on the same partner too often ... also because it's nice to keep the element of surprise!


as a relative beginner if a woman took control from me and sabotaged the move that I was suggesting she do It would probably throw me quite considerably.. and would probably end up doing the in and out or side to side until I could think of what to do next. or until the dance ended.. which ever came first (probably the latter.. I'm not a fast thinker when it comes to moves)

Exactly why I assess any unknown lead's ability before I try something like that ... any sign of beginnerishness, nervousness, intrepidation, intense concentration or anything else which suggests it may not be welcome and I won't (deliberately!) do something which may throw him ... save it for someone that is more likely to 'appreciate(?)' it :flower:

BTW - does not re-taking the lead's hand after a spin and doing a bit of wiggling/walking instead count as sabotage? Or is that just embellishing? :confused:

tsh
31st-August-2006, 08:37 AM
What are your views on Sabotage?

Leaders: Do you enjoy being sabotaged occasionally? Does it annoy you that you are no longer (albeit temporarily) in control? Does it put you off and ruin your train of thought/flow?


Leaders are never in control, it's just an illusion.

Sean

robd
31st-August-2006, 08:47 AM
Where's MsFab when you need her? :rolleyes:

Cruella
31st-August-2006, 09:13 AM
I occasionally sabotage, sometimes i get a smile, sometimes i get 'whose leading this dance':blush: Funnily enough though one of my sabotages ends up with the mans hands on my bum, only ever had smiles when i've done that one!:rolleyes: (and occasionally a shocked look on their face)

Beowulf
31st-August-2006, 09:48 AM
one of my sabotages ends up with the mans hands on my bum

:eek: No no no.. I would not like that.. that's a move that would cause my cerebellum to overheat and my legs to stop dancing while I stood there motionless on the dance floor trying to remember (a) what move I was doing next , (b) What it is I'm supposed to be doing anyway (c) Where I am (d) Who I am and (e) where I live.. not necessarily in that order !

added to that I would probably spontaneously combust from the embarrassment :blush:

Cruella
31st-August-2006, 09:51 AM
:eek: No no no.. I would not like that.. that's a move that would cause my cerebellum to overheat and my legs to stop dancing while I stood there motionless on the dance floor trying to remember (a) what move I was doing next , (b) What it is I'm supposed to be doing anyway (c) Where I am (d) Who I am and (e) where I live.. not necessarily in that order !

added to that I would probably spontaneously combust from the embarrassment :blush:

:rofl: Thats what happened to the last guy.

bigdjiver
31st-August-2006, 10:26 AM
...BTW - does not re-taking the lead's hand after a spin and doing a bit of wiggling/walking instead count as sabotage? Or is that just embellishing? :confused:I would consider that embelishment and perfectly acceptable, as would be multiple spins where I was expecting one.
My problem is that once the "I lead, she follows" paradigm is broken I tend to drop all ambitions and go into "vanilla" jive. It could be almost any guy in the room doing it. It is something I still need to work on.

straycat
31st-August-2006, 11:27 AM
I like it when the lady improvises or embellishes a lead. Sabotage is a bit different.
1st time :wink:
2nd time :really:
3rd time :sick:
4th time :angry:

Sounds intriguing - do you run a points system? So you maybe have a scorecard for each person you've danced with, and quickly check their 'sabotage points' total to date just before each new dance?

Is it like speeding points - so their 'sabotage' points get wiped after 12 or maybe months - and do you charge an admin fee for doing this?

Should we, in fact, consider the idea of a jiving license?

Just curious :whistle:

Lynn
31st-August-2006, 11:28 AM
Exactly why I assess any unknown lead's ability before I try something like that ... any sign of beginnerishness, nervousness, intrepidation, intense concentration or anything else which suggests it may not be welcome and I won't (deliberately!) do something which may throw him ... save it for someone that is more likely to 'appreciate(?)' it :flower:Yes, definitely. I do that too. Not just to see if they aren't used to it, but some leads don't like to relinquish control, even for a short time. If I sense that, I will follow obediently like a good girl.

timbp
31st-August-2006, 11:31 AM
"Sabotage" to me implies destruction, probably secretive.
"Hijiack" also implies taking control, with destruction if the leader doesn't agree.

I can see the metaphor -- the followers are changing (destroying) what the leader intended.
But both "sabotage" and "hijack" are destructive, where I hope the followers are trying to improve the dance, not destroy it.

I have had experiences where I would say the follower hijacked -- I intended something, she did something else, the dance still worked as we did something new to me.
I have had experiences where I would say the follower sabotaged -- I tried to lead one thing, she did something quite different, and the dance suffered.


and I have had dances where I have tried one thing, the follower has done something else, and the result was something neither of us expected, intended or predicted. They are the dances I live for.

Don't sabotage me, don't hijack me, complement me! and let me know how to complement you.

Tim

straycat
31st-August-2006, 11:38 AM
I've been trying to think about my own position on sabotage - I can't say honestly whether I really mind, or don't. I've had continually-sabotaged dances where I found it a bit wearing. I've had others where I just changed my manner of dancing - sometimes do as bigdjiver says and go into 'defensive' mode - but I've also had some amazing dances where I've simply worked on the basis that my partner might do anything, at any time, so simply to respond to and work off that. A great many of my dances with Rena, for example, have been like this, partly because I start a dance with her assuming that insane things will be happening, so I'm generally (not always) ready for it...

It can be highly exhiliarating to have a dance like this.

I think for a good sabotage dance, you need both parties to be actively involved in it - basically, you need the leader's willingness to go along with it, and preferrably for the leader to have some enthusiasm for it. If they don't seem happy with a sabotage, it's probably a good idea to think twice about doing it again in the same dance...

DavidB
31st-August-2006, 12:14 PM
Sounds intriguing - do you run a points system? So you maybe have a scorecard for each person you've danced with, and quickly check their 'sabotage points' total to date just before each new dance?It is just within a dance, not from one dance to another.

I have had dances where the lady sabotaged half the moves I led. I didn't see the point in me being there.

I only know one lady who regularly sabotages moves, but does it in a way I don't mind (Msfab). She has got the balance right, and knows what she is doing. And you can sabotage her sabotage.

jivecat
31st-August-2006, 12:18 PM
The other involved a tickle under the chin.Oh, yuck! Who did it to whom?

David Bailey
31st-August-2006, 12:41 PM
I have had dances where the lady sabotaged half the moves I led. I didn't see the point in me being there.
Oooh, flashback - I had one of those a couple of years ago. Yuk. I bet it was with the same woman...

I had a bit of a think about this earlier, and I guess the main reason I dislike sabotage is that it's a poor transfer of control - typically, the follower grabs control, does her thing with it, doesn't lead their partner, then stops and just expects the leader to pick up the pieces.

If a (man) leader behaved that way, it'd be seen as, at best, poor practice.

Having said that, if a follower can take the lead smoothly, at an appropriate time, then lead their partner through the move, then relinquish the lead smoothly, that's fine.

But, blimey, if a follower wants the lead that badly, why not just, well, be a leader?

Lee
31st-August-2006, 12:55 PM
Sabotage, like the idea. :clap: :clap:

It's like doing a drop with someone though, if you know them it's fine, if you don't know them well or don't dance with then much but the lady mentions it as a kinda challenge it's also ok. :waycool:

But not mentioning it at all is RUDE!!! :mad: by suddenly doing it so that stops a perfectly good dance, I can understand some ladies might use it to get out of close moves with guys they don't like but I recently experienced a lady just sticking her arm up in the air during a travelling return and just stopping, refusing to move. I was like ***. It actually looked like i initiate the move, someone said to me that it was really funny what you did then, I replied 'it wasn't me, it was her she just Fing stopped - twat'. :angry:

MS FAB is errr fab at Sabotage, I love dance with her when she does it. :respect:

Lee

robd
31st-August-2006, 01:07 PM
' it was her she just Fing stopped - twat'. :angry:



Nice attitude Lee

Lou
31st-August-2006, 01:20 PM
I plead guilty. But I'm not sorry.

I sabotaged a guy last week. :blush:

However, I do ask for mitigating circumstances to be taken into account.

I'd not danced with the chap before. He was a competent enough dancer, most likely a reasonably experienced intermediate, and we found ourself partnered up at the end of a class, going into freestyle. However, it was a tedious dance. One of those where you wonder if your partner really wants to be there. MJ by numbers. No eye contact. No smiles. No interpretation. Nothing.

I tried smiling. I tried a number of "look at me" tricks I have up my sleeve, that normally get a response. Nothing. So that just left me with the sabotage option. So I started with the turning an Octopus into a Man's Wrap thing. Bad idea. That met with an even more stony reception. So, being the evil creature that I am :innocent: I chucked a couple of other in, like a First Move block, and a couple of double spins. Nothing scary. He survived.

So, yes. It's a fair cop, guv. But at least I had some fun. :D

straycat
31st-August-2006, 02:30 PM
It is just within a dance, not from one dance to another.


OK - cool. So on the next dance, the follower has a completely clean slate, and you're back to :wink: again?
Do you count two consecutive tracks as one dance, or two? So she could get you to :really: or even :sick: on one track then start again with :wink: and maybe work her way all the way to :angry: :eek: :tears: :tears: :tears: by the end of the second, and still keep a clean slate the next day? Or would she have to have one track off in between to do that?



I have had dances where the lady sabotaged half the moves I led. I didn't see the point in me being there.

There's always a point. If you weren't there, she'd have to have sabotaged herself!
Seriously though, there is generally a way to recover some fun from a situation like that. Partner dance is basically a conversation - if she's constantly interrupting, you could always constantly interrupt back at unexpected moments, talk to just yourself for a while (ie dance alone and leave her to it), switch to a different language (or dance), switch to baby talk (simple moves at half-speed) - loads of options. Assuming you have the energy / inspiration to do it (sometimes my problem)




I only know one lady who regularly sabotages moves, but does it in a way I don't mind (Msfab). She has got the balance right, and knows what she is doing. And you can sabotage her sabotage.

Always fun :)

Lee
31st-August-2006, 04:57 PM
I plead guilty. But I'm not sorry.

I sabotaged a guy last week. :blush:

However, I do ask for mitigating circumstances to be taken into account.

I'd not danced with the chap before. He was a competent enough dancer, most likely a reasonably experienced intermediate, and we found ourself partnered up at the end of a class, going into freestyle. However, it was a tedious dance. One of those where you wonder if your partner really wants to be there. MJ by numbers. No eye contact. No smiles. No interpretation. Nothing.

I tried smiling. I tried a number of "look at me" tricks I have up my sleeve, that normally get a response. Nothing. So that just left me with the sabotage option. So I started with the turning an Octopus into a Man's Wrap thing. Bad idea. That met with an even more stony reception. So, being the evil creature that I am :innocent: I chucked a couple of other in, like a First Move block, and a couple of double spins. Nothing scary. He survived.

So, yes. It's a fair cop, guv. But at least I had some fun. :D

Don't get me wrong I think it's useful for a follower to be able to Sabotage well, I just think it should not be done as a rude statement.

Personally it's better done as a challenge to the leader to counter the Sabotage, not just done to make a point about a lack of connection.

I also disapprove of Sabotage when it's done in a dangerous manner, especially when the dance floor is packed and the leader is making such an effort to keep his partner from harm.

We need some London based workshops on this I feel (as the Scots are already good at it).

Lee

David Bailey
31st-August-2006, 05:19 PM
Don't get me wrong I think it's useful for a follower to be able to Sabotage well, I just think it should not be done as a rude statement.
Surely it's rude by definition to wrest control without permission? :confused:

straycat
31st-August-2006, 05:28 PM
Surely it's rude by definition to wrest control without permission? :confused:

Permission? In partner dance? Have we jumped back to the dark ages or something while I wasn't looking?

David Bailey
31st-August-2006, 05:34 PM
Permission?
Yes.


In partner dance?
Precisely in partner dance.


Have we jumped back to the dark ages or something while I wasn't looking?
Possibly.

But, and correct me if I'm being silly, a partner dance has to have a leader and a follower, you can't decide how to dance by committee. If the follower wants to lead, the follower should ask (not verbally, obviously, I mean by indication) to have control passed over.

The leader and the follower then swap roles, but still have the responsibilities of the role. So the leader should aim to lead well, and the follower should aim to follow well.

If dance is a conversation, then sabotage is like heckling a speech. Sometimes it's necessary to relieve the boredom I guess, but mostly it's just rude.

bigdjiver
31st-August-2006, 05:38 PM
Oh, yuck! Who did it to whom?She did it to me.:awe: :grin: :yum:

Alas, she took the lead in our next dance when I was not expecting it ... :eek: :tears: :sad: :blush: You have to know your partner very well before trying such things.

MartinHarper
31st-August-2006, 05:56 PM
In situations where both lead and follow is light, I can see no problem.

I don't see how you can sabotage lightly. If I'm leading, and my partner applies a light force to me, I'll just match that pressure. So it pretty much has to be a significant force. When I get successfully sabotaged, the forces involved are greater than those involved in regular leading.


Leaders: Do you enjoy being sabotaged occasionally? Does it annoy you that you are no longer (albeit temporarily) in control? Does it put you off and ruin your train of thought/flow?

Done well, yes, in moderation; Done badly, eww. A good description of sone badly from DavidJames: "the follower grabs control, does her thing with it, doesn't lead their partner, then stops and just expects the leader to pick up the pieces".

An example of it being done well: I was leading some move, and my partner applied force to my hips to indicate that I should spin. This force was applied as if it was a perfect lead: there was a good pre-lead, a clear indication of direction and speed, nice follow-through, smoothness, clarity, the correct amount of power, etc. Upon completing the spin, I found my partner's right hand in my left, my partner mid-way through her rock-step, with the perfect amount of time for me to easily resume leading.

Loss of control annoying: Of course not.

Doesn't really mess with my train of thought, because I rarely plan my dancing in advance. Sabotage is no different conceptually from any other reason we might not end up in the position I was going for, such as bad leading.


Followers: Do you ever use sabotage? If not, why not? Would you if you knew more about it/knew more moves etc?

No, because backleading/anticipating is a fairly universal disease amongst male followers, and I have it too, and it'd be crazy to make that worse by deliberately sabotaging. I don't expect to ever be a good enough follow to make it sensible to learn to sabotage.

Msfab
31st-August-2006, 06:00 PM
Where's MsFab when you need her? :rolleyes:
Im supposed to be working!:rolleyes: And then started reading that new WCS thread!


I only know one lady who regularly sabotages moves, but does it in a way I don't mind (Msfab). She has got the balance right, and knows what she is doing. And you can sabotage her sabotage.

MS FAB is errr fab at Sabotage, I love dance with her when she does it. :respect:
Thanks :hug:
You might find this hard to believe, but I dont go looking to hijack every single move/pattern a lead invites me to follow!:innocent: When I have gone looking for a way to purposefully sabotage the lead I usually mess up!
If there is connection between the 2 of us things just happen. When I mean happen its usually we continue on the intended path because the connection hasnt been broken. I dont (well not that im aware) actually initiate a lead/move on the leader - something unrelated to the intended move/pattern. I have of late been offering and sometimes swapping for the right (not knowingly) my left hand. Its been suggested that this maybe because I have started leading - but id been doing this before I ever learnt to lead.:confused:
I know some leads dont like having their flow interrupted and so respect that. Some dont mind and see it as a challenge:clap:. Its as much a challenge for the lead as it is for me.

Yes its very important that both parties know where they are within a dance - Connection!

MartinHarper
31st-August-2006, 06:58 PM
It's like doing a drop with someone though, if you know them it's fine, if you don't know them well or don't dance with then much but the lady mentions it as a kinda challenge it's also ok. :waycool:
But not mentioning it at all is RUDE!

Sabotage moves are typically safer than drop moves, and there's no issue with bad backs and suchlike (unless it's a sabotage drop move, but who does those in freestyle?).

Ghost
31st-August-2006, 07:07 PM
Two words -
Tazmanian Devil
:devil: :worthy: :hug: :flower: :respect: :rofl:

Dance in beauty,
Christopher

Lou
31st-August-2006, 09:28 PM
Done well, yes, in moderation; Done badly, eww..
I remember you moaning that I didn't sabotage enough. :wink:

Lee
31st-August-2006, 11:11 PM
Two words -
Tazmanian Devil
:devil: :worthy: :hug: :flower: :respect: :rofl:

Dance in beauty,
Christopher

She pinched my bum!!! :blush:

:wink:

Lee

straycat
1st-September-2006, 08:25 AM
She pinched my bum!!! :blush:

Just make sure she remembers to give it back when she's finished with it...

straycat
1st-September-2006, 10:02 AM
But, and correct me if I'm being silly, a partner dance has to have a leader and a follower, you can't decide how to dance by committee. If the follower wants to lead, the follower should ask (not verbally, obviously, I mean by indication) to have control passed over.
The leader and the follower then swap roles, but still have the responsibilities of the role. So the leader should aim to lead well, and the follower should aim to follow well.

Yes.... but to me, the leader is more of a guide or director than a leader. So - I don't see sabotage as 'taking control' of the dance, so much as a more pro-active contribution to the conversation. It's a sharing of control, if you like, rather than a cut-and-dried "I lead now. Now you lead. Now I lead" situation.


If dance is a conversation, then sabotage is like heckling a speech. Sometimes it's necessary to relieve the boredom I guess, but mostly it's just rude.

Hmmm - not really - a conversation isn't a speech. I think what we're probably both getting at, from different directions, is that a bad sabotage would be one party interrupting the other in the middle of an important sentence. Where as a skillfull-executed one is a reply that changes the flow, and maybe the subject of the conversation without disrupting it.

David Bailey
1st-September-2006, 10:30 AM
Yes.... but to me, the leader is more of a guide or director than a leader. So - I don't see sabotage as 'taking control' of the dance, so much as a more pro-active contribution to the conversation. It's a sharing of control, if you like, rather than a cut-and-dried "I lead now. Now you lead. Now I lead" situation.
I'm not really sure how that would work - but I suppose anything's possible.


Where as a skillfull-executed one is a reply that changes the flow, and maybe the subject of the conversation without disrupting it.
Hmmm... in that case, is it still "sabotage"?

straycat
1st-September-2006, 10:40 AM
I'm not really sure how that would work - but I suppose anything's possible.

Let's dance, you and I :waycool:




Hmmm... in that case, is it still "sabotage"?

Maybe that's it - what to one leader is sabotage is, to another, an inspiring interplay with their partner...

Tazmanian Devil
1st-September-2006, 12:58 PM
I plead guilty. But I'm not sorry.
:yeah:
Ok so I have only just been diverted to this thread :blush: I really enjoy Sabbotage or Hijacking what ever you want to call it. Most guys/Ladies I have Sabbotage dances with also enjoy it. I have had guys ask me for sabbotage dances even Mr esterman :wink:

I do admit to sabbotaging when a guy is least expecting it, but at the same time if the guy doesn't enjoy it I wont do it again :flower:


Two words -
Tazmanian Devil
:devil: :worthy: :hug: :flower: :respect: :rofl:
:innocent:

She pinched my bum!!! :blush:

:wink:
:innocent: :innocent:

Just make sure she remembers to give it back when she's finished with it...
:rofl: :rofl: Might not you know it's not a bad bum :rofl: :rofl:

Maybe that's it - what to one leader is sabotage is, to another, an inspiring interplay with their partner...
:yeah:
There are certain people that give really great sabbotage dances which yes is very inspiring, to name just one, Tessalicious :worthy: :worthy: Our very first dance together was a sabbotage dance and what a fantastic one it was too :worthy: :worthy:

Ghost
1st-September-2006, 02:11 PM
There are certain people that give really great sabbotage dances which yes is very inspiring, to name just one, Tessalicious :worthy: :worthy: Our very first dance together was a sabbotage dance and what a fantastic one it was too :worthy: :worthy:
:yeah:
Just curious - 'cos I was tempted to do this recently....

Has anyone done sabotage during double trouble?

Be Well,
Christopher

Tazmanian Devil
1st-September-2006, 02:15 PM
:yeah:
Just curious - 'cos I was tempted to do this recently....

Has anyone done sabotage during double trouble?

Be Well,
Christopher

Yes

This is just as much fun.....

Monday on the boat sprins to mind :D I was leading Wayaay and Jammy then Jammy sabbotaged me, Not for too long though :devil:

Icey
1st-September-2006, 06:47 PM
I occasionally sabotage, sometimes i get a smile, sometimes i get 'whose leading this dance':blush: Funnily enough though one of my sabotages ends up with the mans hands on my bum, only ever had smiles when i've done that one!:rolleyes: (and occasionally a shocked look on their face)

Ohh, will you share next time I see you? I could have some fun with a certain person with this :innocent:

Cruella
2nd-September-2006, 07:37 PM
Ohh, will you share next time I see you? I could have some fun with a certain person with this :innocent:

No problem. :wink:

MartinHarper
6th-September-2006, 05:30 PM
Random couple of sabotage videos. Lindy, I'm afraid, but both hijacks of common movements in MJ.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4913864239854944442 (Xena Warrior Princess, I kid ye not)
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7338102628788033611 (some spinny thing)

Personally I prefer the Xena move, though I do feel that it should never be used without appropriate sound effects. The spinny thing looks like it's kinder to the guy, because he doesn't have to move, but it's probably not. The danger of lemon impersonation beckons.

Cruella
6th-September-2006, 05:35 PM
Random couple of sabotage videos. Lindy, I'm afraid, but both hijacks of common movements in MJ.
.

Oooh, like the second one with the leg block. Wear your shinpads guys!

Msfab
6th-September-2006, 05:57 PM
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4913864239854944442 (Xena Warrior Princess, I kid ye not)
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7338102628788033611 (some spinny thing)

I already do the Xena hijack :clap: Not sure what I do it off though!:rolleyes:

There is a hijack in the second vid at the very end which looks very interesting!:whistle: Will have a go at working that one out to end up in a first move position. I do like his explanation of when do to hijacks.

I had a rethink there is one hijack move I do deliberatly when I feel the music calls for it:innocent:. From a basket - I duck from the basket position to end up going backwards from the lead.

horsey_dude
11th-September-2006, 11:06 AM
Sometimes ladies have to defend themselves. I taught a sabotage to the "basket frisk" to one woman and she has been using it for several years and chuckles evilly every time she tells me about using it........

HD.